The clones are you enough that you cannot use VEE on them, but Lash can buff them as she could any mortal. This does allow you to make multiple pacts with her if you like since every clone has her own store of Faith that she can use.
Yes there is one large faith reservoir, but it is enough to be expressed through however many Spinters you can spin at any one time. If you could manifest all the faith of the growing greater self... Lash would not be able to hold that.
It is extremely rare that I agree with uju, but on this one, I am with him, if we can create defenses for protecting our friends from a repeat of Broken seeker (and I don't see why we wouldn't do it), then we can create some ways to defend our clones from kidnappings too.
Not to mention that we can still let our clones stay in our world, a thing that has been pointed out several times.
Yes there is one large faith reservoir, but it is enough to be expressed through however many Spinters you can spin at any one time. If you could manifest all the faith of the growing greater self... Lash would not be able to hold that.
Okay, then this leads to the next questions. What other forces are also work on Molly's clones that are not her own charms(sorc path obviously work on clones)? And also what is the faith potential of her clones?
Okay, then this leads to the next questions. What other forces are also work on Molly's clones that are not her own charms(sorc path obviously work on clones)? And also what is the faith potential of her clones?
Anything that would work on a normal human would work on them. They would have a Faith score of 3. SGI is very good at hiding the alien parts under the hood.
The clones are you enough that you cannot use VEE on them, but Lash can buff them as she could any mortal. This does allow you to make multiple pacts with her if you like since every clone has her own store of Faith that she can use.
That sounds like a spectacularly bad idea. We should do it.
More seriously, how would that even work? If we absorbed and respawned them, would they still each have just their own Pact? (Even if the Pact was for dots in a Knowledge? That would be a horrible waste, of course, but is technically a viable use of faith potential.)
Edit: By which I mean that knowledge is one thing we explicitly do share, so how would that work mechanically?
That sounds like a spectacularly bad idea. We should do it.
More seriously, how would that even work? If we absorbed and respawned them, would they still each have just their own Pact? (Even if the Pact was for dots in a Knowledge? That would be a horrible waste, of course, but is technically a viable use of faith potential.)
Edit: By which I mean that knowledge is one thing we explicitly do share, so how would that work mechanically?
So I asked my demon expert friend and maybe we can find a way to stop the attempts to get into the brains of the clones. I or anyone else can say more only by taking out the book of infernalism and looking there for demonic gifts. As for the possession of clones, as I understand it, there is a problem with the fact that a pact with a demon is a partial possession according to Devil Due
So I asked my demon expert friend and maybe we can find a way to stop the attempts to get into the brains of the clones. I or anyone else can say more only by taking out the book of infernalism and looking there for demonic gifts. As for the possession of clones, as I understand it, there is a problem with the fact that a pact with a demon is a partial possession according to Devil Due
The problem is not the mechanisms of possession which are well known IC, it's the mechanisms of SGI which is a potential soul-organ of the Infernal Exalted on which Molly is the greatest living expert as far as she can tell.
The problem is not the mechanisms of possession which are well known IC, it's the mechanisms of SGI which is a potential soul-organ of the Infernal Exalted on which Molly is the greatest living expert as far as she can tell.
On fomor creation, in ExWoD, or precisely WoD, there are ways of influencing what powers a fomor has when you intentionally make them, as you can choose which Bane to summon to possess someone, and you can also learn how the moral/psychological flaws of the person along with the nature of the ritual you use.
Infernals don't have that option. They can't summon a particular flavour of Bane (well, they could presumably learn the relevant Dark Sorcery paths and rituals to do so) and so choose the rough template of the type of Fomor that is produced.
The fact that mortal sorcery can do something does not mean that an Infernal charm can do the same thing. There are Exalted charms that allow giving a target arbitrary fomor powers. Abyssals have one. Infernals don't, and that's deliberate.
Now, IDU is even more different. From what we're told it doesn't create a fomor here, it awakens a person's P'o so that they can use Demon Chi and learn Wan Kuei Demon Arts like a cut down Dhampyr. I don't think we know they can manifest regular fomor powers as well.
And that's fine, Demon Arts can be pretty useful, and it would be non-duplicative with the fomor creation magic from our hell, or with other fomor creation powers, and so possibly stackable.
The problem is that we have no way of knowing before spending the XP whether the charm is fantastic or a giant liability. I think it still has uses with the clones restricted to our soul world (if nothing else, as a defense against our death), but not necessarily enough to make it a priority purchase.
The problem is that we have no way of knowing before spending the XP whether the charm is fantastic or a giant liability. I think it still has uses with the clones restricted to our soul world (if nothing else, as a defense against our death), but not necessarily enough to make it a priority purchase.
I am, which I mention in that post. I was bringing it up here because @uju32 does, and trying to advance both these arguments at once makes very little sense to me.
It seems self evident that we're an ally against world ending bullshit, though more details would probably be appreciated. Business seems like a more interesting starting point, and there's plenty of value to go around.
Really should have done a write in earlier, cause I think it'd be interesting to use this opportunity to make a point on our motivations. Specifically on the broader "fuck everything about how the supernatural treats mortals" one.
[X] As a willing ally against foes who threaten all, like those who caused the recent incident -[X] Use the crown on the record of the call to see who Von Trier's first contact experience is with
The slow beat of the music muffled by ornamental stone and very much intentional sound proofing, the red of the tablecloth, the way the light dances in the decanter, the rustling of the curtains turning the uncommon evening wind into a strange and furtive thing, this is altogether not the kind of place one might expect high stakes diplomacy to take place, unless it be the kind of diplomacy that ends with one of the parties lying face down on the table. But the Hanging Gardens is where the new Lord of Las Vegas had chosen to meet with his guests, partly as a show of favor to Arlene who has emerged as one of his strongest supporters and partly because she is the only one of the local players to offer. Fortunato was 'still setting the big top back up' whatever that meant and Big Corey had declined to have federal agents, no matter how well behaved in any of his establishments.
Which is how you and Tiffany end up to one side of a table laden with so many bottles and decanters of colorful dizzying liquids that you could probably get a horse drunk alongside a gurvel who could probably drink all of it and not feel a thing. Alright that is a bit unfair of you. Flame of Exemplary Passage and his subordinates are too busy marveling at the construction, the lights, the power outlets and the chairs to pay much attention to the drink. They might all be diplomats, but what exposure they had to Earth had been third hand through Iris files, a far cry from breathing the air of an alien world.
So it is with some relief that you recognize Agent Hyde again, accompanied by another three of his colleagues similarly attired and while not unphased certainly less phased than usual. You offer a smile and a shrug. What can you do? the expression seems to say.
***
Fight and bleed and try not to die, these are the answers that come out in the hour long presentation that takes up your side of the introductions. Rather than the wide holistic approach that your negotiators had taken in dealing with the White Council, meant to assuage any fears that you were hiding some dark secret, this is designed specifically to deal with the crises Las Vegas, why you meddled, how you are planning to comport yourself in the future and why the important person to talk to isn't you. A chance for the Lord of the March to come into his own.
To your surprise Harromont's account of the events of last Sunday is direct and without any of the artifice he used for instance when talking to Correy. While he certainly did not minimize his own contribution or those of other local actors like the Temple of Ishtar, the Pallbearers or the wyldfae he makes it very clear that absent external intervention none of the local powers could have stopped the gate opening on its own after its appointed guardian had been turned. "The landmine might not have run down to the second but on the scale that such powers contend that might as well have done so. This city finds itself at a crossroad, at a meeting of strangers who like travelers of old met at sunset and then spent the night fighting back to back against brigands and beasts. We do not have the luxury of parting for all the world is here and here we must stand. I am willing, nay eager to share information about threats with those who would help to counter them."
Like the proverbial coin slotting in place those are the words Hyde seemed to be waiting for. The Library has procedures for sharing information at various levels of classification. They had even had a hand in the modern classification system if they are to be believed, but metaphorical coins aside there is one sticking point, money, specifically what Harromont is planning to run his operations on. The agents make it very clear that they cannot accept any form of wide scale tax evasion be it by means mundane or arcane, an odd line it seems to you at first though the more you think about it the more sense it starts to make.
Odds are good there are plenty of people in government who are aware that the Library of Congress is not entirely forthcoming with their information, even Daedalus suspects that and yet the librarians are tolerated, respected even, to think back to that phone call from the reservoir. If on the other hand they were suspected to be doing nothing more than enriching their cronies that trust is liable to shatter, the pieces hard indeed to fit back into place.
So t he pledge is made, the parchment —Harrowmont insisted— signed and the Treaty of Las Vegas comes into effect.
"I hope everyone has the sense not to upset the ass as it's learning the way," Tiffany whispers as things break up.
"Hey!" you shoot back, no sense name calling. Personally you think the Lord of Las Vegas has proven himself brave in conflict and skilled in peace.
"I meant the animal, old Assyrian proverb," she counters with an expression like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth.
With that at least you leave the city and your memories of Sandra fey behind. Though as you race across the desert you have the strangest feeling that eyes of stone are tracking you. Something tells you not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas
Arc Eleven Complete
Triumphs
Forged your first Splendor 1 XP
Investigation of Nemesis 1 XP
Learned of the Starborn and their place in elder ages 2 XP
Gained the respect of the Archive/the Seer/Ivy 2 XP
Traveled to the land of Avalon, the heart of the Summer Court 1 XP
Met in Peace with both of the Queens of the Fey 1 XP
Navigated the intrigues of the Summer under delicate circumstances 1 XP
Tiffany forged a pact with one of the Exalted 2 XP
Gained a measure of respect from Titania 1 XP
Heard the Song of Talhaearn and understood it 1 XP
Slew Iku Turso in open combat 3 XP
Exorcised Nemesis from the lords of the fey 1 XP
No one in Avalon was harmed save your enemies 1 XP
Unraveled the New York City Nemesis plot 1 XP
Managed to save Katherine 2 XP
Struck a bargain for visitation with the Shih 1 XP
Were there for Rosie at the birth 2 XP
Found the seediest dive in town and recruited the bouncer 1 XP
Discovered an elder vampire's plot 1 XP
Bargained safely with a spirit of drowning 1 XP
Exfiltrated a vampire out of a hostile underwater sanctum without doing any damage 2 XP
RPG Ambush dealt with safely and without undue attention 1 XP
Broke Little Tommy's enthrallment 1 XP
Killed and consumed the vampire 'Nathanael Cobler' 2 XP
Discovered the the Sun Red Contingency and tracked down its pair 2 XP
Got the locals to cooperate 1 XP
Unraveled Sandra's plots at the university 1 XP
Dealt with the chemical attack at the Xanadu with no victims 2 XP
Contacted and recruited Red Court Vampires despite previous animosity 1 XP
Shattered the Chaos ritual 3 XP
Traversed the Tunnels 1 XP
Destroyed the Posessed Vampire Orpheus 2 XP
Slew the Dragon 3 XP
Captured Sandra 3 XP
Dealt with the lesser Outsiders 2 XP
Set up the New Lord of the March 2 XP
Eliminated the Red Court presence in Las Vegas 1 XP
Revealed yourself to a portion of the US Gouvernment and signed a treaty with them 2 XP
Total XP: 2 (Unspent) + 58 (Earned this Arc) = 60
How do you spend your Experience?
Special [] Alchemy: The Art of transmutation, not merely of matter, but mind and spirit. To all you have learned from Bob, all you have read in Harry's books the insights of an elder age are added, as steel is alloyed from charcoal and iron (Cost 3XP/Dot)
[] The Sight, birthright and peril for all who are born with a wizard's depth of understanding (Cost 13 XP Discounted by 2) Mus study with Harry before you can make use of it
[] New Ability 3xp
[] Ancient sorcery spell 10xp
[] Attribute current rating *4xp
[] Ability current rating *2xp
[] Caste Ability current rating *1xp
[] Caste or Favored Charm Charm rating *3xp
[] Other Charm Charm rating *4xp
[] Willpower current rating
[] First dot of a Sorcerer Path 4xp
[] Follow-up dots in a Sorcerer Path current rating *3xp
[]Merit current rating *4xp
[] Remove Touch of Frost (2 XP)
[] Buy down Nightmares (4 XP)
[] Write in
OOC: And we are done. Congratulations for making it through the mega-arc guys. Enjoy your XP.
You dont.
Just model them as base Molly with a fomori template stapled on it.
We are going to be reabsorbing them often enough to not really matter. And individual progression is too fiddly to bother with.
So is min-maxed super fomor. I need to dig up the quote, but the intended use for those charms is to make circus rejects as lackeys and colorful minions - not werewolf equivalent super bruisers.
Burner phone doesn't do anything unless we're available to strike and can get to where they are immediately. Say if they got attacked while we were doing something else, or just at an inconvenient spot. Remember that one time it took us an hour to get back to Chicago, even knowing we were on a lethally serious time table?
As to that charm; only works on liquid poisons. Pills and various inhaled substances are fair game. So is magic.
I opened that example by hitting her with a car for a reason. At those speeds death is unlikely, but serious injury isn't. I'd like to see the melee check for fighting with a broken spine, hip, or collar bone. While facing multi-attacker penalties, because the clones are not exalts.
Maybe you can squeeze that much juice out of a fomor by exploiting all of white wolf's worst decision making, but if you make a fomor that can handle what Molly did on our first encounter with the Gorfel you've gone too far.
The intended use is something like those berserkers at best.
Burner phone works fine in Chicago, precisely because we've been moving people into the place.
Six months ago, it would have been a bad idea. In 9 months, Id be comfortable for normal day to day work.
Short of heavy hitters showing up, and thats basically Plot.
All poisons are liquid poisons.
They have to dissolve to have any effect on your biology.
Magic is fair, but fomor have access to Gifts to mitigate.
I've been hit with an accelerating car as an adult. Hit and run at sub-50 mph; the driver was accelerating out of a restaurant parking lot at night. I walked away from it without a scratch. One of my siblings has done much the same thing, though they were a kid at the time. Neither of us are 5-dot badasses in anything, we just happened to fall properly.
I dont agree with that argument. Not in a world where Abyssals are allowed to make custom Risen for 5 Essence, and Solars get to make Mages. And the assortment of fomor breeds I pointed out makes it clear that fomor are supposed to do everything from battle to seduction; the swiss-army knives of minions.
And yes, fomarchs and ferectoi ARE supposed to be able to 1v1 at least young werewolves. Thats the design intent.
Werewolves just happen to fight in packs, unlike fomarchs and ferectoi.
Chicago isn't safe enough in my book, but if you'd read my posts you'd notice that I wasn't arguing against getting the charm at all, but with the idea of leaving multiple clones in the wind on earth.
I'm not sure how you're squaring your prior argument about archmage field agents and nemesis failing to credibly threaten this. I don't agree with that position either, but I think we'd both accept the point that dramatically less force than that is needed to make this work. I'm pretty confident any reasonable fomor design can be beaten by surprise using cheap muscle, but either way this would obviously be a priority for nemesis.
It's simply too valuable, and too good a bit of narrative reversal, for it to do anything else.
Kinda surprised that you, the information security guy, are so blithely sanguine about leaving a copy of everything Molly knows behind the equivalent of a restroom stall privacy lock. I mean really, cell phone and some enhancements will make it work? What was your position on telling Murphy anything about anything again?
My primary thinking at the moment is to have one in stasis in Sanctuary, a second active in Sanctuary as Molly's regent, and 1-2 in Chicago.
Because fomor get access to werewolf Gifts, which alleviates my concerns about the information security vulnerabilities of putting a Molly clone out there. Couple that with learning Path Sorcery Fortune 1: Death Curse, and handling a Molly clone becomes the equivalent of juggling a live grenade.
This question illustrates why the charms aren't meant to produce any arbitrary fomor build the players can concoct.
My read is low to mid tier minions with a few good tricks. Read the way @uju32 is any we get an arbitrary number of fomarchs.
I do not agree.
You dont spend 4 dots and 3m per person for the same; if that was all intended, it would just use the Spawning Pit Infliction charm, which mass produces randos for free.
More broadly.
Making minions is a cooperative process with the QM, and the power levels are in part narratively driven, and in part determined by the mechanics.
Making a clone of an Infernal Exalt into a bakemono? One of 4-5?
Fomarch, easily, and left to me it would probably go along the themes of the charms available to the Exalt.
As other people have mentioned, IDU doesn't do that. The only mortal-buffing charms that we get which allow us to control their builds are the training charms like Chirality Prohibition Index, which would be useless for the clones (since it caps at our own stats, which they already have).
Edit: I wonder if our clones are sufficiently not-us to be valid VEE targets. Almost certainly not, but it could be interesting.
One Hundred Devil Disciples is a training charm that also turns you into a bakemono, and its right there in the book.
Just for comparison, this is the Abyssal equivalent of IDU, only it targets ghosts and costs 5m instead of 3m:
Atrocity Chariot Preparation (•••••)
Standing above a corpse, the Abyssal weaves a potent contract out of blasphemies dredged from the depths of the Labyrinth. Should the body's former owner agree to the Exalt's terms, the magic of the contract reunites flesh and ephemera, creating one of the Risen.
System: The Exalt must first contrive to bring a ghost to the location of her body, and then conduct whatever negotiations she sees fit for the use of this Charm. In essence, the wraith is allowed to bypass the normal requirements for becoming Risen (see Wr20 pp. 387-391), making the necessary Pact with the Abyssal rather than her Shadow (she waives the customary price of a point of permanent Willpower, as well). If the wraith fails to uphold her end of the bargain, rather than gaining a permanent point of Angst, she is ejected from her cadaver and back into the Underworld.
Once the bargain is struck, the Abyssal spends 1 Willpower to summon an appropriate contract, and then 5 Es- sence to sanctify it and to bind the ghost to her old body.
Look up Risen.
They have Obfuscate, Potence, Fortitude and Celerity, 10HLs instead of 7, no vulnerability to sunlight, no wound penalties unless dealt with Agg, and their own unique Arcanoi. Im none too familiar with Wraith The Oblivion, but
There's an additional charm that makes 15th generation Caitiffs, but that requires that you take the Apocalyptic Form of the charm to make lower-generation Caitiffs.
Or get your hands on a Splendor/appropriate magic item to buff the effects.
The main point here is that "Nemesis and / or other outsiders can instantly take over anyone, with just a briefest of contacts" breaks the setting. Just as a simple example, Leanansidhe would never have been able to surrender herself to Mab after being subtly infected if this was so. At least she would have been forced to commit suicide to deprive Mab of an agent.
The evidence we have for such instant takeovers is very few, and can be explained by exigent circumstances.
Thats for the QM to decide how it affects the story they want to tell.
Its entirely within their rights and arguably responsibility to nerf it if they think its necessary.
I am just going: This is what is canon for the series. The QM can work from there.
That is fair I added 1 more XP for chasing those vampires out, there weren't a lot of them, but you did get rid of them entirely which should be worth something