Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I mean, BMI doesn't actually change you, it just disguises you.

A Space Marine body without any of the special features and without increased stats is nothing.
The exploit lies in the perception. BMI is a perfect effect. It doesn't give you space marine stats, but to any and every observer, you would look like a space marine. Put into a high resolution MRI machine, the doctors examining you would see black carapace and be able to study the electrical activity of the Catalepsean Node. If your finger was pricked in order to do a genetic scan, the DNA sequence would be that of a space marine.

The question is then - if one was to take the information obtained from observing Molly while she's disguised, and try to use it, would this information work? For example, if we were to disguise ourselves as a mammoth, would someone be able to de-extinct them using the DNA sequence read from us?

Basically, it doesn't need to do anything, it only need to look like it does convincingly enough.
True.

The disguise can be useful.
But the benefit to geneticists in Yog's plan should be zero.
See, there's the issue, if BMI can be seen through by a mundane genetic sequencer, it's not really a perfect disguise.
 
The exploit lies in the perception. BMI is a perfect effect. It doesn't give you space marine stats, but to any and every observer, you would look like a space marine. Put into a high resolution MRI machine, the doctors examining you would see black carapace and be able to study the electrical activity of the Catalepsean Node. If your finger was pricked in order to do a genetic scan, the DNA sequence would be that of a space marine.

The question is then - if one was to take the information obtained from observing Molly while she's disguised, and try to use it, would this information work? For example, if we were to disguise ourselves as a mammoth, would someone be able to de-extinct them using the DNA sequence read from us?

Basically, it doesn't need to do anything, it only need to look like it does convincingly enough.

See, there's the issue, if BMI can be seen through by a mundane genetic sequencer, it's not really a perfect disguise.
I think the result should be that the genetic sequencer will not return Mammoth DNA, but the people involved will think "must be a mammoth, bug in the sequencer, very unfortunate" and still don't see through the disguise for secondary reasons.
(This is similar to the Solar Perfect Disguise charm from original Exalted 2e which says it doesn't give the user knowledge of passwords, but gives the user perfect social cover to make excuses for not knowing passwords.)

You asked if BMI comes with a side of intellectus, but I fear this sort of exploit isn't a side, it leads to arbitrary intellectus via disguising yourself as "Someone who knows secret X" and then being challenged to say secret X by a door guard who will only let in the knowing ones. BMI shouldn't do that.
 
I think the result should be that the genetic sequencer will not return Mammoth DNA, but the people involved will think "must be a mammoth, bug in the sequencer, very unfortunate" and still don't see through the disguise for secondary reasons.
(This is similar to the Solar Perfect Disguise charm from original Exalted 2e which says it doesn't give the user knowledge of passwords, but gives the user perfect social cover to make excuses for not knowing passwords.)

You asked if BMI comes with a side of intellectus, but I fear this sort of exploit isn't a side, it leads to arbitrary intellectus via disguising yourself as "Someone who knows secret X" and then being challenged to say secret X by a door guard who will only let in the knowing ones. BMI shouldn't do that.
Not "someone who knows secret X", but "a fictional person who has secret X tattooed on their skin". Still, close enough for government work. This is testable, as I outlined above, and isn't even that hard to test.
 
Not a lot of votes, I'll leave this up a few more hours.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 18, 2024 at 11:23 AM, finished with 42 posts and 5 votes.

  • [x]Show up in his room.
    -[X] A combination of ATP and RVD to scout his apartment first
    -[X] Use NWS on him before he notices you to get the measure of his character
    --[X] Empathy, Etiquette, or Intimidation excellency depending on what initial scouting reveals
    [x]Show up in his room.
    -[x]ATP to make everyone ignore you. Even him until you start talking.
    -[x]NWS then start hammering him for information from there.
    [x] Just show up at his door
    -[x] As: your concerned Neighborhood Exalt
 
Not "someone who knows secret X", but "a fictional person who has secret X tattooed on their skin". Still, close enough for government work. This is testable, as I outlined above, and isn't even that hard to test.
The test should fail.
To be very clear here, I'm arguing this hypothetical exploit as a strictly OOC matter, not as something Molly should do or not. I don't want to test it and find out. I think DP should give a statement in advance that BMI does not give arbitrary intellectus, because I believe it should not work that way as a matter of game design, and also I believe it would not work that way from the rules as written. To revisit:
See, there's the issue, if BMI can be seen through by a mundane genetic sequencer, it's not really a perfect disguise.
OK, fine, then it's not a perfect disguise, and maybe you shouldn't expect it to be.
Black Mirror Incarnation doesn't say "perfect disguise". It says "perfect illusion". An illusion can look like it bleeds, but it won't synthesize real matter for someone else, that's not what an illusion is.

Speaking of matter, in addition to arbitrary intellectus, your proposed exploit also suggests arbitrary matter creation: turn into "a fictional creature with horns of substance Y". Have someone scrape or clip off horn.
 
[x] Just show up at his door
-[x] As: your concerned Neighborhood Exalt

Wasting Essence on the little hedgemage gets us in shit like Vegas where we have to face serious threats on a half full tank of gas.
 
I think the result should be that the genetic sequencer will not return Mammoth DNA, but the people involved will think "must be a mammoth, bug in the sequencer, very unfortunate" and still don't see through the disguise for secondary reasons.
(This is similar to the Solar Perfect Disguise charm from original Exalted 2e which says it doesn't give the user knowledge of passwords, but gives the user perfect social cover to make excuses for not knowing passwords.)

You asked if BMI comes with a side of intellectus, but I fear this sort of exploit isn't a side, it leads to arbitrary intellectus via disguising yourself as "Someone who knows secret X" and then being challenged to say secret X by a door guard who will only let in the knowing ones. BMI shouldn't do that.
The problem with that is that it's a disguise charm, it does physical stuff to the infernal and not mental things to other people.

Arbitrary but narrow intellectus is actually not that crazy for DF. Really powerful, but not surprising in that it's possible. It's not that different than a Naagloshi's torture intellectus or Valkyrie's knowledge of someone's death.

The issue I take is the idea that it would invent things instead of copying them.

It can make an image of being a space marine or whatever, but those things aren't actually present in the quest and may not even be possible as described in their sources in this setting. In this case perfect should involve the charm picking its own baseline of "reality" for things that are fictional in character.

The goal is to make something that looks like the image presented by a target, which isn't the same as functioning like one.

I'll go back on my previous statement with space marines; it'd be totally fair to present normal human dna instead of weird scion stuff. The goal is to make a disguise that presents as the target, looking like a 8 foot bruiser satisfies that because the rest of the details aren't things it can mirror from somewhere else.
 
The test should fail.
To be very clear here, I'm arguing this hypothetical exploit as a strictly OOC matter, not as something Molly should do or not. I don't want to test it and find out. I think DP should give a statement in advance that BMI does not give arbitrary intellectus, because I believe it should not work that way as a matter of game design, and also I believe it would not work that way from the rules as written. To revisit:

OK, fine, then it's not a perfect disguise, and maybe you shouldn't expect it to be.
Black Mirror Incarnation doesn't say "perfect disguise". It says "perfect illusion". An illusion can look like it bleeds, but it won't synthesize real matter for someone else, that's not what an illusion is.

Speaking of matter, in addition to arbitrary intellectus, your proposed exploit also suggests arbitrary matter creation: turn into "a fictional creature with horns of substance Y". Have someone scrape or clip off horn.
While I fully agree that this exploit shouldn't be part of the BMI functionality in full scope, I think it has to be retained in some capacity. Otherwise, BMI can be broken by a casual off-site security and a short amount of prep. Someone gets a temporary tattoo where Molly can't see it casually (for example, on the inside of one's lip). During a safety check they demonstrate said tattoo to a security guard. The guard then describes said tattoo to an off-site security, who check the tattoo against the catalog of authorized tattoos to check the identity of the described tattoo. They know nothing about Molly, or interact with her at all. Visual inspection only, BMI should hold up for this somehow.

So, there has to be some sort of middle ground here. Matter creation by itself should not be problematic - we have multiple charms that do the same. The matter should persist for as long as the charm is active, and vanish in a puff of essence after it's either broken or dropped. Arbitrary intellectus is more problematic, but we have charms like that too, such as TTC, which can reproduce any and all existing tools (and improve / twist them), or the arsenal charm (I forget the name) which produces technological weapons.

So, I think the compromise should be something like this:
1) For existing people (animals, aliens, plants, demons, gods, etc), and objects the illusion is perfect. Ie yes, we should be able to learn about Maeve's embarassing tattoo by transforming into her and checking our illusory body, scan a DNA sequence from a mammoth illusion, and CT scan Flick's implants in arbitrary resolution.
2) For fictional things, it'll throw up "it's magic" stuff for everything that hasn't been described in "technical drawing" detail.
The issue I take is the idea that it would invent things instead of copying them.

It can make an image of being a space marine or whatever, but those things aren't actually present in the quest and may not even be possible as described in their sources in this setting. In this case perfect should involve the charm picking its own baseline of "reality" for things that are fictional in character.

The goal is to make something that looks like the image presented by a target, which isn't the same as functioning like one.

I'll go back on my previous statement with space marines; it'd be totally fair to present normal human dna instead of weird scion stuff. The goal is to make a disguise that presents as the target, looking like a 8 foot bruiser satisfies that because the rest of the details aren't things it can mirror from somewhere else.
Yeah, this is probably the most fair interpretation.
 
While I fully agree that this exploit shouldn't be part of the BMI functionality in full scope, I think it has to be retained in some capacity. Otherwise, BMI can be broken by a casual off-site security and a short amount of prep. Someone gets a temporary tattoo where Molly can't see it casually (for example, on the inside of one's lip). During a safety check they demonstrate said tattoo to a security guard. The guard then describes said tattoo to an off-site security, who check the tattoo against the catalog of authorized tattoos to check the identity of the described tattoo. They know nothing about Molly, or interact with her at all. Visual inspection only, BMI should hold up for this somehow.

So, there has to be some sort of middle ground here. Matter creation by itself should not be problematic - we have multiple charms that do the same. The matter should persist for as long as the charm is active, and vanish in a puff of essence after it's either broken or dropped. Arbitrary intellectus is more problematic, but we have charms like that too, such as TTC, which can reproduce any and all existing tools (and improve / twist them), or the arsenal charm (I forget the name) which produces technological weapons.

So, I think the compromise should be something like this:
1) For existing people (animals, aliens, plants, demons, gods, etc), and objects the illusion is perfect. Ie yes, we should be able to learn about Maeve's embarassing tattoo by transforming into her and checking our illusory body, scan a DNA sequence from a mammoth illusion, and CT scan Flick's implants in arbitrary resolution.
2) For fictional things, it'll throw up "it's magic" stuff for everything that hasn't been described in "technical drawing" detail.

Yeah, this is probably the most fair interpretation.
I think it seems less weird when looking at it from the fluff side rather than the crunch, as with a lot a charms.

Black Mirror Incarnation is a perfect mirror, so it mirrors anything that actually exists without flaw. If you're asking for something imaginary it goes all funhouse on you and uses a distorted reflection of other stuff to fill your needs.

So the test for "can I learn X with BMI?" should be "is there a specific single image that contains it to reflect?".

You can't put on a disguise of some guy with god's secret journal on his skin or whatever unless one actually exists, because no matter how it twists things a mirror can only act on images that are already there.
 
I think it seems less weird when looking at it from the fluff side rather than the crunch, as with a lot a charms.

Black Mirror Incarnation is a perfect mirror, so it mirrors anything that actually exists without flaw. If you're asking for something imaginary it goes all funhouse on you and uses a distorted reflection of other stuff to fill your needs.

So the test for "can I learn X with BMI?" should be "is there a specific single image that contains it to reflect?".

You can't put on a disguise of some guy with god's secret journal on his skin or whatever unless one actually exists, because no matter how it twists things a mirror can only act on images that are already there.
Which is of course interesting when Molly disguises herself as normal Molly because she is reflecting the image in the principle's eye. A reflection of a reflection, but still made perfectly.

How well can BMI copy the functionality of Sidereal Dynamic Larping? If Molly say wants to disguise herself as a Police officer. Can she copy someone's idea of a police officer?
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 18, 2024 at 1:07 PM, finished with 51 posts and 8 votes.

  • [x]Show up in his room.
    -[X] A combination of ATP and RVD to scout his apartment first
    -[X] Use NWS on him before he notices you to get the measure of his character
    --[X] Empathy, Etiquette, or Intimidation excellency depending on what initial scouting reveals
    [x] Just show up at his door
    -[x] As: your concerned Neighborhood Exalt
    [x]Show up in his room.
    -[x]ATP to make everyone ignore you. Even him until you start talking.
    -[x]NWS then start hammering him for information from there.
 
Arc 12 Post 13: Sins Alive
Sins Alive

23st of January 2007 A.D.

The old red brick condo had seen better days, probably in first half of the last century, but from the look of things its corners had only been metaphorically cut —called a squircle according to Olivia, though it does take a Google search to convince you that is not the name of a a new kind of Pokemon— otherwise squatting solidly between its neighbors, with naught but bad parking to complain about. Contrary to Black Rider's feelings that is not a sign of malice nor ill wishing.

"Olivia, you wanna...?" You kind of nock a finger in the direction of the condo.

"What shoot him, we don't even know he's the bad guy," she jokes and just for a moment you and Lydia freeze. She knows death as well as she knows her own shadow, but you had seen people die too, people you were close to, who you couldn't help. For Olivia this is all just a little unreal, for all the power she now bore.

"I meant scout out, get the lay of the land," you offer instead.

A moment later she is out of the car and out of sight. Even though you know you could force yourself to see her it's still a little unnerving how your memory flinches at remembering she had been in the car moments before, almost as though you are trying to remember the physics of a dream or the melody of a lullaby all-but-lost in childhood.

"Do you think she's gonna be OK?" Lydia asks after a moment.

"She's tougher than she looks," you answer, trying not to sound stung. You would not have brought her along otherwise. Truth be told she was tougher than Harry.

"I didn't mean physically," the younger girl speaks slowly, obviously struggling for words. "She wants to make the world fair, fairer for people like her or like she used to be, but she thinks there are bad guys she can just 'deal with' and I'm just remembering Katherine. Even in the courts of the Old Gods there are those who don't deserve to pass from the world. If Olivia's gonna make the kind of change she hopes for, it is going to cost a lot of people more than their fair share, but she doesn't see that yet."

"None of us see all ends either," you reminder. "Let's just take this one step at a time." Despite your words you go out to help.

Weirdly enough you find nothing, not just nothing suspicious, nothing at all, no wards, no sign of vampires or the little folk, the most magical thing in that building is technically thresholds and Olivia reports the same. So the only thing that is left you get out of the pipes, up to the third floor though you do not quite knock, one of the things you hald learned in your watery wanderings is that Karl has dogs, and that he likes to walk them in the evening, so you wait while the excited barking gets louder until finally, with the suddenness of someone trying to prevent canine pandemonium the door smashes open. A guy around your age sporting plan black framed glasses, his personal interpretation of Jim Carrey hair and an awkward smile tries to hang on to the least of one Labrador, one Husky and one German Shepherd.


What is your greatest sin, your power reaches out and plucks the answer from the ether. It is the smell of bleach and disinfectant, it is the sound of a monitor beeping. A man white haired, but not yet frail with age lies on a hospital bed, Karl's grandfather. He knows and hence you know that he might be able to brew something to help him fight the infection, something stronger than the doctors can give him, something... more. But fear grips his heart, what if he kills him instead. Karl had never given his 'special cocktails' to anyone who wasn't in the peak of health, and anyway they barely seemed to work for other people, the doctors would handle it.

John Bennett had died three days later.


Lost 2 Essence -> Now at 10/14 (NWS and Empathy Excelency)

You lurch from the vision with a oof, like something had hit you in the chest. Wish I had not seen that, you say to yourself and to the demon in your brain, though for once he does not answer. It's not like you need his advice to understand what had happened anyway, the 'sin' was all of one piece, you could not have stopped yourself from seeing all of it anymore than a computer could have stopped at reading half a one or a quarter of a zero.

And still you were no closer to knowing how he knew about the Well.

What do you do?

[] Approach him as a member of Cauldron, talk to him about being a minor practitioner, sure he is going to be suspicious, but at least in this guise he couldn't read your aura

[] Imply, but do not say that you are investigating the follow up of the spontenous combustion incidents in September on behalf of the White Council, see how that makes him react

[] Write in


OOC: Unfortunetly you hit one of the limitations of your investigative charms, what the subject thinks of as his greatest sin is not necesarily something Molly and company will care about.
 
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OOC: Unfortunetly you hit one of the limitations of your investigative charms, what the subject thinks of as his greatest sin is not necesarily something Molly and company will care about.
Well at least we confirmed that he is actually a practitioner an alchemist even. Also we now know about a shame button we can hammer on if we ever want to drive him to action.
 
[X] Imply, but do not say that you are investigating the follow up of the spontenous combustion incidents in September on behalf of the White Council, see how that makes him react
-[x]Use BMI to copy his mind's eye image of a white council wizard.

Mostly want to explore the functionality of BMI.
 
[X] Approach him as a member of Cauldron, talk to him about being a minor practitioner, sure he is going to be suspicious, but at least in this guise he couldn't read your aura

This wouldn't really be a lie. Sure, we have other reasons that we're here, but this is something that we genuinely want to do.
 
[jk] Use BMI to take on the appearance of Hagrid, then apologize that his letter was lost in the owlmail during the wizarding civil war back around the turn of the century.
-[jk] "Yer a wizard, Karl!"


Might as well start laying the groundwork to make Karl useful, either as a potential ally or just a friendly contact on campus.

[X] Present yourself as a member of the Order of the Cauldron investigating events related to incidents of spontaneous human combustion, and other oddities, which occurred last year. If he's willing to share what he knows, along with any other information related to the supernatural in the area, we can make it worth his trouble.
-[X] "It's always interesting to meet a fellow alchemist. There are a few among the Order who could claim some some talent in the art of brewing, but it's fair to say I have the most expertise in that regard. I might be convinced to part with a recipe if your information proves helpful."
-[X] Empathy excellency
 
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Ok, so, that's interesting. There's little suspicious about this guy, and he seems like a human. He might even have abandoned his alchemy, mostly, out of shame. Or started working on perfecting it. I am sympathetic to him at the moment, even if still suspicious.

Now, the options gives... We are not here on White Council's behalf, and telling him we are investigating might spook him. The "approach as a member of White Council" potentially has a big downside. @DragonParadox how close do alchemical steroids come to breaking "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others" Law? Because he is boosting them, possibly to unnatural degree.

[X] Present yourself as a member of the Order of the Cauldron investigating events related to incidents of spontaneous human combustion, and other oddities, which occurred last year. If he's willing to share what he knows, along with any other information related to the supernatural in the area, we can make it worth his trouble.
-[X] "It's always interesting to meet a fellow alchemist. There are a few among the Order who could claim some some talent in the art of brewing, but it's fair to say I have the most expertise in that regard. I might be convinced to part with a recipe if your information proves helpful."
-[X] Empathy excellency
 
Now, the options gives... We are not here on White Council's behalf, and telling him we are investigating might spook him. The "approach as a member of White Council" potentially has a big downside. @DragonParadox how close do alchemical steroids come to breaking "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others" Law? Because he is boosting them, possibly to unnatural degree.

Not at all, he would have to change people to something dramatically and unrecognizably themselves. The problem is not with giving someone another point of DEX, it is with turning people into frogs.
 
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