I think that we're going to be able to pick up a lot of least and lesser powers with basic actions while we're on the train ride from hell, is the thing. I don't think that picking up extra powers from this is gonna change our mid-term trajectory that much.

I respectfully disagree, for a start more powers options are significantly better the earlier they are taken over discipline and education trait boosts because of the way those interact with and build on what is already there.

More than that we've seen no evidence that Mirande is just going to be able to shit out new powers willy nilly. The only time she's had that kind of jump in ability is from a critical set of rolls when she's in deep deep shit.

She's not going to spontaneously learn a least power on the train ride with out a similar set of circumstances which can best be described as a shit show.

We made a clean getaway from the frying pan. We just have to make sure we're no longer on fire.

On which powers might help, Fortune and Advanced Fortune.

I think if we have enough potential power advancements to gain fortune or advanced fortune we'd be better off dumping into ensuring we get lesser mind edit and either psychic shriek or uplink.


Any way to reiterate Mirandes biggest problem is that inspite of having massive willpower and a high psyker education she hasn't grown into it organically so she's missing out on an enormous number of powers that a psyker of her ability level would typically have.

To use an analogy.

She's like a super computer with absolutely top spec hardware that can crunch numbers like nobodies business the problem is she's missing all the software to make use of it.

She needs that software so the computational power she has can be put to use.
 
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Also, INB4 @Academia Nut already decided to make him gay to troll us all. :D
What other purpose would we really even have for mind edit? I want to see the kids these two make, dammit. Greater Fortune on that guy, too... but it only gave +50, which means his willpower is 25. That's not bad for a mostly untrained psyker who probably has no overwhelming traits to his name, really. He's got some good... stones... on him.
 
I have not. :(

Also, INB4 @Academia Nut already decided to make him gay to troll us all. :D

Gay is fine. All that matters is he's fertile :evil:
[X] More powers

This or telepathy, we need to be able to tell the new psyker to take us to our train and the medical car and it doesn't look like we're capable of speaking. Given our serious lack of powers more of them is just as good a long term investment as contribution towards the education trait.

I'm fine with people like SSS arguing that the powers are a better investment overall in the mid-term, but I think that going for them just so we can resolve the scene that we've already more-or-less won is kind of bad and short-sighted. Even if I agreed with your vote, I wouldn't agree with this logic for selecting it.

As to more powers being as good in the long-term as the education trait? I'm strongly inclined to disagree there. We have literally no idea of what it will take to integrate the rest of the knowledge from the Greater Daemon, and everything about this situation from the successful fate manipulation to winning by rolling 99 (Tzeentch's number) screams that our latent knowledge is somehow related. That's where our insight here is originating (or at very least the two are strongly linked in some way). I don't think it's wise to overlook this kind of relationship here. Even if the dice fell that way by pure luck, the way AN writes things it retroactively becomes a causal in-universe link of some sort. Just like rolling 99 to integrate the Lord of Change in the first place got us amazing results.
 
Our hero seems to have 20 willpower without any psyker education. I hope he is around 16 years old, so we can be his guardian for a few years and get him up to primaris without spending personal actions, but close enough in age that it's only slightly Hikaru Genji-ish if we marry later.
 
I'm fine with people like SSS arguing that the powers are a better investment overall in the mid-term, but I think that going for them just so we can resolve the scene that we've already more-or-less won is kind of bad and short-sighted. Even if I agreed with your vote, I wouldn't agree with this logic for selecting it.
Being useful in the short term in addition to the long term counts against an option now?
As to more powers being as good in the long-term as the education trait? I'm strongly inclined to disagree there. We have literally no idea of what it will take to integrate the rest of the knowledge from the Greater Daemon, and everything about this situation from the successful fate manipulation to winning by rolling 99 (Tzeentch's number) screams that our latent knowledge is somehow related. That's where our insight here is originating (or at very least the two are strongly linked in some way). I don't think it's wise to overlook this kind of relationship here. Even if the dice fell that way by pure luck, the way AN writes things it retroactively becomes a causal in-universe link of some sort. Just like rolling 99 to integrate the Lord of Change in the first place got us amazing results.
We are going to invest actions in powers and also in advancing our education trait in the future. Investing in powers now means we need a few action less for powers, investing in education a few actions less for that. Long term it's a wash except for compound effects, which are in favor of powers now since we get an immediate benefit.
What other purpose would we really even have for mind edit? I want to see the kids these two make, dammit. Greater Fortune on that guy, too... but it only gave +50, which means his willpower is 25. That's not bad for a mostly untrained psyker who probably has no overwhelming traits to his name, really. He's got some good... stones... on him.
Greater fortune means *2.5 if the pattern holds and his willpower bonus is 40=2x20 so his willpower is almost certainly 20. Still pretty good without psyker education. Should be possible to get up to the mid 30es with some investment.
 
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I respectfully disagree, for a start more powers options are significantly better the earlier they are taken over discipline and education trait boosts because of the way those interact with and build on what is already there.

I don't think I really understand the system well enough to understand how this part works. Can you explain?

To use an analogy.

She's like a super computer with absolutely top spec hardware that can crunch numbers like nobodies business the problem is she's missing all the software to make use of it.

She needs that software so the computational power she has can be put to use.

See this is true. But I feel like the opportunity to upgrade the hardware here is more difficult to replicate, whereas there'll be time to learn more powers just through focusing on our training with actions. If I'm misunderstanding that, please let me know.

I'm also really afraid of missing out on a truly unique opportunity, because our insane crits (fuelled by numerology), the fact that it was fate manipulation, the fact that our virtual knowledge if left unharnessed may become a potential liability as @Powerofmind pointed out... it all seems to line up with the same sort of perfection as our lucky rolls to absorb the Daemon in the first place. I feel like it could lead to unforseen positive outcomes beyond just an education levelup. New insight into the way the warp and probability and things work in general (Especially since our core discipline is Divination).

It would also make me feel a lot better if we knew what the new guy could do. If he winds up coming with us he may be able to cover a lot of the gaps in our knowledge, which (like using actions on training during our very long journey) might render More Powers partially obsolete.
 

Please choose more powers instead of telepathy II

Telepathy II would at most give us Mind reading at tier 3 and is basically equivalent to a single extra power.

It's the only telepathic power we would have and so the manifestiation bonus from Telepathy II would be marginal.

More powers allows us to gain two or more powers from the telepathy discipline meaning Mirandes already VERY high education level can be leveraged across a wider spectrum.

Remember the formula for manifesting powers is

D100 + Willpowerx2 + ((Education trait level +Discipline level + Warp conduit level)/2)

Increasing telepathy to level 2 gives a bonus of five points on the manifestation roll and allows for Mirande to gain Mind reading. Getting more powers would mean Mirande will have a much broader set of abilities to throw that manifestation bonus behind.

I don't think I really understand the system well enough to understand how this part works. Can you explain?

It ties into a couple of things. Mainly the way powers are gained as part of training actions or through discipline power boosts and through what the education trait and discipline traits actually do.

Say Mirande wants to boost Mind edit to tier 3

Mirande has a lot of routes she could take to achieve this.

The different methods are

Invest in the discipline directly, with telepathy that grants you a single power boost you can put any where and the level of the power being boosted is irrelevant.

Invest training actions to learn a power and then boost them over time that way. We know from earlier on that powers seem to double in time needed at every level so gaining powers by this is most efficient early on so that you can use the discipline direct boosts later.

With the training actions the costs are roughly as follows

Least - 100
Lesser - 200
Normal - 400
Greater - 800
Advanced -1600

That means grabbing more powers earlier on allows you to use discipline dumps to improve powers that would otherwise be vastly more expensive.

As an example imagine we take more powers here and we get 400 points of powers to distribute. Assume Mirande does the following

Mind edit to Lesser
Uplink to Least

If mirande then gains Telepathy II in the future and we would have otherwise put that into say mind edit doing so after investing in more powers means that you can get a 400 point cost boost in power for what would have been worth 100 points before hand.

Now obviously you can mix and match how you boost your power sets but the most optimal method is to boost your powers with actions first and then with discipline improvements later.

The education trait muddles things up a little.

Education trait bonus works as follows

Another +3 willpower another discipline level that can go anywhere and some ancillary stat bonuses to the other stat lines.

The education trait also builds on what is already there. Say we were going to put the discipline level into Telepathy.

Well training Telepathy to level 1 required 200 points and I think again the scheme follows a rough doubling.

Telepathy I - 200
Telepathy II - 400
Telepathy III - 800
Telepathy IV - 1600
Telepathy V - 3200

This again means it's strictly more optimal to use training actions early on to boost your discipline levels to higher levels before jumping on the education trait level which will allow you to boost an existing discipline regardless of what level it's currently at.

We're almost certainly going to be putting the free discipline level from the education trait into Divination because of how it acts as a cap on the other discipline levels but it's strictly more optimal to push the powers and then the discipline levels because of the way everything builds on its self.
 
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I think if we have enough potential power advancements to gain fortune or advanced fortune we'd be better off dumping into ensuring we get lesser mind edit and either psychic shriek or uplink.

Hmm. Ekans Ekans Ekans might have a point that the guy whose in control of the train might be effectively immune to such powers thanks to the mirror effect.

Advanced Fortune giving us +100 on critical roles would be very handy under most circumstances.
 
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Hmm. Ekans Ekans Ekans might have a point that the guy whose in control of the train might be effectively immune to such powers thanks to the mirror effect.

Advanced Fortune giving us +100 on critical roles would be very handy under.

I'm actually not sure if the mirror effect is ongoing or just temporary from that particular encounter. Not enough information. We can't rule it out, though.
 
[X] Invest in improved Education trait.

edit: And yes, I read the discussion.

Significant progress means that it would at a minimum take many (probably more than 5) to achieve, normally, without this boost.

We don't need more powers. This quest was possible without them, we started it without them, and we are only getting this option because of a massive crit.​
 
Just as a side note, Greater Fortune, which seems to be what we did by pushing, seems to add +Willpower to all rolls in a scene.
 
edit: And yes, I read the discussion.

Significant progress means that it would at a minimum take many (probably more than 5) to achieve, normally, without this boost.

We don't need more powers. This quest was possible without them, we started it without them, and we are only getting this option because of a massive crit.​

We didn't start the quest stripped of all our equipment, logistical support, and companions while unconscious and relying on a stranger's mercy.

More powers might be exceptionally useful to change that.
 
Significant progress means that it would at a minimum take many (probably more than 5) to achieve, normally, without this boost.

We don't need more powers. This quest was possible without them, we started it without them, and we are only getting this option because of a massive crit.​

We don't need a greater education trait either so what does that matter? The point isn't what is absolutely needed it's what is optimal in terms of effects. Grabbing more powers now has the best chance of pushing things towards more optimal solutions. It allows us to capitalize on many more situations and devise more solutions to situations we come across.

Opportunity cost is a real thing and lumping in for the long term choice means we miss out on possible solutions and rewards because we don't have those powers.

In the same way that precognition allows mirande to do things she otherwise wouldn't be able to so would Mind edit and uplink. I also reject the reasoning that because something is possible it means it's inevitable.
 
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@SuperSonicSound I understand what you're getting at now (Good thing I was refreshing. Editing a reply into your earlier message didn't give me an alert o_O)

I do agree that it's better to build things powers->Disciplines->Education (Although in this case we already have Divination at VI and it's where the Education disc levelup will go anyway)... but we're not going to hit Grandmaster right away from this. We can invest our training into powers as we see fit before we complete our education level. Moreover, I'm starting to strongly suspect that it'd involve just as much time and more risk to advance our education the same amount. This is the first time we've even seen an option to advance our education in this way. I'm just having a really hard time passing on it simply due to the fact that all the other options are things we know how to replicate.

And if we assume that amount of effective actions we'd be getting out of this free level-up is the same for both Powers and Education... well, I agree that Discipline level is the wrong way to go for sure. But Powers are a certain path that we know how to follow, whereas Education is an uncertain path that we may or may not be able to follow at will. Also: At this point I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but the update's themes and numerology really point at the Daemon's unintegrated knowledge being somehow related to what happened, and our really needing to get a complete handle on it.
 
What dark heresy 1st edition core rule book says about psyhcic mirror

39-46

pshycic mirror - the psykers power is turned upon him resolves the power's effects as normal but the power targets the psyker instead should the power be of benefit is instead takes 1d10 + 5 energy damage to the psyker and the beneficial effect is canceled armour offers no protection to this damage.
 
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