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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Votes tied.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Mar 3, 2024 at 8:29 PM, finished with 454 posts and 35 votes.
  • [X] Plan Feeding and Healing v2
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation, 20 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X] Awareness 1, 3 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [X] I Can See You, But You Can't See Me!
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    --[X] Purchase Black Mirror Incarnation (15 XP)
    --[X] Purchase Inner Devil Unchained (12 XP)
    --[X] Purchase Awareness up to 2 Dots (5 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alertness to 2 Dots (2 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alchemy to 4 Dots (6 XP)
    --[X] Total XP Spent: 40
    -[X] Lydia - 15 XP, plus 12 Molly XP
    --[X] Purchase Companions of the Hunter (12 XP)
    --[X] Purchase Warding of Divine Ancestry (15 XP)
    -[X] Tiffany - 15 XP, plus 7 Molly XP
    --[X] Purchase Lore of Awakening up to 3 Dots (22 XP)
    -[X] Unspent XP: 1
    [X]Plan Saints and Sinners
    -[X]MOLLY: 48XP (11 pts sent to party members, 1 pt unspent)
    --[X]Black Mirror Incarnation: 5 dots: 15xp
    --[X]Inner Devils Unchained: 4 dots: 12xp
    --[X]Running To Forever: 1 dot: 4xp
    --[X]Ox-Body Technique: 1 dot: 3xp
    --[X]Countermagic[Human]: 3xp
    --[X]Alchemy 3+4: 6xp
    --[X] Awareness 1, 3 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    --[X]Remainder: 1xp
    -[X]LASH: 20(Base 15 + Molly 5)
    --[X]Lore of Awakening 1: Find The Faithful: 7xp
    --[X]Lore of Awakening 2: Cleanse: 5xp
    --[X]Alertness 1: 3xp
    --[X]Merit: Green Thumb(Tradition Book Verbena p70): 1 dot: 3xp
    --[X]Merit: Celestial Attunement(V: DA Revised p274): 1 dot: 3xp
    --[X]Flaw: Changelings Eyes(C20): 1 dot: 3xp
    -[X]LYDIA 21(Base 15 + Molly 6)
    --[X]Warding of Divine Ancestry: 5 dot: 15xp
    --[X]Arms of Iron: 2 dot: 6xp
    [X]Plan Minion care
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    –[X]False Springs Beckon (•••) 9XP
    –[X]Inner Devils Unchained (••••) 12Xp
    –[X]Endless Torment Emanation (•••) 12 XP
    –[X]Shadow Spite Curse (••) 6XP
    –[X]Golden Years Tarnished Black (••) 6 XP
    --[X]Prayer eating first dot 2 XP
    --[X]1 XP left over
    -[X]Lydia
    –[X]Companions of the Hunter (••••) 12 XP
    --[X]Leadership (•) 2 Xp
    --[X]1 XP saved
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X]Brawl 1 2xp
    –[X]Animal ken 1 2xp
    –[X] Second dot of lore of awakening 5 XP.
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation, 20 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing + Defence
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition, 16 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    --[X] Prince of Ruin Attitude, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [x] Plan: Trying to buy votes. V2
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    --[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation, 20 XP
    --[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition, 16 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X]Running To Forever, 4xp
    -[X] Lydia - 15 XP
    --[X] Purchase Warding of Divine Ancestry (15 XP)
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X]Brawl 1 2xp
    –[X] Second dot of lore of awakening 5 XP.
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing + Defence v. Yog
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition, 16 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    --[X] Prince of Ruin Attitude, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [x] Plan: Molly's Warp storm and Demons
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    --[X] Alchemy 5, 22 XP
    --[X] Mana Manipulation, 13 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    -[X] Lydia - 15 XP
    --[X] Purchase Warding of Divine Ancestry (15 XP)
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X] Second dot of lore of awakening 5 XP.
    [X] Sorceress Might and Alchemical Perfection
    -[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dots (22 XP)
    --[X] Prima Metallum ●●●
    --[X] Mana Crystal ●●●●
    --[X] Thunderclap & Flash ●●●●●
    -[X] Purchase Alchemy Recipes (10 XP)
    --[X] High Kevlar ●
    --[X] Greater Asprin ●
    --[X] Metaphysical Gear ●●
    --[X] Astarte Venerian ●●●
    --[X] Nabu Mercury ●●●
    -[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (13 XP)
    --[X] Mana Field Perception ●
    --[X] Infusion ●●
    --[X] Shape Mana ●●●
    -[X] Buy Ancient Sorcery - The Tree's Many Branches (10 XP)
    -[X] Buy Awareness to 2 Dots (5 XP)
    -[X] Total XP Spent: 60
    [x] Plan Feeding and Healing + Defense
    [X] Sorceress Might and Alchemical Perfection V.4
    -[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dots (22 XP)
    -[X] Purchase Alchemy Recipes (4 XP)
    --[X] High Kevlar ●
    --[X] Greater Asprin ●
    --[X] Metaphysical Gear ●●
    -[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (13 XP)
    -[X] Buy Inner Devils Unchained (12 XP)
    -[X] Buy Fortune to 2 Dots (7 XP)
    -[X] Total XP Spent: 58
    ---[X] Lydia
    --[X] Sorcery Counterspell (12 XP)
    --[X] Excellence of the Tireless Psychopomp, Wits (4 XP)
    --[X] Total XP Spent 16
    ---[X] Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    --[X] Second dot of lore of Awakening (5 XP.)
    –[X] Total XP Spent (12 XP)
    [X]Plan Minion care
    - [x] Molly 57 xp
    –[X]False Springs Beckon (•••) 9XP
    –[X]Inner Devils Unchained (••••) 12Xp
    –[X]Endless Torment Emanation (•••) 12 XP
    –[X]Shadow Spite Curse (••) 6XP
    –[X]Golden Years Tarnished Black (••) 6 XP
    --[X]Prayer eating first dot 2 XP
    -[X]Lydia
    –[X]Companions of the Hunter (••••) 12 XP
    --[X]Leadership (•) 2 Xp
    --[X]1 XP saved
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X]Brawl 1 2xp
    –[X]Animal ken 1 2xp
    –[X] 5 Xp left over
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TheWoo said:
Here's an argument for the clones. The look on Charity's face when she learns her daughter can now multiply. :p
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Counterargument:
The look on Charity's face when she wakes up and sees a woman who looks exactly like her in the kitchen.
Even better, the look on the entire family's face when they wake up for breakfast and see two Charity's
:V
 
uju32 said:
Counterargument:
The look on Charity's face when she wakes up and sees a woman who looks exactly like her in the kitchen.
Even better, the look on the entire family's face when they wake up for breakfast and see two Charity's
:V
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Better have a parry action ready because it seems likely Charity attacks well calling for help.
 
Hello all, been a while. Now that the arc is finished and I can read it without stressing out I'll be spending the next few days catching up, should be good fun.

Baring in mind that I haven't read the last arc yet, and I'm reading through the build arguments as we speak, I think I'll lay this vote down for now, but feel free to lobby me one way or the other.

[X] I Can See You, But You Can't See Me!
 
Degorium said:
You are mistaken about the counter Magic. We don't have exalted counter magic we have Night folk counter Magic. Any creature that has magic at all has countermagic, it's a rule that was introduced by mage that irritated everyone who ever read it but it is a rule that exists, Molly clones with an occult of five can cast innate counter magic just like any Kinfolk or revenant or ghoul.

Now the forums I was on when they saw the rule in Mage 20 immediately got irritated because it was very obvious that was to stop the "well the Mage just turns this vampire with no active magic defenses like thaumaturgy into a lawn chair" arguments. Which is made blatantly obvious when vampires despite their generation were given a willpower-based roll but werewolves got limited by their gnosis. Our clones count in the same category as the vampires in that instance which means they roll a full nine dice countermagic on effects cast on them. Before you say well "no clones aren't night folk" hunters on the list and so are hedge Wizards.

Which comes back around to if the Clones are given any level of preparation at all how do you subdue them without instantly killing them or them self-terminating on you or by themselves or if we give them a means to fight at all by trying to kill whoever's taking them. We can make a sword that is capable of fighting in less than 5 minutes. The defense isn't just win forehead it's they can't win but neither can the enemy and them losing hard enough is a win condition. This also ignores the idea of just not sending them out into the real world which would still be worth it because we'd get to know more about our own inner world.

Edit: God damn it I didn't even want splintered Gale incarnation but all these ideas that a mortal person with near maximum combat pool and Magic defense pool are in any way defenseless is driving me nuts.
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Molly has night folk counter magic because she's an exalt, and the clones do not get her powers other than the carve out for passive abilities. They aren't hunters, vampires, or even night folk, they're the exaltation's best effort at pretending to be normal.

Baseline the clones have a few buffs and narrow mental defenses, but are otherwise a strong 18 year old who's good with a sword. That's lunch to most supernatural predators.

You can fix that, but it requires substantial investment in other charms and spending exp to kit them out that can't benefit us directly. Even assuming you do all that Molly has drawn exalted grade heat and isn't autobot. She can't manufacture something powerful enough to credibly guard an informational "I win" button to fighting her against active effort by some of the strongest people in the setting.

I don't doubt you could make a Molly that's mostly safe from lone opportunistic predation, but that's not what we're dealing with here.

Edit: error
 
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fictionfan said:
Better have a parry action ready because it seems likely Charity attacks well calling for help.
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What would be even more impressive would be if momdar simply saw through the entire thing because Molly was making a particular dish.
Because Charity's bonus against her daughter is just that terrifying.
:V
BronzeTongue said:
Molly has night folk counter magic because she's an exalt, and the clones do not get her powers other than the passives carve out for passive abilities. They aren't hunters, vampires, or even night folk, they're the exaltation's best effort at pretending to be normal.

Baseline the clones have a few buffs and narrow mental defenses, but are otherwise a strong 18 year old who's good with a sword. That's lunch to most supernatural predators.
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To be fair, if they get hit with IDU they get night folk countermagic.
But, yeah, you're correct that at base they arent all that.

Duquette7 said:
Hello all, been a while. Now that the arc is finished and I can read it without stressing out I'll be spending the next few days catching up, should be good fun.

Baring in mind that I haven't read the last arc yet, and I'm reading through the build arguments as we speak, I think I'll lay this vote down for now, but feel free to lobby me one way or the other.

[X] I Can See You, But You Can't See Me!
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Thank you for breaking the tie.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Mar 3, 2024 at 9:28 PM, finished with 461 posts and 37 votes.
  • [X] I Can See You, But You Can't See Me!
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    --[X] Purchase Black Mirror Incarnation (15 XP)
    --[X] Purchase Inner Devil Unchained (12 XP)
    --[X] Purchase Awareness up to 2 Dots (5 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alertness to 2 Dots (2 XP)
    --[X] Increase Alchemy to 4 Dots (6 XP)
    --[X] Total XP Spent: 40
    -[X] Lydia - 15 XP, plus 12 Molly XP
    --[X] Purchase Companions of the Hunter (12 XP)
    --[X] Purchase Warding of Divine Ancestry (15 XP)
    -[X] Tiffany - 15 XP, plus 7 Molly XP
    --[X] Purchase Lore of Awakening up to 3 Dots (22 XP)
    -[X] Unspent XP: 1
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing v2
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation, 20 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X] Awareness 1, 3 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [X]Plan Saints and Sinners
    -[X]MOLLY: 48XP (11 pts sent to party members, 1 pt unspent)
    --[X]Black Mirror Incarnation: 5 dots: 15xp
    --[X]Inner Devils Unchained: 4 dots: 12xp
    --[X]Running To Forever: 1 dot: 4xp
    --[X]Ox-Body Technique: 1 dot: 3xp
    --[X]Countermagic[Human]: 3xp
    --[X]Alchemy 3+4: 6xp
    --[X] Awareness 1, 3 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    --[X]Remainder: 1xp
    -[X]LASH: 20(Base 15 + Molly 5)
    --[X]Lore of Awakening 1: Find The Faithful: 7xp
    --[X]Lore of Awakening 2: Cleanse: 5xp
    --[X]Alertness 1: 3xp
    --[X]Merit: Green Thumb(Tradition Book Verbena p70): 1 dot: 3xp
    --[X]Merit: Celestial Attunement(V: DA Revised p274): 1 dot: 3xp
    --[X]Flaw: Changelings Eyes(C20): 1 dot: 3xp
    -[X]LYDIA 21(Base 15 + Molly 6)
    --[X]Warding of Divine Ancestry: 5 dot: 15xp
    --[X]Arms of Iron: 2 dot: 6xp
    [X]Plan Minion care
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    –[X]False Springs Beckon (•••) 9XP
    –[X]Inner Devils Unchained (••••) 12Xp
    –[X]Endless Torment Emanation (•••) 12 XP
    –[X]Shadow Spite Curse (••) 6XP
    –[X]Golden Years Tarnished Black (••) 6 XP
    --[X]Prayer eating first dot 2 XP
    --[X]1 XP left over
    -[X]Lydia
    –[X]Companions of the Hunter (••••) 12 XP
    --[X]Leadership (•) 2 Xp
    --[X]1 XP saved
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X]Brawl 1 2xp
    –[X]Animal ken 1 2xp
    –[X] Second dot of lore of awakening 5 XP.
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing + Defence v. Yog
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition, 16 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    --[X] Prince of Ruin Attitude, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation, 20 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [X] Plan Feeding and Healing + Defence
    -[X] Molly, 41 XP
    --[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition, 16 XP
    --[X] Alchemy 4, 6 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    --[X] Alertness 2, 2 XP
    --[X] Prince of Ruin Attitude, 4 XP
    -[X] Lydia, 15 XP + 12 XP = 27 XP
    --[X] Warding of Divine Ancestry, 15 XP
    --[X] Companions of the Hunter, 12 XP
    -[X] Tiffany, 15 XP + 7 XP = 22 XP
    --[X] Lore of Awakening 3 dots, 22 XP
    [x] Plan: Trying to buy votes. V2
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    --[X] Splintered Gale Incarnation, 20 XP
    --[X] Counter-Conceptual Interposition, 16 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X]Running To Forever, 4xp
    -[X] Lydia - 15 XP
    --[X] Purchase Warding of Divine Ancestry (15 XP)
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X]Brawl 1 2xp
    –[X] Second dot of lore of awakening 5 XP.
    [x] Plan: Molly's Warp storm and Demons
    -[X]Molly 60 xp
    --[X] Alchemy 5, 22 XP
    --[X] Mana Manipulation, 13 XP
    --[X] Maggot Mana Plague, 8 XP
    --[X] Inner Devils Unchained, 12 XP
    --[X] Awareness 2, 5 XP
    -[X] Lydia - 15 XP
    --[X] Purchase Warding of Divine Ancestry (15 XP)
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X] Second dot of lore of awakening 5 XP.
    [X] Sorceress Might and Alchemical Perfection
    -[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dots (22 XP)
    --[X] Prima Metallum ●●●
    --[X] Mana Crystal ●●●●
    --[X] Thunderclap & Flash ●●●●●
    -[X] Purchase Alchemy Recipes (10 XP)
    --[X] High Kevlar ●
    --[X] Greater Asprin ●
    --[X] Metaphysical Gear ●●
    --[X] Astarte Venerian ●●●
    --[X] Nabu Mercury ●●●
    -[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (13 XP)
    --[X] Mana Field Perception ●
    --[X] Infusion ●●
    --[X] Shape Mana ●●●
    -[X] Buy Ancient Sorcery - The Tree's Many Branches (10 XP)
    -[X] Buy Awareness to 2 Dots (5 XP)
    -[X] Total XP Spent: 60
    [X] Sorceress Might and Alchemical Perfection
    [x] Plan Feeding and Healing + Defense
    [X] Sorceress Might and Alchemical Perfection V.4
    -[X] Increase Alchemy to 5 Dots (22 XP)
    -[X] Purchase Alchemy Recipes (4 XP)
    --[X] High Kevlar ●
    --[X] Greater Asprin ●
    --[X] Metaphysical Gear ●●
    -[X] Buy Mana Manipulation to 3 Dots (13 XP)
    -[X] Buy Inner Devils Unchained (12 XP)
    -[X] Buy Fortune to 2 Dots (7 XP)
    -[X] Total XP Spent: 58
    ---[X] Lydia
    --[X] Sorcery Counterspell (12 XP)
    --[X] Excellence of the Tireless Psychopomp, Wits (4 XP)
    --[X] Total XP Spent 16
    ---[X] Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    --[X] Second dot of lore of Awakening (5 XP.)
    –[X] Total XP Spent (12 XP)
    [X]Plan Minion care
    - [x] Molly 57 xp
    –[X]False Springs Beckon (•••) 9XP
    –[X]Inner Devils Unchained (••••) 12Xp
    –[X]Endless Torment Emanation (•••) 12 XP
    –[X]Shadow Spite Curse (••) 6XP
    –[X]Golden Years Tarnished Black (••) 6 XP
    --[X]Prayer eating first dot 2 XP
    -[X]Lydia
    –[X]Companions of the Hunter (••••) 12 XP
    --[X]Leadership (•) 2 Xp
    --[X]1 XP saved
    -[X]Tiffany
    --[X]Buy first dot of lore of awakening 7 xp
    –[X]Brawl 1 2xp
    –[X]Animal ken 1 2xp
    –[X] 5 Xp left over
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Tie broken by 1 vote.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Molly has night folk counter magic because she's an exalt, and the clones do not get her powers other than the passives carve out for passive abilities. They aren't hunters, vampires, or even night folk, they're the exaltation's best effort at pretending to be normal.

Baseline the clones have a few buffs and narrow mental defenses, but are otherwise a strong 18 year old who's good with a sword. That's lunch to most supernatural predators.

You can fix that, but it requires substantial investment in other charms and spending exp to kit them out that can't benefit us directly. Even assuming you do all that Molly has drawn exalted grade heat and isn't autobot. She can't manufacture something powerful enough to credibly guard an informational "I win" button to fighting her against active effort by some of the strongest people in the setting.

I don't doubt you could make a Molly that's mostly safe from lone opportunistic predation, but that's not what we're dealing with here.
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The Clones would have night Folk counter Magic. Because they know about magic and have an occult score. Because Hunters both imbued and not are included along with humans with regular true faith can also use counter magic like that same with vampires who have no active magic outside of vampiric disciplines to begin with.

There's literally an optional rule that says that if they don't have a wits plus occult pool they can't use counter Magic if you have occult knowledge at all you can counter magic.

Yet again I'm not saying they're perfectly defended but how do you stop someone from self-terminating? This is an Earnest question because we have shaping defenses so then taking the body is irritating but we can resummon them and then use a question to find out where they took this particular clones body.

I'm of the thought that a self-terminating action takes one round whether that be fishing pills out of a pocket, initiating a self-destruct sequence anything one round because yeah poisons, potions and pills that do lethal levels of damage in two or three rounds exists if you cannot instantly knock a clone unconscious how do you prevent it from killing itself.

Because every single clone can spend willpower to resist most things because they count as us at least on that front. If a clone doesn't believe it can win a fight against any foe and knows it will be returned if it dies.

There the thing because it's world of Darkness healing isn't at all ubiquitous if a clone can deal itself poison or lethal damage within one or two rounds because it doesn't think it can win a fight that's it most people are fucked for actually taking that clone alive.

I think there's exactly one vampiric discipline that allows healing of other people. Another thing your counter magic pool still exists even when you're dying so spending willpower to counter magic people healing you is a thing.

In the end it boils down to the fact I don't think there are any effects that would allow you to completely circumvent the fact of how lethal the world of Darkness actually is in most cases especially to someone who wants to die. As well as the fact I'm not super concerned with them taking dead bodies, actually I'm not sure our clone leave dead bodies but that's a whole nother thing.
 
Duquette7 said:
Baring in mind that I haven't read the last arc yet, and I'm reading through the build arguments as we speak, I think I'll lay this vote down for now, but feel free to lobby me one way or the other.
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Well if you're open to lobbying. Black Mirror Incarnation is another tactical charm. That does not significantly expand Molly's abilities in any way. Because we already have anonymity through propriety (Another stealth charm) and significant tactical options in general ( bring Agents from our world, hirer mercenaries ect) all it does is allow us to hide our Aura for tactical reasons no matter how much someone says it's for diplomacy we should never ever ever do that. Unless we're dealing with fairies things that are compelled to follow their word no matter what everyone else is going to hate that.

While Splintered Gale incarnation even if it requires a bit of investment can immediately start benefiting us alleviating AP cost from school and mundane activities, exploring and taking lessons in our world ( martial arts, sorcery, politics, leadership) the like. Not to mention it outright gives Molly the ability to make clones which is just really cool other than enhanced stealth

in the end it really comes down to what you think is more important increased tactical stealth or AP cost and clones really. But I hope you choose clones.
 
uju32 said:
This has been litigated before, and ruled on by the QM.
BMI hides Molly's doom aura.
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That really does not make since, the Charm is written explicitly so that Vampire Aspuex etc and the other factions super senses powers beat the charm. IE everybody we need to bother hiding ourselves from auto win against the charm.

BoredMan said:
Damn near everyone who brings up the positives of the charm express the desire to deploy clones on Earth and try to account for the risk. So much so that if it came to a vote It's rather clear that's what we'd end up doing with it. We'd never buy the expensive charm then end up only using them in the FiveFold Courts.
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That what I plan to do at least for a while have them get up Fortune path 2 dots so they can death curse if needed. Also learn MA at such full time. So they will power thou the training given a single clone can spend it's full 8 AP which is = to 4 AP of Exalted Molly every month without issues. While Molly prime has to pace it out over 4-6 the clones will go thou the training in basically a single month per MA art, just from greater focus.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
That really does not make since, the Charm is written explicitly so that Vampire Aspuex etc and the other factions super senses powers beat the charm. IE everybody we need to bother hiding ourselves from auto win against the charm.
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Doesn't matter if you think it makes sense or not. DP has already ruled on it more than once when it was brought up.

That's how the Charm works in this quest.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
That really does not make since, the Charm is written explicitly so that Vampire Aspuex etc and the other factions super senses powers beat the charm. IE everybody we need to bother hiding ourselves from auto win against the charm.
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I was like what no it doesn't but then I read the charm why Holden why?
Black Mirror Incarnation (•••••)
The Infernal breathes upon the black mirror of her heart, and becomes someone else.
System: The Infernal spends 1 Essence, spends a moment concentrating, and dons a perfect illusion which causes her to appear to be someone else. This can be either a real person, or a fictitious individual of the Infernal's devising.
This illusion fools all five senses. Deduction may
reveal the Infernal for an impostor, but imperfections in the disguise itself never will. The illusion persists until the Infernal reflexively dismisses it, or until her anima flares.
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It hides who you are perfectly. Then leaves space for someone to deduce that you are you and then goes out of its way to say nothing about any extra sensory Powers whatsoever meaning it hides nothing about what you are at all you might as well be in an umbrood taking a human form for how much it actually disguises what you are. This charm is designed primarily to fuck Mortals and do nothing else.
 
Degorium said:
in the end it really comes down to what you think is more important increased tactical stealth or AP cost and clones really. But I hope you choose clones.
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Clones are nice, there are many instances, and settings were clones are wonderful in fact, I'm not convinced Dresden Files is one of them.

Whenever I think about clones in this quest I cant help but realize that we would be creating Mortal Clones of Molly Carpenter, and then considering all of the unspeakably horrible things that could be done with a reagent of that quality in a ritual magic setting like Dresden Files, and then I start singing the NOPE song in my head.

Now, I am not a big TTRPG buff, so it's entirely possible that there is some aspect of the mechanics involved that mitigates this, I'm in the process of reading the build discussion trying to catch up with that debate at least before the vote closes, but so far I'm not seeing anything like that.
 
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Degorium said:
Well if you're open to lobbying. Black Mirror Incarnation is another tactical charm. That does not significantly expand Molly's abilities in any way. Because we already have anonymity through propriety (Another stealth charm) and significant tactical options in general ( bring Agents from our world, hirer mercenaries ect) all it does is allow us to hide our Aura for tactical reasons no matter how much someone says it's for diplomacy we should never ever ever do that. Unless we're dealing with fairies things that are compelled to follow their word no matter what everyone else is going to hate that.
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ATP works completely differently to BMI, and in every single instance except for those times where we explicitly wish to be effectively invisible, ATP is wholly inferior to BMI.
 
Degorium said:
It hides who you are perfectly. Then leaves space for someone to deduce that you are you and then goes out of its way to say nothing about any extra sensory Powers whatsoever meaning it hides nothing about what you are at all you might as well be in an umbrood taking a human form for how much it actually disguises what you are. This charm is designed primarily to fuck Mortals and do nothing else.
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Infernal Charms are bad compared to other celestial charms, what else is new. Great breath and scope of what a Infernal can do, shit compared to all the celestial exalted.
 
Degorium said:
It fulfills the same purpose in most cases and unless you care about having perfect stealth it's not worth getting Black Mirror incarnation.
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You are being very disingenuous I feel. It has been discussed how having BMI would've helped us avoid conflict in the past during stealth operations that ATP wouldn't have helped us with.

Like when we were ambushed at the airport because we were tracked over several miles. I could go back and pull examples that were given if need be since you seem to be ignoring them.
 
Duquette7 said:
Clones are nice, there are many instances, and settings were clones are wonderful in fact, I'm not convinced Dresden Files is one of them.

Whenever I think about clones in this quest I cant help but realize that we would be creating Mortal Clones of Molly Carpenter, and then considering all of the unspeakably horrible things that could be done with a reagent of that quality in a ritual magic setting like Dresden Files, and then I start singing the NOPE song in my head.

Now, I am not a big TTRPG buff, so it's entirely possible that there is some aspect of the mechanics involved that mitigates this, I'm in the process of reading the build discussion trying to catch up with that debate at least before the vote closes, but so far I'm not seeing anything like that.
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Most affects that would be possible using clones we can immediately bounce off using our perfect defenses which are these.

Whenever the universe dares to mar the Infernal's immaculate and ideal self, she may exert her will to reset herself to her default state of perfection.
System: Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the hostile magic before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene. Alternately, the Infernal can spend 1 Essence to radically accelerate her healing for 24 hours. So long as she takes no strenuous activity, the Infernal heals all bashing damage or one level of lethal damage per 15 minutes of rest. An hour of rest mends one level of aggravated damage.

Just in case In case it just means anyone who attempts to use Magic on us from a distance that attempts to transform or kill us through internal Magic immediately fails on a reflexive roll which means instant and we can do it at any time. Essentially any magic that isn't an attempted definition based effect fails immediately and even some divination effects May Fail if they're teleportation based.
The Infernal refuses, with utter and immovable implacability, to permit any force in the cosmos to gainsay her will.

System: Any attempt to cause or force the Infernal to betray, undermine, or abandon her Intimacies automatically fails. Furthermore, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower to become immune to all thought and emotion-altering magic for the rest of the scene.

Which means any attempt to change our mind using magic immediately failed as well. Which I think covers most effects that could be brought using a clone corpse that aren't divination and we have our own form of divination that allows us to immediately find the Clone course the second we have five essence to make that clone again and find it.
 
BoredMan said:
You are being very disingenuous I feel. It has been discussed how having BMI would've helped us avoid conflict in the past during stealth operations that ATP wouldn't have helped us with.

Like when we were ambushed at the airport because we were tracked over several miles. I could go back and pull examples that were given if need be since you seem to be ignoring them.
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So far the only instance I can think of that ATP doesn't work and BMI would was in Vegas. Anonymity through propriety would have worked on those people in that airport just fine they had no reason to stop us unless we interacted with them. We have an etiquette Excellency if we had spent one Essence in that scene with ATP we could have walked right past them which considering Black Mirror Incarnation is the same thing, in that sense it's literally just as effective.
 
Duquette7 said:
I'm in the process of reading the build discussion trying to catch up with that debate
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I would heavily advise you to do so. At this point any argument given to you directly has already been brought up and responded to in prior pages. Better to read those and get full context on every angle presented rather than get a misconstrued perspective in service of an agenda.
 
Degorium said:
Which I think covers most effects that could be brought using a clone corpse that aren't divination and we have our own form of divination that allows us to immediately find the Clone course the second we have five essence to make that clone again and find it.
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Yep, that sounds nice, really great for Molly, on a personal basis, but what about using the corpse as a conceptual link to her family? Or as a conceptual link to our inner world? Or Exaltations in general? Or our minions? Our Wonders? The mortal territory claimed by Maggy Carpenter, and that's just off the top of my head and 3 minutes of thought, I'm sure there are more.

Ritual Magic is tricky like that, and Dresden Files magic is very free form. Does Exalted Bull #@%& trump Dresden Files magic on contested effects? Yep! But Dresden Files magic has a hell of a lot of angles to work with, and there are few more potent conceptual links then the mortal form, living or dead, of the subject of interest.

Edit: As I said previously, It's entierly possible that I'm blowing the threat out of proportion, but I'm half way through the arguments at this point and so far I've yet to see one that answers my concerns. The closest has been just keeping the clones confined to the inner world, and using them for skill training, but even that is a risk, and I don't think the value we get in that instance is worth the cost of the charm at base, let alone the opportunity cost of the xp, plus danger calc.
 
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Degorium said:
So far the only instance I can think of that ATP doesn't work and BMI would was in Vegas. Anonymity through propriety would have worked on those people in that airport just fine they had no reason to stop us unless we interacted with them. We have an etiquette Excellency if we had spent one Essence in that scene with ATP we could have walked right past them which considering Black Mirror Incarnation is the same thing, in that sense it's literally just as effective.
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So there that's one possible use that would've made it worth it. We could've used it to take Sandra out before she even knew we were in town.

Even in the scenario your presenting just using BMI would allow us to save a mote and if we had used it before- not get ambushed to begin with. They thought we were a big bad and a threat to everyone on the plane, if we had used ATP to up and vanish Reds may have been alerted by the resulting commotion warning Arianna and ruining our own ambush.
 
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