Would you Distort or manifest EGO?


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The series of clicks and twitches released by the girl's new form in lieu of words sounded like nonsense to her. It was really weird that Argalia could talk but she couldn't, despite neither of them having mouths.

Is Argalia friend with a witch? Well then, that would be good news if so, means that he can help them be a little more controlled. Also, seems like Argalia still is in his super distortion mode, with a flame for a head.

With a theatrical flair, the man shifted the girl into his off-hand and flicked his scythe up into his grip with a swift kick

So the girl is small enough to be carried in his hand, really curious on what they look like now.

The new director…

The girl wondered what sort of person they would be. Argalia seemed almost reverent of them, only matched by the way he spoke to the voice or the time he'd mentioned his sister. Would she be like them? Would she be more like the Wizard? Or something different altogether?

Only time would tell.

Well girl, I have some good news: If Argalia act like that in a meeting with us? We are quite likely to accept him, as long as the guy doesn't begin preaching his old beliefs again I am fine with how he's right now.

If he ask people to be more true to themselves without the madness of *and that means they should all become chaotic manifested knots of neuroses*, I can agree. If he begins telling Mami (or any other of our girl) she should distort, we are going to have a problem, we might forgive him if he agree to let it lie and accept their decisions, but he would be on thin ice.

Who's the new director?
X, I presume? At least Argalia has spoken of her with similar reverence before.

Argalia's sidestory was pretty clear on X being the new director, yes, here are the references:
Even locked in the Emerald City, separated from the real world, he had heard her overture. A brilliant concert, a march to war against the mundane, restricted world. For one so attuned as the man, no barrier could prevent him from listening to a performance so beautiful.
To meet the maker of the new world, who had already begun to free the poor lost souls of humanity from their shackles of convention.

Given our ability to supplant reality with our facility, he clearly is talking about us there, so it's clear the new director he's talking about and searching for is us.
 
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Also this guy making friends with Witches? That's weird.
His last group of friends included:
a depressed man made of wax who one of the others mindbroke
A cult leader who turned people, including her father, into gears that they attached to themselves
A Cannibal Chef shark person
An amalgamation of three people who look like they're hotline Miami characters and took the idea of "one man band" way too far
A fucking Clown who mindbreaks people
A furry who punches people really really hard
A dude with, as kailll put it, a d20 for a head who makes puppets out of people
A vampire who other vampires are like "yeah no she's batshit crazy"
A simp who also happens to look and act like the literal devil with magical contracts with catches


Witches are downright mundane compared to the weirdos of the Blue Hobos.
 
Well girl, I have some good news: If Argalia act like that in a meeting with us? We are quite likely to accept him, as long as the guy doesn't begin preaching his old beliefs again I am fine with how he's right now.
I suspect his core beliefs have not changed. To my knowledge there has been nothing to dissuade him from his original goal. He's treating this as a third chance, exchanging the Library for DoSaM. What will he do when he realizes X is intentionally burying it within a shell?

The girl wondered what sort of person they would be. Argalia seemed almost reverent of them, only matched by the way he spoke to the voice or the time he'd mentioned his sister. Would she be like them? Would she be more like the Wizard? Or something different altogether?
Have we confirmed the girl is a witch? The scenery shifting implies it, but it seems like a power distortions could also possess. If she is a witch, I am interested in how she has coherent thought. It could be common to witches in this quest, or something similar to what Argalia did to make distortions coherent and recruit them.

Also, it seems Carmen has talked to Argalia since his arrival. Curious.

Edit: Change use of "conscious" to "coherent" to be closer to what I mean
 
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I suspect his core beliefs have not changed. To my knowledge there has been nothing to dissuade him from his original goal. He's treating this as a third chance, exchanging the Library for DoSaM. What will he do when he realizes X is intentionally burying it within a shell?

As I said, if he manage to actually show he changed, and his two loss against the library could have catalyzed a change, then I can accept him, hope for the best, and we are already preparing for the worst via our solidifying our girls minds anyway.

Edit:

If she is a witch, I am interested in how she has conscious thought

I remember a snippet from Ghoul King where he had a pmmm where Madoka made Kyubey change his system to have witches collaborate with Magical girls, and he had part of it from a witch point of view, when someone told that the witch seemed stupid, he got on a rant about how humans are bad at recognizing any form of intelligence that aren't theirs, and tends to call any deviation *stupid* even when they make perfect sense.

The point is, you can have witches be conscious and able to make decisions without changing anything about Pmmm, in fact, what little we see of witches' mindset from the inside implies that it is the case, it's just that the level of grief they're under plus the psychological changes from becoming basically a new type of existence makes our little human brains go: *These aren't sapient! Only humans are sapient! They dont think like us so they're not!*, when in fact they are.

I personally believe that Sapience being a human trait is just narcissism from our species and that it is way more widespread than some think, so I agree with that reasoning.
 
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Agree.
Every single creature on this earth has thought process. Intelligence is just advanced thought process, If a creature is able to fight, As long as you give it enough time, this creature will become Intelligent.
And what we proceed as reasons for thinking might not mean anything to other species.
Stupidity comes from the lack of thought process, and different thought process does not equal stupidity, It just means that you have different goals in mind and do something else different from human to achieve those goals.
What is proceed as stupidity or brutality to humans might very well be some tradition, some act of self enjoyment or something else entirely, able to communicate with each other doesn't mean you can understand each other. It just means you have a way to throw insult at one another. And not every single creature in this universe will have self preservation or greed or connections with one another as their first goal, chances are just too miniscule.
And let's not forget these witches are at some point human, with some button pushing, and some careful words, why can't our resident crazy blue man drag a consciousness out of them? He done it before to a maddend philip who is just killing everyone In his sight.(At least I think so)
This man can see horror that cannot be proceed by human as beauty. I don't think witches are something that bad for him.
 
I personally believe that Sapience being a human trait is just narcissism from our species and that it is way more widespread than some think, so I agree with that reasoning.

This is quite natural for a criterion that should mainly determine why human behaviour is so different from the behaviour of all other living beings.
I will not bore you with detailed explanations or some differences in views in different philosophical schools, but the main criteria for reasonableness is the ability to think logically and the ability to analyze information in order to find the truth, as well as the ability to change one's behaviour due to this.

And it should be noted that Isabeau was the only one who could be called a reasonable witch, and this is only because of Wish. All other witches show only instinctive behaviour, including Latria and Walpurgisnacht, although the latter's instincts can be quite complex. Some descriptions of witches imply that they are actually sentient, and have simply become so mired in Grief that they only react to the rest of the world in the form of instincts. In this case, their reasonableness is still irrelevant from a practical point of view.

Though if Argalia was actually talking to a witch, and not just another Distortion as I originally thought, there's a chance that his ability actually causes witches to perceive the world around them intellectually instead of just being in their own Grief. This could become quite useful for our own de-witchification project.
 
The blue reverberation resonated with a creature that is born from a distortion of human mind.
how familiar sounding is that.
His thing is he resonate with people, monster and distortions, It's only natural that he did it with a witch too.
the man is able to set his mind in tune with the monsters, he did so to get all the original members of his team, that's why he is disgusted by those imitation because those only mimicked the shell and not the tune, Hollow shells that only goes skin deep a crappy imitation of the music his friends produces.
And this is the reason why he can connect with a Witch and talks with it, No matter how twisted the shell and exterior are, there is still something beneath that, under all the grief there is a consciousness in there, so he is able to in tune with it, even if there's only grief, there is a source for that grief, even if there is no source, you can talk with the grief itself because grief is still an emotion.
he is so utterly insane, he is the only one who can understand those who are twisted.
 
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This is quite natural for a criterion that should mainly determine why human behaviour is so different from the behaviour of all other living beings.
I will not bore you with detailed explanations or some differences in views in different philosophical schools, but the main criteria for reasonableness is the ability to think logically and the ability to analyze information in order to find the truth, as well as the ability to change one's behaviour due to this.

Our behavior is not that different from other animals, Ants and Termites have megacities and ants have agriculture, quite a lot of animals have tool usage, and not just primates, by the way.

When it has been demonstrated that an ant alone before a problem is perfectly able to change its approach till it find a way to remove it, you can begin to scrutinize our so called *specialness* and realize it's just a bunch of hot air getting to our head.

Just look at the name we gave our species *Homo Sapiens Sapiens* *The wisest of the wise*, if that doesn't feel like narcissistic compensation to you, it absolutely does to me.

And it should be noted that Isabeau was the only one who could be called a reasonable witch, and this is only because of Wish. All other witches show only instinctive behaviour, including Latria and Walpurgisnacht, although the latter's instincts can be quite complex. Some descriptions of witches imply that they are actually sentient, and have simply become so mired in Grief that they only react to the rest of the world in the form of instincts. In this case, their reasonableness is still irrelevant from a practical point of view.

Look back at the citation I gave, particularly that part (Sorry Ghoul king, citing you for discussions purposes, feel free to ignore the post):
That said, humans have a habit of interpreting alien intelligence as stupidity. It's easy to look at an animal struggling with something that's "simple" and "basic" to humans and go "Wow, not bright" and it's much harder to notice when an animal effortlessly resolves some challenge humans are not remotely suited to handling. (Exacerbated by the human tendency to dismiss animal intelligence as "it's just instincts" or the like when they do notice an animal being clever)

Citing anything as *it's just instincts!* is stupid, it's missing the actual intelligence present in favor of *human specialness*.

We are animals, normal animals, we are not special, we are not superior, we are not the only sapient beings, we can be just as *stupid* as the animals we treat as stupid.

And there are proofs of witches being intelligent outside Isabeau, we have Cecil, who can communicate, we have Kirika's witch who still protected Oriko, we have Homura's transformation in Rebellion, where the end implies very strongly that she isn't any less intelligent but just unable to see the world correctly instead, which really doesn't help in seeing if any witch is intelligent, since they all would suffer from that, meaning that observations from the outside are not very conclusive on what they are reacting to.
 
And this is the reason why he can connect with a Witch and talks with it, No matter how twisted the shell and exterior are, there is still something beneath that, under all the grief there is a consciousness in there, so he is able to in tune with it, even if there's only grief, there is a source for that grief, even if there is no source, you can talk with the grief itself because grief is still an emotion.
he is so utterly insane, he is the only one who can understand those who are twisted.

Even if he can communicate with a witch, that doesn't mean she will do anything about it. In this case, it's not the connection that's surprising, but the fact that he was able to convince the witch to do something. This is a big thing.

Our behavior is not that different from other animals, Ants and Termites have megacities and ants have agriculture, quite a lot of animals have tool usage, and not just primates, by the way.

When it has been demonstrated that an ant alone before a problem is perfectly able to change its approach till it find a way to remove it, you can begin to scrutinize our so called *specialness* and realize it's just a bunch of hot air getting to our head.

Just look at the name we gave our species *Homo Sapiens Sapiens* *The wisest of the wise*, if that doesn't feel like narcissistic compensation to you, it absolutely does to me.

I will not discuss the shortcomings of various formulations of the definition of reasonableness. I just want to point out that since every human language and its word definitions have been created for human use, any idea built using it will be human-centred. This, and there are reasons why people ended up where they were, and their place was not taken by ants or primates.

In any case, this discussion is not really related to the story, so it's better to stop here.

Citing anything as *it's just instincts!* is stupid, it's missing the actual intelligence present in favor of *human specialness*.

We are animals, normal animals, we are not special, we are not superior, we are not the only sapient beings, we can be just as *stupid* as the animals we treat as stupid.

And there are proofs of witches being intelligent outside Isabeau, we have Cecil, who can communicate, we have Kirika's witch who still protected Oriko, we have Homura's transformation in Rebellion, where the end implies very strongly that she isn't any less intelligent but just unable to see the world correctly instead, which really doesn't help in seeing if any witch is intelligent, since they all would suffer from that, meaning that observations from the outside are not very conclusive on what they are reacting to.

Instincts are certain reactions to certain events and states that do not require study and analysis.
Latria, Kirika's witch, simply continues to act according to her Wish, and it is implied that this is not even conscious.
Cecil's example is curious, but more like imitation than actual thought processes, much like a predator imitating the voice of a prey species to ambush.

Of course, we do not have enough understanding of the thought processes of witches to draw a definitive conclusion, but empirical observations are more than enough for practical conclusions.
 
Cecil's example is curious, but more like imitation than actual thought processes, much like a predator imitating the voice of a prey species to ambush.

...
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Look at my signature, the part about the Chinese room problem, it's not one to one but it does have some similarities.

You're telling *this witch clearly shows intelligent behavior but it cannot be intelligent behavior because it's a witch and they don't have intelligent behavior, only instincts*, I already covered what I thought of that kind of reasoning when I cited Ghoul King on humanity tendencies to cry *no, we are special, it's just instincts when it's others!* and your reasoning there is pretty much that.

Of course, we do not have enough understanding of the thought processes of witches to draw a definitive conclusion, but empirical observations are more than enough for practical conclusions.

When it comes to observation of intelligent behaviors of non human species, most of our species' reasoning is so biased that I would take any conclusion with several tons of salts if they use any expression like *instincts*, *non sapient*, *imitating without understanding* and all other ways to try and think that we are superior in our *wiseness*, this is viable there too, especially since we know for a fact that Witches don't perceive the world as we do, making these *observations* even more dubious, worse still when the behaviors we see are very strongly biased into being only the reactions to having their main predator in front of them trying to kill them.
 
I believe there was an SCP with a similar premise? It's a personal favorite of mine.
 
Look at my signature, the part about the Chinese room problem, it's not one to one but it does have some similarities.

You're telling *this witch clearly shows intelligent behavior but it cannot be intelligent behavior because it's a witch and they don't have intelligent behavior, only instincts*, I already covered what I thought of that kind of reasoning when I cited Ghoul King on humanity tendencies to cry *no, we are special, it's just instincts when it's others!* and your reasoning there is pretty much that.

What I'm saying is that what we take to be reasonable behaviour doesn't have to be. This is another facet of human bias, expressed in attributing traditionally human traits to other creatures, most often intelligence.

When it comes to observation of intelligent behaviors of non human species, most of our species' reasoning is so biased that I would take any conclusion with several tons of salts if they use any expression like *instincts*, *non sapient*, *imitating without understanding* and all other ways to try and think that we are superior in our *wiseness*, this is viable there too, especially since we know for a fact that Witches don't perceive the world as we do, making these *observations* even more dubious, worse still when the behaviors we see are very strongly biased into being only the reactions to having their main predator in front of them trying to kill them.


See, science is not designed to look for unambiguous, undeniable truth. It would be pointless and ineffectual. All we need is a fairly comprehensive and consistent explanation from which to draw conclusions. From a practical standpoint, it doesn't matter if witches are sapient or not, as long as it doesn't affect their behaviour.

Okay, we're really digressing from the story itself, and we really shouldn't be doing that.
 
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Last thing: sapient, not sentient, sentient is able to feel the world, which is basically a prerequisite for anything able to interact in any way with it, sapient is *able to have wisdom* and is the one about intelligence, easy way to remember is to look at Homo Sapiens Sapiens, easy mnemonics when in doubt.

Yes, thanks for noticing. Arguing about definitions in a language you don't know very well can be difficult.
 
Yes, thanks for noticing. Arguing about definitions in a language you don't know very well can be difficult.

People conflating Sentient and Sapient is so widespread I wouldn't have realized English wasn't your first language with that mistake, quite a lot of native English speakers unable to remember the difference, and I myself constantly made the same mistake in my native language (french, where they're spelled about the same) until I found something that made the mnemonic I use now (Homa Sapiens Sapiens for sapient) to click.

Trust me, you're fine on how well you speak the language is what I want to say.
 
2.1.14 - On The Daily Grind Once More
Chapter 93 - On The Daily Grind Once More

Organizing teams for patrol is difficult. Even under otherwise normal circumstances, managing the interplay of personalities and abilities is essential for ensuring every team works together flawlessly. As far as that goes, it's not a particularly challenging job. Homura will outright refuse to leave Madoka alone during active combat from what you can guess, so the two of them might as well be sorted together. Sayaka has been warming up to Homura, especially after her Distortion, and Madoka could definitely play mediator between the two, but it would on the whole be unnecessary. Besides, both Homura and Sayaka have powers that work as force multipliers. They're better off divided between the two teams.

Kyoko and Mami are old friends, experienced in fighting beside one another. They both survived hunting Witches either alone or together for years, a feat almost unheard of for Magical Girls. Placing them on a team together, and alongside the least experienced combatant, makes the most sense to you. Kyoko can restrain her aura, and between her and Mami Sayaka has a lot to work with.

Furthermore, in your current arrangement, there are certain volatile factors that need to be balanced.

Placing both of the Distortions on a single team would likely be a poor idea. You know from Homura's memories that she and Kyoko got along rather well, especially in comparison to everyone else, but that might not apply any more. Homura as she is now is even more single-minded than she was before her transformation. She's barely interacted with anybody but you since then, even keeping a distance from Madoka in her self-appointed duty. With that in mind, you feel it best that you join her group for this patrol.

A few quick calls gets everyone on board, without any contradiction or complaints against the groups you've decided on. As the sun dips over the horizon, you set off.

—————————

The first Barrier your group finds is one you've seen before. The normally bleeding neon webbing that makes up the floor of Lulu's Barrier is turned colorless under Homura's time stop. Despite the lack of opposition, Madoka still has trouble balancing. Only a few steps into the Barrier and she steps at a slight angle on one of the threads, nearly sending her tumbling to the false cityscape below. Homura turns, sheer panic filling the air despite her lack of expression, but it's not necessary. You jump forward and catch the pink-haired girl before she can fall, pulling her back up and helping her stabilize stop the monochrome web.

"You don't have to be here." Homura says, concern clear despite her monotone. "X and I could handle this easily. You are only endangering yourself pointlessly."

"I'm sorry…" Madoka's voice trails off as she looks down in shame.

"No, no, it's fine." you assure. "Here, let me just…" A simple readjustment lets you lift the kid up off the unstable ground and into your arms. Carrying somebody so much smaller than you does nothing to interfere with your balance, so you can make up for Madoka's own lack of supernatural coordination.

"This wouldn't be necessary if you didn't choose to tag along on these hunts. There's no reason you should be here." Homura points out. To some extent, you agree with her. Madoka becoming a Magical Girl would be a failure for you, so ideally there really isn't any reason for Madoka to be further familiarizing herself with how Witches work. However, you know better than to expect ideal results. She's involved, and that's unlikely to change any time soon. At least this way you can keep an eye on her.

"Mami says that I should see what it's like being a Magical Girl, so I can make an informed decision." Madoka recites. You have a suspicion that she's borrowing Mami's exact words to try and give an impression of confidence she has trouble showing otherwise.

You direct a soldier to open fire at a few of the Familiars floating frozen around the Barrier. The salvo freezes just before impact, leaving no hope of survival. It's much easier to aim at small targets when they aren't moving.

"Haven't you seen enough? What about everything you've seen so far makes you think that becoming a Magical Girl will do anything other than hurt you?" Homura's voice remains flat, though her frustration is apparent in her words. And yet, there's a trace of resignation in the way she starts to turn away before Madoka has even responded. She's had this argument before, and already knows how it ends.

"I know it'll be hard. But even then, shouldn't I do what I can to help people?" Madoka answers. Homura doesn't respond, already moving further in through the Barrier.

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You finally reach Lulu herself, sitting petrified in the center of her web. Homura wastes no time in stepping up to the hand-shaped creature and drawing a shotgun from somewhere. You know she stored her weapons in her shield before, but now they simply appear from thin air. The weapons themselves are different, too. Before, Homura's armory was piecemeal and made up of whatever she could get her hands on. Now, not only do they match her outfit's aesthetics, but they're high quality. By the City's standards, too. Homura's finger closes around the trigger, and an amethyst plume of light bursts from the shotgun's barrel. The frozen bullets gleam like crystals just above the Trapdoor Witch's skin.

The sound of gears grinding against each other heralds time's flow resuming, only to be replaced by a great cacophony as the Barrier dies. Madoka blinks rapidly in your arms, momentarily blinded by the sudden flood of colors. It only lasts a moment, though, before Homura's attack shreds the fragile Witch. The neon lights vanish into the cage of the Grief Seed, which tumbles to the ground.

Before anyone else can react, you get an idea.

"Homura?"

The girl turns towards you with an inquisitive gaze. Without explaining anything, you step forwards and drop Madoka into Homura's arms. She reaches out and catches her almost automatically, and the two stare frozen at one another while you retrieve the Grief Seed. Homura's expression is unchanged, as always, but you don't miss the subtle adjustment of her posture to make the carry as comfortable as possible. Were she able to, you have no doubt she'd be blushing furiously right about now. Madoka, for her part, gets over the confusion quite quickly.

"So, you gonna let her down now?" you say back to the pair. As if suddenly reminded of the circumstances, Homura jolts slightly before setting Madoka onto her feet. The two look away from one another, occasionally glancing back. Meanwhile, you just chuckle quietly to yourself. You did promise to do your best to help Homura, after all. Setting her up with her crush is probably included in that help.

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A few uneventful Witches later, and the sun is down. You cleared the route in time, leaving Madoka to head home and Homura to probably follow her in secret.

"Oh… Homura..?" Madoka starts slowly. It seems you might be wrong about that last part. The black-haired girl freezes completely upon being addressed, turning mechanically back to face the other kid.

"If you don't have anywhere else to go… would you like to stay over at my house tonight?"

"Yes." Homura's delivery is flat and passionless, but the speed with which she replies gives away her real reaction. You quietly step away, leaving the two to head back together. The night has fallen, and that means only one thing for you.

You have work to get to.

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Night falls…
[] Training/Experimentation
-[] With what?
[] Hunt Witches/Abnormalities
[] Investigate Kamihama City
[] Attend to business in the Library
[] Write-in


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Der Freischütz's Sapling - Observation Level 2/3
Porccubus' Sapling - Observation Level 2/3

Character interactions are difficult, and I haven't had as much practice writing Madoka as I have other characters. This chapter was a bit of a challenge.
 
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Now that is what a friend of mind would say is 'adorkable'
Children no matter what happens will be children
 
The point is, you can have witches be conscious and able to make decisions without changing anything about Pmmm, in fact, what little we see of witches' mindset from the inside implies that it is the case, it's just that the level of grief they're under plus the psychological changes from becoming basically a new type of existence makes our little human brains go: *These aren't sapient! Only humans are sapient! They dont think like us so they're not!*, when in fact they are.
Ah, my meaning was not to dismiss the consciousness of witches out of hand ("conscious thought" was a poor phrasing). It's just that witches being POV characters outside of fanfic is extremely rare (the only one I can think of was Homura, who was a special case), so their inner world is up to the fanfic author to determine. I didn't want to get too caught up in philosophical debates about sapience/consciousness, it is simply wondering about what interpretation this particular setting is using, and if this girl is a special case or not.

After distorting, Jae-heon remarks about becoming confused with all kinds of thoughts, and losing his way for a while until Argalia found him. That is similar to my personal interpretation of normal witch thought processes in canon. Definitely conscious, but in a sort of hazy dreamlike state.
 
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[X] Attend to business in the Library

I don't know what business we'd be attending to, but I'm very much in favor of doing regular check-ins on the kids/young women there.

Edit: We could drop off more grief seeds. That's important. Also just see how that bunch are dividing themselves up.
 
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This is an adorable chapter.

Not sure what we should do now though... I guess maybe just look around for signs of other Abnormalities?

[X] Hunt Witches/Abnormalities
 
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