Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

This I'd like the citation on, especially since only a few updates earlier it was stated that Harry is bound to Demonreach until death parts them.
Hmm.. Actually I'm probably wrong on this. Good catch, I can't source a citation for that.

There's no reason to believe this is the case AFAIK. I actually can't tell where I even got that from.
Okay I managed to find the citation. I was looking in the books before.

Butcher says in the interview that you can "walk away" or be driven from being Warden of Demonreach. Death isn't the only way.

Skip to time 26:00
www.crowdcast.io

A Conversation with NYT Bestselling Dresden Files Author Jim Butcher

Register now for A Conversation with NYT Bestselling Dresden Files Author Jim Butcher on crowdcast, scheduled to go live on September 29, 2020, 07:00 PM CDT.
 
Last edited:
Ahah. A Prince of the Earth, indeed. Interesting that the response natural to a spirit trying to tell her "her place" is to deny that she has one - it's a very Solar response, for lack of a better description.

I'm glad we got recognized with the proper title. Starting to feel like I need to make a document that's just a list of everything Creation-related that gets mentioned…

Prince of Malfeas is correct, but odd - normally it'd be Green Sun Prince or Prince of the Earth, Demonreach's combined them. Feels like I'm missing something. The Caste mark responding to the name's a bit concerning, almost?

Clearly the name itself isn't doing anything immediately terrible. Probably not even too important per se? But if that's the case, it's really weird that Uriel had such a strong reaction to the title of He-Who-Would-Be-Malfeas. I'm clearly missing something, but I don't know what.
 
Why are you bringing all this covet stuff into the equation?

If you want to play religious games it'd make more sense to argue that magic focused on coercing people into servitude is inherently against the white god's themes and therefore is the sort of magic he banned in the DF.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that this specifically would be a problem for us, but it would make more sense than your current argument.

I made three arguments:

We've had this discussion before. I don't know if I participated back then, but my two cents on this specific option is that it has multiple problems:

- Morally speaking this would meant that Molly is willing to put a magical gun to people's heads to enslave them and then use them as Magical Manchurian Agents.

- Ethically speaking this would mean leaving at least one place in the world as capital B Bad. Either we leave a city/village in utter misery so we could use this skill/spell/charm or we leave a place of nature so dangerous/hazardous to human life that the results are the same: People will die even when we don't use this skill/spell/charm.

- The skill/spell/charm itself's description marks it as Poisoning/Witchcraft/Sorcery in at least Christian if not Abrahamic conceptualization of such matters. We might lose Michael and the White God's favor in general just by using that skill/spell/charm.

Any of these three reasons on their own would be enough for Molly as we have been playing her this entire quest to never use Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••).

Only the third one was focused on the Charm Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••) being against White God's themes as you call them.

As for the whole covet thing? I was talking about how the 10th Commandment:

I'm not talking about the charm description, I'm talking about the 10th Commandment:

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's"

which is the Commandment that governs what qualifies as Poisoning/Witchcraft/Sorcery.

Yes that means that any Witch Trial that is used as a means of obtaining an accused's property of any sort is itself an act of Poisoning/Witchcraft/Sorcery and the Judges themselves are the Witches in that case ironically enough.

The way you argued for using the charm:



is literally coveting Molly's enemy's lives and their servant's in order to make disposable minions against them. How the fuck do you think that doesn't count as Poisoning/Witchcraft/Sorcery? Or breaking the 10th Commandment for that matter?

I'm not talking about Baba Anujka here.

specifically governs what sort of magic is against White God's "themes".
 
For example; Once things get out the White Council is going to have a lot of pressure to be transparent on several things and not many avenues to retaliate without going Warlock.
This is one of the reasons I have come up with ways to start handling the law breaking better, including the Books of Law splendors design.
Okay I managed to find the citation. I was looking in the books before.

Butcher says in the interview that you can "walk away" or be driven from being Warden of Demonreach. Death isn't the only way.

Skip to time 26:00
www.crowdcast.io

A Conversation with NYT Bestselling Dresden Files Author Jim Butcher

Register now for A Conversation with NYT Bestselling Dresden Files Author Jim Butcher on crowdcast, scheduled to go live on September 29, 2020, 07:00 PM CDT.
Very interesting, thank you. Not sure if Harry can walk away though - as I understand it, normally Wardens don't bind themselves like he did to the island. Certainly, none of them named it.
Feels like I'm missing something. The Caste mark responding to the name's a bit concerning, almost?

Clearly the name itself isn't doing anything immediately terrible. Probably not even too important per se? But if that's the case, it's really weird that Uriel had such a strong reaction to the title of He-Who-Would-Be-Malfeas. I'm clearly missing something, but I don't know what.
I think our reaction was past memories surfacing (or trying to, it seems Usum failed that roll). Uriel's reaction I attribute to the unwillingness to talk about Primordials. And I actually understand and agree with him on the subject - he cannot explain Primordials in details without compromising Molly's free will as a mortal, I think. Especially because of what Molly is on the path to become.
 
Very interesting, thank you. Not sure if Harry can walk away though - as I understand it, normally Wardens don't bind themselves like he did to the island. Certainly, none of them named it.
Im pretty sure that binding yourself to the island is how you become Warden of it and in the process of, gain a measure of authority/control of its functions. Harry didn't do anything unique in that regard. The fact that Demonreach didn't have a name before Harry is really weird though. I always wondered about that. You'd think Merlin would've done so.. Perhaps Merlin and the WC didn't for good reason and Harry fucked with something by naming it?

Either this was just protagonist privilege at play and or the White Council has some kind of standing rule about leaving the island Nameless that Harry just violated. In that case the question would be if it's a purely political reason similar to why nearly no-one wanted DR after Kemmler or something actually important.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan fiction
-[X] Some entertainment by means of storytelling
--[X] If they won't agree to that, Information on the outside world
---[X] Subject to veto in information security grounds.


I dislike the base option, but ca think of little else that's better
 
We need to coach Harry on what to ask Demonreach about. He might not think to ask some things, and Demonreach might assume he already knows - the same as happened with Bob and knowledge of Winter's true function and what Outer Gates are.
Point of order - yes, Demonreach detected us using the Crown, but frankly the chances of it succeeding were very slim. It got very lucky. And it's an elder spirit (E6).
No we do not. We are not playing Harry. We dont get to micromanage an adult dude at his own job; if we didnt think he was going to be competent, we shouldnt have pushed for him to end up in the job.
This suggestion oversteps all sorts of personal and professional boundaries.

Furthermore, Harry is not the first Warden that Demonreach has had to train.
He's going to tell him everything he needs to know to do his job.

===
One, Demonreach detected the Crown use when it wasnt even pointed at it.
And its not the most powerful entity around, or the only one with circumstantial bonuses or the right artifact. A godmonster like Iku Turso was able to identify our VLE charm when it was active and deactivate it.

Two, E6 is Second Circle Demon-tier by Ex2 standards.
Should not be enough to imprison Ethniu, or Mab.
So either it is not his/her full Essence rating, or there's something else in play.

====
Abyssal shard, not an Abyssal.
Fair.
Very unlikely. Yes, Odin might have been lying and withholding information from Gard. But I doubt it. More likely Odin has no idea, and Demonreach maintains secrecy.
Odin meets regularly with Archangel Uriel. He's the only god we know who has soulfire.
He and his pantheon used to be one of those in charge of defending the Outer Gates, back before the Fae Courts got the job.

He's currently got access to the mantle of a Winter King, and many of Winter's secrets; he's got Santa's intelligence network.
He knew the details of the magic that Victor Sells used in Storm Front despite having noone there, and knew about the bloodline curse magic at Chitchen Itza. He's known generations of Wardens of this island.

He is hardly perfect, especially with regards to ongoing events, but Im reasonably sure his ancient lore is on point.

Seriously, Odin was the guy who trained the first Merlin.
The Merlin who built Demonreach was his apprentice in magic. The time magic that Merlin used to build this place probably cam from him; Odin is specifically noted to be good at time magics as part of his job as Santa Claus.

What do you think are the odds that Merlin stashed Exalt inmates here without telling him?


This I'd like the citation on, especially since only a few updates earlier it was stated that Harry is bound to Demonreach until death parts them.
It can be switched. Word of Butcher:
Barbara's Bookstore QnA said:
Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?

Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?

Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore.
By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because among the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?

Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
 
Last edited:
Furthermore, Harry is not the first Warden that Demonreach has had to train.
He's going to tell him everything he needs to know to do his job.
He's the first Warden after Kemmler lobotomized Demonreach removing its ability to understand humans. Which would greatly impact its ability to train Wardens.
Should not be enough to imprison Ethniu, or Mab.
You are basing this on your interpretation of Mab. Demonreach is the first Elder Essence being we have encountered in the Quest as far as I know.
Odin meets regularly with Archangel Uriel. He's the only god we know who has soulfire.
Exactly. Soulfire, which is half of essence, not essence itself.
Seriously, Odin was the guy who trained the first Merlin.
The Merlin who built Demonreach was his apprentice in magic. The time magic that Merlin used to build this place probably cam from him; Odin is specifically noted to be good at time magics as part of his job as Santa Claus.
I can name you my PhD advisor. I can also tell you that there are areas in physics where I understand far more than him, and which he didn't teach me. Even in the areas he did teach me I made my own advances.

What do you think are the odds that Merlin stashed Exalt inmates here without telling him?
99%, with the 1% allocated to Merlin being magically bound to share such secrets with Odin. Standard policy is not to share secrets with allies, as people keep reminding me.
 
[X] Plan fiction
-[X] Some entertainment by means of storytelling
--[X] If they won't agree to that, Information on the outside world
---[X] Subject to veto in information security grounds.

Yeah sure. That works.
 
He's the first Warden after Kemmler lobotomized Demonreach removing its ability to understand humans. Which would greatly impact its ability to train Wardens.
You are mistaken.
There were two Wardens between Dresden and Kemmler; Butcher says so in the same interview:
more cat bits

Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?

Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
Demonreach does its training just fine.
For Dresden, for Dresden's predecessor, and the predecessor of Dresden's predecessor.


You are basing this on your interpretation of Mab. Demonreach is the first Elder Essence being we have encountered in the Quest as far as I know.
No I am not.
I am basing it on Butcher's tier list of peer powers, where Mab's peers are people like Drakul and Ferrovax.
Where god monsters like Iku Turso would walk lightly around her for fear of getting squashed.

Mab can personally punk the entire White Council solo. Every wizard, simultaneously.

Imprisoning her, or Ethniu the Last Titan, requires a rather drastic power overmatch, since its always easier to kill than to overpower and capture.
That puts a power floor on Demonreach.


Exactly. Soulfire, which is half of essence, not essence itself.
No, soulfire as in "The fires of Creation".
Which is what Shagnasty called it.
Its angel juice, the opposite of hellfire. Normally only used by loyal angels.

It took Uriel to give Harry access to it.


I can name you my PhD advisor. I can also tell you that there are areas in physics where I understand far more than him, and which he didn't teach me. Even in the areas he did teach me I made my own advances.

However, Merlin did not surpass Odin One-Eye in magic, so that is not a relevant comparison.
Indeed, Odin explicitly says to Harry that Merlin did not build Demonreach alone; that the amount of power involved in significant time travel is beyond any single mortal practitioner acting alone.

Given as we know Merlin built this place with time travel, thats pretty explicit.


99%, with the 1% allocated to Merlin being magically bound to share such secrets with Odin. Standard policy is not to share secrets with allies, as people keep reminding me.
Odin makes it clear in Cold Days Chapter 21 that he knows all about the island. In detail.
Talks about the design principles, and the perceptual blind spots of the spirit guardian of the island, and the potential temporal vulnerabilities. He even identifies the self-destruct by type.
He nodded. "Talk to me."
"Right," I said. "Um. It's about time."
"No," he said, "it's about your island."
I eyed him warily. "What do you mean?"
"What I mean," he said, "is that I know about your island. I know where it came from. I know what it does. I know what's beneath it."
"Uh," I said. "Oh."
"I'm aware of how important it is that the island be well managed. Most of the people who came to your party in Mexico are."

By which he meant the Grey Council. Vadderung was a part of it. It was a group of folks, mostly wizards of the White Council, who had joined together because it seemed like the White Council was getting close to meltdown, and they wanted to save it. But since the rats were in the walls, the only way to do it was covertly, working in cells. I wasn't sure who, exactly, was a member, except for my grandfather and Vadderung. He had come along with the rest of the mostly anonymous Grey Council when I'd gone to take my daughter back from the Red Court, and seemed to fit right in.
Of course, I was pretty sure he wasn't a wizard. I was pretty sure he was a lot more than that.
So I broke it down for him, speaking very quietly. I told him about the attack being aimed at the island from across time. Hard lines appeared in his face as I did.
"Idiots," he breathed. "Even if they could defeat the banefire . . ."
"Wait," I said. "Banefire?"
"The fail-safe," Vadderung said. "The fire the island showed you."
"Right. It'll kill everything held there rather than let them escape, right?"
"It is the only way," Vadderung said. "If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well . . ."

"Seems like it would be bad," I said.
"Not bad," Vadderung said. "The end."
"Oh," I said. "Good to know. The island didn't mention that part."
"The island cannot accept it as a possibility," Vadderung said absently.

"It should probably put its big-girl pants on, then," I said. "The way I understand it, it might already be too late. I mean, for all I know, someone cast this spell a hundred years ago. Or a hundred years from now."
Vadderung waved a hand. "Nonsense. There are laws that govern the progression of time in relation to space, like everything else."
"Meaning what?"
"Meaning that the echoes caused by the temporal event are proportionately greater than the span of time that was bridged," he said. "Had the attack been launched from a century ago, or hence, the echoes of it would have begun far, far in advance of the event—centuries ago. These echoes have appeared only within the past few days. I would guess, roughly, that the attack must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence."
"Which is tomorrow," I said. "So it's happening sometime today or sometime tomorrow."
"Most likely not tomorrow," Vadderung said. "Altering one's past is more than mildly difficult."
"The paradox thing?" I asked. "Like, if I go back and kill my grandfather, how was I ever born to go back and kill my grandfather?"
"Paradox is an overrated threat. There is . . . a quality similar to inertia at work. Once an event has occurred, there is an extremely strong tendency for that event to occur. The larger, more significant, or more energetic the event, the more it tends to remain as it originally happened, despite any interference."
I frowned. "There's . . . a law of the conservation of history?"
Vadderung grinned. "I've never heard it phrased quite like that, but it's accurate enough. In any event, overcoming that inertia requires tremendous energy, will, and a measure of simple luck. If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future."
I grunted. "So if I go back in time and kill my grandfather, what happens?"
"He beats you senseless, I suspect," Vadderung said, his gaze direct.
Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man's circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information.
"You know what I mean," I said. "Paradox? Universe goes poof?"
"If it works like that, I've never seen it, as evidenced by the fact that . . ." He spread his hands. "Here it is. I suspect a different form of apocalypse happens."
I frowned. "Like what?"
"A twinned universe," Vadderung said. "A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed, and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather."
I pursed my lips. "That . . . doesn't really end well for me in either case."
"An excellent reason not to meddle in the natural course of time, wouldn't you say? Meddling with time is an irrationally, outrageously, catastrophically dangerous and costly business. I encourage you to avoid it at all costs."
"You and the White Council," I said. "So it's going to happen sometime today or tonight."
Vadderung nodded. "And nearby."
"Why?"
"Because the energy requirements are astronomical," he said. "Bridging a temporal gap of any length is something utterly beyond the reach of any mortal practitioner acting alone. Doing such a thing and then trying to project the spell over a distance as well? The difficulty of it would be prohibitive. And do not forget how much water surrounds the island, which will tend to mitigate any energy sent toward it—that's one reason the Well was built there."
I nodded. All of that hung together, based upon everything I knew of magic. People always assume that magic is a free ride—but it isn't. You can't pull energy from nowhere, and there are laws that govern how it behaves.
"So this . . . time bomb. It has to come from how close?" I asked.
"The shores of the lake, I suspect," Vadderung said. "The island itself would be the ideal location, but I doubt that it will cooperate with any such effort."
"Not hardly," I agreed. "And you can't just scribble a chalk circle and pull this spell out of your hat. It's got to have an energy source. A big one."
"Precisely," Vadderung said.
"And those things tend to stand out."
He smiled. "They do."
"And whoever is trying to pull this off, if they know enough about futzing with time to be making this attempt, they know that the echoes will warn people that it's coming. They'll be ready to argue with anyone who tries to thwart them."

So no, he knows damn well whats down there. By his own canon characterization.
If there's an Exalt or two down there, he knows.
He may not say, but he knows.
 
Last edited:
You are mistaken.
There were two Wardens between Dresden and Kemmler; Butcher says so in the same interview:
in the Quest continuity Kemmler was the Warden directly before Dresden:
That reminds you of Bob, missing a piece of himself that he doesn't want back and it reminds you again of the account in her father's library, the name next to the very journal entry that recounted the tale of the island's inhabitants. An awful suspicion strikes you, one you: "Was the Warden before this Heinrich Kemmler?"

Slowly, menacingly the cloaked figure turns to look at you, blazing green eyes trapping yours.

"Yes."

No I am not.
I am basing it on Butcher's tier list of peer powers, where Mab's peers are people like Drakul and Ferrovax.
Where god monsters like Iku Turso would walk lightly around her for fear of getting squashed.

Mab can personally punk the entire White Council solo. Every wizard, simultaneously.

Imprisoning her, or Ethniu the Last Titan, requires a rather drastic power overmatch, since its always easier to kill than to overpower and capture.
That puts a power floor on Demonreach.
Essence level is not just directly power level, and no, Mab has not shown elder essence stuff at all.
No, soulfire as in "The fires of Creation".
Which is what Shagnasty called it.
Its angel juice, the opposite of hellfire. Normally only used by loyal angels.

It took Uriel to give Harry access to it.
When Molly observed Soulfire, she noted that it was about half of what essence is. The creative part. You have to remember that everything is essence. All of Creation, the White God themselves, even outside are expressions of essence. Have a direct quote:
"And create entirely new ones which we cannot now guess," the one eyed man says. "I have watched men at war for many an age and there is no panacea in battle anymore than in sickness." So saying he snaps his fingers and flame not blue blue but white jumps from them snapping the wards in an instant.

Essence flame, is your first thought, you know of nothing else that can burn so hot, but the more you look into the heart of that brightness eyes straining, the more you realize that is not quite true. Essence is impersonal, primordial, pure in self-contained symmetry, this is more like the essence of the caster and him alone, the body's ability to sire offspring, the mind's creative genius, the soul's fire.

Souls are nearest to Essence, the notion drags its shadow with it. That is why I get so much of it when I eat one.

"That seems a bit much," you offer, trying not to look impressed. Alas the gleam in that singular eye makes it clear he is not fooled

"I could teach you," he offers softly, temptation whispering in your ear. "Your soul is certainly potent enough. You already cast it along the edge of your blade, all you would have to do is learn to let go in such a way as to empower your works."

"The vehicle wasn't harmed," you challenge, even though you know why that was. Soulfire cannot destroy, that is what keeps it from being Essence though it can seemingly transform a set of wards from functional to non-functional if one has enough control

Discovered Path of Soulfire
● Soul Sheen: the magician invests a spark of Soulfire into their creations filling them with creative genius Cost up to 3 Essence to convert each point of Essence into an Automatic success in any magical crafting project. If the Exalt does not have enough Essence they may take levels of 'Virtual' Aggravated damage instead. This damage does not inflict penalties but will kill if one of them fills the final square in the Health Track
●● ???
●●● ???
●●●●● ???
Soulfire is a lesser discipline to direct essence manipulation. Also can be taught by Odin.

However, Merlin did not surpass Odin One-Eye in magic, so that is not a relevant comparison.
Citation needed. As far as I know, Odin doesn't have imprisoned exalts in his basement.

So no, he knows damn well whats down there. By his own canon characterization.
If there's an Exalt or two down there, he knows.
He may not say, but he knows.
Even if he knows design specifications, there's no way he knows about the inmates. Same as Ebenezar didn't know about Bob or Lash, as far as I know.
 
Yeah, Merlin dipped into earlier Ages with his time travel. I am almost certain about it. A spirit barely a thousand years old should not know the name Malfeas and the meaning of it.

Well not necessarily trough time-travel. Something to remember about Merlin is that his myth and thus his career in this setting starts with him moving Stonehenge where it is today sometime around 3000 BC. He's older than Gilgamesh. As such he may in fact have had access to accounts from the older ages if not been a part of the tail end of them before he got buried in France.
 
I made three arguments:



Only the third one was focused on the Charm Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••) being against White God's themes as you call them.

As for the whole covet thing? I was talking about how the 10th Commandment:



specifically governs what sort of magic is against White God's "themes".
Your other arguments don't make this one more relevant though. I also don't see where you're getting the connection from the 10th commandment specifically to the biblical prohibitions against magic.

Nothing about magic, sorcery, witches, or similar appears in any of the 10 commandments and the places it does appear don't make reference to any of the commandments.

Here's a page on the whole "suffer not a witch to live" thing from a source that cross references Bible verses. If you scroll through the associated elements you can see that the biblical examples of magic primarily concern themselves with people trying to mess with the dead and make sacrifices (sometimes up to their own children) to things.

In practice the people who actually believed this stuff expanded it to encompass all sorts of things, but I don't see any specific basis for that particular commandment to be primary standard.
 
Sure, but what if it's been three minutes in there for them. Exalted is a setting where you cannot play with time. Dresdenverse is not.
Someone needs to ban time travel. Like make it not possible in DF either because it allows for too much shenanigans. Hopefully we can avoid the dreaded Time Travel Arc and the dozens of plotholes opened up by one.
 
Someone needs to ban time travel. Like make it not possible in DF either because it allows for too much shenanigans. Hopefully we can avoid the dreaded Time Travel Arc and the dozens of plotholes opened up by one.

It is a pretty explicit part of the setting... but it's not technically impossible for you guys to turn it off. It would take a sorcerous working in the right place at the right time.
 
Someone needs to ban time travel. Like make it not possible in DF either because it allows for too much shenanigans. Hopefully we can avoid the dreaded Time Travel Arc and the dozens of plotholes opened up by one.
Personally I think cross age time travel kinda undercuts the concept of the ages being separated in the first place is more of a problem than doing so within one. If Merlin could go back and bring exalts forward then it makes it seem like a fluke that someone from the higher power past didn't catch on and skip to the future. At which point things get increasingly overrun by the past of the setting.

Sure, but what if it's been three minutes in there for them. Exalted is a setting where you cannot play with time. Dresdenverse is not.
How does that square with shaping defenses?

Exalted proper gets around this by making time it's own special thing that everyone is uniformly subject to and cannot defend against. If you're manipulating it as an attack then it seems like it'd be subject to defensive effects. Getting around that would require the exalt being mote tapped and unconscious, at which point I'd question why you'd leave them alive in the first place.
It is a pretty explicit part of the setting... but it's not technically impossible for you guys to turn it off. It would take a sorcerous working in the right place at the right time.
Well that's going on the list. What kind of baby primordial would we be playing if we didn't alter laws of reality that we find annoying. :V
 
in the Quest continuity Kemmler was the Warden directly before Dresden:
Point of correction:
Kemmler was the Warden directly before Alfred Demonreach lost his connection to humanity.
"Well if it stays in two pieces it might remember the wrong thing at the wrong time and then it will come here and make a mess. I'm sure you can take him big guy, but humans like their lake 65, maybe 75 degrees in summer, not boiling you know?"

"I knew humans once, before he took it from me."

"The humans?" Harry asks, confused, but the spirit does not answer.

"I think it means the knowing... the knowledge of humans." Lydia says quietly. "Spirits can be altered with the right spell, made to think differently, feel differently to forget who they were..."

That reminds you of Bob, missing a piece of himself that he doesn't want back and it reminds you again of the account in her father's library, the name next to the very journal entry that recounted the tale of the island's inhabitants. An awful suspicion strikes you, one you: "Was the Warden before this Heinrich Kemmler?"

Slowly, menacingly the cloaked figure turns to look at you, blazing green eyes trapping yours.

"Yes."


Kemmler used to run this place and there's a 'Dark One' and a 'Secret Keeper', like you in maximum containment. Testing out whether angels come when called has never been more tempting, but something tells you this is not a decision for Heaven to make. This is a decision for man, one man in particular, who would not even be here if you hadn't asked him to.
Its not saying that Kemmler was the previous Warden before Dresden.
Its saying that Kemmler was the Warden before he lost his connection to humans. Or rather, had it taken away.

There were still Wardens between Kemmler and Harry.
The White Council didnt let the island lie fallow for the entire 20th century.


When Molly observed Soulfire, she noted that it was about half of what essence is. The creative part. You have to remember that everything is essence. All of Creation, the White God themselves, even outside are expressions of essence. Have a direct quote:
Soulfire is a lesser discipline to direct essence manipulation. Also can be taught by Odin.
It doesnt say that. The fact that Molly gets Essence from nomming on souls says its not half of essence.
From your quote:
Essence flame, is your first thought, you know of nothing else that can burn so hot, but the more you look into the heart of that brightness eyes straining, the more you realize that is not quite true. Essence is impersonal, primordial, pure in self-contained symmetry, this is more like the essence of the caster and him alone, the body's ability to sire offspring, the mind's creative genius, the soul's fire.

Souls are nearest to Essence, the notion drags its shadow with it.
That is why I get so much of it when I eat one.

"That seems a bit much," you offer, trying not to look impressed. Alas the gleam in that singular eye makes it clear he is not fooled

"I could teach you," he offers softly, temptation whispering in your ear. "Your soul is certainly potent enough. You already cast it along the edge of your blade, all you would have to do is learn to let go in such a way as to empower your works."

"The vehicle wasn't harmed," you challenge, even though you know why that was. Soulfire cannot destroy, that is what keeps it from being Essence though it can seemingly transform a set of wards from functional to non-functional if one has enough control
Soulfire is not Essence.
They are related, and Molly can get Essence out of eating a soul, but they arent the same thing.



Citation needed. As far as I know, Odin doesn't have imprisoned exalts in his basement.
Citation provided.

As far as we know, neither did Merlin.
We know there are Exalts here, we dont know that they are imprisoned, as opposed to being in stasis willingly.
Like Dresden did to Thomas in Peace Talks.

Odin says that Merlin did not have the juice to build this place alone, and someone(s) certainly helped him design the spells used to construct the Well. And Odin is specifically called out for his mastery of time magics as Kringle in The Good People short story, and before that, in Cold Days.


Even if he knows design specifications, there's no way he knows about the inmates. Same as Ebenezar didn't know about Bob or Lash, as far as I know.
Why wouldnt Odin know about the inmates? There's only 6000 of them.
Dude probably knows each one by name from when they were free to roam and cause havoc.

What do you think he and Uriel talk about during those regular meetings of theirs?
They arent sharing crotchet patterns.
Or getting together to watch Premier League soccer.

=====
As for what Ebenezar does or does not know, we have no idea.
Its not the first time that someone in the setting has figured something out and kept quiet; Michael didnt tell Harry he knew about Lasciel for several years, and both Odin and a bunch of wizards know Harry is Ebenezar's grandkid but dont publicise it.

And we still dont know who walked through Harry's wards and fixed the flaw in Little Chicago right in front of Bob.
Without Bob seeing them.
 
Last edited:
Its not saying that Kemmler was the previous Warden before Dresden.
Its saying that Kemmler was the Warden before he lost his connection to humans. Or rather, had it taken away.

There were still Wardens between Kemmler and Harry.
The White Council didnt let the island lie fallow for the entire 20th century.
I am reading this differently. @DragonParadox was Alfred saying that Kemmler was the Warden directly before Dresden or not?
Soulfire is not Essence.
Yes, it's half of essence. The relevant part you are ignoring is this one:
Soulfire cannot destroy, that is what keeps it from being Essence
Direct quote. Soulfire + ability to destroy = Essence. Essentially, my guess is Soulfire + Hellfire = Essence, with each of those two being half of what makes Essence.
No it isn't.
Why wouldnt Odin know about the inmates? There's only 6000 of them.
Dude probably knows each one by name from when they were free to roam and cause havoc.
No, there's zero reason to assume that, as it would compromise the security of the whole facility. You are inventing this wholecloth.
 
Last edited:
Someone needs to ban time travel. Like make it not possible in DF either because it allows for too much shenanigans. Hopefully we can avoid the dreaded Time Travel Arc and the dozens of plotholes opened up by one.
Its already prohibitively expensive according to Odin.
As in, no single mortal practitioner has the power to do this expensive. And its supposed to be.....difficult to execute.
Im assuming time travel is allowed for a reason.

=====
I am reading this differently. @DragonParadox was Alfred saying that Kemmler was the Warden directly before Dresden or not?
Think it through.
Kemmler was the Warden in the latter 19th century; the White Council explicitly hunted him down and killed him to deny him access. There was at least one battle where Rashid earned Demonreach's ire.

They wouldnt have left the position open so he could try to become Warden again.

Yes, it's half of essence. The relevant part you are ignoring is this one:
No, its not.
In this quest so far, its aspected energy. Essence is impersonal, soulfire is not.

Direct quote. Soulfire + ability to destroy = Essence. Essentially, Soulfire + Hellfire = Essence, with each of those two being half of what makes Essence.
This isnt true either.
Soulfire and hellfire are alternative sources of power; you cant use both, and they dont come from the same place.

Furthermor, we explicitly see Dresden use soulfire offensively in canon.
He uses it to enhance his destructive spells. Its just a lot better at creative things.
Seriously, if angels couldnt use soulfire offensively, the Fallen would have a martial advantage.

Read my previous quotes again.
Specifically the one where Odin tells Dresden how a single mortal practitioner does not have the the power to do significant time travel. And yet Demonreach required multiple >thousand year jumps for Merlin to construct, simultaneously.

The scene is there in canon.
No, there's zero reason to assume that, as it would compromise the security of the whole facility. You are inventing this wholecloth.
I provided you a quote of Odin being frank about knowing all about the island.
This is not inference, its a statement.
 
Back
Top