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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Azais said:
If the government could to pretend that the supernaturals with human body counts under our direct control don't exist (otherwise it's better to break any hope of a close partnership now as I want to take care of our own much more than worry about the government) and also evaluate things with a supernatural lens why wouldn't they do the same with Marcone?

Especially when he is at least one step removed from us, with Lash being the one who will take care of any business between the two of them or not.
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Cause society at large is notoriously bad about giving any attention at all to poor and homeless people. As far as the feds are concerned it can be written off as a charitable shelter for sewer mutants and only be a problem if we make it one with more obvious crimes.

Marcone is a big name in organized crime in canon. There are entire task forces pointed at his operations across multiple jurisdictions. There are people whose whole job is to at least try to stop guys like him from subverting law enforcement, even if they're not always as effective as desired.

I guess it's not so much that he's a criminal specifically as it is that he's a mortal one and the systems and assumptions in place around him are different. What we're talking about here is basically like doing business with Al Capone before he was convicted.

Anyone not clued in to the supernatural but is plugged in enough to track this kind of thing who sees an association like that doing shady business with the feds is probably going to have concerns.

I'd assume that's a somewhat narrow pool, but since the Library felt those people were prevalent and powerful enough to bring up when speaking with Mogo's cyberpunk cousin, a Greek god or ghost powerful enough to cosplay one, and the newly ascended investiture-sorcerer of Las Vegas about how the continent almost exploded and how to make sure it wouldn't happen again that they're important.
 
Yog said:
EDIT: This is a charm that starts the development of a Primordial soul structure basically
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Have to admit, I love the idea of infernals having more than just the devil tiger charm as a progression towards becoming primordials 2.0.

As I saw somewhere, the problem with infernal (and abyssals too) in the second edition was that any notion of playing a splat with the express purpose of actually having it become a completely different one later is not good, so infernals should really slowly develop more and more primordial features, and not have a single thing changing them.

Don't know if third edition changed this or not, hope it did.

Anyway, for our purpose, we already have our world body, a way to get our subsouls is great.

BronzeTongue said:
and the base one is ridiculous
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It really seems like the creator feared it would be too powerful and nerfed it to the ground to stop that with the *clones are bog standard mortal parts* (which is overreacting).
 
Yog said:
As a variant for the base charm, I would put in something "the clones reserve 1 mote of essence from your pool, and can use it to commit suicide when they want, exploding in a fiery explosion" or something like that. Or we can use Magnanimous Warding Glyph on our clones as a means of instant suicide.

I like the current version of my clone charm because it sets up a stage for demon development, where our clones become our third circle souls as they progress and diverge and develop.
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That's fair, and I like that theme too. It just seems like a waste mechanically speaking to use slots in a limited charm set that's unique to Molly for things we should be able to get from the base stuff but can't due to disinterested charm design from Holden.

This case is just like how he converted Witness to Darkness. Seeing in the dark and a dc reduction to manipulation in darkness isn't worth an increase to everything in a well lit room, and since prerequisites don't exist anymore it's not a gate to better stuff, so it'll basically never get used unless you're designing a NPC for the players to beat.

If it was +/- 1 difficulty to manipulation alone, or +/- 1 to everything that'd be a different story because they'd at least be to scale. If it was a dice penalty it might even be workable because it's not so extreme. Hell, I'd at least consider -1 for socials at the price of +1 to everything else depending on the build.

This was just lazy though.


Azais said:
Not to mention that the government has done much worse things than ignoring a mafia boss for much smaller advantages than something like Molly.
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These things cost though is the point. There's only so much give, and we should spend where we need to, but is this worth the trade? Especially because Marcone is exactly the type to play the implications game about how annoyed his business partners would be by interruptions in his operating hours.

Something the feds won't confirm with us, because they will choke on their own tongues before giving the impression they're asking someone's else's permission to enforce the law.

All of this is workable, but I thought it was worth at least considering this angle going into the exchange.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Marcone is a big name in organized crime in canon. There are entire task forces pointed at his operations across multiple jurisdictions. There are people whose whole job is to at least try to stop guys like him from subverting law enforcement, even if they're not always as effective as desired.
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Thing is, it's not Molly's job to deal with the mundane side of Marcone's organization. She already has multiple supernatural conspiracies and groups she needs to track, prepare for and run damage control to curb. Just look at her possible plans for the month. There are like 4-5 times more things she may want to do than she could actually achieve even with Exalted powers.
And Marcone is also very much cordially associating with all the big wigs in Chicago's city administration.

As long as he doesn't bring his criminal business into dealing with Molly that's not her problem to deal with. In fact I'm pretty sure if she tries to use her powers to help she would ruin a dozen different investigations. She doesn't have the legal standing or experience to manage a conviction of mundane mafioso. Could she do it? Yes, if she spends the time, effort and resources. Should she do it? Not as long as Marcone is willing to maintain plausible deniability.

Molly has Outsiders to hunt.

If, if Marcone makes it Molly's problem than she should deal with it.
 
I think it is important to say that we do not yet have the opportunity to make Marcone's life hell on earth legally. But if we buy a bureaucratic charm...Yes, it will be brutal. Although neither Marcone nor Molly herself know about this.

I think that we are unlikely to be able to completely destroy it legally now... But we don't need that. We have other levers of pressure on crime other than putting Marcone in prison.
 
Zoolimar said:
Thing is, it's not Molly's job to deal with the mundane side of Marcone's organization. She already has multiple supernatural conspiracies and groups she needs to track, prepare for and run damage control to curb. Just look at her possible plans for the month. There are like 4-5 times more things she may want to do than she could actually achieve even with Exalted powers.
And Marcone is also very much cordially associating with all the big wigs in Chicago's city administration.

As long as he doesn't bring his criminal business into dealing with Molly that's not her problem to deal with. In fact I'm pretty sure if she tries to use her powers to help she would ruin a dozen different investigations. She doesn't have the legal standing or experience to manage a conviction of mundane mafioso. Could she do it? Yes, if she spends the time, effort and resources. Should she do it? Not as long as Marcone is willing to maintain plausible deniability.

Molly has Outsiders to hunt.

If, if Marcone makes it Molly's problem than she should deal with it.
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I don't precisely disagree, but my concern is more one about balancing our diplomatic interests.

My contention is that because he's a big name his rep follows him everywhere, which has its ups and downs. There are places it can be helpful and places where's it's extremely detrimental.

Mob bosses love doing business by second to third order connections, and we already have one via Helen. An outside observer looking at this from a law enforcement perspective could reasonably become suspicious about how we're facilitating exchanges mysterious exchanges a Mob boss and also doing something they can't see with obscure federal organizations.
 
Why did we buy a disguise charm? We will go to the meeting under the disguise of someone who does not exist and will only remove it in private with Macrone. A couple of precautions and no one will be able to track us to him.

The contact with Helen itself does not incriminate because she meets other people too often without any connection with Macrone for every contact she has to be suspected of this.
 
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Ivar said:
Why did we buy a disguise charm? We will go to the meeting under the disguise of someone who does not exist and will only remove it in private with Macrone. A couple of precautions and no one will be able to track us to him.
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Does Molly even need to meet with Marcone? If we are putting Helen in contact with Tiffany there is no need for Molly to even do anything personally. And all the suspicion falls on Tiffany and Harry.
If someone versed in supernatural side finds about the Tiffany-Marcone association they are more likely to think that it is Tiffany who is the real problem.
 
Azais said:
and also evaluate things with a supernatural lens why wouldn't they do the same with Marcone?
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Because he isn't a supernatural and is a well known crime lord?

The point is Lash works closely with us and Molly is a massive political entity. Being known to work with drug dealers and the like gives a different message entirely than being known to work with those of the hidden world in which the standards are known to be very different due to inhuman mindsets, customs and the like.
Zoolimar said:
Helen in contact with Tiffany there is no need for Molly to even do anything personally. And all the suspicion falls on Tiffany and Harry.
If someone versed in supernatural side finds about the Tiffany-Marcone association they are more likely to think that it is Tiffany who is the real problem.
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We do questing with Tiffany though, she is apart of our party. Who your friends keep as friends reflects greatly on you from a political perspective.
 
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Arc 12 Post 5: On the Mark
  • Threadmarks
    • On the Mark ​

    20th of January 2007 A.D.

    "I'm guessing you don't mean the kind of healing someone could get out of an alchemist's bottle?" you ask after a moment's thought.

    Helen's answering nod is about as telling as the face of the overcast sky above.

    "I know someone who can heal any mundane ailment, but she is going to ask for her own price." Part of you wants to offer assurances that it would not be too onerous, but the two of you have common causes more than common principles, a thing that is easy to forget when she's around.

    ***​

    21st of January 2007 A.D.

    Regained 2 Willpower -> Now at 6/9

    Jesus Christ, there's really not much else to say on hearing the story of the Bekits, they surely need his mercy. You have heard of worse, thanks to Nemesis you have dealt with worse, but there is something about the sheer mundane nature of the violence and suffering involved that makes the whole thing even more sick. Helen has a daughter in a coma, in the hospital because someone took a shot at John Marcone back in '98 all of thirteen years old. The cops couldn't find the shooter so Helen and her husband tried going after Marcone, lost because of course you'd lose against Gentleman Johnny in this town and then tried going ofter him themsleves. This being about the point where most people would get a shotgun or started looking into homemade bombs they instead got into black magic rites to tear out people's hearts at the behest of some asshole called Victor Sells whom Harry had investigated seven years ago. Both of them got arested, got sent to jail which is where Greg Bekit died.

    "She's working for Marcone..." you shake your head not so much in confussion as denial.

    Tiffany tsks. 'You know why,' her look says without words and she's right, you just don't want to say it as F-ed up as all of this is. "Keep your enemies closer... But why is Marcone allowing her to run one of his buisnesses? I can't believe he doesn't do background checks."

    "According to Harry," Lash motions at the obviously uncofortable, though no longer bandaged wizard next to her. "Guilt. He's got a thing about hurting kids and he agrees that he was in some part to blame, just not enough to go to jail."

    "Surprising that no one made use of child coombatants against him given the weakness," Usum chines in, presumably since he did not think the conversation was disturbing enough already. In response you throw back something between an order and a plea to slow down with the tactical help.

    "So when you heal the girl...?"

    "I'll have an in with the local mob boss," she finishes brightly. "Oh don't give me that look Harry! Would you rather I ask for payment from the grieving mother?"

    "Here's a thought, you could just not ask for anything," he snipes. That gets your attention. Harry Dresden is not generally the kind of man to snipe, but it seems he had come against a realization as inevitable as it was unpleasant, Tiffany MacNeil is not a nice person just because she is nice to him and she does not value his good graces more than she does whatever influence she might be able to squeeze out of Marcone.

    "If it's sainthood you are looking for Harry I'm afraid you are marking up the wrong tree, atop the wrong mountain, on the wrong continent," the once-Fallen answers in a joking almost singsong tone, though her eyes are hard. It's about making a point as much as it is about profit for her, that she's not just going to live her life by his rules.

    Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 14/15

    In your heart of hearts there's a little thrill to see that distance between them, physical as much as metaphorical, but your brain kindly informs your heart to shut up there's more important things afoot. "Where's... Amada, Helen said her name was, going to stay? What's she going to do? She's been in a coma almost half her life?"

    "Humans are a lot more adaptable than you give yourselves credit for," Tiffany says, now almost clinically detached. "Neuroplasticity is the term I think, just as one might adapt to physical injury so too can one do so for social harm so long as there is a foundation for them to work off of. I could grant her the skills she is lacking with a contract, but that would draw her wholly into this world without the ability to make a proper choice in the matter."

    It's clear Harry would like to feel better about at least this line being there, but at the same time feeling guilty that he is not standing up to this more. It does not take Essence-sharpened sight to see he'd really like you to argue against Tiffany getting her hooks into Marcone.

    What does Molly think about Tiffany trying to get an in with the local Mob boss?

    [] Good for her, it sounds useful

    [] Tell her to be careful, this is the kind of thing that raises her profile and as the story itself shows, it is the kind of profile some people are liable to treat as a shooting gallery

    [] Ask her not to cut deals with Marcone, it does not seem worth it

    [] Write in

    OOC: Arguments to convince one or both of them are of course welcome.
     
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    • BronzeTongue said:
    I don't precisely disagree, but my concern is more one about balancing our diplomatic interests.

    My contention is that because he's a big name his rep follows him everywhere, which has its ups and downs. There are places it can be helpful and places where's it's extremely detrimental.

    Mob bosses love doing business by second to third order connections, and we already have one via Helen. An outside observer looking at this from a law enforcement perspective could reasonably become suspicious about how we're facilitating exchanges mysterious exchanges a Mob boss and also doing something they can't see with obscure federal organizations.
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    By this metric, we're already viewed as associated with Marcone. Remember, most people think that "mob enforcer for Marcone" either is or recently was Harry's main job.
     
    [X] Tell her to be careful, this is the kind of thing that raises her profile and as the story itself shows, it is the kind of profile some people are liable to treat as a shooting gallery
     
    [X] Good for her, it sounds useful
    -[X] Offer to accompany Lash to any meetings she has with Marcone. It will be a good chance to get a read on the man, and to touch base with Gard.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    "Three," Lydia speaks up quietly from the corner. She had come along for moral support, but since it soon became obvious you would not need it she had contend herself with sticking with Maria talking about... dogs you think. Her cousin runs a shelter.
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    Just noticed this when rereading. I amguessing that's Lydia setting up to get a dog to use Companions of the Hunter on. I think we could spare an AP to look for a Ci Annwn for her.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    "Surprising that no one made use of child combatants against him given the weakness,"
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    Usum buddy you are smarter than this. Yes child combatants might be more effective because of psychological reasons, but they are still kids and therefore not very good combatants in general so the chances of failure is fairly high and then those same psychological reasons make Marcone not just your enemy, but a enemy willing to make unprofitable sacrifices to put you down. It also gives Marcone allies against you that he normally would not be able to mobilize.

    Of course despite this I expect someone has tried. They don't seem to be around.
     
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    [X] Tell her to be careful, this is the kind of thing that raises her profile and as the story itself shows, it is the kind of profile some people are liable to treat as a shooting gallery
     
    fictionfan said:
    Usum buddy you are smarter than this. Yes child combatants might be more effective because of psychological reasons, but they are still kids and therefore not very good combatants in general so the chances of failure is fairly high and then those same psychological reasons make Marcone not just your enemy, but a enemy willing to make unprofitable sacrifices to put you down. It also gives Marcone allies against you that he normally would not be able to mobilize.
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    Or maybe Usum has picked up on the contemporary use of "child" as a synonym for "minor" (under-18) who can very much be good combatants at 17, which would have been several years of adulthood in the social context of many historical and some contemporary societies.
     
    Exmorri said:
    Or maybe Usum has picked up on the contemporary use of "child" as a synonym for "minor" (under-18) who can very much be good combatants at 17, which would have been several years of adulthood in the social context of many historical and some contemporary societies.
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    Yep, he means arm the 16-17 year olds, not toddlers or something, that would just be a waste of perfectly good guns.
     
    [X] Tell her to be careful, this is the kind of thing that raises her profile and as the story itself shows, it is the kind of profile some people are liable to treat as a shooting gallery
     
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