Coyote Niff
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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
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- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
Ehhh. But jump is being done to the gravitational well of some planetary body, correct? So if they jump to the furthest body, they are automatically around the outermost orbit. And if they jump to any other body then they are automatically deeper into system than that.
So it's kinda "shoot at them in 99% cases of jumps, unless they respond (which they generally don't)"?
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[X] OPLAN: Horizon
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
@4WheelSword can correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression was that the jump was outside the orbitals, generally.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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While you have been conducting deep orbital jumps for safety most of the time, the vast majority of jumps go directly to the 100D limit of the planet being approached, or to the 100D limit of the star if the planet is closer in that that.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
OK; so in this case, would "inside the outer planetary body orbitals" be suitable for an outer exclusion zone or is that something they could jump into by accident?
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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Lemme check Heimdalls star...
The 100D limit on Heimdalls star is less than 1au, which makes it very likely that these ships are coming either on top of the star or on top of one of the two gas giants in the system. They can jump to almost anywhere within the orbitals.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Thank you!
In this case, I suppose it would be "penetrate the outer orbitals with apparent intent". I'll edit accordingly.
@4WheelSword
Thank you! Can you please also clarify about the jumps into the empty sectors? Do I correctly understand that 1) those are at least somewhat risky, the risk being that ships could arrive to wildly different places in the empty space, up to lightyears from each other; and 2) it is almost impossible to find and intercept someone else's ships in the empty sector, as you generally have no idea to what point in the empty space they would jump?
Like, when we are jumping to a system "sector", we all are jumping to the same system, which is a relatively small place in astronomical terms; but empty sector is devoid of these obvious jump targets, and a thousand ships from dozen different factions can jump to the same empty sector, and would not see each other?
Thank you! Can you please also clarify about the jumps into the empty sectors? Do I correctly understand that 1) those are at least somewhat risky, the risk being that ships could arrive to wildly different places in the empty space, up to lightyears from each other; and 2) it is almost impossible to find and intercept someone else's ships in the empty sector, as you generally have no idea to what point in the empty space they would jump?
Like, when we are jumping to a system "sector", we all are jumping to the same system, which is a relatively small place in astronomical terms; but empty sector is devoid of these obvious jump targets, and a thousand ships from dozen different factions can jump to the same empty sector, and would not see each other?
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4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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1> They are riskier in that if you have an undertrained astrogator, they are less confident without a gravity well to 'aim' at. There is much more base variance in a jump to an empty sector, hence a lot of time y'all seeing ships having to rendezvous before moving on.
2) It's not impossible, because you can absolutely end up in a small enough volume to see each others jump flashes, but it is... unlikely.
This doesn't seem like a simple RoE.
We should either give the commanders discretion to fire whenever a ship or asset is threatened or give them a clear rule.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I feel like "attempt to get within weapons range of our orbitals" is fairly clear.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Revised to:
-Two IC-III Refits (2000 tons, 710Mcr)
-One Frigate, Flight II (500 tons, 271Mcr each)
-One strike squadron for Heimdall Anchorage to replace the existing FB squadron (216 MCred)
10-5: The Monsters at the Door
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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What should the HSWS lay down? The first Patrol Carrier (5,500 tons, 2,837.595Mcr), Two IC-III Refits (2000 tons, 710Mcr), One Frigate, Flight II (500 tons, 271Mcr each)
Additional: Review design and hullform for potential use as basis for a capital ship armed with turreted torpedos and laser barbettes (and cost savings for standardized hullform).
What are the rules of engagement: The ROE is simple - hostile action can be met with fire under defined circumstances. If an HSWS (or HSLS or other) ship is fired upon, or if a group of Hermosan ships enter Heimdall and are in position to immediately fire upon home facilities or orbital facilities and do not answer hails or respond to warnings.
Available Budget: 288.435MCr
Current Dockyard Usage: 10,000Dtons
The Monsters at the Door
With new Rules of Engagement written up and delivered to the busy fleet station at Heimdall, the members of the HSWS sitting pretty at Home can sit and watch as the first plates are laid down for the Patrol Carrier. 5,500dtons of crystaliron and internal framing will play host to two-hundred souls and more than forty small craft, a flying docking hub for a long-range strike group that can deliver missiles to the exact ranges required for optimal attacks on enemy warships.
With so many of the Interstellar Cruisers now through refit and serving actively with the fleet, we are rapidly approaching the end of the block IIa types and the completion of the block III point-defence and torpedo ships. The 'new' fleet is almost complete, without the risk of needing to use the inhumane particle weapons banned under the Articles of War.
The enhanced block III (bottom) compared to the previous block II. Note the lack of major turrets and the addition of the new 'ring' style Manoeuvre Drive.
Nonetheless, despite the developments that drive the HSWS forwards, there is always something keeping us stuck looking backward. Heimdall - and the Hermosan incursions - remains a thorn in the side of the state. The latest incursion does, however, come on the heels of of the new ROE and leads to a... novel exchange:
Recording from the Command Centre of the HSWS Maha Sona
"Jump Flash, Jump Flash. Bearing Zero-Eight-Niner by three-two-three. Range is... Captain, range is 800,000km and closing."
"They've come in close this time. Ops, set action stations and have all crew come to stations. Comm, give the standard warning."
-- Message dispatched 'Hermosan Ship, you have entered territory under the protection of the HSWS. Heave too and await escort or depart this system at once.'
"No response, Captain."
"When is there ever."
"You know we're well within our rights to open fire, Captain."
"Thank you XO, I am simply averse to starting a shooting war I don't have to. Comm, send them another, make it mean this time. Helm, set a course for 100,000km, full military power. XO, with me. I have an idea."
-- Message dispatched 'Unidentified ship, Heave too or we will have no choice but to take action. Warnings will not be repeated'. No significant action is recorded for over an hour.
"Enough of this. Dispatch the boarding party to offer all medical and technical aid required. Clearly if they're not responding they must be in distress."
The boarding shuttle Passionate Witch takes an hour to match speeds with the Hermosan Combat Platform, and another thirty minutes to close the distance until they're within visual range of the fat, missile tube studded wedge of the enemy. The pilots report that they can see the word 'Glaive' stencilled down the flank on their scopes. The ship is hot, its drives are active (there is a certain amount of 'wash' from drive plates than can be detected at close ranges) and it is beginning active manoeuvres. Nonetheless, the boarding shuttle continues to close the range.
Then a flurry of action. The Hermosan ship side-slips under full power. The shuttle pilot evades, tossing the platoon of FLF infantry in the back against their harnesses. A request from the back seater, seeking permission to put a pair of missiles into the big ships drives. The last message received from the shuttles pilot and ESO reads:
"-spike in readings, they're trying to form a bubble."
"Go evasive, we don't know what'll happen if-"
The Maha Sona's second shuttle (Ain't Miss Behavin') was dispatched immediately to investigate, as the shuttle could not be raised. When they entered visual range they found the Passionate Witch missing every part of her hull forwards of the airlock. The Hermosan ship, later identified as the HCP Glaive, was tumbling without control, a small spill of debris and fluids the only other sign that something was wrong with her.
Forty-two of the forty-five soldiers dispatched aboard the Passionate Witch are recovered aboard the AMB, the last three left in their acceleration couches where they died until a proper recovery of the bodies could be made. During the process, the Maha Sona recieves first contact from the Hermosan ship; a desperate plea for aid. They are on emergency power, their jump drive is inoperable, their atmosphere systems are only semi-functional and they are, in almost all ways, a ruined ship. It takes several days (and the arrival of a second platoon of FLF aboard the MMV Perkūnas) but eventually the tumble is slowed, power is restored enough to light the M-drive, and the Glaive is brought into a holding orbit with the Anchorage and Defence station.
All of this happens in between courier runs, and even then travel takes time, so it takes three weeks for messages to reach Home. But now, finally, we have a bargaining chip.
What does the HSWS want done with the Glaive?
[ ] Ship it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it.
[ ] Throw it into the nearest gas giant - destroy it utterly.
[ ] Keep it under guard in Heimdall as a visible bargaining chip.
The MIC is desperate to interrogate the crew, of course. What does Home hope to learn? (Choose two)
[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
[ ] The nature of Hermosa's issue with Home.
[ ] The extent of Hermosan systems and how tight their grip is.
[ ] Technological advances on the Glaive and efficiencies that could be found on our own ships.
[ ] The reason for Hermosan flights and their disinterest in communications.
[ ] Something else - write in.
What about Hermosa?
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to come and get their crew.
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to stop sticking its nose in.
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to come and inspect their ship to show we did not fire upon it.
[ ] We shouldn't say anything to Hermosa.
Please present votes as plans. Voting opens at
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[ ] Ship it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it.
[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
[ ] The nature of Hermosa's issue with Home.
[ ] We shouldn't say anything to Hermosa.
something like this is what i would vote for
[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
[ ] The nature of Hermosa's issue with Home.
[ ] We shouldn't say anything to Hermosa.
something like this is what i would vote for
[ ] Proto plan
-[ ] What to do with the Glaive?
--[ ] Ship it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it.
--[ ] Be suspicious: station a large marine complement aboard to prevent any trojan-horse or stay-behind forces from doing anything rash (e.g. sneaking out some nukes while it's docked; or maybe something more carefully planned); examine the ship carefully and remotely if possible.
-[ ] Interrogations
--[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
--[ ] The reason for Hermosan flights and their disinterest in communications.
-[ ] What do we tell Hermosa?
--[ ] The crew should be offered asylum, we should invite Hermosa to come and get whoever wants to go back
Given that courier runs are several days apart, I think we should consider commissioning more couriers or using some escort ships + any merchant ships as couriers.
-[ ] What to do with the Glaive?
--[ ] Ship it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it.
--[ ] Be suspicious: station a large marine complement aboard to prevent any trojan-horse or stay-behind forces from doing anything rash (e.g. sneaking out some nukes while it's docked; or maybe something more carefully planned); examine the ship carefully and remotely if possible.
-[ ] Interrogations
--[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
--[ ] The reason for Hermosan flights and their disinterest in communications.
-[ ] What do we tell Hermosa?
--[ ] The crew should be offered asylum, we should invite Hermosa to come and get whoever wants to go back
Given that courier runs are several days apart, I think we should consider commissioning more couriers or using some escort ships + any merchant ships as couriers.
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okaaaay
It would be a reasonale assumption that Hermosan decision-makers are at least somewhat divided into the cofident ones, who are pushing for the fight with us now, and with more careful ones, who believe that they need to study our strengh first.
This is very rough, we cannot make more precise assumptions of what is considered "hawkish" with Hermosans, and what is "dovish". Still, they are expansionists who conquered at least one planet that we know of, and they are constantly sending the probing scouts to us. So in general this should be an ok assumption.
So our actions would generally have effects on both "hawks', "doves", and on their ballance.
1. Actions like destroying the ship or taking it to Home immediately would probably strenghen the "hawks" - they would push the idea that we've deliberately attacked their ship, and that the shooting action has already begun therefore. Which means, that they should be shooting too.
2. Actions like keeping the ship and inviting the Hermosans to inspect it would promote the idea that the event was an embarassing incident for Hermosans. It was likely that it's "hawks" who were pushing for their scouts to make daring maneuvers around our forces - and now the awful thing had happened. This would probably strenghen the "doves" and allow them to take some "calm down" action and move a bit away from brinkmanship.
1a. It's of course is possible that doing actions from category "1" would instead cow the Hermosans into fearing our might - "those Hominids have wrecked our ship in a short action, they are too strong" - but this is unlikely as the Hermosans are expansionist conquerors.
2a. It is a bit more likely, if their "hawk" faction is massively stronger than doves, that Hermosans would proceed to attack us immediately after knowing that this was indeed the embarassing incident - both redeem themselves and to "prevent us from studying their tech".
But I think this is less likely, as they would not engage in these "daring maneuvers" - either would confidently scout us without stunts, or wouldd have already attacked us.
The same is with their crew. If their government is "meme enough" that their crew would jump at our asylum proposal, the hawks at Hermosa would likely promote the view that we've brainwashed the vrew or killed them, and sent to Hermosa a deep fake "we are taking the asylum" message.
What does the HSWS want done with the Glaive?
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to come and inspect their ship to show we did not fire upon it in the next three months. After that we are shipping it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it. We are not inviting Hermosans to Home, if they do not inspect it in the timeframe provided, they'll have to wait until we studied it. Maybe we'll give it back to them after that, maybe not.
The MIC is desperate to interrogate the crew, of course. What does Home hope to learn? (Choose two)
[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
[ ] The reason for Hermosan flights and their disinterest in communications.
What about Hermosa?
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to come and get their crew. The crew should be offered asylum too. Task MIC to keep eye on the asylum-takers - there WOULD be Hermosan spies among them.
It would be a reasonale assumption that Hermosan decision-makers are at least somewhat divided into the cofident ones, who are pushing for the fight with us now, and with more careful ones, who believe that they need to study our strengh first.
This is very rough, we cannot make more precise assumptions of what is considered "hawkish" with Hermosans, and what is "dovish". Still, they are expansionists who conquered at least one planet that we know of, and they are constantly sending the probing scouts to us. So in general this should be an ok assumption.
So our actions would generally have effects on both "hawks', "doves", and on their ballance.
1. Actions like destroying the ship or taking it to Home immediately would probably strenghen the "hawks" - they would push the idea that we've deliberately attacked their ship, and that the shooting action has already begun therefore. Which means, that they should be shooting too.
2. Actions like keeping the ship and inviting the Hermosans to inspect it would promote the idea that the event was an embarassing incident for Hermosans. It was likely that it's "hawks" who were pushing for their scouts to make daring maneuvers around our forces - and now the awful thing had happened. This would probably strenghen the "doves" and allow them to take some "calm down" action and move a bit away from brinkmanship.
1a. It's of course is possible that doing actions from category "1" would instead cow the Hermosans into fearing our might - "those Hominids have wrecked our ship in a short action, they are too strong" - but this is unlikely as the Hermosans are expansionist conquerors.
2a. It is a bit more likely, if their "hawk" faction is massively stronger than doves, that Hermosans would proceed to attack us immediately after knowing that this was indeed the embarassing incident - both redeem themselves and to "prevent us from studying their tech".
But I think this is less likely, as they would not engage in these "daring maneuvers" - either would confidently scout us without stunts, or wouldd have already attacked us.
The same is with their crew. If their government is "meme enough" that their crew would jump at our asylum proposal, the hawks at Hermosa would likely promote the view that we've brainwashed the vrew or killed them, and sent to Hermosa a deep fake "we are taking the asylum" message.
What does the HSWS want done with the Glaive?
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to come and inspect their ship to show we did not fire upon it in the next three months. After that we are shipping it to Home aboard a Modular Conveyor - we can learn from it. We are not inviting Hermosans to Home, if they do not inspect it in the timeframe provided, they'll have to wait until we studied it. Maybe we'll give it back to them after that, maybe not.
The MIC is desperate to interrogate the crew, of course. What does Home hope to learn? (Choose two)
[ ] The strength and dispositions of Hermosan ships.
[ ] The reason for Hermosan flights and their disinterest in communications.
What about Hermosa?
[ ] We should invite Hermosa to come and get their crew. The crew should be offered asylum too. Task MIC to keep eye on the asylum-takers - there WOULD be Hermosan spies among them.
So we've been given a massive boon. If we are able to successfully reverse engineer the sensors and software of the Glaive, that gets us up to TL10 in those areas. Weapons and drives maybe, maybe not as well.
Of course, in order to take that opportunity, we need to convince the Hermosans that 1) it's not our fault that they lost their vessel and 2) we don't have it anymore. As such, I think we should try and think of a write-in whereby we seemingly destroy the Glaive, and thus cannot return it to the Hermosans. Perhaps a radiation leak?
To buy time for us to do this, of course, we should make it very clear to the Hermosans that we are going to be returning the crews to them. I think we can assume that any debrief we get from the crew that want to go home will be trash, so I'd rather prioritize us wining-and-dining the shit out of them in the hopes that some will agree to stay behind. However, I think we need to return at least some of the crew ASAP so that they know that we didn't fire on the ship and that what we're doing is a rescue operation.
And for this, we obviously need some thematic music.
View: https://youtu.be/kLxxbXRSWgk
Of course, in order to take that opportunity, we need to convince the Hermosans that 1) it's not our fault that they lost their vessel and 2) we don't have it anymore. As such, I think we should try and think of a write-in whereby we seemingly destroy the Glaive, and thus cannot return it to the Hermosans. Perhaps a radiation leak?
To buy time for us to do this, of course, we should make it very clear to the Hermosans that we are going to be returning the crews to them. I think we can assume that any debrief we get from the crew that want to go home will be trash, so I'd rather prioritize us wining-and-dining the shit out of them in the hopes that some will agree to stay behind. However, I think we need to return at least some of the crew ASAP so that they know that we didn't fire on the ship and that what we're doing is a rescue operation.
And for this, we obviously need some thematic music.
View: https://youtu.be/kLxxbXRSWgk
I don't think it will be very plausible to the Hermosans that we've had their ship stable for 6 weeks (as observed by follow-up scouts, presumably), and then it exploded or whatever.
@4WheelSword, could we get some maps of the star systems and likely infrastructure, etc. in Hermosa, Equus and Sinone based on our scouting? I'd like to see where the fleets tend to be, where the 100D limits are and where the infrastructure and possible defences are.
@4WheelSword, could we get some maps of the star systems and likely infrastructure, etc. in Hermosa, Equus and Sinone based on our scouting? I'd like to see where the fleets tend to be, where the 100D limits are and where the infrastructure and possible defences are.
"We tried to tow it back to Home, and while hovering above a gas giant to refuel, accidentally dropped it"
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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That sounds like effort, but I'll tell you some points of note:
Equus - There are two points of interest, the inhabited world (third from the star) and the fuelling depot that operates in the low orbits of a large gas giant (second from the star).
Sinone - Minor infrastructure over main world (2nd orbit) some other facilities in orbit around 4th orbit, a gas giant. Suspected naval base and often playing host to one or more combat platforms.
Hermosa - Heavily built up. Heaviest traffic, civilian and military. Densely observed.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I'm in favor of telling the Hermosans to come and get their crew while we wine and dine them and see if we can get any defectors.
I'd like to know why they don't communicate and what their issue with us is, but learning more about their ship capabilities might be nice - although they may not want to tell us much.
Also in favor of telling the Hermosans that we're gonna keep the wreck because it happened in our system.
I'd like to know why they don't communicate and what their issue with us is, but learning more about their ship capabilities might be nice - although they may not want to tell us much.
Also in favor of telling the Hermosans that we're gonna keep the wreck because it happened in our system.