Genuine question, do we have any solid narrative proof yet that Rhaenyra is gay, rather than bisexual? It seems like the latter is a more faithful reading of both canon and what we've seen so far. It's why I voted for a plan that didn't tie us to the thoroughly-gay Laenor, as that seems like a recipe for absolute misery. At least in a marriage with mutual respect and mutual attraction, there's a chance to grow into some form of love. But if both parties 100% aren't even attracted to the gender of their spouse that just sounds miserable, and even more so dangerous when we're a dynastic heir.
The Romantic trait makes it pretty clear Rhaenyra is bi.
 
Genuine question, do we have any solid narrative proof yet that Rhaenyra is gay, rather than bisexual? It seems like the latter is a more faithful reading of both canon and what we've seen so far. It's why I voted for a plan that didn't tie us to the thoroughly-gay Laenor, as that seems like a recipe for absolute misery. At least in a marriage with mutual respect and mutual attraction, there's a chance to grow into some form of love. But if both parties 100% aren't even attracted to the gender of their spouse that just sounds miserable, and even more so dangerous when we're a dynastic heir.

One fic I've read had Rhaenyra marry Laenor while Joffrey Lonmouth married Laena Velaryon—because Rhaenyra and Laena were a couple and so too were Joffrey and Laenor, so it functioned as a cover for both couples. If we could finagle something like that, it might not matter if we married Laenor.
 
You know, now that I think about it, the Laena marriage really doesn't make sense under the canon reasons he had to marry -
If the issue is that with one surviving child and one unpopular brother the succession isn't secure, marrying a 12 years old is just a bad choice regardless of which family she's from...

Because the Velaryons had dragons. This is part of what the show ages mess up.

In book canon the dragons at this point are:

Caraxes riden by Daemon
Meleys ridden by Rhaenys
Seasmoke not large enough to ride yet, but bonded to Laenor (8 years old).

At this point Laena probably had not yet bonded Vhagar, and Rheaenyra was eight and probably had not bonded Syrax.

Viserys had bonded Balerion but Balerion had died at this point.

Basically if you counted only battle worthy dragons, it was Baelon's line had one dragon (Daemon w/ Caraxes) and Aemon's line had 1 dragon (Rhaenys on Meleys).

Suddenly Daemon has a falling out with Viserys. Where does that leave them on the dragon front?

It created pressure to enter a marriage alliance with the Velaryons, or for Viserys to reconcile with Daemon. It created pressure for Rhaenyra to bond a dragon, preferably one that was larger than Seasmoke.

We only have brief summaries in Fire and Blood about this period. My guess is that Corly pushed for a marriage between Viserys and Laena, but Viserys rejected it (canon), and probably offered to let Laena bond a dragon as a reconciliation gift (my theory), expecting her to bond a hatchling, but instead she went for the biggest dragon and bonded Vhagar. Creating a massive power in balance, only mitigated by Laena being 12, and Rhaenys not wanting to put her in battle, nor wishing to be a kinslayer.

It also makes a lot more sense that Viserys funded Daemon and Corly's attempt to conquer the Stepstones. It kept Corlys occupied, it reconciled Viserys with Daemon. Probably also why Rhaenyra then bonded a relatively large dragon.

Basically Viserys screwed up handling the Velaryons in rejecting Laena, and then had to work overtime at appeasement to make sure it never came down to who had more dragons. It's also perhaps why he supported Helaena bonding Dreamfyre, a very large dragon, in the same size range as Vermithor and Silverwing. Meanwhile he arranged for Aegon to bond Sunfyre, a dragon roughly the same size as Seasmoke.

The show ages and dragons change things quite a bit. In this case Daemon is much more hostile, and we only have Syrax vs Caraxes, so securing the Velaryons is still important.

I suppose we haven't discussed what happens if Corlys just goes, 'Lol, no delay, ambition goes BRRRR' and pushes for the immediate marriage regardless, or if Otto balks at even a much delayed Velaryon marriage and tries to send in Alicent or something.

In that case I think we have no choice but to marry Laenor in a couple years or so. It sets us up with Corlys as having supported him in his first move, even if he rejects it. It also allows us to position our marriage to Laenor to Otto as us doing the duty needed to secure the Velaryon dragons.

I mean, I have to say that Otto is not thinking straight about dragons yet. He starts getting ideas once Alicent has children but until then...

Anyways, assuming we do end up with canon pairings, then we need to make sure to stay close to Alicent and any children she has. That and insist on giving them dragon eggs. While not giving dragon eggs to our heir and instead having them bond the big dragons.

That and maybe we remove the Braavosi lout fiance of Laena ourselves instead of letting Daemon do it. Perhaps we can arrange her marriage to someone useful instead of Daemon.

Other things to consider is visiting Volantis and meeting our cousins from the line of Saera. (I suppose that is a possible dark horse marriage candidate, a man from that line could probably bond a dragon). We should also visit Borros Baratheon, and make it clear we see him as family. Maybe even hint that we'd be willing to grant dragon eggs to the Baratheon line.

Because I think that is something we need to think about is how do we control the dragons and keep something like the Dance from happening.

I think the key is that we say that older dragons can only be bonded with permission of the King (and maybe the Prince(ss) of Dragonstone. That way we don't have issues like Laena bonding Vhagar. Because that was the real problem with the Velaryons. If Laena had bonded a hatchling, or even a dragon like Tessarion, Sunfyre, or Grey Ghost it would not have distorted the power balance so badly.

Eggs are not as dangerous, because hatchlings are going to take time to grow large enough to contest the larger dragons. If we are going to greatly increase the number of dragons, which I don't really see any way of preventing, then we need to set up a system which keeps the older and bigger dragons inside the power of the the main branch of the royal family.

Genuine question, do we have any solid narrative proof yet that Rhaenyra is gay, rather than bisexual? It seems like the latter is a more faithful reading of both canon and what we've seen so far. It's why I voted for a plan that didn't tie us to the thoroughly-gay Laenor, as that seems like a recipe for absolute misery. At least in a marriage with mutual respect and mutual attraction, there's a chance to grow into some form of love. But if both parties 100% aren't even attracted to the gender of their spouse that just sounds miserable, and even more so dangerous when we're a dynastic heir.

SB bias towards gay and bi, when the canon suggests that Rhaenyra is straight. Though this Rahenyra is bi. Even if Rhaenyra was straight, then marrying Laenor could still work, as long as we have children with him. Still, I'd prefer for Laena to marry Viserys, and for us to marry someone like Forrest Frey. We will have to wait and see what happens before making any more plans.
 
I think the winning plan, of betrothing Laena's future kids to our future kids, is a solid one, but if for whatever reason it doesn't work out that way, and we end up going full gay - with Alicent or otherwise - or if we end up with Laenor and he isn't up for having kids with us...is there any reason we couldn't just declare one of our siblings through Laena our heir? Ideally, if Laena's eldest turns out to be a girl, I'd like to push towards cognatic primogeniture, if we can actually become ruling queen and thus set the precedent, but if things are looking rebellion-y at that point, we could avoid rocking the boat too much and pass the throne through Laena's firstborn son.

This would pretty much guarantee Velaryon backing, with accompanying dragon/s, and if we manage to maintain a decent relationship with Otto, we might be able to circumvent any sexism-motivated trouble stirring on his part, since his preferred alternative for a male successor to dad would be next in the line of succession anyway.
 
lots of speculation, much of which I'm wary to lend any credibility, particularly anything that suggests Corlys, having everything he needs to fight for his grandsons succession as the most influential man on the council is going to need to deal in good faith with Rhaenyra. some of the voters gambled big and we should be prepared for the possibility we all lose hard for the hubris of neglecting diplomacy for ledgers when making an excessive pitch to Corlys.
 
Interlude: The Fisher King
Adhoc vote count started by Teen Spirit on Aug 13, 2024 at 12:52 PM, finished with 203 posts and 49 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
    -[X] Matters of Law and Coin
    -[X] Try to convince him to support a marriage alliance with the Velaryons, but delayed. We need their dragons as a hedge against Daemon. Considering Laena's age, a betrothal while delaying the actual marriage for four years is reasonable. It will give your father time to grieve, and it will ensure that you will be 19 years older than any siblings, allowing you to marry your children to them if Laena has children, avoiding any future dynastic conflicts.
    -[X] Agree to support their efforts in exchange for favors (Select as many as you want but they will likely refuse if too much is demanded)
    --[X] They agree to delay any marriage for four years. This is far safer for Laena than trying to have children too young. It also allows Viserys time to grieve, making him more likely to agree.
    --[X] They agree to support your inheritance to the throne, and you agree to wed your heir to a child of either Laena or Laenor's. (If you have no children, of course you will name a sibling heir).
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan The Conciliator
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
    -[X] Make no firm offers but remain civil
    [X] Plan Not Great, Not Terrible
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince Otto that the match is advantageous, given that Daemon has been all but committing treason already, and that you need to focus on checking the Sea Snakes power more directly. Promise Otto to support his cause, once you sit on the Small Council.
    -[X] Agree to support their efforts in exchange for favors (Select as many as you want but they will likely refuse if too much is demanded)
    --[X] Set up a treaty concerning the succession, clearly stating that you are the heiress to the Iron Throne ahead of all children from a second marriage, and those in turn are ahead of Daemon and any other claimants.
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan: Political Marriage is Both our Duties
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
    --[X] If your father is going to marry for the good of the realm, then it should bring the realm something: Propose Deria Martell as a match.
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan Commit To Your Choices
    -[X] Matters of Law and Coin
    -[X] Otto: Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride.
    -[X] Corlys: [Defiant] None, instead decry both of them for using their daughter in such an abhorrent manner. They are her parents, they should not be selling her like a piece of meat.
    [X] Plan: The Dragonriders' Compromise
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Write-In: Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose Johanna Westerling, Sabitha Vypren, or Deria Martell.
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    [X] Plan: Political Marriage is our Duty
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help delay your father's decision on who he should marry.
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
    --[X] Lord Corlys agrees to support your efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council
    [X] Plan Take Your Time
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[X] Try to convince him to help delay your father's decision on who he should marry.
    -[X] Make no firm offers but remain civil
    [X] Plan Continuing To Ruin Alicent's Life
    -[X] The Seven Pointed Star (Improves Relationship with Alicent)
    -[x] Purpose an alliance with Otto, offering to marry his son Gwayne (Will increase Stress if Otto accepts)
    -[X] [Defiant] None, instead decry both of them for using their daughter in such an abhorrent manner. They are her parents, they should not be selling her like a piece of meat.
    [X] Plan Chaos is a Ladder
    -[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
    -[x] Purpose an alliance with Otto, offering to marry his son Gwayne (Will increase Stress if Otto accepts)
    -[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)



Interlude: The Fisher King



You understand now why most Kings generally leave matters of gold to the Master of Coin. The amount of numbers being thrown at you was honestly overwhelming, and worse, boring. These lessons somehow did the impossible by making Dragons boring, or at least the numerous accounts of just how costly the many sheep and goats they fed on were. You quickly come to dread the lessons as if they were the Stranger themselves. By the end, you weren't exactly shaping up to be the next Master of Coin, but you felt somewhat competent. Decent enough to figure out if your Master of Coin was cheating you at least.

The Legal stuff was somewhat more interesting, particularly the histories covering how the old king managed to resolve matters with the Faith after the Uprisings during the reigns of Aenys and Meagor. One of the few moments where Dragons weren't enough to force the rest of the Realm to bow to your family's will. The lessons are long and often tedious, but you feel you have a sharper mind for legal matters then when you started.

Stewardship Improved



"I think we can both agree that Laena is young," you declared to Otto. "Too young for marriage. And my father needs time to grieve. But we need the Sea Snake's support, particularly against Daemon."

Wind rustled through the leaves of the nearby heart tree, the carved face in the old oak seemingly staring at the two of you as you spoke.

"What would you purpose then?" Otto eyed you with bemused curiosity.

"A betrothal," you stated confidently. "My father agrees to marry Laena when she is ten and six years old. Gives him time to grieve my mother and ensure Laena is an adult when she gets married-"

"And ensures that you will likely have children of your own before Laena can give Viserys a son," Otto interrupted. The amusement was gone from his face but the curiosity had only grown deeper.

The though of having kids so soon was frankly terrifying to you, but for the sake of argument, you could at least pretend.

"They would be close in age," you replied. "Another betrothal would resolve any issues of succession with Laena's children. Succession would be secure for generations to come."

Otto turned away, his eyes glancing at the Red Keep behind you and his face unreadable.

"It's a solid plan, princess," he complimented you. "You have a better eye for politics than I realized. Were it any other lord in the Seven Kingdoms, that would probably work. But you fail to understand what kind of man you're dealing with. Lord Corlys will never accept this."

"Why do you say that?"

"You were barely old enough to walk when Jaehaerys called for the Great Council, so you wouldn't remember much of it," Otto said, holding himself like one of your tutors. "It wasn't simply that the succession was in dispute after your grandfather passed. It was how people reacted to this dispute. Many, myself included, were worried there would be a civil war. And how could we not be worried? Daemon was raising an army and Lord Corlys had put his fleet to sail. Both men were ready to wage war against their king to put their family on the Throne. And Corlys has never forgotten the slight he endured when the Realm chose your father over Princess Rhaenys."

"That was over a decade ago," you argued.

"And as Daemon showed, men like that don't change," Otto retorted dismissively. "Lord Corlys may be less of a brute then your uncle, but they are equals in terms of ambition. And with Daemon gone, it's likely Corlys considers himself as powerful as the King, if not more so. He won't see the need to agree any of these terms."

"If I had your support in this he would reconsider," you pressed. The Sea Snake was powerful sure but the heir to the throne and the hand of the king could be a powerful force as well if they worked together.

"If you had my support, it would only make Lord Corlys more inclined to refuse, not less," Otto said as he began to walk out of the Godswood.

You stood there, trying to think of something to say, something that would convince Otto to support you, but the man seemed convinced of the futility of your proposal.

"It is a good plan, Princess," Otto stopped and turned back, looking at you with sympathy, or pity perhaps. "It honestly is a shame it won't work."

Relationship with Otto Hightower Improved.



Despite Otto's words all but taunting you in the back of your head, you pressed forward with the Sea Snake.

"May I speak honestly?" You asked formally.

Rhaenys turned worried and tense in an instant, as if she expected the worst from you.

"This is your home, Princess Rhaenyra," Corlys replied with amusement. "Of course you can speak freely."

You glanced at the distant figure of your father, standing awkwardly as Laena spook to him, looking more like a captive prisoner than a King.

"I think we all can tell that my father is... hesitant about this possible marriage." You did your best to keep your voice neutral. "while renewing our ties with house Velaryon would do well for both houses and the realm, my father's grief and your daughter's age make it very possible the King will refuse the proposal, unless someone convinced him otherwise."

"And would you be willing to convince him?" Corlys asked, a hint of a smile on his face.

You nodded curtly. "Provided you agree to some conditions first."

A wave of relief washed over Rhaenys face, but Corlys next words were cold. "What are these conditions?"

"First you agree to a betrothal first with the understanding we will wait until your daughter is at least ten and six before the wedding takes place," you said, bringing up the plans in your mind. " Second, you agree to support my claim to the throne, and that when I have an heir of my own they will be betrothed to one of Laena or Laenor's children in time. Third, when I come of age, Lord Corlys will agree to give full support to my efforts to attain a seat on the Small Council. Agree to that and I will give my full support to your efforts to marry Laena to my father"

The two look at you with some amount of surprise, before turning towards each other, exchanging curious and uncertain glances.

Rhaenys spoke first, her eyes turning back to you. "This is an unexpected proposition. Would you please give us a moment to consider you offer, Cousin?"

You nod and the two departed, leaving you alone to watch Laena and your father as they made their way through the Gardens. Despite having turned to autumn, things were still fairly warm and you found yourself growing uncomfortable in the sun. You could only imagine how much worse it was for your father, all dressed in Targaryen black.

You tried to imagine what life would be like having Laena as a Step-mother, but struggled to even begin making sense of what that would look like. She was a child now. What kind of person would she be in four years? Would she support your efforts to be queen or work against you for the sake of her own children? And what of Corlys? Otto Hightower did more or less say the man was not dissimilar from your uncle in terms of ambition and boldness. Would he really settle for a grandchild as eventual consort?

Eventually, the Sea Snake returned, alone, no sign of your cousin anywhere. Curious. And worrying.

"Respectfully, princess, we must decline your offer." Corlys was polite but firm in his tone. "A betrothal of that length is simply unacceptable."

"Why?"The question came out bluntly as you were reeling from his reply.

"You said yourself your father has hesitations about this marriage. Four years gives him plenty of time to figure a way out of it," Corlys explained. "For Otto Hightower to whisper in his ear that Laena must be set aside for someone else. For you to decide that my daughter is a threat to your inheritance, and for every lord in the realm to push their own daughters at the king. I cannot, in good mind, agree to that betrothal."

"Betrothals are a scared institution, not easily set aside," you bargained with him.

"And marriages are even harder to set aside," Corys countered sharply. "This marriage needs to happen within the next couple months, not years. What you want can be achieved by your father showing sense and waiting to take the marriage bed. There is no need to wait on the marriage itself."

Part of you really wished you had taken your chance to just scream at the man. Wouldn't have accomplished anything, but then again, neither had your proposal.

While you were fuming internally, the Sea Snake went on. "As for your other terms. If the king is wavering, convince him to see reason and I will be open to considering them again once the wedding takes place."

"That's all you're willing to offer?!" You exclaimed in naked disbelief. "Consideration?"

"When I married Rhaenys," Corlys suddenly changed topics, "her father Aemon told me she would one day rule and I needed to prepare to one day stand at her side as King-Consort, only for her grandfather to make Baelon heir before his ashes were even cold. Experience has taught me that promises made too early with your family rarely work out. So, yes, we can discuss your terms again. After the wedding."

You made your goodbyes and left. There was no point in staying any longer.



You waited until that evening to approach your father. After Otto had refused to support you and Corlys had made clear he would not suffer a long betrothal, you found yourself deeply unsure of what you would even say to him. Eventually you forced yourself to his chambers. You had to say something at least. Whoever your father married would shape the decades to come. Their children could be the greatest threat to your own succession, or perhaps your greatest allies.

The Lord Commander announced your arrival as you opened the door. Your father was by his hearth, the fire crackling as various Maesters attended him. Grand Maester Mellos stood at his kings side, placing bowl full of white writhing things before him.

That's when you noticed your father's hand, one finger black with rot, the nail oozing something foul. The sight caught you off guard, knocking the breath out of you. The king jerked his hand away in a vain effort to hide it.

"My apologies," your father spoke with regret. "I did not intend for you to see that, Rhaenyra."

"I didn't realize it was that bad." Your voice was still numb from shock.

"It is not as bad as you may fear, Princess." The Grand Maester tried to sound reassuring despite what you had seen. "The maggots here are the best chance we have of saving the digit. They should eat away the rot and stop it's spread. Leeching will clear any bad blood from the hand."

Somehow, that indeed sounded reassuring.

"I imagine you came here to talk about Lord Corlys' offer of marriage?" Your father said calmly as he buried his hand under the mass of maggots.

"I also came to check in on you, but yes," you admitted. "I did want to discuss the matter with you."

"You are very kind," his voice was warm if tired. "I assume you don't care much for the match."

"Laena is a child, younger than me." The words come out before you can stop them.

The look of shame and disgust on your father's face is immediately apparent.

"I know," he admits," but a marriage pact would mend the rift that has been growing between us and House Velaryon and show the Realm that the best days of my reign are ahead of us, not behind."

Mellos was glancing intently at the both you as he worked. You father sighed deeply, leaning back in his chair as he did. This was likely far from the first conversation he had had that day on this topic.

"I do not want this marriage," he confessed openly, "but I see no better alternative before me."

For a moment you almost found yourself choking, the weight of the moment almost physically pressing against your chest.

You knew your father was right. Laena would mend wounds that had been open since before the Great Council and strengthen your father's reign. But Otto's words played in your head. Corlys was in many ways just as ambitious as your uncle and you conversation with the Sea Snake did little to calm your fears. The man had rejected your offer and presented little in return. The marriage would have made Lord Corlys the second most powerful man in the realm and he knew it.

Laena could have strengthened your father's reign, but she could also prove to be your reign's downfall.

The other options you had looked into came back to mind. Victaria Tyrell would have brought strength to your father without the risk of dragons, but the Reach was one of the most powerful of the seven kingdoms. The Tyrells could have proven almost as much of a threat to your inheritance.

Johanna Westerling seemed suitable, strong enough to help your father but not so strong as to prove a massive threat to your interests. At least you hoped she wasn't.

Then there was Sabitha Vypren, who would prove little threat to you, but she also brought little to offer for your father. Perhaps too little.

Then of course there was the Martell. Your inheritance would be all but secure but it would anger much of the Realm. Perhaps it was worth the trade though? You did have a dragon after all. Dragons were great with unrest. You could also suggest a bride from Essos. Not as scandalous as a Martell, but it wouldn't offer as much either.

Finally, you couldn't shake the fear out of the back of your mind. You worried unreasonably that your father might pick Alicent out of desperation for an alternative bride. You had no evidence, no reason for this fear, but it lingered in your mind still.

What do you say to your Father?

[] [Romantic] "Forgot about the needs of the Realm. Do what your heart desires."

[] "It's too soon to think of such things, father. Wait a few months more, please."

[] "As much as we find it distasteful, Laena is what's best for your reign and the realm."

[] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."

[] "The Lord Commander has a cousin, Johanna, she seems a much more suitable match for you."

[] "There is a woman in the Riverlands, Sabitha Vypren. Her house is small but she seems like she would make a fierce and powerful bride."

[] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."

[] "Perhaps a bride from Essos?"

[] "Do as you see fit, father. Just please do not marry Alicent Hightower. I beg of you."

[] Write-in (Heavily Subject to QM Approval, no options Rhaenyra has no way of knowing about)




QM's Note: So, that largely failed. Few reasons that happened. First. Otto Hightower is never going to agree to a plan that makes one of his rivals the most powerful man in the realm, so that part was never going to work, though the plan being sensible did improve Otto's opinion of us. Corlys refused because he's basically striking while he has his best chance. As he sees it he has a very strong hand right now and anything that delays the marriage is basically asking him to squander that and wait so Viserys has a better chance of refusing. He sees a long engagement as a stalling tactic to keep him appeased without actually going through with the marriage. There were deals he would have accepted, this was not one of them.

So I want to make clear here, there are options above that Viserys will reject, Rhaenyra's relationship with her father is gonna help a lot here but it doesn't mean he will mindlessly go with whatever you suggest. So keep that in mind.
 
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Didn't really expect more than that, but at least we tried. And Otto likes us for trying, so there is that.

[] [Romantic] "Forgot about the needs of the Realm. Do what your heart desires."

Very in character, but we know what Viserys heart desires and unfortunately, she is dead.

[] "It's too soon to think of such things, father. Wait a few months more, please."

Just kicks the can down the road. Doesn't really help us either.

[] "As much as we find it distasteful, Laena is what's best for your reign and the realm."

Corlys threw our offer into our face, so this is a hard no.

[] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."

Best match by far in terms of power offered to us. I don't like the implications of dragging Reach politics to Kings Landing, but it can't really be avoided. At least Otto should be somewhat mollified since it's a match that benefits neither side of the power struggle.

[] "The Lord Commander has a cousin, Johanna, she seems a much more suitable match for you."

Decent second choice.

[] "There is a woman in the Riverlands, Sabitha Vypren. Her house is small but she seems like she would make a fierce and powerful bride."

Someone Viserys will most likely reject. She sure is someone Rhaenyra would love as as stepmother, but offers nothing politically.

[] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."

I know a lot of people are really into this, but this is an insane plan. We already have stability issues and this would make it so much worse. It's also a really far out there match that Viserys will likely reject and both Otto and Corlys will torpedo too. This won't happen. Don't waste our shot at influencing this on wish-casting.

[] "Perhaps a bride from Essos?"

Pretty much the "throw your hands into the air and give up"-option.

[] "Do as you see fit, father. Just please do not marry Alicent Hightower. I beg of you."

Oddly specific request there... :V



[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
[X] "The Lord Commander has a cousin, Johanna, she seems a much more suitable match for you."

Those are the options that actually improve the crowns position.
 
Well then. If we support Laena anyway now, we'll just make ourselves look weak. Corlys rejected our offer, so he has to suffer at least some consequences, minor as they may be - and if it is just throwing in the weight we have our father for another option.

Of all the matches, Sabitha would be the most fun one, but is also by far the most unrealistic one. Yes, even more unrealistic than the Dornish option. The Vyprens are nobodies. And the Westerlings have scant more than reputation.

So to me, it comes down to the Dornish Gambit, or the less risky Tyrell option. Yes, it's a distant Tyrell relative, yes, the Tyrells are not all that powerful in the Reach at that period in time, but she still has the name and hence the pedigree. But really, that would be one thing in favour of the Dornish option: Sister of the sovereign Prince of Dorne would have much more dignity than a distant relation of a weak Lord Paramount, of course...
 
[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."

I'm going with my guts here for this being a good match. ultimately Viserys may reject it because it angers the realm, but that's a chance I'm willing to take. the chance to enlist Otto's aid and weaken Corlys's hand so he was more willing to compromise has passed.
 
[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."

The most reasonable option and the most Fuck It, We Ball option

[X] Plan Don't Do Everything Alone - Simple Version
 
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Well then. If we support Laena anyway now, we'll just make ourselves look weak. Corlys rejected our offer, so he has to suffer at least some consequences, minor as they may be - and if it is just throwing in the weight we have our father for another option.

Of all the matches, Sabitha would be the most fun one, but is also by far the most unrealistic one. Yes, even more unrealistic than the Dornish option. The Vyprens are nobodies. And the Westerlings have scant more than reputation.

So to me, it comes down to the Dornish Gambit, or the less risky Tyrell option. Yes, it's a distant Tyrell relative, yes, the Tyrells are not all that powerful in the Reach at that period in time, but she still has the name and hence the pedigree. But really, that would be one thing in favour of the Dornish option: Sister of the sovereign Prince of Dorne would have much more dignity than a distant relation of a weak Lord Paramount, of course...
Please, not you too. The Martell Gambit will be just as much of a mess as its predecessor.
 
Please, not you too. The Martell Gambit will be just as much of a mess as its predecessor.
Well, I am leaning Tyrell. I am just not dismissing Dorne out of hand (and I am also saying Westerlings are nobodies, too).

Also... hrrrrm. Another issue. Say we propose the Tyrell (IMO the most sensible option among the 7K options). It will still be a weak option on account of how distant she is to the mainline, so as soon as Otto proposes Alicent it is automatically the better option. Which is bad for us.

The problem here is, no matter what we achieve here, it will probably have to stand up to Otto's later offer of Alicent. And we have to be aware of that.
 
[X] "It's too soon to think of such things, father. Wait a few months more, please."

This one more as a failsafe

[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."


I think this option is the best balanced one for us so far.
In the short term, this match gives a lot of stability to the dynasty, which is the immediate goal of the marriage.
In the long term, I think this match actually has the potential to be way less dangerous than the canon Alicent match ended up being.
In xanon, Alixent was the first cousin to lord Hightower, and the Alicent Otto combo practically ruling for a decade meant that they could take over all the levers of power in the capital.
Meanwhile Victaria is a distant cousin (which I assume means at least second cousin), the Tyrell man at court atm is Otto himself, who doesn't have a vested interest in the Tyrell-Targs getting the throne, and if this go the way of canon, the Tyrell's are going to end up with a regency that would be even less likely to try anything when thr time comes, especially for a distant relative.
Also, unlike in GoT, where the Tyrell rule the Reach for 300 years and have recently married both the Redwynes and the Hightowers and got the loyalty of the Tarlys, in this time frame the Tyrells only ruled for a century by the grace of the Iron Throne, and their main vassals are far more independent minded and could easily choose to go against their leige lords in the hope of getting Highgarden or at least weakening the Tyrells.
 
We could try a bluff. Initially push the Dornish Gambel, and when Viserys ultimately rejects it (the man is a people pleaser and wants a legacy of peaceful rule he probably won't go for it since its only real benefit is on the Stepstones issue) we then hit him with the safest option of

[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."

I also think, pushing Viserys to be decisive of taking time to properly mourn is a legitimate answer. It gives us more negotiating time and shows strength to Otto and Corlys while weakening the Velaryon's gambit. Once again, forcing the lords of the realm to legitimately consider the idea of a female heir.
[X] "It's too soon to think of such things, father. Wait a few months more, please."
 
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We could try a bluff. Initially push the Dornish Gambel, and when Viserys ultimately rejects it (the man is a people pleaser and wants a legacy of peaceful rule he probably won't go for it since its only real benefit is on the Stepstones issue) we then hit him with the safest option of

[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
-[X] Include asking the favor of NOT MARRYING OUR BEST FRIEND.
-[] Initially show interest in the Dornish Gambit in regards to the issue of the Stepstones before pivoting to the safer option.
Please don't do write ins this turn
 
I disagree with the idea Westerlings are nobodies. I'd say more third tier house just starting to decline money wise.
They wouldn't be nobodies from the point of view of a Lord Paramount. A Westerling would make a fine consort for a Lannister or even a Tyrell or Stark.

But I'd say from the point of view of the Crown, a third-tier house is in fact nobodies. We need at least second tier (i.e. the most powerful non-Paramounts, like the Hightowers).

Especially since, as I have said, any suggestion of ours probably will have to stand up against the Hightower option.
 
[X] "I've found an alternative, Victaria Tyrell would prove almost as strong a match as Laena."
[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."
 
[X] "The Princess of Dorne has a sister. If you marry her, we will gain a powerful ally against the Triarchy."

Can we suggest to be betrothed to Laenor at the same time? Feel like it would be a nice symbol of unity with our father. Would also patch up any stability problems by marrying into house Velaryon anyway.

Also I think throwing a betrothal into Corlys' face would be kinda funny.
 
Honestly, I am tempted to go this way, for damage control if nothing else...

It would help with our most immediate worry, wouldn't it?

And our relationship with our father is good, at the moment. I mean, instead of beating around the bush we could just tell him our priorities. He might listen to them.

Whereas none of the actual marriage proposals would stand up to Otto proposing Alicent.
 
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That's why I feel like Rhaenyra taking the metaphorical bullet of offering to marry Laenor could go a long way of making our case more convincing.

Not only does it induce more fondness and make him consider our words more, but it would also put the stress of the Velaryons out of Viserys' mind.


Edit: Long post boys

Don't know how much freedom we have on this vote but something like

[]Plan: Fine, I'll do it myself
-[] Tell him that betrothing you to the Laenor Velaryon would bind the houses close once more, and settle Corlys' ambitions
-[] A Dornish match would be beneficial for several reasons. One, the heirs would be very incapable of acting as usurpers. Two, Viserys would go down in the history books as the King who both conquered the Step-Stones and the one who began to bring the last Kingdom into Westeros. And three...more personally... the wisdom of the Dornish and their female rulers might be availed to his struggling daughter.
[] Can set both marriages until after the Step-Stones war is concluded. Gives Rhaenyra more time to mentally prepare herself. And makes it so that the Dornish at least bled for their royal match, fighting alongside Westeros against the Triarchy. Should settle many murmers.


Even if we can't put that into plan form, this is basically my thought process of how it could go smoothly. Instead of just flailing and saying that Dorne would never work.
 
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