Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)The Crown said nothing about explosives, magical or otherwise. I quote:

Tremors speak to seismic activity.
Which I would assume in this instance to be spells, or rituals, or spirits.
Not hundreds of tons of explosives.

You are making an assumption about explosives that doesnt appear to be borne out by the evidence we are seeing.




2) Why? He has quite literally been in the confidence of the highest levels for at least a decade,
He canonically had a Senior Council member murdered in their own rooms in Council HQ and got away clean.
He walked into Council HQ with an Outsider inside a bottle.

McCoy literally just told us that he almost got trapped this way, outside, where he was on his guard.
Nobody expects that kinda shit in their own home.
Noone's on guard in their own safe space.




3)As the citation I provided showed from Summer Knight, it was/is customary for the Council to rely on other wizards to seal large numbers of wizards in to meetings to prevent supernatural intrusion.It might literally be as simple as a party of mind-controlled Wardens slapping an additional pre-made ward prepared by someone else on top of that.

We know they are possible to make in both World of Darkness and Dresden Files; hell, we see Harry make one for Molly to protect herself in Turn Coat, and three Senior Council wizards couldnt deactivate it quickly or safely because it was fail-deadly, and could have blown up a hilltop if fucked with.

I dont know, just speculating.



4) The entire Senior Council was canonically locked out of the NeverNever for almost a day by enemy magic.
It was literally a major plot point in Dead Beat
Luccio frowned, then glanced across the table at Ramirez.
"Three days ago, Zulu time," Ramirez provided quietly.
"I've not slept," Luccio said. "Between that and all the travel, I lose track." She took another drink of ale and said, "The attack was vicious.They were coming for the Senior Council, and their sorcerers managed to cut us off from escaping into the Nevernever for nearly a day. We lost thirty-eight Wardens that day, in fighting all over Sicily."
I sat there for a moment, stunned. Thirty-eight. Stars and stones, there were only about two hundred Wardens on the Council. Not every wizard had the kind of talent that made them dangerous in a face-to-face confrontation. Most of those who did were Wardens. In a single day, the Red Court had killed nearly 20 percent of our fighting force.
"They paid for it," Morgan rumbled quietly. "But… they seemed almost mad to die in order to kill us. Driven. I saw four different death curses unleashed that day. I saw vampires climb over mounds of their own dead without so much as slowing down. We must have taken twenty of their warriors for every loss of our own." He closed his eyes and his sour face was suddenly masked with very real and very human grief. "They kept coming."
"We had many wounded," Luccio said. "So many wounded. As soon as the Senior Council was able to open the ways into the Nevernever, we retreated to the paths through Faerie. And we were pursued."
I sat up straight. "What?"
Morgan nodded. "The Red Court followed us into the territory of the Sidhe," he said.
"They had to know," I said quietly. "They had to know that by pressing the attack in Faerie itself they would anger the Sidhe. They've just declared war on Summer and Winter alike."
"Yes," Morgan said in a flat voice. "But it didn't stop them. They attacked us as we retreated. And…" He glanced at Luccio as if in appeal.
She gave him a firm look and said to me, "They had called demons to assist them." She inhaled slowly. "Not simply beasts from the Nevernever. They had gone to the Netherworld. They had called Outsiders."
I took a longer drink of Mac's ale. Outsiders. Demons were bad enough, but they were at least something I was fairly familiar with. The reaches of the Nevernever, the world of spirit and magic that surrounds the mortal world, are filled with all kinds of beings. Most of them really don't give a damn about mortal affairs, and we are nothing but a remote and unimportant curiosity to them. When beings of the spirit world are interested in mortal business, it's for a good reason. The ones who like to eat us, hurt us, or generally terrify us are what wizards commonly refer to as demons, as a general term. They're bad enough.
Outsiders, though, were so rarely spoken of that they were all but a rumor. I wasn't really clear on all of the details, but the Outsiders had been the servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones, an ancient race of demons or gods who had once ruled the mortal world, but who had apparently been cast out and locked away from our reality.
There was a specific Law of Magic against contacting them-Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates. No one wanted to be the one suddenly suspected of opening ways for the Outsiders to enter the mortal world. The Wardens absolutely did not play around with violations of the Laws of Magic. Their entire purpose in life was to protect the Council-first from violators of the seven Laws, and then from everyone else.
I eyed the folded grey cloak on the table in front of me.
"I thought only mortal magic could call up Outsiders," I said quietly.
Luccio said quietly, "You are correct."
My stomach lurched a little. Someone had told the Red Court where to find the Council. Someone had blocked off their escape route to the Nevernever so strongly that the most powerful wizards on the planet had required a full day to open them again. And someone had begun calling up Outsiders in numbers, sending them to attack the White Council.
The Council is not what it was, Cowl had said. It has rotted from the inside. It will fall. Soon.
"The Wardens fell back to fight a holding action against the Red Court so that our wounded could escape to safety," Luccio reported, her crisp voice at odds with her weary eyes. "That was when they loosed the Outsiders upon us. We lost another twenty-three Wardens in the first moments of combat, and many more were wounded." There was silence while she took a long pull from her bottle, emptying it, then setting it down sharply on the table, anger flickering in her eyes. "If Senior Council members McCoy and Liberty had not come to our aid, we might have all died there. Even with them, we managed to hold them only long enough for the Gatekeeper and the Merlin to raise a ward behind us, to give us time to escape."
"A ward?" I blurted. "Are you telling me that they stonewalled an entire army of vampires and demons? With one ward?"
"You don't get to be Merlin of the White Council by collecting bottle caps," Ramirez said, his voice dry.
I glanced aside at Ramirez. He grinned at me and swigged beer.
That level of power has been previously demonstrated as a planned event, so it would not be surprising to see it here.
IMO.

===
Do remember that Peabody here is essentially the field director for the archmage-turned-Outsider called Ashraaaf.
He's not acting alone or without support.
2) Because he acted by stealth and never left anything to oppose save for his escape plan, which didn't actually work. Putting the senior council in a box is not an easy trick to pull; he shouldn't have been able to set that up so quickly or left something sitting around for such a long time without someone else noticing.

Hitting people alone is one thing, together is quite another. In any case it's worth noting that he failed to contain McCoy and trying required expending two of the very few conspirators aware of what's happening.


3) Those sort of wards don't work like that and wouldn't be necessary in the Hidden Halls. You either raise a circle against magic or against physical forces, if you want both that means a fancier array with fancier components. Even then the people inside have a say. Constructing a trap which provides enough leverage to overcome the senior council would be exceedingly obvious and suspicious.

Recall that the grey council has existed for a few years at this point. They don't know who's undermining the council, but they know it's at least one highly placed member. Peabody got by on being an innocuous background clerk bothering people about paperwork nobody with any power really wanted to do. If he started carving runes into the walls it'd raise flags.

4) That was the active full court press of a major power keeping them out of neutral territory. Peabody is alone. For him to do this it's require the work to largely already be completed, and missing that in their own territory is profoundly incompetent.
 
On the nuke stuff; I doubt Peabody could acquire one on this timetable, but we did technically give him a partial answer to tech bane. Really we gave it to the entire council, it's just a matter of if they've realized it and how much they'd be willing to trust it.

We gave them the Big Book of Yomi Wan, which includes a good portion of our Wicked City notes. HMP gives us nearly unquestionable assurance of the loyalty of our summons, but it doesn't change their base abilities. If they wanted to a summoner could pull them up the regular way, store the demon in a nonmagical receptacle like any other spirit, then squirt them into some tech they want to use before their aura has time to break it.

Not sure how much a sane wizard would trust that, but cyber devils are small enough to be tempting to make use of at a more general level. They also have a really obvious lever to exploit once their nature has been explained to you; names.

The bulk of their population is nameless and hate it; as spirits they need them to build an identity but can't give one to themselves. Our first few summons provide great examples of this. Every one of them began to pick properties for themselves, many they technically could have had previously but just didn't, immediately after being named.

My read is that it's not just that they didn't have the properties they took up, but that they didn't have the fields for those properties to go in until someone "personed" them.

Molly is a baby primordial, so it makes sense she'd be extra good at defining spirits. That doesn't mean other people can't do so as well though, we even see Uriel tell off Harry for calling him Mr. Sunshine because it's dangerous for a mortal to play with names like that.

Even for a regular summoner pulling cyber devils, naming them in exchange for service, then binding them against their new true name could be a very effective tactic. I wouldn't be surprised if being the one to name a spirit gave you even more power over it than normal.

Even if we don't see it now I wouldn't be surprised if remnants of the conspiracy started using tricks like that in an effort to address the magitech edge of our faction.
 
I mean Uju is right about splitting up here. Only Sophia can get rid of mind control and we need both political authority and power to deescalate while minimizing casualties.

What we don't need to do is split our combat power then have each side deal with traps and the like alone. Molly's rapidly dwindling essence is countered by having so many other assets on hand, splitting up makes that more of an issue. I'd rather not the weaker combat party have to deal with Luccio and or Peabody with Outsider mooks alone or something.

[X] uju32
 
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I'll put it this way - electric doesn't mean electronic, and batteries used in military systems are not batteries used in household devices. If Dresden can drive a car, and there's an enchanted phoneboard in headquarters, then the bomb is certainly viable.
It also needs not be inside the Halls. Being nearby would work.
We have seen techbane fuck with automatic weapons and even radio, both 19th century shit.
The Hidden Halls has an enchanted phoneboard, but no electrical lights.
Just magic.

Again, you are vastly underestimating the issues. I think, at least, just my opinion.

As for outside the Halls, any attack at that point would run into the protective magic wards designed to shed anything short of an actual god, which would tank it along with everything else.
No effect on the Halls. Sucks for Edinburgh, though.


Obtaining enriched fissile material if you are Lawbreaking is easy. As is obtaining nukes themselves. There are missing nukes IRL. That at least one or several of them are in supernatural hands (likely fomor and quite possibly warlocks of some kind) is very plausible. Obtaining enriched material is easier.

From there one has to speculate, but I am betting that entropic magic or time magic can be used to affect the rate of nuclear decay and radioactivity. From there, you enchant two pieces of subcritical mass to lower its radiocativity, rendering them temporarily inert, push them together to produce critical mass (still inert), then encase them in a sturdy casing (possibly enchanted). And you are done. Now you break the enchantments, and you have yourself a nuke. The casing just needs to survive long enough for the reaction to really start going. For additional yield, instead of turning the magic off, turn in around to increase the rate of nuclear decay (that's basic entropic curse by the way).

And we know that magic can mess with time and probabilistic events.
1) Transmuting radioactive isotopes like U-235 and Pu-238 with magic requires Matter 5 + Forces, which does not appear to be thick on the ground in the Dresdenverse.

Nevermind the idea of actually stealing fissile materials from national stockpiles without notice from mortals OR supernaturals; Butcher told us that nuclear testing was detectable magically and led to the White Council investigating in the beginning.
And the only missing nukes are in physically inaccessible places, hostile even for most supernaturals.


2) You are doing a lot of speculative handwaving here to skip over shit that takes thousands of people, millions of man hours and the equivalent of hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of infrastructure.
They're wizards, not Exalts. They still have to put in the work.

Specifically, working with nuclear forces appears to be a Rank 5 Sphere effect in Mage.

Nevermind that you are talking about taking this into the Hidden Halls, one of the most heavily warded places in the world, and assume that your hostile probability manipulation effect will work there.
Or that this is precisely the sort of thing that even supernaturals pay attention to.

To be clear?
I find it entirely plausible that entropic or time magics can be used to modify or enhance weapons technology, even nuclear tech.But wholesale replacement as you are suggesting here is entirely too far fetched as described.

Literally easier to brew sarin or VX or novichok and dump it in the tunnels; thats only Matter 3, as far as I can tell.
And frankly, its something Im expecting.


Not for this purpose. Wizards know what nukes are and where to get them.
1) Nukes are not designed to be man-portable.
There's a reason the only two such things in the US arsenal are the Davy Crockett with a sub-kiloton yield and a weight of around 20 kilos, and the SADM which is around 30 kilos and 10 tons to 1kt.

2)The Red Court owns Latin America. Brazil is a nuclear threshold state; both it and Argentina had extant nuclear weapons programs in the Cold War, and both still have nuclear power programs. So exactly why do you think the Reds have left theirs alone, and have even outsourced chemical weapons to the Fomor?


On the nuke stuff; I doubt Peabody could acquire one on this timetable, but we did technically give him a partial answer to tech bane. Really we gave it to the entire council, it's just a matter of if they've realized it and how much they'd be willing to trust it.
Eh.

They knew Mikaboshi before we showed up, and he's not the only Yama King who uses modern tech. Non-technically inclined vampires like Leinth Skavis recognized the cyberdevils on sight. I dont really think it changes anything on the technical end; evil wizards are not going to treat bound cyberdevils any better than Yama Kings, or trust them, and the devils will return the favor.

What the Big Book of Yomi Wan does change is on the political side, because it made it significantly easier to recognize specific factions, contact them, and even find your way around the geography.

I mean Uju is right about splitting up here. Only Sophia can get rid of mind control and we need both political authority and power to deescalate while minimizing casualties.

What we don't need to do is split our combat power then have each side deal with traps and the like alone. Molly's rapidly dwindling essence is countered by having so many other assets on hand, splitting up makes that more of an issue. I'd rather not the weaker combat party have to deal with Luccio and or Peabody with Outsider mooks alone or something.

[X] uju32
^^^
Also worth noting that the more people we have at a task, the quicker it will go. If we have the whole party as a single murderball, we can just roll over opposition fast and with minimal casualties, instead of getting bogged down or having to burn Essence.

Sophia is the only one who can do (quick)exorcism.
Lash is the only one who can handle environmental poisons like VX or sarin.
Molly is the only one who can handle high-end counterspelling and unweaving.
McCoy is the only one with political authority.

Everyone here serves a purpose. Splitting up weakens us.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Sep 17, 2024 at 11:37 AM, finished with 52 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Divide and Conquer
    -[X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    --[X] Molly, McCoy, Carlos, Tiffany, 1 War Weaver and A combat Sorcerer head to the Senior Council Chamber
    ---[X] Molly: All Things Betray: 1 WP
    ---[X] Molly: Rage Recast No Cost
    ---[X] Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    --[X] Morgan, Sophia, Harry, Lydia, Olivia, 4 War Weavers, 2 combat Sorcerers and the 2 Hand agents look for the source of the tremors
    ---[X] Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
    -[X] Stunt: You let out a sigh as you feel the tension of their enemies' plan already in action "Peabody is literally trying to tear down the walls of the Council headquarters and he certainly wants to stop us from getting the Defense Specialist in the form of Merlin" You say as the shadows around darken and the walls begin to tell the secrets of this ancient fortress "We have to split up or even if we get the Senior Council, the entire White Council will be homeless."
    [X] Head right for the Senior Council Chambers
    -[X]Molly: All Things Betray: 1m
    -[X]Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    -[X]Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
    [X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    [X] Plan Divide and Conquer
    -[X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    --[X] Molly, McCoy, Carlos, Tiffany, 1 War Weaver and A combat Sorcerer head to the Senior Council Chamber
    ---[X] Molly: All Things Betray: 1 WP
    ---[X] Molly: Rage Recast No Cost
    ---[X] Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    --[X] Morgan, Sophia, Harry, Lydia, Olivia, 4 War Weavers, 2 combat Sorcerers and the 2 Hand agents look for the source of the tremors
    ---[X] Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
 
I'm not really sure what people are expecting. We are still in the 'unknown unknowns' stage. If a threat assessment can't be done you shouldn't be splitting the party it's that simple. Our mission is to save the White Council Wizards not the Hidden Halls anyway.
 
Eh.

They knew Mikaboshi before we showed up, and he's not the only Yama King who uses modern tech. Non-technically inclined vampires like Leinth Skavis recognized the cyberdevils on sight. I dont really think it changes anything on the technical end; evil wizards are not going to treat bound cyberdevils any better than Yama Kings, or trust them, and the devils will return the favor.

What the Big Book of Yomi Wan does change is on the political side, because it made it significantly easier to recognize specific factions, contact them, and even find your way around the geography
I don't expect to see it here, but I think you're overestimating the level of detailed knowledge the council at large had.

They knew he existed, but the standard we have for the preexisting knowledge available to mortals from Bob has wizards thinking fashion trends were differences in species.

It's not impossible for people to have learned about this stuff, but it is obscure and not related to a topic many would research. What we did gave very clear information about the particulars of an obscure but fairly readily available type of spirit then personally demonstrate how it could be used to solve their problems.

The stuff elder vampires recognize isn't the same as what a wizard might, or really seeing the full implications of a fact in action.

What I'm suggesting doesn't require treating the cyber devils kindly, just tempting them with a now obvious type of bait.
I'm not really sure what people are expecting. We are still in the 'unknown unknowns' stage. If a threat assessment can't be done you shouldn't be splitting the party it's that simple. Our mission is to save the White Council Wizards not the Hidden Halls anyway.
If the council loses the hidden halls then they're pretty screwed for multiple reasons. They have a lot of resources packed away here, and people relying on its defenses, that would be lost or damaged. Then after that they'd be scrambling for cover while the vampires hunt them down.

The politics internal and external are of serious concern as well. They don't need to spark a civil war to so completely damage the council's reputation as a faction that it disintegrates. Peabody's failed escape attempt in canon shook things badly, this is a significantly bigger deal.

Powers who want to take their place like the fomor did with the reds would start moving, and wizards running scared would start dying quickly.

This is solidly the bad guys forgetting they could totally win the whole time till we showed up territory. Honestly, I take it being a serious threat as strong evidence that we've categorically made this situation worse with our involvement.
 
They have a lot of resources packed away here, and people relying on its defenses, that would be lost or damaged. Then after that they'd be scrambling for cover while the vampires hunt them down.
...

You don't seriously think that the Hidden Halls is the global scale organization's only base do you? You realize the WC has existed for much longer than this place right?

The politics internal and external are of serious concern as well. They don't need to spark a civil war to so completely damage the council's reputation as a faction that it disintegrates. Peabody's failed escape attempt in canon shook things badly, this is a significantly bigger deal.
This doesn't dispute my statement in anyway. I'm assuming it wasn't meant to.
 
You don't seriously think that the Hidden Halls is the global scale organization's only base do you? You realize the WC has existed for much longer than this place right?
I think BronzeTongue meant it's not the only one, but it's the main one that they spent centuries reinforcing to defend themselves from enemies, centuries storing dangerous or valuable things there, as it's the most defended and has a center of the NeverNever Paths that are practically invaluable to wizards.

The loss of that is second only to the death of several of the Senior Council.
 
I think BronzeTongue meant it's not the only one, but it's the main one that they spent centuries reinforcing to defend themselves from enemies, centuries storing dangerous or valuable things there, as it's the most defended and has a center of the NeverNever Paths that are practically invaluable to wizards.

The loss of that is second only to the death of several of the Senior Council.
It isn't actually invaluable though just a well used asset. This place wasn't built it was bought in a deal from someone else. They very likely have other bases far older that have been reinforced for even longer if not as thoroughly. It would be a major asset loss but BronzeTongue made it sound like if they lost this place they wouldn't have multiple defended fallback points and would loose the war.

The destruction of the Hidden Halls would not be the destruction of the WC that's just a false narrative. That's like saying if the White House got blown up America would be done for, it ignores many other factors. The most important thing here is making sure the Senior Council doesn't get killed off. Then they really would be screwed.
 
I think BronzeTongue meant it's not the only one, but it's the main one that they spent centuries reinforcing to defend themselves from enemies, centuries storing dangerous or valuable things there, as it's the most defended and has a center of the NeverNever Paths that are practically invaluable to wizards.

The loss of that is second only to the death of several of the Senior Council.
Its not.
I provided the explicit quote; they have only been here maybe 500 years.
Its valuabl because of its proximity to the Way nexus.

The Senior Council is a way more critical asset here. You are focusing on the wrong things.
What I'm suggesting doesn't require treating the cyber devils kindly, just tempting them with a now obvious type of bait.
I dont agree, but I dont think this is the place or time for this discussion.
If the council loses the hidden halls then they're pretty screwed for multiple reasons. They have a lot of resources packed away here, and people relying on its defenses, that would be lost or damaged. Then after that they'd be scrambling for cover while the vampires hunt them down.
Hard disagree.
The Council has moved several times in the last thousand years. They have only been resident here for 500 years.
Its a nice crib, with a strategic location, but it isnt critical to their survival. The Senior Council is.

Im not saying that the Hidden Halls arent important.
If nothing else, the process of trying to destroy the Hidden Halls would devastate Edinburgh, which is to be avoided. But for the Council, saving the Senior Council, the accumulated knowledge, firepower and connections they represent takes priority.

Worse, if the Gatekeeper is also entrapped, we also lose security at the Outer Gates.
And thats a catastrophe for everybody.


This is like arguing about whether the White House and Pentagon buildings are more important to the survival of the US than the President and the nuclear arsenal.
The buildings are nice, and have a lot of shit, but they arent mission critical.
 
...

You don't seriously think that the Hidden Halls is the global scale organization's only base do you? You realize the WC has existed for much longer than this place right?
Yes. This is however their largest facility and their formal capitol. Losing that vastly more significant than losing some random fortress.

Especially because of the war and the canon existence of rising powers looking for an opening to expand. If people like the fomor start to dogpile because they smell blood the council won't be able to cope when they're already struggling with a peer.


This doesn't dispute my statement in anyway. I'm assuming it wasn't meant to
I think BronzeTongue meant it's not the only one, but it's the main one that they spent centuries reinforcing to defend themselves from enemies, centuries storing dangerous or valuable things there, as it's the most defended and has a center of the NeverNever Paths that are practically invaluable to wizards.

The loss of that is second only to the death of several of the Senior Council.
This, but also the threat of serious compounding political problems.

My point was that the loss of their seat of power is a huge blow to the council's legitimacy to its members and peers. The conspiracy's rebels shook the council and tore friction points open into rifts. Losing the Halls to it is a damning indictment of their strength and competence at a time when it's already stressed.

Imagine for a moment that the Cold War went hot, but only with conventional weapons. Then a year or two in a secret confederate conspiracy in the senate successfully nuked DC off the face of the map while simultaneously damaging several key nuclear facilities. It's revealed in the process that they'd been using CIA/FBI resources to blackmail, kidnap, and kill anyone necessary to support their goal of tearing the country apart since the civil war.

This is worse for the council than that would be for the US.
 
1) Transmuting radioactive isotopes like U-235 and Pu-238 with magic requires Matter 5 + Forces, which does not appear to be thick on the ground in the Dresdenverse.

Nevermind the idea of actually stealing fissile materials from national stockpiles without notice from mortals OR supernaturals; Butcher told us that nuclear testing was detectable magically and led to the White Council investigating in the beginning.
And the only missing nukes are in physically inaccessible places, hostile even for most supernaturals.


2) You are doing a lot of speculative handwaving here to skip over shit that takes thousands of people, millions of man hours and the equivalent of hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of infrastructure.
They're wizards, not Exalts. They still have to put in the work.

Specifically, working with nuclear forces appears to be a Rank 5 Sphere effect in Mage.

Nevermind that you are talking about taking this into the Hidden Halls, one of the most heavily warded places in the world, and assume that your hostile probability manipulation effect will work there.
Or that this is precisely the sort of thing that even supernaturals pay attention to.

To be clear?
I find it entirely plausible that entropic or time magics can be used to modify or enhance weapons technology, even nuclear tech.But wholesale replacement as you are suggesting here is entirely too far fetched as described.

Literally easier to brew sarin or VX or novichok and dump it in the tunnels; thats only Matter 3, as far as I can tell.
And frankly, its something Im expecting.
1) No need to transmute. You steel enriched material from mortal facilities.
2) The issues are engineering, not physics for the most parts. That's the gist of it - if you can directly manipulate stuff like force, entropy, time, space, etc, most of the complexity falls away. Fission and fusion are conceptually very simple, and complicated to use practically because of the engineering involved.

Brewing chemical agents is using magic to obtain mundane effects. It's substituting magic for technology to obtain a product of technology. Stopping radioactive decay locally and using that to make a fission bomb on a timer is an example of magitech, where magic and physics work together.
1) Nukes are not designed to be man-portable.
There's a reason the only two such things in the US arsenal are the Davy Crockett with a sub-kiloton yield and a weight of around 20 kilos, and the SADM which is around 30 kilos and 10 tons to 1kt.

2)The Red Court owns Latin America. Brazil is a nuclear threshold state; both it and Argentina had extant nuclear weapons programs in the Cold War, and both still have nuclear power programs. So exactly why do you think the Reds have left theirs alone, and have even outsourced chemical weapons to the Fomor?
1) Truck-portable is entirely viable. And there are several kiloton munitons portable by several people with enhanced strength.
2) Who says they don't have nuclear weapons?
 
Its not.
I provided the explicit quote; they have only been here maybe 500 years.
Its valuabl because of its proximity to the Way nexus.

The Senior Council is a way more critical asset here. You are focusing on the wrong things.

I dont agree, but I dont think this is the place or time for this discussion.

Hard disagree.
The Council has moved several times in the last thousand years. They have only been resident here for 500 years.
Its a nice crib, with a strategic location, but it isnt critical to their survival. The Senior Council is.

Im not saying that the Hidden Halls arent important.
If nothing else, the process of trying to destroy the Hidden Halls would devastate Edinburgh, which is to be avoided. But for the Council, saving the Senior Council, the accumulated knowledge, firepower and connections they represent takes priority.

Worse, if the Gatekeeper is also entrapped, we also lose security at the Outer Gates.
And thats a catastrophe for everybody.


This is like arguing about whether the White House and Pentagon buildings are more important to the survival of the US than the President and the nuclear arsenal.
The buildings are nice, and have a lot of shit, but they arent mission critical.
Yes they've only been there 500 years and have moved in the past. No that doesn't mean that the Halls aren't critical to them at this juncture.

A loss like this is the sort of thing that'd shatter faith in the council among its members and announce to the world that they're on a downward spiral. Just the existence of the conspiracy almost split the council, this sort of symbolic defeat is significantly worse.

Even if they "only" lose some of their strategic assets in the resulting chaos internal fallout combining with increased external pressure is a potentially lethal blow. Perhaps we can intervene to stop the bleeding, but that doesn't change the significance of the problem.
 
Yes. This is however their largest facility and their formal capitol. Losing that vastly more significant than losing some random fortress.
Loosing any single asset would not result in the destruction of a Global scale organization that has existed for over a thousand years. That isn't how that works. There is too much momentum and other attained assets including bases required to get to this point. It is very unlikely that the WC hasn't fought wars before attaining the Hidden Halls.

What your suggesting would necessitate that the WC is so pants on head retarded that even though they possess global scale outreach they actually decided to put all of their critical assets/eggs in one basket.

That doesn't make any sense.
My point was that the loss of their seat of power is a huge blow to the council's legitimacy to its members and peers. The conspiracy's rebels shook the council and tore friction points open into rifts. Losing the Halls to it is a damning indictment of their strength and competence at a time when it's already stressed.
I imagine that in all their years the Council has dealt with worse loses than a single highly valued base and yet they're still around. You don't seem to think much of them.

Imagine for a moment that the Cold War went hot, but only with conventional weapons. Then a year or two in a secret confederate conspiracy in the senate successfully nuked DC off the face of the map while simultaneously damaging several key nuclear facilities
The scenario your suggesting here is not at all equivalent to the one in question. The Hidden Halls is a single asset. It is not the equivalent of a city and multiple key nuclear facilities. Come on man.



1) Truck-portable is entirely viable. And there are several kiloton munitons portable by several people with enhanced strength.
2) Who says they don't have nuclear weapons?
It's important to keep in mind that the tactics your suggesting here were never once displayed or used in canon. McCoy leading an enemy into a trap is an entirely different thing. Just because you believe it possible doesn't mean they'd be inclined to do so over using other magically available means that Wizards already utilize to blow things up.

Edit: Errors
 
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Dear participants of the topic, why are we discussing canon? This is not canon. This is an AU by the Dragonparadox. We have a different story fpr Mab. Yes, I understand, we have no other sources. But the canon disappeared at the start of the quest where Exaltet is the past of this world.
 
The vote is pretty close and I need some more time to make sheets for some of the people we will be meeting (and not to be too coy fighting to the death) so I'll be doing an Carlos interlude.
 
Dear participants of the topic, why are we discussing canon? This is not canon. This is an AU by the Dragonparadox. We have a different story fpr Mab. Yes, I understand, we have no other sources. But the canon disappeared at the start of the quest where Exaltet is the past of this world.
...Are you talking about the nuclear thing?

@Yog implied that he's more cognizant of such things than the average modern man.

Consider the fact that Wizards are even less aware of technology militaristic or otherwise. How likely do you think it is that they'd try messing with nuclear technology given that Wizards have access to other tried and tested means of high scale destruction and short tech out just by being around?

Yog is arguing for the possibility from the perspective of a modern man who is apparently more aware of the topic than most. His position on the subject and it's viability is likely abnormal and not indicative of a people that stay away from technology in general to the point where their culture is shaped around it.
 
...Are you talking about the nuclear thing?

@Yog implied that he's more cognizant of such things than the average modern man.

Consider the fact that Wizards are even less aware of technology militaristic or otherwise. How likely do you think it is that they'd try messing with nuclear technology given that Wizards have access to other tried and tested means of high scale destruction and short tech out just by being around?

Yog is arguing for the possibility from the perspective of a modern man who is apparently more aware of the topic than most. His position on the subject and it's viability is likely abnormal and not indicative of a people that stay away from technology in general to the point where their culture is shaped around it.
I'm talking about appeals to canon as an absolute in general. But in this case we're talking about not quite ordinary wizards... But okay.
 
1) No need to transmute. You steel enriched material from mortal facilities.
2) The issues are engineering, not physics for the most parts. That's the gist of it - if you can directly manipulate stuff like force, entropy, time, space, etc, most of the complexity falls away. Fission and fusion are conceptually very simple, and complicated to use practically because of the engineering involved.

Brewing chemical agents is using magic to obtain mundane effects. It's substituting magic for technology to obtain a product of technology. Stopping radioactive decay locally and using that to make a fission bomb on a timer is an example of magitech, where magic and physics work together
1) Stealing nuclear material is a nontrivial exercise to put it mildly.
Everything from beating the security to actually transporting the shit and not dying in the process.
And thats before, you know, keeping it secret from everybody in the supernatural world.


2) High-end ritual effect-equivalents requires both high end lab spaces, with the Resources requirement, and a thorough understanding of the principles you are trying to duplicate/work with according to M20.

Your hundred plus year old wizard requires the equivalent of nuclear weapons design qualifications to even try to make a nuke, and thats in addition to the relevant Matter 5 + Forces OR Forces 5 + Matter Spheres AND the infrastructure to do this as well.
You arent just whipping this shit up out of the blue.


3) It was a deliberate mechanical decision in Mage to gatekeep nuclear forces at Rank 5; you need Matter 5 for radioactive isotopes, you need Forces 5 for nukes.
We dont get to ruleslawyer around this bit, for good reason.

1) Truck-portable is entirely viable. And there are several kiloton munitons portable by several people with enhanced strength.
2) Who says they don't have nuclear weapons?
Moving several tons worth of nuclear payload across continents is a nontrivial affair.
Enhanced strength is not something Dresdenverse wizards are known for. You are now expanding your requirements from not just a Master of Matter OR Forces to someone with high Life Spheres as well to make supersoldiers.

All this capability in a conspiracy of 54 wizards. Are you not seeing the problems?



Who says they do?
If they did, why didnt they use it when they cornered the wizards in the NeverNever? They were already deploying Outsiders, and they did use an imported chemical weapon in Africa, so they did choose to break boundaries.

Furthermore, nuclear weapons programs are expensive and obvious because you not only have to produce the warheads but also keep them maintained. Thats an ongoing workforce of hundreds or thousands of trained people and hundreds of millions, if not billions of moneys every year

Actual police states cant hide that effort; why would you think the Red Court could do so in Latin America of all places?
 
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I'm talking about appeals to canon as an absolute in general. But in this case we're talking about not quite ordinary wizards... But okay.
???

Warlocks are Wizards that are willing to break the Laws. They do not get to ignore the mental and cultural implications of living with the techbane. Yog doesn't need to argue that it's viable he needs to argue that it's likely and explain why it wasn't in canon but would be here.

For the record I'm against using canon to make definitive statements for the Quest on things we don't have concrete evidence of but it has to make sense.
 
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...Are you talking about the nuclear thing?
To be fair to Yog, Butcher does say that
a)Wizards are aware of nukes
b)Senior wizards in general are pretty well up to date with modern developments.

However, that in no way suggests that we have wizard nuclear weapons developers as a thing to worry about.


We literally have a White Council hitman who has repeatedly worked in WMD-scale energies, from Krakatoa to Tunguska.
At no point has he gone "Gee, lemme go build a nuke or steal a nuke to fuck that one guy"

Its just not the sort of thing wizards do, or why Outsiders and others are interested in them.
Too far outside their core competencies.
If they want nukes, they'll go convert/recruit/mindcontrol a bunch of physics/nuclear engineering grad students

Id sooner believe that an Outsider delivered a working nuke to a wizard than that said wizard built it.
 
1) Stealing nuclear material is a nontrivial exercise to put it mildly.
Everything from beating the security to actually transporting the shit and not dying in the process.
And thats before, you know, keeping it secret from everybody in the supernatural world.


2) High-end ritual effect-equivalents requires both high end lab spaces, with the Resources requirement, and a thorough understanding of the principles you are trying to duplicate/work with according to M20.

Your hundred plus year old wizard requires the equivalent of nuclear weapons design qualifications to even try to make a nuke, and thats in addition to the relevant Matter 5 + Forces OR Forces 5 + Matter Spheres AND the infrastructure to do this as well.
You arent just whipping this shit up out of the blue.


3) It was a deliberate mechanical decision in Mage to gatekeep nuclear forces at Rank 5; you need Matter 5 for radioactive isotopes, you need Forces 5 for nukes.
We dont get to ruleslawyer around this bit, for good reason.
1) There are several real-life missing nukes. I don't have the data, but I am sure that there's also fissile material missing too. At least some of those incidents could and would have been supernatural-originated in DFverse

2) Why do you assume that it would be high end ritual? I don't know, but I would assume that adjusting the level of radioactivity / radioactive decay would be basic magic. Same as Harry affecting gravity, or leeching heat from the area, or increasing entropy (entropic curses have been used several times in the quest, if I recall correctly). That's the issue - it's hard to do technologically, from the engineering perspective, but if you can actually affect basic forces of the universe, it shouldn't be a high level / complex thing. Because the principle of the thing is very simple.
Moving several tons worth of nuclear payload across continents is a nontrivial affair.
Enhanced strength is not something Dresdenverse wizards are known for. You are now expanding your requirements from not just a Master of Matter OR Forces to someone with high Life Spheres as well to make supersoldiers.

All this capability in a conspiracy of 54 wizards. Are you not seeing the problems?
Telekinesis or enhanced wind work for strength substitute, and you don't need tons of nuclear payload. Nukes don't use tons of nuclear payload generally.
 
Arc 14 Interlude 3: Young Blade
Young Blade

18th of February 2007 A.D.

Carlos didn't even like Old Town, too cold, too windy and too much like a postcard. LA was plastic too sure, but it was a more relaxed kind of faking, the Hollywood playbook where you were at least a little in on the joke even as it picked your pockets and sold you dreams as sweet as cherry liquor and just about as good for you. Edinburgh was a normal enough place, filled with normal enough folks, but all the knights and castles shit, it made him feel like he didn't really belong, it made him feel small looking back at a past that was just too big and filled with nooks and crannies like the passages below. I wonder how she does it? How they do it? His dad would laugh himself silly if he were still around. 'You're sweet on a girl, only it turns out she's several girls? Trying to make up for lost time Carlos?'

Course his dad would probably want to shout at him for avoiding the army, but still ending up carrying a weapon into the shit, even if it was a sword. Made him promise his father had that he wouldn't be following in the footsteps of generations of Ramirez men before him.

'Can I kill?' wasn't a question, hadn't been for a while. 'Who can I kill?' now that was the one that made him shake at the knees, because there were only two paths. Either he'd be able to ram edged steel into the guts of people he'd shared a drink and a laugh, people who'd saved his life and they his, or he wouldn't and some of the people right here, right now would have to pay the price. Not Molly, she'd headbut a fireball or something and not dragon Molly either, she was a dragon, probably not Dresden either, the man was famous for getting out of trouble alive as he was finding trouble to begin with, but what about the kid? She was some kind of super-ectomancer and the creepy healer lady, sure it was impressive that she could heal a bullet to the brain, but that seemed to be all she could do.

"Are you OK?" Molly asked. He could feel her power in that gaze. Buzzing against his skin, heavy and bright and flowing like water, or maybe more like molten lead.

You were supposed to nod at things like that, Carlos knew, like even though everyone knew you were lying, it kept up morale to at least show you had your head in the game, but hey, he'd already screwed up with her today, tonight... whatever it was. "Nope, feel like shit," he admitted.

"Wish I could say it's gonna be alright, but there's one thing I can say for sure, it's going to be over soon."

"We work fast, just ask Mikaboshi," ghost-girl agreed. The name was vaguely familiar, but he wasn't sure from where.

OOC: Hope you enjoyed the brief look at Carlos while I get back to making sheets for wizards of a rather darker bent.
 
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