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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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4WheelSword said:
"Report!"
"Jump Drive off-line. Hull ruptured frames 4 and 7. Bay 2 is offline, turret 2, 5 also offline. Multiple reports of causalities."
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I should hope no-one accidentally broke cause-and-effect in the system. That would result in a lot more casualties. Or a lot fewer. Or be the result of more casualties? It would be terribly confusing. I'm glad causality is being properly reported.
 
Pinniped said:
I don't understand why they suddenly became suicidal or desperate enough to do this.
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For one, we allowed them to win the ground war, compared to before we arrived, the Dynasts had successes. Granted, we were pushing for the Junta alliance hard, but even then, we were the guarantors of peace in the system.
Josiah said:
The information is key here. Even if junta's false flag is not what happened, we need to investigate and rule that out.
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Agreed. In the worst case scenario, the Junta attacked and the HSWS Sakumo was boarded. It was then moved to the yards and now either the communications with them are faked or the crew is being intimidated into compliance. But, that would require one Junta asteroid ship to take on an entire S'taxu orbital defense, so I don't consider it probable.

Assuming the above didn't happen, the performance of HSWS Sakumo is rather impressive. It survived an attack by multiple weapon platforms. For propaganda purposes we'll be able to say that it soaked up some of the missiles that would otherwise be targetted at the surface. But, still, where are the four S'taxu Defense Boats?
 
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Rat King said:
I wonder if we could convince the Junta to let us hold onto the Dynasts as long as they don't leave the system.
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Convince? No, there was an entire civil war fought to unseat the Dynasts and now the mainworld was subject to nuclear fire. Intimidate on the other hand might work, but if it turns out the Junta was blameless it makes further relations with them harder.
 
1st, the Escort. It's funny as hell that it's essentially the same as the proposed changes to the Bearings, just with missiles instead of a Particle Beam.

2nd, the conflict and resolution. First thing is figuring out what happened to our station crews; Why were we blindsided by this? Next is our response about the Dynasts; Could we bring Xyri into this? Ship them over there where a legitimate third party can oversee them? Finally, we need to work together more, whether just through information networks, militarily, or as nations, Home and S'Taxu need to start integrating.

3rd, S'Taxu's recovery. We should definitely provide some more material and manpower to the recovery of the planet, Nukes leave scars after all. It might be worth it shifting the both FSSes into aid carriers, under constant and heavy escort of course.

Overall this is just a crappy situation though.
 
[X] Plan Find the Red Herring

-[x] get sensor logs from as many sources as possible, Junta, Dynast, and civilian. Compare them to our logs, look for signs of doctored logs, and establish a timeline of events

-[x] retrieve our personnel and debrief them

-[x] keep the status quo while investigations are ongoing. Only make a decision once we have more information and our personnel are secured.

-[x] establish a military intelligence arm
 
WallFly said:
1st, the Escort. It's funny as hell that it's essentially the same as the proposed changes to the Bearings, just with missiles instead of a Particle Beam.
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Yes, I am much less dissatisfied with what we got than I expected to be. Missiles do give some degree of flexibility, since different missiles can be packed for different missions. And for peacetime low-risk patrolling, part of the storage space for missiles can be used for mission-specific equipment instead.

Incorporating elements of the losing plan into the winning one is actually something @4WheelSword has done on several occasions, so I assume it is an intentional choice. I guess the voting is not strictly binary since we voters represent different factions in HSWB. Even the faction whose favorite option lost gets to influence the final design.
 
Pinniped said:
Yes, I am much less dissatisfied with what we got than I expected to be.
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Yup, it even ended up with an infirmary. I'm still favouring the particle beams, but aside from that and the lack of drop tanks fittings the frigate is fine.

[X] Plan Investigations and Tribunals
-[X] Offer to conduct multilateral trial of the Chambrestrongs, with a set of judges from both S'taxu and Home. Reason than an attack on HSWS Sakumo warrants our full participation in the trial.
-[X] Begin detailed investigation into the sequence of events and motives leading toS'taxu-4 being bombarded with nuclear weapons. Get to HSWS personel and gather their statements. Search for recordings of the battle in orbit. Request access to Indefatigable's logs and the permission to question Junta personel. Verify the whereabouts of Dynasts' System Defense Boats. Verify why our watchdogs failed to prevent or at least report the takeover of orbital weapon platforms.
-[X] Appeal to the Junta leaders for unrestricted access to the Chambrestrongs, for questioning. Request access to other Dynast servicemen held prisoners for questioning. State that should the Chambrestrongs perish or be mistreated before the tribunal can render their judgment, the HSWS shall be most crossed with the Junta.
-[X] If the false flag operation has been ruled out, work to improve cooperation and bring the Junta into closer ties with Home.
-[X] Assing both FSSs with escorts to ferry aid to S'taxu. Work with the Civilians' Council to have the Interstellar Converyors assist.
-[X] Review information flow and reporting procedures within HSWS. Create an intelligence service within HSWS.

More ideas? Basically, we don't rush into the trial to allow for proper investigations and we maintain cooperation with the Junta until their role in the incident can be verified.
 
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Magnificate said:
Yup, it even ended up with an infirmary. I'm still favouring the particle beams, but aside from that and the lack of drop tanks fittings the frigate is fine.

[X] Plan Investigations and Tribunals
-[X] Offer to conduct multilateral trial of the Chambrestrongs, with a set of judges from both S'taxu and Home. Reason than an attack on HSWS Sakumo warrants our full participation in the trial.
-[X] Begin detailed investigation into the sequence of events leading to S'taxu-4 being bombarded with nuclear weapons. Get to HSWS personel and gather their statements. Search for recordings of the battle in orbit. Request access to Indefatigable's logs. Verify the whereabouts of Dynasts' System Defense Boats.
-[X] Appeal to the Junta leaders for unrestricted access to the Chambrestrongs, for questioning. State that should the Chambrestrong perish or be mistreated before the tribunal can render their judgment, the HSWS shall be most crossed with the Junta.
-[X] If the false flag operation has been ruled out, work to improve cooperation and bring the Junta into closer ties with Home.
-[X] Assing both FSS to ferry aid to S'taxu. Work with the Civilians' Council to have the Interstellar Converyors assist.
-[X] Review information flow and reporting procedures within HSWS. Create an intelligence service within HSWS.

More ideas? Basically, we don't rush into the trial to allow for proper investigations and we maintain cooperation with the Junta until their role in the incident can be verified.
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I'd also add that we want to debrief any surviving Dynast military personnel that we can and would also like to collect statements from the Junta military personnel as well.
 
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It's not needed. We're still going against the explicit wishes of the Council. Yes, I know I tend to support them, but in this case their request could use some creative interpretation.

On another note, what should the marines from the Monitor be doing? There're three main options:
1. Ransack the Chambrestrong palace for clues to aid the investigation.
2. Assist in delivering aid to the S'taxu-4 population.
3. Remain on standby in case the situation changes and, say, the Chambrestrongs do need to taken from the Indefatigable.
 
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Magnificate said:
It's not needed. We're still going against the explicit wishes of the Council. Yes, I know I tend to support them, but in this case their request could use some creative interpretation.

On another note, what should the marines from the Monitor be doing? There're three main options:
1. Ransack the Chambrestrong palace for clues to aid the investigation.
2. Assist in delivering aid to the S'taxu-4 population.
3. Remain on standby in case the situation changes and, say, the Chambrestrongs need to taken from the Indefatigable.
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Main problem is that we only have... thirty or so of them, so I'm not sure they actually *can* storm the Indefatigable. I'd feel better if we had a full company to do the job. It's an option, but a risky one at this point.

Although I guess the monito ris "only" 164 crew (and that includes the marines) so odds are we're looking at 120ish personnel on the Indefatigable, so not insurmountable if it's a surprise and shock action (and considering the FLI are wearing body armor and carrying weapons while the crew would be scrambling and using whatever they can get from their arms lockers). But having all 150 FLI of a company would turn it into virtually a sure thing.
 
Rat King said:
Main problem is that we only have... thirty or so of them, so I'm not sure they actually *can* storm the Indefatigable. I'd feel better if we had a full company to do the job. It's an option, but a risky one at this point.
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Yeah, it was designed before we knew the full platoon is 45 marines. There's lots of free space remaining, so it's something to remember for when we build another Monitor or refit this one.
 
Nothing like a NUCFLASH to get people to come together and stop something bad. Also, a hint of...compromised interests :-3.

[X] OPLAN: FLASH BLIND
-[X] Write-In: prepare a civilian tribunal under Home and S'taxi law from prior to the civil war's outbreak-draw jury members and prosecutors from all affected parties, including any surviving civilians in Dynast territory, Xyphoni refugees, PMC forces not involved in the incident, and the HSWS survivors from the initial attacks. This tribunal will be held at Armistice Station, if still spaceworthy, and if not, broadcast live from Home via satellite and jump message relay. To ensure an impartial defense, Dynast officials who stand accused will be assigned legal representation through the few trained lawyers within the Daughters of the People.
-[X] All information and investigation should be triple-checked by the HSWS Counterintelligence Directorate-we cannot proceed into a humanitarian nightmare with bad intel.
-[X] We should improve cooperation and bring them closer into cooperation with Home.
Space Warfare Counterintelligence Directorate Surveillance Worm Recovery File 845-16q (dated y08m03w01):

[SWCD INTERNAL PROBE 15, MWO CENTRAL OFFICE-PRIVATE QUARTERS, MAJ. NOVOHAL, L.-AUDIOVISUAL SURVEILLANCE]

<Subject walks into view of central cambug, carrying a secure hardcase clearly identifiable by its size and Intelligence Archive classification markings as a copy of the TAXBURN Record gathered by signals intelligence officers aboard HSWS Tishtrya. Subject withdraws data drives from hardcase, inserting them into desk-mounted holo-projector. High-fidelity scans of preliminary damage and casualty assessments both in and down-orbit of S'taxu 4 are visible from minute 3 to minute 8 of current data log. When TAXBURN Record begins listing projected ARS casualties and treatment options, subject enters state of extreme distress and exits frame quickly, headed for left side of private quarters (see attached floorplan).>

[LN] (sound isolated due to movement): Oh, Goddess, those people-

< Partially-audible sounds of emesis, vocal, and physical distress struck from record for lack of intelligence utility, continuing from minute 10 to minute 24 of current date log.>

<Subject re-enters frame at minute 25 of current log. Facial features and state of duty uniform indicate severe distress. Subject's holster, properly loaded and secured at start of log, is open and empty. Subject's assigned firearm is not visible for remainder of current log.>

[LN]: They burned the domes. The royalist bastards burned them. Those people trusted us to keep them safe!

<Subject terminates TAXBURN playback with fist, using significant force. Maintenance logs and computer-activity tracking systems indicate damage to projector components that was resolved via standard HSWS facility work order the following day.>

[LN]: I thought I'd never have to do this.

<Subject withdraws an unknown, probably improvised long-range communications relay from a floor-set compartment known to investigators from previous logs as her standard-issue HSWS secure documents safe. Given that its contents have themselves been logged and checked by SWCD staff on three separate occasions, the ability of the subject to conceal this device has not been explained. All traffic down-line has been encrypted by previously-unknown SIGINT means.>

[LN]: Revered Mother, blessings. I need a favor. It's not just for the faithful, but for all the People.

<subject pauses, listening.>

[LN]: Yes, it's really happened. We have to help-you have to help. Please. For me, and for Ra-

<Note: at this point, audiovisual feedback fails due to a technical error, later traced to a routine circuit testing fault within the MWO office custodial wing, verified personally by Col. Ravenna Bloch, chief investigation officer.>

[PLAYBACK TERMINATED.]
 
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Magnificate said:
-[X] Assing both FSSs with escorts to ferry aid to S'taxu. Work with the Civilians' Council to have the Interstellar Converyors assist.
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That's an interesting ASSignment you've got the FSSs on there.

More toward the discussion, I think the Marines on the Monitor, if used for anything, would be our contribution to the baliffs and guards during the trial if it happens sooner than we can get more forces over there. Otherwise an understrength platoon is really just not capable of accomplishing much.
 
Coyote Niff said:
To ensure an impartial defense, Dynast officials who stand accused will be assigned legal representation through the few trained lawyers within the Daughters of the People.
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What? Why wouldn't we allow the Dynasts to choose their own defenders? The Daughers have no place in this unless their services are requested.

EDIT: Also, why would we want our survivors to sit there as jurors and prosecutors? Their place is at the witness stand. Let's keep this tribunal at least a bit legitimate.
 
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Magnificate said:
What? Why wouldn't we allow the Dynasts to choose their own defenders? The Daughers have no place in this unless their services are requested.
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My logic is this-the Dynasts are, right now, accused of serious war crimes and general crimes against humanity. The people of S'taxu will not trust them, and the Dynasts will not trust us (the SWS and Council) for going behind their back with the Junta arms/yards Lend-Lease deal. After the Xyphon offensive, the Daughters were the main face of Home's aid to survivors and part of peace talks for similar reasons. Hence, to me, it makes sense that they would be a trustable partner for everyone involved while still being separate from the tension, rage and grief on S'taxu. The Dynasts will of course have the opportunity to represent themselves, but I think it's just in an OOC and IC sense to have a reliable "public defense" option. It was necessary in history at Nuremburg, The Hague, and the South African truth commissions, and would be necessary here.
 
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Coyote Niff said:
My logic is this-the Dynasts are, right now, accused of serious war crimes and general crimes against humanity. The people of S'taxu will not trust them, and the Dynasts will not trust us (the SWS and Council) for going behind their back with the Junta arms/yards Lend-Lease deal. After the Xyphon offensive, the Daughters were the main face of Home's aid to survivors and part of peace talks for similar reasons. Hence, to me, it makes sense that they would be a trustable partner for everyone involved while still being separate from the tension, rage and grief on S'taxu.
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That's just an excuse to involve the Daughters. Their worldview is opposed to the Dynast worldview and their supporters in HSWS always displayed pro-Junta slant. There's no reason for the Dynasts to consider them credible defenders. Now, should one or more request the services, there's no reason to deny them, but the priority has to go the defenders chosen by the Dynasts themselves or someone without political aspirations, such as lawyers from Xyri.
 
[X] Plan Investigations and Tribunals

So far a lot of the discussion is set on the Dynasts definitely being behind this and just wanting a fair trial. I know a lot of people do not like the Dynasts but I feel like this stopping us from asking some very pointed questions about the situation:
  • We still do not have an answer for why the PMCS Indefatigable crossed the demarcation line and refused to respond to hails.
  • If the Dynasts wanted to make good on their threat of a nuclear deadman switch, why shoot at us? They are completely reliant on us militarily and they know our government still wants them around.
  • Unless the Dynasts has suddenly become completely suicidal, why use the nukes first? With the Indefatigable crossing the demarcation line, the Junta is the aggressor we likely would have backed them in the following war. They know the Junta at the very least considers us a peer military power, surely they thought there was some hope to win so why use the nukes?
  • It is not the first time the Junta has tried to use deception on us. They tried to get intel out of our captured first contact crew by trying to convince them we were committing genocide.
Maybe its my distrust towards the Junta for their kind of bullshit reasoning (but also understandable if the ship crews panicked) for opening fire on our first contact, and the shady tactics in their integration of our crew. But my gut feeling is that something fishy is going on, this whole situation only benefits the Junta and is suicidality detrimental to the Dynasts.
 
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