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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I feel there is no point in putting down a fellow runelord's accomplishments, even if ours are more prestigious.

Vragni isn't stupid. He is as capable of research as any Runelord. No Runelord of this era could attain the title just by making stuff alone.

Most new Runesmiths start with a tiny set of runes known, and have to research, extrapolate and collaborate to get more.

He climbed that ladder.
Of course he can figure out how to reproduce a given effect if he dedicated the effort to it and had samples to study. And samples of Khazagar runework are not exactly rare or hard to identify
It is a path, Snorri is creating a new road for a better tommorow for Dawi while Vrangi saw him walk of the beaten path and tries to catch up to him. Vrangi doesn't know where the path leads (Major ancestor godhood) so he walks on it blindly following a glim of Snorri's torch.

I do think that Snorri doesn't hate Vragni. Like he disagres with some ideas but is quite detached from the situation compared to Vragni.
That was originally. We checked, Vragni went overboard in his words to Snorri, refuses to take it back and now the feud is no longer one sided, even if neither would actually DO anything about it besides try to one up each other and feel smug about it, and even if Snorri's take on it seems more like handling an unreasonably rude child than anything else


On the bright side they are setting the gold standard for what is expected of Rune lords in the north , pretty sure in a thousand years or so its going be normal for Rune lords to hold as much influence as kings in the north what with all the favor they are accumulating faster than they can spend
If it means Runelords invest much of their time and wealth to advancing the welfare of their people, its good stuff
 
I may be remembering it wrong but wasn't orange glow before he found the Tongs?
I think its unclear, they happened very close together in time. The Glow did appear on the rumours list before the Tongs however that doesn't mean he didn't get the Tongs before the rumors started spreading and I'm not certain that we can be sure that the order of the results pages is significant here.
Soulcake did clarify that the Tongs probably weren't used to manipulate magic in order to do the orange glow as they manipulate the material and it would be Thungni's Runestaff thats more appropriate to manipulate the immaterial.

I would hazard a guess that the Tongs may have been a reward for whatever Vragni did to get the orange glow. However they could be totally unrelated and Vragni just got an excellent ReR roll on the same turn he was scheduled to get the tongs.
 
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Lets rooolllllll this back to what I originally responded to.
Unmove those goalposts.

It feels some what exhausting to keep slicing up concepts, but OK from the top:

Conservatives are defined by their willingness to make small variations of runes and insist they are new so as not to break the rule of pride
Vrangi uses the Apprentice exception which is that you are allowed to keep making the same rune as an apprentice to learn it exceedingly, to the point where the primary point of those replicated runes isn't really learning in the opinion of the wider conservative movement in the south which is why he is a radical. The corollary to this is the more apprentices he has at any one time the more identical runes he can make while they are 'learning them'
Vrangi also uses the tradition of freely sharing runes along master apprentice line, both ways to spread the minor rune variations typical of conservatives as far as it will go. It is commonplace but he and other Vrangians take it to an extreme.
The Citadel spreads the Vrangian creed to those people receptive to it. Of course the more spread out it is the larger the collective pool of runes being shared around is, therefore it exists to exploit a loophole in the common conservative understanding of the Rule of Pride to a wider scale. Vrangi himself doesn't think it's a loophole, he just thinks it's common sense because of course they are his politics and spreading them directly favors the expansion of his rune library and his accumulated store of favors. That last bit just normal dwarf politics.
 
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Honestly, I think it depends on what Vragni used on the runes. We know Snorri's Runes became golden because of a ritual that became divine in symbolism, together with deep magic, while what symbolism or meaning would be close to the orange of Vragni? Honestly, I feel like Agshy, but its wind is red/ruby in colour. But it could be a combination of winds that created that situation. Maybe Agshy and Chamon? Given that we combine equal parts of red and yellow colours to make orange colour, and Agshy is red while Chamon is yellow, so quite possibly it is that, and it works in a sense on what Chamon and Agshy represent. So there is that, it is not as big as what Snorri did with the representation of all Ancestor Gods and working on that in numbers of 7s, even if by complete accident on Snorri's part, but still impressive.
 
It feels some what exhausting to keep slicing up concepts, but OK from the top:

Conservatives are defined by their willingness to make small variations of runes and insist they are new so as not to break the rule of pride
Vrangi uses the Apprentice exception which is that you are allowed to keep making the same rune as an apprentice to learn it exceedingly, to the point where the primary point of those replicated runes isn't really learning in the opinion of the wider conservative movement in the south which is why he is a radical. The corollary to this is the more apprentices he has at any one time the more identical runes he can make while they are 'learning them'
Vrangi also uses the tradition of freely sharing runes along master apprentice line, both ways to spread the minor rune variations typical of conservatives
The Citadel spreads the Vrangian creed to those people receptive to it. Of course the more spread out it is the larger the collective pool of runes being shared around is, therefore it exists to exploit a loophole in the common conservative understanding of the Rule of Pride to a wider scale. Vrangi himself doesn't think it's a loophole, he just thinks it's common sense because of course they are his politics and spreading them directly favors the expansion of his rune library and his acumulated store of favors. That last bit just normal dwarf politics.
Maybe its exhausting because you keep merging all these concepts together and forgetting to tell other people that you've done so. And so when I try and argue against specific concepts you end up covering more stuff than we need to because you've still got them all merged. Just something to think about.

There are three specific things in contention here as I see it:
Firstly spreading your beliefs is not the same thing as practicing them. His taking a lot of apprentices and his running of the Citadel are two separate things. The Citadel isn't a loophole in the rule of pride. Its a means to spreading and encouraging people who share his interpretation of the rule of pride. And thats not the same thing.
Secondly not just Vragni, nobody believes that the Apprentice thing is a loophole. You jumped straight from a well understood exception which follows from a more detailed understanding of the perceived intention of the rule that everyone practices to this is a loophole.
Finally, the fact that this is an informal rule defined by an individual interpretation means that I don't really think anything can particularly be considered a loophole. A loophole is a flaw or error in a law that allows a person to bypass its intention. When these are internally held beliefs I think nothing can be considered a loophole unless like the dwarf in question believes their actions are running against the intention of the rule. And... it just seems like a deeply weird situation for anyone to be in compared to that they just genuinely believe they are acting in accordance with the intention of the rule.
 
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Maybe its exhausting because you keep merging all these concepts together and forgetting to tell other people that you've done so. And so when I try and argue against specific concepts you end up covering more stuff than we need to because you've still got them all merged. Just something to think about.

There are three specific things in contention here as I see it:
Firstly spreading your beliefs is not the same thing as practicing them. His taking a lot of apprentices and his running of the Citadel are two separate things. The Citadel isn't a loophole in the rule of pride. Its a means to spreading and encouraging people who share his interpretation of the rule of pride. And thats not the same thing.
Secondly not just Vragni, nobody believes that the Apprentice thing is a loophole. You jumped straight from a well understood exception which follows from a more detailed understanding of the perceived intention of the rule that everyone practices to this is a loophole.
Finally, the fact that this is an informal rule defined by an individual interpretation means that I don't really think anything can particularly be considered a loophole. A loophole is a flaw or error in a law that allows a person to bypass its intention. When these are internally held beliefs I think nothing can be considered a loophole unless like the dwarf in question believes their actions are running against the intention of the rule. And... it just seems like a deeply weird situation for anyone to be in compared to that they just genuinely believe they are acting in accordance with the intention of the rule.
  • Spreading beliefs is the same as practicing them as long as you do it in public and have a reasonable expectation that others will imitate you. That is kind of the whole point of the Ancestor Gods, that they mostly lead by example. Also spreading Vrangian beliefs directly and materially benefits Vrangi so it would strain credibility even more to think he is doing so in a disinterested manner
  • It is a loophole when the primary purpose is not that the apprentice learn, but that you make use of the rune. There is no way to enforce that distinction without a frankly tyrannical level of centralization because no one but the master can judge how many times an apprentice must make a rune to learn it, but it's the kind of distinction that matters to many runesmiths.
  • Yes the rule is informal, but a consensus on it does exist, that is the conservative position, with those who stray beyond it being radical.
 
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[X] [Whitebeard:] Aid after the war. The Valayans plan to settle the Northern mountain range, repurpose some of the string of forts built over the war into proper Holds. Lend aid to that endeavor. The Karaz Ankor and Everpeak especially, shall lend their aid to settle the Mountain fortresses of the Far North.
 
Honestly, I suspect Vragni yeeted all his actions into understanding the Tongs the moment he got them, and that is why he managed to do something with his runes to turn them orange.
Snorri immediately ran into a 'Damn, Vragni would be able to do so much with what I just learned', so I suspect that the Tongs also won't instantly give Vragni stuff that he could use.
 
Spreading beliefs is the same as practicing them as long as you do it in public and have a reasonable expectation that others will imitate you. That is kind of the whole point of the Ancestor Gods, that they mostly lead by example. Also spreading Vrangian beliefs directly and materially benefits Vrangi* so it would strain credibility even more to think he is doing so in a disinterested manner
I do not understand this position it seems insane to me.
Let us consider a rule of pride literalist who will never use the same rune twice.
Is this person allowed to ever express their beliefs or discuss what combo they placed on an item, because it might cause another runesmith to use a rune that they have carved previously?
It is a loophole when the primary purpose is not that the apprentice learn, but that you make use of the rune. There is no way to enforce that distinction without a frankly tyrannical level of centralization because no one but the master can judge how many times an apprentice must make a rune to learn it, but it's the kind of distinction that matters to many runesmiths.
Even as apprentices all of our students where doing actual commissions for individuals, and they were brought along as Snorri did commissioned work for all the Runes of Light in the hold. You can't clearly draw a line between something that was done to learn and something that has a purpose because they learnt something carving out all of those Rune of Lights... Why wouldn't they then use them.

The reason for this carve out is not just to learn although that is part of it, it is because of the pride in rule of pride.
Apprentices are in the process of learning, its expected that they make mistakes and they will obviously 10 or 20 years from now be able to create things that far surpass what they are currently capable of.
If the purpose of the rule of pride is that you should always be advancing your craft, innovating new art and only making things you should be proud of, then obviously you shouldn't be constrained by the macaroni picture you made when you were a child.
This is where Snorri's 100 year cooldown from, because he believes that after a century has passed he can do it better, he was proud of it at the time but now he can make something he's even more proud of.
Yes the rule is informal, but a consensus on it does exist, that is the conservative position, with those who stray beyond it being radical.
We may just have to move on from this specific point and recognise we're using language differently because all I can think is why would that even matter?
I guess if Vragni succesfully brought every conservative around to his way of thinking, would this stop being a loophole? Would anything in a wider perspective of the rule of pride argument change?
 
I do not understand this position it seems insane to me.
Let us consider a rule of pride literalist who will never use the same rune twice.
Is this person allowed to ever express their beliefs or discuss what combo they placed on an item, because it might cause another runesmith to use a rune that they have carved previously?

This is reductio ad absurdum, obviously it's insane. My point was that dwarf society is constructed such that elders actions engender imitation, for instance we encouraged the Drakk dwarfs to be pro-Branna by giving them a rune torque. When an elder gains obvious consistent material benefit from said imitation it makes sense to consider they are doing it on purpose

We may just have to move on from this specific point and recognise we're using language differently because all I can think is why would that even matter?
I guess if Vragni succesfully brought every conservative around to his way of thinking, would this stop being a loophole? Would anything in a wider perspective of the rule of pride argument change?

It would stop being a loophole if he manages to move the consensus which is a function not just of numbers but of the age and influence of those who make up said consensus. In short if he managed to bring enough conservatives with enough influence over
 
This is reductio ad absurdum, obviously it's insane. My point was that dwarf society is constructed such that elders actions engender imitation, for instance we encouraged the Drakk dwarfs to be pro-Branna by giving them a rune torque. When an elder gains obvious consistent material benefit from said imitation it makes sense to consider they are doing it on purpose
Okay..... Explain to me where I have misunderstood you because I agree its absurd. But I believe it absurd because 'saying that you should avoid repeating runes' and 'avoiding repeating runes' are two different actions and therefore non equivalent, however thats what you are arguing.
 
Okay..... Explain to me where I have misunderstood you because I agree its absurd. But I believe it absurd because 'saying that you should avoid repeating runes' and 'avoiding repeating runes' are two different actions and therefore non equivalent, however thats what you are arguing.

How much an unexplained position is a political statement scales with how much influence you have. Thungi for instance helped create the all modern interpretations of the Rule of Pride just as you said above, by never striking the same rune twice. Yes each of the individual interpretations were the creations of the relevant runesmiths, but at any point Thungi could have said one thing or another and changed everyone's mind. Choosing not to speak thus makes his responsibile through innaction.

Vrangi obviously doesn't have that much influence, but he is also much more open about his position than Thungi, as seen from the way he acted during the war or that letter he sent to Snori. Add to that the fact that Vrangi has a material interest in the expansion of his political current and you get the way in which Vrangi's success is fundamentally linked to his politics.
 
While I'm certain this conversation is very interesting and engaging for both of you, it's becoming rapidly clear that neither of you will convince the other, so can we move on to something else?

You both have been discussing Vrangi for four pages straight, and you both have gotten basically nowhere in terms of convincing the other.

Apologies if this is rude, but it's getting a tad annoying to be continuously alerted about this topic.
 
How much an unexplained position is a political statement scales with how much influence you have.
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:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
Siri define non sequitor.
While I'm certain this conversation is very interesting and engaging for both of you, it's becoming rapidly clear that neither of you will convince the other, so can we move on to something else?

You both have been discussing Vrangi for four pages straight, and you both have gotten basically nowhere in terms of convincing the other.

Apologies if this is rude, but it's getting a tad annoying to be continuously alerted about this topic.
This is only getting funnier the more Dragon says.
However I'm happy to take this to PMS.
 
After the Time of Woes is when all of the other runelords will be definitive for politics since the North will become isolated, it's when conservative and radical functions could change to reflect the new order.

Current one is just inviable since as much as the Far North grew it's still the middle of nowhere frontier with almost no importance for the realm. Also shame if we do end up isolated is that the Northern engineers just deteriorate into maintaining basic crafts unlike the rest of Dawi who make blimps, guns and ironclads.
 
After the Time of Woes is when all of the other runelords will be definitive for politics since the North will become isolated, it's when conservative and radical functions could change to reflect the new order.

Current one is just inviable since as much as the Far North grew it's still the middle of nowhere frontier with almost no importance for the realm. Also shame if we do end up isolated is that the Northern engineers just deteriorate into maintaining basic crafts unlike the rest of Dawi who make blimps, guns and ironclads.
If it ever comes to that we will counter their technological progress with four rune bling.
 
After the Time of Woes is when all of the other runelords will be definitive for politics since the North will become isolated, it's when conservative and radical functions could change to reflect the new order.

Current one is just inviable since as much as the Far North grew it's still the middle of nowhere frontier with almost no importance for the realm. Also shame if we do end up isolated is that the Northern engineers just deteriorate into maintaining basic crafts unlike the rest of Dawi who make blimps, guns and ironclads.
We already derailed canon storyline during Coming of Chaos, and connecting Far North to Underway afterwards, and we are still thousands of years away from War of the Beard (which very likely will not happen, or happen in a different way) and Time of Woes.

Also as long as brana survive I can see no way for Far North to become completely cut off.
 
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We already derailed canon storyline during Coming of Chaos, and connecting Far North to Underway afterwards, and we are still thousands of years away from War of the Beard (which very likely to not happen, or happen in a different way) and Time of Woes.

Also as long as brana survive I can see no way for Far North to become completely cut off.
A more plausible and interesting conflict is Malekith goes all in on hunting down his mother's Chaos cults and brings a massive Throng with him to kill her, setting off a international incident due to not bothering to ask the High King beforehand. Which might end up with the Everqueen approving of his actions against Chaos cultists but the High King being pissed off at the blatant disregard for his authority, setting them against each other.

That would be a huge mess to take care of, and much different than a retread of canon, especially if Albion is thrown into the mix, either as helping against the cults, disapproving of Malekith's actions, or just being the neutral party that's trying to keep the conflict below the point of drawing weapons.
It would also avoid the boring cliché of elves versus dwarves, since factions on all sides would be in conflict.
 
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:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
Siri define non sequitor.
What does the term political mean to you? I get the feeling you think something has to have been intended to be a "political statement" by the person speaking for that to be the case. Ergo stories are non-political if the author doesn't intend or have a specific message they are portraying.

Is that your view?
 
I think as an example, Snorri refusing to take a public stance despite his politics largely being self-evident is a political stand in its own right, being that Runelords should primarily focus their time and attention on helping people and their craft.

His welcoming all qualified runesmiths to learn and lecture of their own will at Khazagar is itself another statement on how he believes runelore should be exchanged - if you are qualified, you are qualified, but there should be no compulsion on teacher to teach.

Put as a whole, Snorri's chief visible political stand puts the independence of the individual runesmith to advance their craft very highly in his priorities, and his second is helping people, great and small alike. And funny enough as far as any evidence I can see, Vragni agrees on these points without reservations even if he'd rather have you pull his teeth out than say so.

TLDR - when you have this much prestige and influence, anything you do in public is a statement. Dwarves idolize the aged, the skilled, the prestigious and the wealthy, and Snorri is all of those.
 
A more plausible and interesting conflict is Malekith goes all in on hunting down his mother's Chaos cults and brings a massive Throng with him to kill her, setting off a international incident due to not bothering to ask the High King beforehand. Which might end up with the Everqueen approving of his actions against Chaos cultists but the High King being pissed off at the blatant disregard for his authority, setting them against each other.

That would be a huge mess to take care of, and much different than a retread of canon, especially if Albion is thrown into the mix, either as helping against the cults, disapproving of Malekith's actions, or just being the neutral party that's trying to keep the conflict below the point of drawing weapons.
It would also avoid the boring cliché of elves versus dwarves, since factions on all sides would be in conflict.

Another option is that we may well have changed things so that Malkeith isn't campaigning on the edge of the Chaos Wastes, as Dum is gone and the eastern dwarves seem to have the problem well in hand, so Malkeith and Snorri Whitebeard don't need to go up there as part of expelling chaotic remnants from the Old World.

If he's not campainging there, he won't be in the right place to find the pre-Coming of Chaos city Vorshgarr and the Iron Circlet* within, so he won't have the vision that convinces him that taking over the elves to really ramp up the war on Chaos is much more urgent than he previously thought, and also doesn't grant him knowledge of and great control over Dhar, which means he won't have the incentive to adopt the tyrannical mind set required to wield Dhar.

He's also probaly had a front row seat to see how bad using Dhar is for people's critical faculties when fighting the Fimir.

This Malkeith may well rebel, but he's likely to be much more patient about it, particularly if he sticks to Qhaysh rather than True Dhar.

A Malkeith that emerges as the champion of the colonial elves' continental legitimate grievances with distant overlords demanding obedience and taxes from Ulthuan would be very different to the one of canon, but could still produce a very devastating war, particularly if he sought dwarven allies.

Depending on where collaboraton between colonial elven mages and runsmiths goes, you could even potentially see the use of runecraft to enhance mage's skills being his replacement for the extra power from True Dhar he replied on in canon.

* One day I'd quite like to make him a wisdom granting Crown/circlet, particularly based on the revelation that Snorri Whitebeard is trying, in some ways, to be the functional parent that Malkeith has never had. A crown that serves as an angel rather than a devil on his shoulder would be a nice reversal, and would be a natural development of where we're going with Mind of Things and with the contents of the recent update. Possibly include a Rune of Fate style effect como-ed with one that grants the wisdom to use the knowledge of potential futures it grants appropriately, unlike his reaction to his canon vision of the future, where he caused what he sought to avert.

I think as an example, Snorri refusing to take a public stance despite his politics largely being self-evident is a political stand in its own right, being that Runelords should primarily focus their time and attention on helping people and their craft.

His welcoming all qualified runesmiths to learn and lecture of their own will at Khazagar is itself another statement on how he believes runelore should be exchanged - if you are qualified, you are qualified, but there should be no compulsion on teacher to teach.

Put as a whole, Snorri's chief visible political stand puts the independence of the individual runesmith to advance their craft very highly in his priorities, and his second is helping people, great and small alike. And funny enough as far as any evidence I can see, Vragni agrees on these points without reservations even if he'd rather have you pull his teeth out than say so.

TLDR - when you have this much prestige and influence, anything you do in public is a statement. Dwarves idolize the aged, the skilled, the prestigious and the wealthy, and Snorri is all of those.

I made a point earlier that I think the Ancestor Gods set the precedent that the paramount form of social influence is via the example you set rather than the words you say, and I think dwarven culture has internalised that on a deep level. Thus, the way you do dwarven politics is the way Snorri is doing it
 
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