Juvenat doesn't prevent people dying from being shot or stabbed in the right places. W might not age, but in the long arc of history she will slip up sooner or later.
In the long arc of history, we'll be back. And in the longer one the ship's resources won't matter much one way or another.

There are ways it could be a problem but it seems a long odds risk.
Publically handing down ownership of Juvenat gives us the choice of what Juvenat access looks like going forward, leaving it to W leaves the issue to W's judgement, and destroying it leaves the issue to chance.
If Denva builds Juvenat vats, those won't be under W's control regardless.
 
There's a huge difference between a public research project for a mass rollout, and a shadow war over an existing resource that people may want to keep exclusive.
 
Public ownership is going to be a farce when there are only 50 people who can benefit. The people who benefit are going to do anything but to lose it, and that's how you incentive a democracy into an aristocracy.

I want the leaders to not regard losing power as a death sentence, or else they will never give up power without being violently forced. And I don't think there's any realistic way to separate who gets the juvenat from who holds temporal power.

If they have the plans for production facilities to research on their own, cool- they can do a mass rollout once they have it. It'll be a great project for a democracy. But I think leaving existing production to be fought over will make it less likely that gets rolled out, and more likely democracy gets undermined.

I mean the same is true for W and her 24 friends, they are not special even if she is. Personally I am voting Mechanicus out of pure self interest on Vita's part (which I know will not fly far so I'm not arguing for it) but any choice we make will inevitably end up with a cabal of powerful immortals. Morally speaking politicians is probably better than spies.
 
I mean the same is true for W and her 24 friends, they are not special even if she is. Personally I am voting Mechanicus out of pure self interest on Vita's part (which I know will not fly far so I'm not arguing for it) but any choice we make will inevitably end up with a cabal of powerful immortals. Morally speaking politicians is probably better than spies.

Yeah, which is why my preference is to destroy the facility as we leave. I don't think it'll get over the 'but you are voting to kill W!' response though.
 
I mean the same is true for W and her 24 friends, they are not special even if she is. Personally I am voting Mechanicus out of pure self interest on Vita's part (which I know will not fly far so I'm not arguing for it) but any choice we make will inevitably end up with a cabal of powerful immortals. Morally speaking politicians is probably better than spies.
It should be possible to set up a lottery. Do it all in the open and explicitly make it a condition of turning over the facility in the first place that the lottery be kept in place.

Either way, I dislike the thought of just removing it, as that would deny them the chance to study and eventually reverse-engineer it.
 
Re: Juvenat, we gave Denva our entire database. They have the ability to make more juvenat production facilities right now, the crashed ship does not determine who has exclusive access to juvenat nor the ability to reverse engineer it. Nor do they need to reverse engineer it, because they have the blueprint.

If W were given it, she would personally be guaranteed to keep living (she might manage it anyways, with her connections). But primarily, she would have an asset, not the ability to go up to some random government official and say "I choose whether or not you get to live forever", because if elected officials want that, they can vote to give themselves eternal life already.

Immortal rulership is not something Denva will avoid by avoiding Juvenat. But putting a staunch pro-democracy person in charge of their own supply of manufacturing and Juvenat could help prevent it... not that they would be on their own for that, because we're coming back in 10-20 years.

I'm fine with giving it to W, or as a public museum, or to the cogitaire. But there's no reason to fear monger over this.
Quick point of information, we actually can't get there before they leave. What we can do is start a clock for them and if we roll well it will be short, but they will still have time to look (below, per Neablis).
[] Charge towards Aerithon (Write in if you talk to them)
You can at least ensure the amount of time they have to do mischief is limited. Depending on rolls they may not have time to loot much - if that's their intention.
Oh. Oh bugger.

@Neablis , can we write in to have the engineers start turning on the defenses, but to signal them to stop if/when we get the Eldar to stop beelining for the station? Or at least slow down enough to do so safely.

On a basic level, I want a chance for the defenses to go up if the eldar don't abort their run, but for the engineers to not have to risk themselves any further once the eldar ships do abort said run.
 
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Re: juvenat, having it in the tech pack means that the possibility should become public knowledge. Which could pose a problem for public figures who are oddly evergreen. There's room to rationally suspect such a person of having a covert source of juvenat...
 
They have the ability to make more juvenat production facilities right now, the crashed ship does not determine who has exclusive access to juvenat nor the ability to reverse engineer it.

But they don't have those faculties yet, so until they are up and running (three turns? more? in the future) it is an exclusive asset of those with control over the ship.

I would prefer not to count chickens before they hatch.
 
But they don't have those faculties yet, so until they are up and running (three turns? more? in the future) it is an exclusive asset of those with control over the ship.

I would prefer not to count chickens before they hatch.
You sure about that? Look at the blueprints tab:
Basic Juvenat Production Facility (250 BP, 50 CP) A set of carefully-managed vats capable of supplying 50 people with a perennial supply of Juvenat.
A juvenat production facility costs the same amount as a void manufactory. With our manufacturing, which we're giving them, they can make roughly 30 such facilities an action, or 120 every five years - enough to supply 6000 people. The moment we're gone, they can figuratively snap their fingers to make every national elected official immortal. Bam, done.

But remember, they already have plenty of their own manufacturing. 5 factories of any variety is enough to make a juvenat facility in one action. They've been playing the exponential growth game all this time, so suffice to say they have much, much more than 5 factories.

This is not some future development, they already have the blueprint and we're already one action into the turn. If they want juvenat, they have it and they have had it since before the eldar even showed up in the system.

Or the facilities to produce it are, at least. I don't know how long it takes to train 5 guys to run one together.

Our crashed ship's juvenat production facilities are a drop in the ocean. The single most useful thing about the ship is that its manufacturing and juvenat are secret - the ship's capabilities as a public asset are thoroughly un-noteworthy, which might be why it'll be turned into a museum instead of being put to work if the handover is public.
 
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Ideally, juvenat would be accessible to everyone. Unfortunately, we really haven't made much research progress in that direction. Hopefully, Denva can make some progress in that direction on their own.

idea: If we're sticking around into next turn, maybe we can do Human Simulation Implants before we leave? That wouldn't just help us, it should give Denva a lot more RP to work with.
 
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idea: If we're sticking around into next turn, maybe we can do Human Simulation Implants before we leave? That wouldn't just help us, it should give Denva a lot more RP to work with.
Depends on how this encounter goes. Unless something about how it resolves forces us to stay, we appear to be leaving:
I haven't entirely decided yet. It probably depends to some extent on how the interaction with the Eldar goes. If it all turns out well, then the next update will cover the trip to Ascalon and the next turn will start with you in Ascalon & 3 actions remaining. If it doesn't then you'll start in Denva and be allowed to spent your 3 actions there before you go.
 
Ideally, juvenat would be accessible to everyone. Unfortunately, we really haven't made much research progress in that direction. Hopefully, Denva can make some progress in that direction on their own.

idea: If we're sticking around into next turn, maybe we can do Human Simulation Implants before we leave? That wouldn't just help us, it should give Denva a lot more RP to work with.
It's a big if, but it'd be cool.

Costs 300 RP, though, so if we do wind up with that window it eats a big chunk of it.
 
A juvenat production facility costs the same amount as a void manufactory. With our manufacturing, which we're giving them, they can make roughly 30 such facilities an action, or 120 every five years - enough to supply 6000 people. The moment we're gone, they can figuratively snap their fingers to make every national elected official immortal. Bam, done.

So, 50 years for 60,000 people, dedicating their entire production to it? 500 years for less than a million on a planet of billions? I'm not sure how many years of exponential growth in manufacturing is required to get to a point where it could be rolled out to everyone at the same time, but I suspect more than any unaided human lifespan.

This is going to be a continual drain on exponential growth regardless of what we do. The civilizational incentive is to ignore it and build manufacturing full speed, but every decision maker's personal incentives are to build juvenat for themselves.

So I think that not having anyone publicly getting this stuff to begin with means that it won't be built: it cannot be shared equally and the anti-democratic nature of having only a few people get it is going to be very obvious to the voters. As long as 'nobody' has it, the equilibrium is for no one to be allowed to build it. But as soon as some people have it, then everyone will want it and it becomes a direct tradeoff against building factories and defenses.
 
So, 50 years for 60,000 people, dedicating their entire production to it? 500 years for less than a million on a planet of billions? I'm not sure how many years of exponential growth in manufacturing is required to get to a point where it could be rolled out to everyone at the same time, but I suspect more than any unaided human lifespan.

This is going to be a continual drain on exponential growth regardless of what we do. The civilizational incentive is to ignore it and build manufacturing full speed, but every decision maker's personal incentives are to build juvenat for themselves.

So I think that not having anyone publicly getting this stuff to begin with means that it won't be built: it cannot be shared equally and the anti-democratic nature of having only a few people get it is going to be very obvious to the voters. As long as 'nobody' has it, the equilibrium is for no one to be allowed to build it. But as soon as some people have it, then everyone will want it and it becomes a direct tradeoff against building factories and defenses.

Forget manufacturing, the big thing here is figuring out how make the stuff cheap enough for mass production. Which also pulls resources away from other things, yeah, but not nearly so badly, and has some side benefits too.

And lets be real, you can't stop the elites from giving themselves juvenat. There isn't a human civilization in all of history that could manage that. It's just a question of how many people get it, how quickly.
 
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So, 50 years for 60,000 people, dedicating their entire production to it? 500 years for less than a million on a planet of billions? I'm not sure how many years of exponential growth in manufacturing is required to get to a point where it could be rolled out to everyone at the same time, but I suspect more than any unaided human lifespan.

This is going to be a continual drain on exponential growth regardless of what we do. The civilizational incentive is to ignore it and build manufacturing full speed, but every decision maker's personal incentives are to build juvenat for themselves.

So I think that not having anyone publicly getting this stuff to begin with means that it won't be built: it cannot be shared equally and the anti-democratic nature of having only a few people get it is going to be very obvious to the voters. As long as 'nobody' has it, the equilibrium is for no one to be allowed to build it. But as soon as some people have it, then everyone will want it and it becomes a direct tradeoff against building factories and defenses.
Ground factories take 100 BP. Machine spirit ground factories, the kind that can be controlled by a single person, take 120 BP. Figuring out how quickly they can do juvenat for everyone is an algebra word problem.

Not that I think they're going to. The path to getting everybody juvenat is research - but notably for squishy humans without reality simulations, that's going to involve making some production facilities to see it in action and identify problems and iterative improvements. "Nobody gets any because that would be unfair" would be crab bucket thinking that halts their ability to research the ability to get it to everyone.

But more importantly - It doesn't take much imagination to see how excuses could be made for some people to get juvenat (You got the medal of freedom! It comes with immortality, hooray! We're doing a lottery!), and even less to see that some people are going to try it, and more are going to resist tearing any down once they're built. And some will be willing to resort to anti-democratic means to get it.

Anti-democratic means like... buying it from someone who got it in a lottery for enormous sums of money.

Basically, the availability of juvenat just isn't something that's in our hands anymore. For better or worse, Denva is in charge of its own development now.
 
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So, 50 years for 60,000 people, dedicating their entire production to it? 500 years for less than a million on a planet of billions? I'm not sure how many years of exponential growth in manufacturing is required to get to a point where it could be rolled out to everyone at the same time, but I suspect more than any unaided human lifespan.

This is going to be a continual drain on exponential growth regardless of what we do. The civilizational incentive is to ignore it and build manufacturing full speed, but every decision maker's personal incentives are to build juvenat for themselves.

So I think that not having anyone publicly getting this stuff to begin with means that it won't be built: it cannot be shared equally and the anti-democratic nature of having only a few people get it is going to be very obvious to the voters. As long as 'nobody' has it, the equilibrium is for no one to be allowed to build it. But as soon as some people have it, then everyone will want it and it becomes a direct tradeoff against building factories and defenses.
I think Denva Secundus does have a private sector so unless it is actually outlawed rather than just kept out of the main public production queue some of it will likely become available before too long.
But if not having any publicly getting this stuff is what you see as the more stable situation for secondus democracy, then I notice that "give it to the public" is not one of the options which does this, while "give it to W" is.
I believe @Glau has been voting for W and stating a preference for "actually just turn it off", not pushing for it to be public.
 
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I believe @Glau has been voting for W and stating a preference for "actually just turn it off", not pushing for it to be public.
Oh. Shoot, I didn't notice; now that I think about it I kind of remember Glau saying they would be fine with W having it in an argument last week, too.

Sorry for implying you were voting against your interest, Glau.
 
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[x] Plan: Ware the Ancient Rush

Hopefully, these Eldar are just practising an abundance of caution, anticipating (not unreasonably) that the humans would open fire immediately if they announced their presence, and not preparing a raid.

[X] Old Ship: Denva Public

While I think that W would be a fine (and potentially better) steward, I fear putting the emphasis on one individual, no matter how competent, risks creating a single point of failure should anything happen to W and control presumably reverts to some tug of war between her "cabal" and the Denvan government(s).

Presumably the "cabal" and W could work out some arrangement to keep Juvent access for themselves in return for funding Juvent research for the wider public or something similar in order to smooth over the transition process.

So, 50 years for 60,000 people, dedicating their entire production to it? 500 years for less than a million on a planet of billions? I'm not sure how many years of exponential growth in manufacturing is required to get to a point where it could be rolled out to everyone at the same time, but I suspect more than any unaided human lifespan.

This is going to be a continual drain on exponential growth regardless of what we do. The civilizational incentive is to ignore it and build manufacturing full speed, but every decision maker's personal incentives are to build juvenat for themselves.

So I think that not having anyone publicly getting this stuff to begin with means that it won't be built: it cannot be shared equally and the anti-democratic nature of having only a few people get it is going to be very obvious to the voters. As long as 'nobody' has it, the equilibrium is for no one to be allowed to build it. But as soon as some people have it, then everyone will want it and it becomes a direct tradeoff against building factories and defenses.

While I understand your logic, I can't help but feel like prioritising raw numbers of civilisation output over the quality of life of citizens is the exact kind of Imperium-style thinking we are trying to avoid, and even if we succeeded we would be undermining our the wider effort to entrust and empower the Denvans with their own futures, which I fear could be very damaging to relations in the long term if the extent of what we concealed (if we attempt to remove Juvenat), and more significantly why we concealed it becomes publically known.

However, I also see major practical issues with just shutting down Juvenat supply - all the media moguls, political leaders, and other "cabal" members W has brought together to help encourage planetary unification from the shadows, who would very quickly turn against anyone who they would perceive as betraying them by shutting down the immortality production they have known and enjoyed for decades at this point (even if the life-saving advanced medicines produced for themselves and their families/loved ones might be sufficient "collateral" to cause some to hesitate).

Considering just how primed a public that has just widely embraced an ethos of technological sharing and (arguably) utopianism would be to react negatively to a narrative we are shutting down their capability to reverse engineer or even continue using existing Juvevant manufacturing "for their own good"? The politicians would leak the location to the media, the army would be immediately ordered to move in to try and prevent us from destroying/shutting down the Juvent supply (which may not work but would be tried nevertheless), followed closely behind by tsunami crowds of public protesters desperate to save the chance for a longer life for themselves and their loved ones (even if the chance they themselves would be one of the lucky 50 is infinitesimally small), and/or that future generations, their children and grandchildren, might be liberated from the tragic tyranny of old age, infirmity and death (even if only partially with a diluted and/or primitive Juvent version).

We could probably "win" the battle of destroying the Juvenat production before the Denvans could secure it, but we would almost certainly lose the war of public opinion (in the immediate term and in the future) and risk poisoning our future relationship with Denva, potentially irrecoverably, going forward.
 
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While I think that W would be a fine (and potentially better) steward, I fear putting the emphasis on one individual, no matter how competent, risks creating a single point of failure should anything happen to W and control presumably reverts to some tug of war between her "cabal" and the Denvan government(s).

Presumably the "cabal" and W could work out some arrangement to keep Juvent access for themselves in return for funding Juvent research for the wider public or something similar in order to smooth over the transition process.
They don't need to reverse engineer it. They already have our blueprint for making more juvenat production facilities.

Like, nothing on our ship needs reverse engineering. We gave them our entire database, they know what we know about the capabilities that went into it.

At most, it would prevent interruption of the existing supply because there's still some lead time to training the 5 man OMC teams that can operate the juvenat factories they now know how to build.
 
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Hmm. Lacking large scale OMC, Denva will have to do something like converting our shipyards to manual before they can produce their own navy, I guess?

Just something noticed, not an alarm.

Or develop that for themselves, they should be able to.
 
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