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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Manowl said:
Will Subordination make a more new United society or will there be resentment or what?
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Subordination forces Nod into being closer to GDI if it doesn't get outright absorbed.

Truth and Reconciliation is about 'so the past 70 years have been absolutely horrible and we have all been part of that, what can we do so we do not try to stab eachother 20, 50, or 100 years from now?'.
 
[X] Subordination of the Brotherhood of Nod
[X] Truth and Reconciliation
[X] Tiberium Control Network Effect
 
Hazard said:
Subordination forces Nod into being closer to GDI if it doesn't get outright absorbed.

Truth and Reconciliation is about 'so the past 70 years have been absolutely horrible and we have all been part of that, what can we do so we do not try to stab eachother 20, 50, or 100 years from now?'.
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Well feel that a lot of people in gdi will what the threat of nod dealt with peacefully likely because the war fatigue has to be generations deep now, and that Carter view that humanity needs to be one is going have a lot of people behind it with how the second contact has been like.
 
[X] Subordination of the Brotherhood of Nod
[X] Construction Share Ratio
[X] Truth and Reconciliation

In the short term Subordination lets us take their nukes away. Any plan without this is letting NOD warlords keep holding a gun to our head.

In the medium term Construction Share helps keep them too busy to come up with other ways to fuck us, and hopefully in the long term the shared labour and shared achievement of saving the planet reduces bitterness between the two factions.

In the long term T&R points a way toward there not being a NOD anymore.
 
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I would prognosticate them as:

Only Subordination: Nod and GDI become one, with GDI obviously dominant. The bell can't be unrung, even as this sends Nod holdouts and Initiative Firsters into an eternal rage against the system and each other. The war continues in shadows, hoping newer generations will blur the lines, even as they continue to be raised to hate the other side.

Only Reconciliation: Nod and GDI remain at least nominally separate, and probably more than that. However, the will for war is reduced to a low broil. The Systems Alliance will be a dual-state, vulnerable to splintering as Nod and GDI retain the right to pursue separate interests. Humanity is never united under one banner, and probably never will be.

Both: The Systems Alliance truly represents all of humankind, socially and technologically encompassing all that Nod and GDI have ever known. The crimes of both powers are recognized, addressed, and surpassed. Noddism and the Initiative are woven together into a new whole, and what Kane was looking to see humanity evolve into probably comes to fruition. There's nowhere significant for other powers to stick the knife in.

Much as that both is appealing, it's not more so than Bentusar technology, however. Even the chance of getting splicer morphs would be worth it, though I continue to think we should discard tiberium now, allowing for that group of three.
 
nope0 said:
I am surprised that Truth and Reconciliation is getting so many votes: it just doesn't make sense for a demand, if it makes sense. The GDI government can always do something like that later if the benefits are deemed to be satisfactory: I feel like getting a more concrete concession from nod, like []Construction Share Ratio, would be more useful.
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No, I don't think you're right about this.

The thing is, right now Kane is the one in the position of being pathologically smug and denialist about his many war crimes (because he's a fucked-up person) and he's the one setting the tone at the top for Nod. Also, Nod is the side where the war crimes people are most likely to be in charge and to benefit from delaying any investigation of the crimes indefinitely. It's going to take actual political effort for GDI to normalize the idea that accountability is the norm, and if we don't invest that effort now, then even if GDI subjugates and integrates Nod, it will be by basically just paying off the existing warlords, letting them retire to nice estates with a steady supply of hookers of their gender preference, and letting the whole question of who did war crimes to who just quietly lapse or become the realm of whoever's propaganda comes out on top. Because that will be BY FAR the easier way to integrate Nod, the path of least resistance.

Also, TCN construction is likely to take over a decade. If we normalize the idea that wartime atrocities (on both sides) are not going to be taken as a serious point of discussion for the duration of the TCN project, then it is likely that many of the victims and participants alike will simply be dead of old age before there is any real political will to engage with the question.

I don't want to risk creating a situation where 50-75 years from now, the descendants of today's Noddists are falling into a Lost Cause mythology around Kane while being on the inside of our political structure. We need to get all the crap aired out in the open, and frankly this is more important than subjugating Nod politically. In the wake of the advanced TCN completion and Kane's departure, GDI will be the overwhelmingly dominant economic and military force on the planet, and the continued existence of autonomous Nod enclaves is just not really that much of a problem compared to the sheer level of political bad blood that may result if the underlying foundation of war crimes isn't addressed.
 
Nod sticking around that is not in a new gdi or whatever would be a pain in the ass to deal with and that the gdi people in the meeting do not want at all so don't think they will be sticking around because of peaceful unification or violence.
 
The Lone badger said:
If someone's already stabbed you three times you don't hand him a knife while saying "I trust that, as a rational actor, you will recognise that it is not in your long-term self-interest to stab me." He clearly thinks stabbing you is an effective way to advance his interests, and maybe he knows something you don't. You can't model everything he might know and might be planning, but you can recognise patterns.

tl:dr if you assume Kane is a perfectly rational actor open to pursuing enlightened mutual-benefit he wouldn't have done half the things that he's already done.
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This invites the question of what "hand him a knife" even means in context. I don't think Kane is actually going to be in that great of a position to knife us during TCN construction.

Manowl said:
Nod sticking around that is not in a new gdi or whatever would be a pain in the ass to deal with and that the gdi people in the meeting do not want at all so don't think they will be sticking around because of peaceful unification or violence.
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The current generation of GDI leadership (figures like Carter, Hackett, and Litvinov) will not necessarily still be in charge twenty years from now in the post-TCN, post-Kane world.

We've spent much of the quest legitimizing the idea that Nod entities (like the Caravanserai) can have a right to exist outside of GDI's system and can retain autonomy while still working with us against greater overarching threats to the world. So far, we have not regretted this course of action.
 
[X] Truth and Reconciliation
[X] Tiberium Control Network Effect
[X] Technology Exchange

We can go without Nod being under our direct control. We need Tiberium. We need better tech. And above all we need to end. these. fucking. wars.
 
Thorgon said:
without Kane does NOD really have the ability to contest us? we have orbital superiority and Kane isn't handing out goodies anymore so I'm not sure what all the warlords can accomplish that's actually problematic rather than irritating
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They have a lot of weird bioweapon options and stuff that they generally don't consider throwing around. Even al-Isfahani didn't because we seem to have presented him with the choice to at least get to live even without all his power.

Basically, if tiberium were no longer a threat Nod could still fuck up the world pretty bad with some of their weirder shit, and if nothing else they could always homebrew a liquid tiberium bomb and detonate it before we could stop them as a "doomsday device" threat.
 
Simon_Jester said:
This invites the question of what "hand him a knife" even means in context. I don't think Kane is actually going to be in that great of a position to knife us during TCN construction.

The current generation of GDI leadership (figures like Carter, Hackett, and Litvinov) will not necessarily still be in charge twenty years from now in the post-TCN, post-Kane world.

We've spent much of the quest legitimizing the idea that Nod entities (like the Caravanserai) can have a right to exist outside of GDI's system and can retain autonomy while still working with us against greater overarching threats to the world. So far, we have not regretted this course of action.
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Think that a autonomy system like how future colonies will be of some kind would be able to pass gdi politics but I don't think that independent nods that aren't like the Caravanserai or forgotten tribes would no be acceptable to most of the partys.
 
Manowl said:
Think that a autonomy system like how future colonies will be of some kind would be able to pass gdi politics but I don't think that independent nods that aren't like the Caravanserai or forgotten tribes would no be acceptable to most of the partys.
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The triple negative in that sentence makes it a bit hard for me to follow what's going on.

In any event, I don't think we can trace the precise details of political evolution 100+ years into the future as GDI presumably begins interstellar colonization. It's entirely possible, and indeed hopefully likely, that if we can leverage Truth and Reconciliation, then a couple of generations from now when Kane's personal presence is a fading memory, the average person from GDI or Nod won't feel nearly so strongly about it being 'fated' for the two to be in conflict or trying to somehow squeeze each other out.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The triple negative in that sentence makes it a bit hard for me to follow what's going on.

In any event, I don't think we can trace the precise details of political evolution 100+ years into the future as GDI presumably begins interstellar colonization. It's entirely possible, and indeed hopefully likely, that if we can leverage Truth and Reconciliation, then a couple of generations from now when Kane's personal presence is a fading memory, the average person from GDI or Nod won't feel nearly so strongly about it being 'fated' for the two to be in conflict or trying to somehow squeeze each other out.
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What I mean is the talk before hand by gdi on its policy on what to do for mature space colonies, and one of the options was something were they are still part of us but they have big local autonomy on a ton of stuff and have representatives and delegates and stuff, like feel something like that would be digestible to the gdi partys and most importantly to the public?
 
[X] Subordination of the Brotherhood of Nod
[X] Truth and Reconciliation
[X] Tiberium Control Network Effect

I know Subordination of Nod might not win, since Tech transfer is leading the votes right now, but I'll still vote it, anyways.
 
[X] Tiberium Control Network Effect
[X] Technology Exchange
[X] Truth and Reconciliation
 
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