Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Even if they just moved the senior council to another less impressive fortress it wouldn't change the fact that they'd have a smoking hole in the ground declaring them powerless and untrustworthy failures.
So?
Archangel's smoking husk is right there, along with the bodies of Senior Council member Simon Petrovich and his entire household. The loss of that fortress did not hurt the Council half so much as the loss of the people there did.

The setting is STILL feeling their absence ten years later, and will be for centuries to come because wizards of that power and expertise take centuries to train.


The Council has moved multiple times in recent memory. This is not a secret.
Any non-human supernatural of moderate age remembers when the Council was based in Cairo, in the Vatican, in Rome, in Madrid. Edinburgh is pretty effing new by supernatural standards.

You are focusing on real estate instead of people.
I put it to you those are the wrong set of priorities. Nobody is going to be particularly impressed that you own an empty fortress if you do so at the cost of all the people necessary to actually hold it.

As far as we can tell, no, these are the headquarters Merlin himself made.
No, this is a faerie-build fortress.
Merlin won it in a bet. The Council did not make it their HQ for more than 500 years after inheriting it from him.
 
They haven't that we have evidence of.

This isn't happening at a calm time in their history. They're barely staying in a very nasty war, their internal political factions are starting to experience significant friction, and now they're going to learn the council not only wasn't able to keep them safe but that it was actually the source of a major threat.

In canon just Peabody being revealed then dying was enough that the council almost splintered. Literally the only thing that saved it was filling an empty council seat with the leader of the splinter faction.
This is all of that, plus an monument to how profoundly incapable the council was at dealing with him.

There is no nation on earth that would deal with an equivalent loss calmly.
They are staying in this war by virtue of their people.
Of the Senior Council representing a strategic force in being that can be deployed, buying them time while they rebuild. By the Senior Council mobilizing allies and calling in old debts to buy time.

Fortresses do not win wars. People do.
And if you think the Council's members find the Halls more important than the most powerful wizards in the world, I dont know what to tell you.



The Council was at risk of splintering because LaFortier was murdered, and he was an advocate of wizards from African and Asian countries, who took offense. Georgio Cristos took the opportunity to use it to push for political power.
Whether Cristos is Black Council or just a power-hungry dupe remains unknown.

Peabody's exposure had nothing to do with that.


Man thats just not true.
Every extant major power has taken proportionately similar Ls and swallowed them instead of focusing on saving face.
Mab was literally attacked in her home less than a year ago, and was later forced to have her daughter killed .

Lara Raith canonically had a rogue archmage come into a Whampire meeting and murder most of the upper nobility of the White Court, then a couple years later, a naagloshii come into her home and kicked her and her sisters around and murdered half her security force.

Hell, the White Council literally lost >70% of its army less than 2 years ago.
In fact, the ability to take Ls and keep focus seems to be the difference between successful factions and dead ones.
It is their capital.

It's where they keep all their nuclear teir people. Where they run their military's high command. Where they host meetings of their entire citizenry to hold votes and set policy. Where they accept diplomatic envoys and perform various functions of state. It's where their operational records, most important library, and highest power artifacts are.

The white council doesn't have cities to lose, this is the equivalent value of DC and NORAD packed into one fortress.

The material loss is a huge problem, but the lethally serious one is the political aftermath. It's basically the equivalent of a person getting stabbed then going into shock until they bleed out.

Even if they just moved the senior council to another less impressive fortress it wouldn't change the fact that they'd have a smoking hole in the ground declaring them powerless and untrustworthy failures.
It is literally military doctrine that POTUS promptly evacuates the White House and gets put on a plane during international crisis, leaving the White House and Washington DC to burn.
People do not exist for capitals. Capitals exist for people.
The material loss is a huge problem, but the lethally serious one is the political aftermath. It's basically the equivalent of a person getting stabbed then going into shock until they bleed out.
Im going to quote it again:
Turn Coat c14 said:
The Hidden Halls of Edinburgh were the redoubt and fortress of the White Council of Wizardry from time immemorial. Well, actually, that last bit isn't true. It's been our headquarters for a little under five hundred years.
The White Council has existed since pre-Roman times, in one form or another, and its headquarters has shifted from time to time, and place to place. Alexandria, Carthage, Rome—we were in the Vatican in the early days of the Church, believe it or not—Constantinople and Madrid have all been home to the Council's leadership at one time or another—but since the end of the Middle Ages, they've been located in the tunnels and catacombs hewn from the unyielding stone of Scotland.

Edinburgh 's tunnel network is even more extensive than those beneath the city of Chicago, and infinitely more stable and sturdy. The main headquarters of the complex is located deep beneath the Auld Rock itself—Castle Edinburgh, where kings and queens, lords and ladies, have defied, besieged, betrayed and slaughtered one another since pre-Christian times.
There's a reason a fortress has been there for as long as mankind can remember—it is one of the world's largest convergences of ley lines. Ley lines are the natural currents of magical energy running through the world. They are the most powerful means of employing magic known to man—and the lines that intersect in the earth deep below the Auld Rock represent a staggering amount of raw power waiting to be tapped by someone skilled or foolish enough.
The Council has moved before. It will move again in the future.


Of course, this entire argument is irrelevant, and based on false premises.

The best place to save the Hidden Halls from is from the Senior Council chambers.
This fortress was built by the Fae, for a Fae lord. Ergo, any secret controls and overrides for the fortress, any secret defenses, will be in the Senior Council chambers, which are where the old leaders used to live.

If you want to save this place as quickly as possible, you want to get Ebenezar there as fast as possible, whether the Senior Council is entrapped in the Senior Council chambers or elsewhere in the complex.
 
[X] Head right for the Senior Council Chambers
-[X]Molly: All Things Betray: 1m
-[X]Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
-[X]Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1W
 
@uju32 you have a good point, especially with those last quotes, but my problem is walking with everyone together when most of our companions do nothing when together with the most powerful ones (McCoy, Molly, Morgan), which is not wrong because they have more capabilities to affect things, but I feel bad with our war robots, veteran Warden and Lydia doing nothing behind us when they could be sent to stop/delay those seismic tremors we feel.
 
To reiterate, we are about to go into whats almost certainly a combat situation against multiple wizards, unknown defenses, and we cannot afford to kill a lot of these people because they might be wololo'd or have been lied to.
I'm completely dumbfounded by so many people wanting to split the party, here of all places. It doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense.
Doesn't make any amount of sense are you fucking crazy. This isn't fucking D&D most of the Wizards in this building will die if this building collapses including the warlocks and the ones that are just here. It doesn't matter if we find the council if the building collapses because everyone we're possibly trying to save (Mind Whammy, Warlocks, Wizards) and possibly a lot of a city around this building might collapse if we let that happen.

Holding a group of fucking 10 people most of which are directly spect into combat like Morgan and the war Weavers to try and find the council is insanely dumb. Instead of letting them do what they need to do to prevent the building from fucking collapsing around our ears.

Either because we don't have any defenses against being crushed by thousands of tons of stone because this is a Stone Works building and we're going to be in the depths of it if it crumbles down. The idea that yeah this situation with active Tremors and the base of this Stone building is going to be fun long enough to not have any attention on it is so careless for no reason.

This is on top of the fact that each group in the split up plan has people that have proper clearances to bring people with them to either talk or kill whoever they meet. The fact of the matter is we can incapacitate just as well as Dresden and his grandfather while providing cover for them. The other group has Morgan with them who is one of the heads of the Wardens who could definitely have the clearances to bring other people with him.

This idea that sending another exalt with wizard backing along with help is going to result in something bad happening is just as likely to happen because they're with us than they are separate because having such a large group of people doesn't actually help us at all.
 
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If you think the Council's members find the Halls more important than the most powerful wizards in the world, I dont know what to tell you.
I really don't think your taking into account that they made do without this place for many many years and have more than likely lost bases over said years when they were less established. This place isn't the White Council it's a matter of convenience and strategic asset due to its location. Though those who have only ever known the WC after they made this place their main headquarters would probably feel differently ill admit
The senior counsel showing themselves to be so blisteringly incompetent would cause the membership to plummet because the white council is a organization that larger recruits members by chains and chance not by actual loyalty if they think they can get away from these stupid older Wizards that can't even use modern technology or apparently keep their Base from blowing up, that are just kind of making laws and deciding their lives for them because they think they're fucking incompetent then why wouldn't they.

This is before the fact that we have membership of the white Council already sitting out the war if you don't think those numbers are going up after the fall of the white Council headquarters I don't know what to tell you.

The membership of the white Council has insurrections occasionally Carlos himself was a part of one of them even if those were black Council psyops they still happened the fact there are multiple Splinter factions within the white Council also is a thing.

The amount of already nowhere near National level of loyalty they have for their membership could not take a sustained hit such as you (Senior Council) were all present and your base blew up. You want to lead us tell us how to live our lives how to use our magic and you can't even defend yourself from a fucking pencil Pusher and you want to lead us in war fuck off.

The optics for such a loose organization is terrible and possibly imminently destructive.
 
The forces we brought obviously do not belong to the White Council.

The Halls are under attack.

Not everyone is mindfucked, but everyone is going to be some mixture of confused, scared, and/or angry.

It's not just the traitors and victims we have to worry about, but the amped up friendlies taking shots at strangers seemingly invading their sacred place of power. The ones who might see strangers fighting their nominal comrades, so they will side with them over the strangers.

The only member of our current group who might be able to nip this kind of shit in the bud is going to be McCoy. Morgan is well known but not particularly popular and he doesn't command the respect and power of a Senior Councillor like the Blackstaff. He could also be perceived as another traitor, since that seems to be going around and will be leading a group of strangers through the Halls.

Splitting up just dilutes our ability to deal with the real threats, opens us up to greater attrition, and makes it more likely we will have to kill friendlies.
 
The forces we brought obviously do not belong to the White Council.

The Halls are under attack.

Not everyone is mindfucked, but everyone is going to be some mixture of confused, scared, and/or angry.

It's not just the traitors and victims we have to worry about, but the amped up friendlies taking shots at strangers seemingly invading their sacred place of power. The ones who might see strangers fighting their nominal comrades, so they will side with them over the strangers.

The only member of our current group who might be able to nip this kind of shit in the bud is going to be McCoy. Morgan is well known but not particularly popular and he doesn't command the respect and power of a Senior Councillor like the Blackstaff. He could also be perceived as another traitor, since that seems to be going around and will be leading a group of strangers through the Halls.

Splitting up just dilutes our ability to deal with the real threats, opens us up to greater attrition, and makes it more likely we will have to kill friendlies.
If this place collapses we won't need to worry about any friendlies or anyone in this place really and it'll be questionable whether or not we can survive it collapsing. There's also the fact that we are just as capable of knocking people out as killing them I don't get this fucking obsession with needing to pretend that it's super easier to kill someone than it is to knock them unconscious especially when they have Supernatural durability like Wizards.

Morgan is one of the leaders of the white council's police and they think they're going to try and shoot him on site are you serious. It doesn't matter how popular he is, he has a spell breaking sword and a remit to kill you if you try to use Magic on him. Never mind the fact that he's a senior member of the white Council not on the council itself but he is a known presence.

Which real threat are you talking about because the real threat in this place are the warlocks which are attempting to break the foundations of this stone work building that we're sending Sophia to possibly unfuck and the white Council membership that we can easily knock on conscious with Dresden his grandfather and a war Weaver. Getting to the senior Council isn't a win condition if this building collapses it just means this becomes a rescue effort to try and save as many people from the rubble of the hundreds of tons of stone work on top of them.
 
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@Degorium I think you just have a different reading of canon here to the point where I'm not sure if I should engage. I can't tell if you really read my earlier post either. I'll just quote what Uju said earlier and leave it at that.
Of course, this entire argument is irrelevant, and based on false premises.

The best place to save the Hidden Halls from is from the Senior Council chambers.
This fortress was built by the Fae, for a Fae lord. Ergo, any secret controls and overrides for the fortress, any secret defenses, will be in the Senior Council chambers, which are where the old leaders used to live.

If you want to save this place as quickly as possible, you want to get Ebenezar there as fast as possible, whether the Senior Council is entrapped in the Senior Council chambers or elsewhere in the complex.
 
I can't tell if you really read my earlier post either. I'll just quote what Uju said earlier and leave it at that.
On the point of different views about Canon that's fine sometimes those are irreconcilable between people that's fine but notice the split up plan does not mean leave the senior counsel alone it just says do not leave someone who is very obviously trying to collapse the building to just collapse it unopposed.

The concentration of force of having two exalts multiple War robots and wizards meant for combat on a single push is both wasteful and really wishful thinking that hopefully nothing happens with that obvious tremoring.

The plan is to break the building and have the fighting spill out onto the streets. If they have no concern for trying to capture the hidden halls it doesn't matter what Secrets or possible controls for the building there are.
Tear down the Hall. Kill the brave and drive out the craven. The answer is stark and terribile. If no one stops this the Hidden Halls will not stay hidden long.
 
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The plan is to break the building and have the fighting spill out onto the streets. If they have no concern for trying to capture the hidden halls it doesn't matter what Secrets or possible controls for the building there are
They need to get through it's defences before doing that which is why such things are relevant. Otherwise they could've done this whenever they wanted.
 
They need to get through it's defences before doing that which is why such things are relevant. Otherwise they could've done this whenever they wanted.
They're inside of the Hidden halls Shaking or breaking things either using Magic or with regular explosives suffice to say the defenses as far as they matter have been either circumvented or are actively being destroyed.

The building is already shaking I don't know what else to say the Tremors can be felt before we even got into the building. Finding the council when people are inside of the building fucking the foundation is good leaving them to continue to fuck the foundation uncontested is bad.
most the terms of the equation are there if they care to look and you very much worry that your present company is good at this sort of math. The walls shake, once and then again twice in quick succession.
The explosions are coming from inside the house I'm not sure why expecting the wards to protect anything makes sense.
 
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They've already been breached they're inside blowing the place up. They had privileged access the weakness of every security system ever.
I don't think so. Odin should've told Merlin of the issue off-screen. Apparently the defenses are still up-
Are they planning to literally blow up the supports of the Hidden Halls or are they talking about magical shields or... Do they want to disrupt the masquerade again and does Nemesis still want to use this plan?
Literal explosions in the actual rock along with taking down the enchantments that would prevent that from happening.
 
I don't think so. Odin should've told Merlin of the issue off-screen. Apparently the defenses are still up-
Okay we've gone back and forth on my point of they are inside of the building actively undermining the physical structure of it they apparently have not taken all of the magical defensive down but they have taken enough down that they are inside of the building actively causing it to shake attempting to break it.

What about that situation says it should continue uncontested and expect anything possibly good to happen even if we get this in your council members at best they do nearly heinous amounts of damage to the wards and physical structure of the Hidden Halls and at worst they actually just full on collapse the whole building so why should they be allowed to continue uncontested.
 
best they do nearly heinous amounts of damage to the wards and physical structure of the Hidden Halls and at worst they actually just full on collapse the whole building so why should they be allowed to continue uncontested.
Again. It's said that you'd need the power of a God to destroy the place if you can't bring the wards down. If they want to bring them down they most likely need root access. The HH have weathered attacks before.
 
Again. It's said that you'd need the power of a God to destroy the place if you can't bring the wards down. If they want to bring them down they most likely need root access. The HH have weathered attack before.
The quote that you are bringing to bear says a God is needed to bust into the place they already have access to the insides of the building. The wards are strong enough to keep out a God is the quote. The building itself is not God proof. Consider the following they are inside of the wards that are capable of keeping out a God they have privileged access to the actual physical material of the foundations of the building.

They have no interest in keeping it and are attempting to break the building they don't need to contest the wards that keep out gods they need to contest the actual physical protections of the building whether those are magical or otherwise and it seems like they are successfully doing that because the building itself is shaking.
 
They have no interest in keeping it and are attempting to break the building they don't need to contest the wards that keep out gods they need to contest the actual physical protections of the building whether those are magical or otherwise and it seems like they are successfully doing that because the building itself is shaking.
That doesn't make sense. Either they have to get past the wards protecting the HH or they don't and DP's post says that the Crown vision told us they plan to which means they haven't yet. Most likely they'd need root access to do that.
 
That doesn't make sense. Either they have to get past the wards protecting the HH or they don't and DP's post says that the Crown vision told us they plan to which means they haven't yet. Most likely they'd need root access to do that.
We ourselves slipped past wards and directly struck the owner of them this Arc. They are inherently selective. Not completely inclusive in their protection and don't always directly correlate to protecting physical objects. There's a lot of reasons why the words that keep out God's wouldn't affect the Wizards that are already inside of the house. There's a lot of reasons why wards that are on the inside wouldn't affect us trying to stop the Wizards on the inside of the house either they're not for one intelligent for another selective.

This is true in all three of the sources of magic that we're running for this Quest Sorcerer has specific targeting parameters so does mage the Ascension and so does Dresden Files there is no such thing as an all-inclusive ward that protects from large amounts of things there can be Wards stacked on top of each other but they're not the same thing.
 
We ourselves slipped past wards and directly struck the owner of them this Arc.
Can you please tell me whatever your referring to instead of being vague? This doesn't sound relevant to the situation at hand. At any rate if they want to bring the enchantments down they'd most likely need root access which is where the Senior Council Chambers would be. Your post just reads like supposition.
 
[] Infiltrate through the water system, it might lead you to someplace awkward, but at least you'll be inside the wards
That won't do, it has to be a body of liquid. Luckily next attempt success a rush of water into a still basin that comes up about to your knees. The room is dark and silent, somewhere underground and filled with the earthy smells of decomposition and yeast. Yours is not the only basin here. There are eight of them arrayed the length of the room, each connected to two pipes, one of which is water.
Can you please tell me whatever your referring to instead of being vague? This doesn't sound relevant to the situation at hand. At any rate if they want to bring the enchantments down they'd most likely need root access which is where the Senior Council Chambers would be. Your post just reads like supposition.
Here you are. You are the one making a supposition by the about the wards being able to defend from beings with privileged access not me. All wards in Dresden files/Sorcerer/Mage the Ascension must be targeted against specific beings on creation not against all threats that is base cannon and magical system things. The fact that white Council membership are definitely keyed into the wards even if they don't have root access means that they do on some level circumvent security.
 
That doesn't make sense. Either they have to get past the wards protecting the HH or they don't and DP's post says that the Crown vision told us they plan to which means they haven't yet. Most likely they'd need root access to do that.
They have passed through the most powerful protections, the ones that can keep a god out, because they have authorization to enter without problems. Now they are destroying slowly, but enough that we have already started to feel the tremors of the walls, the 2nd layer of protection, which reinforces the structure of the Halls themselves, and this layer is not as powerful as the first.

I suspect, as I said before, that the one doing this at the moment is not Peabody, but rather his lackeys, while the man himself is guarding the Senior Council's prison, because it is logical that we really want them out. This is because Merlin is a real threat even among the Council and a defense expert who can reverse all the destruction work already done, so I think he has two plans.

In the best case scenario for him, he delays us long enough for his lackeys to knock down the walls and bury everyone (himself, the lackeys, the Senior Council, the wardens, us and our entourage) and, if not destroying the White Council, at least weakening it enough to be destroyed by the Reds and the many other enemies of the wizards.

In the worst case scenario for him, we manage to release several very angry archmages but too late for Merlin to fully rebuild the structural reinforcements and have enough time only for an evacuation, since the council will "only" have immense political chaos both for losing their best-known center of power at the moment and for having allowed a conspiracy of this size to exist for so long, even with members within the Senior Council itself, which will not help the war situation at all, where they were already under a lot of pressure to equalize the Reds.

At least in this last one we can help by summoning our own troops, aided by experienced wardens to hold the pressure while the WC gets in order to join the counterattack. This will also hold our attention and give the Outsiders more breathing room.

Remember everyone, we are the Outsiders' greatest enemy at the moment, for having ended so many important plots of theirs in such a short time, for severely restricting their greatest infiltrator with our Crown (since we saw that Nemesis is forced to keep the plans in a state of flux as much as possible for Free Will, "what is not yet recorded in the Book of Ages" I think he called it in that vision we had in Demonreach, to be able to confuse our vision) and, most basically, for being an Exateld. They won't mind sacrificing as many people as necessary to distract us.

That's my reasoning for my vote.

(not to mention I kind of helped make this plan so, although I thought a lot about the reasons, I also feel a bit of loyalty towards him lol)
 
Here you are. You are the one making a supposition by the about the wards being able to defend from beings with privileged access not me. All wards in Dresden files/Sorcerer/Mage the Ascension must be targeted against specific beings on creation not against all threats that is base cannon and magical system things. The fact that white Council membership are definitely keyed into the wards even if they don't have root access means that they do on some level circumvent security.
Thanks but that doesn't seem relevant. We weren't attacking the building we were infiltrating it and his place likely didn't have centuries of reinforcing magics and leyline access.

I don't know why your saying they have privileged access. It should be the Senior Council that does not random members. That Warlocks could destroy the place without bringing the wards down first is an odd determination. I don't know what you mean by specific beings either. You can set wards to deal with hostile magic you don't have to be extremely specific about that just what they do in response.

They have passed through the most powerful protections, the ones that can keep a god out, because they have authorization to enter without problems. Now they are destroying slowly, but enough that we have already started to feel the tremors of the walls, the 2nd layer of protection, which reinforces the structure of the Halls themselves, and this layer is not as powerful as the first.
I don't think this is accurate. We were never given those kinds of details on the wards AFAIK. We do know that they're also layered inside and that they draw power from the leylines so I doubt just blasting through them is viable.
 
We weren't attacking the building we were infiltrating it and his place likely didn't have centuries of reinforcing magics and leyline access.
Wards primarily are additional defense they're not always structured to protect the actual structure of a building for one. Primarily they defend against people coming in intruding infiltrating or otherwise fucking around on the inside of them not actually supporting the superstructure of the place they're around. Almost certainly not against people who are allowed to be on the inside of them. Two that's not how wards work being reinforced or having leyline access don't change the mechanics of how they work.
don't know why your saying they have privileged access.
In cyber security privileged access means that you are an authorized user of a system even if you do not have root or admin access if you possess a password that allows you to access a network or terminal you possess privileged access. These members of the white Council who are allowed to enter the hidden halls and be in the hidden Halls without the Wards turning on them have privileged access.
That Warlocks could destroy the place without bringing the wards down first is an odd determination.
Wards are enchantments place to defend against outer threats not to reinforce the structure of a building if you mean there are spells in place that might be hooked into the wards that would prevent them from blowing the place down I would say okay but Wards are not structural support magic in any sense. I am not making that up across Dresden Files Sorcerer And made the Ascension Wards are about specifically either alert, defense or consequence for intruding against them not actually reinforcing the structure that they are a part of.
You can set wards to deal with hostile magic you don't have to be extremely specific about that just what they do in response.
They would need to be extremely specific about that you would need to Target white council members performing specific kinds of magic in specific places in the hidden Halls they are not intelligent they are parameters that give penalties laid across an area not intelligent deciders of who and how people are using magic in them. There might be an enchantment that is against non-white council members performing hostile Magic but the people that are inside possibly ruining the place are not those non-white Council magic users.
I don't think this is accurate. We were never given those kinds of details on the wards AFAIK. We do know that they're also layered inside and that they draw power from the leylines so I doubt just blasting through them is viable.
The systems for how Wards work means that the get stronger for having late line access more resistant for having leyline access but not any smarter for having lay line access. They would specifically need to Target their own membership with the wards for them to be affected by the dampening or resistive effect of the wards.

You know what I'm just going to post the rules I'm just going to post the actual rules I'm going to go to the Dresden File Wiki and pull up all the information about Wards and then I'm going to go to mage and pull up all the information about Wards from there and I'm going to go to sorcerer revised and do the same thing because I feel like I'm not getting my point across about how this shit is supposed to actually function.
 
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