Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

We see their works in canon.
The Solar Deliberative do nothing on that tier despite thousands of years and effectively unlimited resources and the cooperation of Yu-Shan. Surpassing Primordials is not why they were created.
Well that's not really true and I don't approve of what they were going to do but the cauldronist could do that. A mixture of Shinmaic Calibration, Shinmaic Communion and Wyld-Shaping Technique. Would have essentially allowed the solar deliberative to completely remake creation as they saw fit in infinite distances with it as long as they're willing to commit to doing it and considering they were so bored at that point they probably would have been committed for a long time.

Why they didn't just build a prototype out in the wyld I don't know but they could have done it everything about the artifice technique and charms of the people involved said they could have done it but because creation is everyone's home the cauldronist never get their due.
 
The Solars had much the same thing in their retinue.

IIRC, part of the resentment of the DBs were all the Golden Children and constructs and the like that the Solars(and to a lesser extent, the Lunars) kept making. There was a massive genocide of entire populations during and after the Usurpation that created entire massive shadowlands that still exist as of the Second Age.

Eh... I would not really compare the Golden Children with the kinds of things that ended up as Forbidden Gods. Even the dregs that managed to hide away after the war would eat Solar half-castes for breakfast and that is without getting into the whole Incarna who ended up being lobotomized.
 
Eh... I would not really compare the Golden Children with the kinds of things that ended up as Forbidden Gods. Even the dregs that managed to hide away after the war would eat Solar half-castes for breakfast and that is without getting into the whole Incarna who ended up being lobotomized.
To be fair, Golden Children had the ability to most solar charms expect perfects. And a few others. But yeah that is true for the Forbidden Gods.
 
Alchemicals can get on celestial tier but it all depends on the load out for their charms. As unlike everyone one else, they have a very different way of doing them. They are also kind second to only Infernals on scale due to the fact they become cities.
As I understood it, celestial tier exaltation wasn't just a matter of power. It's also a matter of soul structure / weight /whatever. For example, alchemicals cannot learn sidereal martial arts.
We don't actually need that much baseline here. The point of getting the prodigy down to 3 with flaws is that it doesn't need a dead monster or anything of that power to work. A vial of vampire blood or some magic mushrooms are perfectly valid reagents.
I'll point out that Peach Tree of Immortality is a 3 dot splendor, no flaws required. It's surprisingly cheap to turn people immortal and supernaturally healthy.
1)There were only allegedly twenty-something Primordials to be overthrown in the Primordial War, and it required the entire Exalted Host plus allies in a war of unknown length to overthrow them.

If you are making the claim of high-Essence Celestials being Primordial-tier, you have to square that with the idea that being ambushed at a dinner was enough to kill the majority of the Solar Host, which had multiple elder Exalts in their number.
Chejop Kejak was a young dude during the Usurpation.
How many servitor races, demons, etc were on solars' side during the usurpation?
Alchemicals are explicitly Celestial-tier in the lore.
Citation needed, please. I'll have to look it up myself, but from what I recall, alchemicals are explicitly not anywhere close to celestial tier metaphysically speaking. Their exaltations can be destroyed (and are, with the death of each exalted). They cannot learn sidereal martial arts. Etc.
The Solar Deliberative do nothing on that tier
Salinan working.
 
As I understood it, celestial tier exaltation wasn't just a matter of power. It's also a matter of soul structure / weight /whatever. For example, alchemicals cannot learn sidereal martial arts.
Lunar can't either so I have no idea why SMA is coming up. Also no, alchemicals exaltations can't be destroyed. Your thinking of souls gems which aren't exaltations.
 
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Err....who was Katherine? I forgot.
She's the person that Michael, Lydia, Lash and Harry went to investigate in NYC.
The senior surviving child of the Changeling family that got attacked in the Pacific Northwest a decade or so ago, and then Michael handed her and her brother off to Nfested Lady Ellamore.

I think they are like third, due to Jade Born. Which have some of the most broken ass crafting charms.
I would probably disagree.
But doing the math requires more effort than I can spare right now.

How many servitor races, demons, etc were on solars' side during the usurpation?
At least two that survived the war: The Jadeborn and the Dragon Kings.
We KNOW that major elementals of Autobot were on the field as well; Slacstag is explicitly called out as a Primordial War veteran.

Citation needed, please. I'll have to look it up myself, but from what I recall, alchemicals are explicitly not anywhere close to celestial tier metaphysically speaking. Their exaltations can be destroyed (and are, with the death of each exalted). They cannot learn sidereal martial arts. Etc.
I have errands to run, and am nowhere near my books. So I'll have to come back to this.

Alchemicals cant do SMAs, but neither can Lunars.
They CAN do God-Machine Protocols by E4/E5, which are essentially an Adamant Circle Sorcery variant. Their dice pools in their area of specialty are beyond anything short of a Solar specialist.

Is not a Primordial-tier effect that Im aware of.
They changed the settings on Creation, which was built by the Primordials; they didnt do something new.
 
Lunar can't either so I have no idea why SMA is coming up. Also no, alchemicals exaltations can't be destroyed. Your thinking of souls gems which aren't exaltations.
Alchemical exaltations like those of the dragons are of the body and are destroyed with said body whether that be through degradation or deliberate destruction. The nature of the Soul being changed in celestial exultation is what he's getting at I don't know where he's getting SMA from but I understood what he meant.
Is not a Primordial-tier effect that Im aware of.
They changed the settings on Creation, which was built by the Primordials; they didnt do something new.
It's a primordial effect the only thing the primordials ever did that had the same reach as the Salinan working was the imposition of linear time.
 
Alchemical exaltations like those of the dragons are of the body and are destroyed with said body whether that be through degradation or deliberate destruction. The nature of the Soul being changed in celestial exultation is what he's getting.
That would be kind odd then, given the whole thing of void tainted charms and other stuff that really fucks them up.
 
TERMINOLOGY OF EXALTATION
First Age savants recognized two degrees of Exaltation: Celestial and Terrestrial. Celestial Exaltation, of
course, referred to the power infusing the Chosen of the mighty Incarnae. In practice, more attention tended to be
accorded to the enormous personal power of the Celestial Exalted and the way their Exaltation passed on to new
bearers through a process similar to reincarnation. In the Second Age, savants whose scholarship remains untainted
by Immaculate doctrine are presented with a classification conundrum by the advent of the Abyssal and Infernal
Exalted. Those Exalts' power does not entirely derive from the Incarnae, but they possess all other characteristics
of Celestial Exaltation. For now, that is how they have been categorized.
Despite their aspect diversity and separate patronage, the Dragon-Blooded have always been categorized as a
single variety of Terrestrial Exalted. In the First Age, as with Celestials, savants tended to focus on the character-
istics of this form of Exaltation rather than on the Dragons after whom they had been named. In the Second Age,
this trend has reversed itself.
Moreover, while both varieties of Chosen are Exalted, only Celestials have what the God of Exaltation,
Lytek (see The Compass of Celestial Directions, Vol. III—Yu-Shan, pp. 143-145), refers to as "an Exaltation."
(Scholars of Exaltation have suggested several pieces of clarifying terminology over the centuries to refer to the
element of the Celestial Exalted that carries their power from hero to hero, including "heavenly shard," "spark of
divinity" and "transmigratory Essence." Yet, Lytek's Division of Exaltation has refused all of these appellations on
the grounds of inaccuracy and lack of proper grandeur, and Heavenly paperwork continues to recognize only the
term "Exaltation.")
Alchemicals do not fit into either model. They are, properly speaking, Primordial Exalted—but they do not
function in the same manner as the appropriated Exalts of the Neverborn or the Yozis, or the Chosen of Gaia's
draconic souls. They possess a physical Exaltation, like the Dragon-Blooded, but with no capacity to pass their
power on to another bearer either through death or reproduction. In the end, should they ever integrate themselves
into Creation, their raw power will classify them as Celestial Exalts. Yet, this is unlikely to stop Lytek and his rival
Parad, the God of Inherited Might (see The Compass of Celestial Directions, Vol. III—Yu-Shan, pp. 148–149),
from coming to open conflict over the matter of how to classify their unique industrial Exaltation.
I admit I was wrong.
Also no, alchemicals exaltations can't be destroyed. Your thinking of souls gems which aren't exaltations.
If I understand correctly, alchemical exaltations are physical things, and can be destroyed, and don't survive the death of their bearer.
 
I admit I was wrong.

If I understand correctly, alchemical exaltations are physical things, and can be destroyed, and don't survive the death of their bearer.
Ehhh that is not quite the case, alchemical bodies are noted to still exist after their soul gem is taken out. And able to be salvaged from.
 
Ehhh that is not quite the case, alchemical bodies are noted to still exist after their soul gem is taken out. And able to be salvaged from.
But at that point it's a mass of magical materials rather than an exalt. A alchemicals body without the soul gem which ignites the spark of exultation in the body is not exalted it's just an automaton made of a magical material and after that particular soul is gone that body needs to be remade so it can be sparked with another heroic soul by a demiurge.
 
Expect that isn't how alchemicals work. Due to the fact those aren't magical materials, most of what is salvaged is the charms themselves.
Okay this is what makes alchemicals so expensive. You are correct in that the charms are salvaged. They do need to be refitted to a new chassis and that new chassis until it receives a soul that can ignite the exaltation within it is not an exalt those charms will not work for anyone who is not an exalt who specifically has those charms refitted for their chassis. Also I am fairly certain Alchemical charms are still made of magical materials themselves.
 
Also when they become cities they are kind monster from what we know. Infernals don't need heretical charms. But they also lose their Exaltation s they become a new copy of a Yozi that exist.
True, although I see "become Malfeas" as a little better than death for the Exalt in question. Though there is space to argue, given how even at low essence, it is possible to redefine Primordials through charm-making...

Oh well. Anyway -

....the narrative of Solaroid Exalts as Primordial+ is pretty consistent through 2E. You can primarily see the mechanical implementation of that narrative through Infernal charms - which are just primordial charms. An Infernal has access to, iirc, 6? 7? Primordial charmsets, but Solars are still mostly superior in terms of "bang for their buck" XP/charm efficiency before Devil Tiger stuff! Even while mixing charms for maximum efficiency and cross-charmset synergies!

You do run into some worldbuilding issues later - Wonders of the Lost Age the "What can Elder Solars Do?" book is generally considered to be pretty low-quality, even if it got a lot of really cool titbits people decided to use anyway - but I'd have to get really in-depth with a lot of stuff here to talk about those issues properly, which really clashes with the "drive-by loredump of relevant information, no getting involved into multi-hours arguments about stuff I am just not that heavily invested into" intent.
 
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Well. NWS is whatever the target sees as their greatest shame right? I think she's already subconsciously aware that her brother was a Wee Folk she smashed. If she were truly in denial, I'd think it'd show one or the other depending on if she's solely digusted in herself for the murder-torture or ashamed for not protecting her brother.
 
Well. NWS is whatever the target sees as their greatest shame right? I think she's already subconsciously aware that her brother was a Wee Folk she smashed. If she were truly in denial, I'd think it'd show one or the other depending on if she's solely digusted in herself for the murder-torture or ashamed for not protecting her brother.

She has to consider the part she knows about as a sin yes, but Molly rolled more than 5 successes which is the cut off point for 'knowing more about the sin than the target in ways that make it even worse for them.'
 
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] Spend WP for additional success
 
Really I have no idea how to even write peak empathy Excellency in this situation. If I did I would add a stunt.
 
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] Spend WP for additional success
 
I'll point out that Peach Tree of Immortality is a 3 dot splendor, no flaws required. It's surprisingly cheap to turn people immortal and supernaturally healthy.
I think we're talking past each other here.

Splendors don't have a flaw buy down mechanic like prodigies do. I was suggesting making a prodigy so that we could make something very effective and powerful, but not absolutely in the way Splendors are, as a cheaper way to hide it.

A memory hole veil like Harry or that necromancer with Holt have taken to 11 isn't impossible to defeat, but it is pretty hard to bypass for most people and would (if approved) draw from a much more easily accessible reagent pool.

If I'm reading it right a Red Cross donation worth of blood from our former ducal body guard whamp would do it. That or maybe buy some ghost dust from Harry.
 
Exalted at E5 = E10 Primordial's. Reminder that Autobot designed the Exalted to do everything they where made for IE killing Primordials by E5 the even Autobot explicitly not knowing how the exalted would develop in the 6+ range.

Exalted did develop life extension charms, after the first of them died to old age, and the work well enough that nobody else is known to have died of old age. And Exalted even found a way to mess with the exalted target selection something Autobot designed to be impossible. And yet high essence exalted could rig their exaltation, to only target their own soul and carry their memories forward to their next life.
 
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Exalted at E5 = E10 Primordial's. Reminder that Autobot only designed the Exalted to do everything they where made for IE killing Primordials by E5 the even Autobot explicitly not knowing how the exalted would develop in the 6+ range.

Exalted did develop life extension charms, after the first of them died to old age, and the work well enough that nobody else is known to have died of old age. And Exalted even found a way to mess with the exalted target selection something Autobot designed to be impossible. And yet high essence exalted could rig their exaltation, to only target their own soul and carry their memories forward to their next life.
You do remember that the E5 exalted host won by right of respawn right? They had enough juice to fight gods and primordials when numbers were on their side, but the plan all along was to go through a lot of heroes.

If the exalted could individually match the primordials that early in their career then they wouldn't have made 700 of them, their Lunar mates, the Sidereals, and whole armies of dragon bloods.
 
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