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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Okay I've been thinking of the exalted in their place in the setting.
Spoilered for length

Creation as it was, was a place built from a ground up to be a permanent base of operations for non-human entities that inherently lived on their own narrative uncoupled from the wyld and creation with only Autocthon requiring material input do to his thematics of refinement and non-spontaneous creation.

This is where my thought process and I think Earth destroyer's thought process differs from uju32. A significant thing that drew me to exalted as a setting was that the only reward for enlightenment is strength.

The primordials were vast multi-soul leveled God monsters. They weren't special they were just strong. All of their Creations can be modified messed with and destroyed. All of their powers and abilities replicated or defied. In truth what drew me to this was The Narrative of being the first or being the largest doesn't make you good it just makes you first.

This understanding of the exalted setting is at least in my mind what made exaltation a miracle. A concept forged by one of the primordials. That is inherently uplifting so cannot be reduced only changed, a soul or a body made to guide and provide shape to enlightenment.

That is why I say that the exalted individual and plural are greater than the primordials capable of undoing or recreating or changing their works or making things better or grander. It may take a thousand lifetimes but they can give themselves the time. Even the primordials didn't get Creation right on the first try.

There are gameplay and thematic restrictions on things in exalted but that is exactly what they are storytelling limits. There is nothing stopping a group of exactly one solar and any combination of Exalted from walking from creation and making their own with its own unique laws metaphysical and physical. Because Creation is just the first and the largest.

Inherently I view the exalted as capable of anything the primordials were and more simply because they are not affixed to the positions of the primordials while possessed of the same power. It may take the exalted longer to do the things the primordials did. It may be smaller than what the primordials did but they are fully capable of anything the primordials were and of many things they just weren't capable of.
 
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[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
 
Oof.
Both the lady and Michael are going to be devastated.
Murks74 said:
Hell no that's just needlessly cruel, unless there is an important benefit to her knowing.
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She was considered useful enough for a convoluted Nemesis conspiracy to kill off her family and recruit her.
Nemesis isnt going to simply forget she exists.

If she doesnt know, Nemesis or one of its agents is going to arrange to tell her.
And thats not including the legal consequences; there's a non-zero chance that Nfested!Ellamore kept some blackmail evidence as a backup that has to be dealt with.

Better a managed disclosure under controlled circumstances than to let a hostile force manage the occasion and circumstances of any reveal.
 
Wow that last post took me a long time to put in the words Uju32 really got stuck in my head with saying the exalted had hard limits on capability that isn't story based ( time travel Resurrection) when that's never shown nor is it particularly given in the setting it's weird. Anyway

[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
-[X] Use empathy Excellency to sooth her conscience or guilt over the act as well as pin the truth of Nemesis as the ultimate being responsible for the act.
 
VOTE
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family


Molly already has an Empathy Excellency running.

This is why high-Willpower, high-Perception, high Awarenesss/Alertness is important for Exalts and other supernaturals.
After this, Molly is going to want to go home, hug her mother and her siblings.
And probably double down on the Bridge of Dreams training.

I suspect that its going to have other, narrative effects; its an especial kind of horror for an elder sibling, or a parent.

Degorium said:
Inherently I view the exalted as capable of anything the primordials were and more simply because they are not affixed to the positions of the primordials while possessed of the same power.
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Point of correction:
They do NOT have the same power. Autochtonia has multiple E8/E9 Matropoli and Patropoli around who are thousands of years old, the Lunars still have some First Age Elders running around, and Chejop Kejak is an Elder Sidereal.

And the Solar Deliberative pre-Usurpation had lots of elder Solars running around.
Most Celestial Exalt types arent even immortal, and thats basic god shit; they figured out life extension, but they will still die of natural causes. You cant be immortal in Exalted Second Edition and remain a Solaroid or Lunar.

The idea that Solar or Celestial Exalts are supposed to be Primordial-equivalent is not Usurpation-OK anyway.
 
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[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
 
uju32 said:
VOTE


Point of correction:
They do NOT have the same power. Autochtonia has multiple E8/E9 Matropoli and Patropoli around who are thousands of years old, the Lunars still have some First Age Elders running around, and Chejop Kejak is an Elder Sidereal.

And the Solar Deliberative pre-Usurpation had lots of elder Solars running around.
Most Celestial Exalt types arent even immortal, and thats basic god shit; they figured out life extension, but they will still die of natural causes. You cant be immortal in Exalted Second Edition and remain a Solaroid or Lunar.

The idea that Solar or Celestial Exalts are supposed to be Primordial-equivalent is not Usurpation-OK anyway.
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Going in reverse order usurpation okay is a meme especially in that context because them being on the level of primordials in that context is fine because they're against creation killing kick Chejop and at least a dozen stronger Sidereals. In all seriousness though the usurpation was mostly an an assassination. Also I didn't mean direct combat strength of the primordials either, though if they really focused on it I have no doubt they can match it.

The celestial exalted have 3,000 to 5,000 year lifespans that can arbitrarily be extended through their own actions if that's not considerably more immortal than most deities I don't know what is unless you mean unkillable. Wait a second brainwave the infernals and the abyssals and the sidereals if they decide not to die are immortal because I know Rakan Thulio hasn't aged a day since he turned down Saturn's sign and he is from the first age. Also the lunars arbitrarily control their bodies so they don't actually age either. The solars have to choose to let their bodies go for them to age as well(Not developing charms) .

By same power I meant essence the capability and strength of enlightenment. The ability to create and make things in your own image by your own understanding of the quintessential nature of things. In the spoiler part I mention that it may take them longer it may not be as grandiose at least at the start but I fully believe and there's nothing in the material that discourages me from believing it that anything the primordials can do the exalted can do.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Ask her for nuclear weapons, she actually has a reason to possess the designs for those.

Celestial Martial arts died several iterations of reality ago.

A better place to start would be the FCF style.



The relic thing was mostly a knight mission, Micheal just had us tag along.

good investment certainly is a term for it. Since they spoke last Molly has:

- Grown into a hell world
- Killed a vampire duchess
- Invented a new type of potentially incarnae tier demon that required an entirely new word in enochian to describe what you need to do to a fallen angel to get one
- Made the Summer Lady immune to iron, possession, and mind magic in exchange for lore on a curse comet
- Exorcised nemesis from three major fey no one knew were infected until we volunteered the information
- Paid a child to chain down bits of nemesis's soul so we could chew on them properly
- Eaten a lesser walker of the outside
- Eaten a Finish god-monster in front of a live audience on the shores of Avalon*


Which is certainly something. Personally I'm interested in how he plans to raise any concerns about Molly's dietary habits.

A proper favor isn't too much to ask. I was hoping for something like a way to undo the damage accumulated practicing their arts, but splendors aren't amazing at that.

Invincible assertion is also an issue, because it'd only cover a subsection of Qiao.


* We should really say something to the council, because this is less hot gossip and more the mushroom cloud of a story that went off on just this side of the horizon.
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I mean in regards to celestial martial arts we don't know how many iterations since they existed and things could have survived from the previous iteration. Also there are probably places and things with memories of such things. Also also we know for a fact exalted lore exists in the hells.
 
Degorium said:
Going in reverse order usurpation okay is a meme especially in that context because them being on the level of primordials in that context is fine because they're against creation killing kick Chejop and at least a dozen stronger Sidereals. In all seriousness though the usurpation was mostly an an assassination. Also I didn't mean direct combat strength of the primordials either, though if they really focused on it I have no doubt they can match it.

The celestial exalted have 3,000 to 5,000 year lifespans that can arbitrarily be extended through their own actions if that's not considerably more immortal than most deities I don't know what is unless you mean unkillable. Wait a second brainwave the infernals and the abyssals and the sidereals if they decide not to die are immortal because I know Rakan Thulio hasn't aged a day since he turned down Saturn's sign and he is from the first age. Also the lunars arbitrarily control their bodies so they don't actually age either. The solars have to choose to let their bodies go for them to age as well(Not developing charms) .

By same power I meant essence the capability and strength of enlightenment. The ability to create and make things in your own image by your own understanding of the quintessential nature of things. In the spoiler part I mention that it may take them longer it may not be as grandiose at least at the start but I fully believe and there's nothing in the material that discourages me from believing it that anything the primordials can do the exalted can do.
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A small note here, the first Solar dying of old age and hence the revelation that they could was what sparked a whole war within the Deliberative as they realized they did not have infinite time to do whatever they liked. If not dying of old age was as simple as 'choosing not to' that would not have happened. Yes there are ways for a Solar to not die at their appointed time, but they have to go out of their way to get them, which is not the case with say Abyssals because the two are conceptually different, one is Human tending to Perfection, the other is the Bodhisattva of Oblivion which may only perish when they do.
 
DragonParadox said:
A small note here, the first Solar dying of old age and hence the revelation that they could was what sparked a whole war within the Deliberative as they realized they did not have infinite time to do whatever they liked. If not dying of old age was as simple as 'choosing not to' that would not have happened. Yes there are ways for a Solar to not die at their appointed time, but they have to go out of their way to get them, which is not the case with say Abyssals because the two are conceptually different, one is Human tending to Perfection, the other is the Bodhisattva of Oblivion which may only perish when they do.
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The First Solar that dies of old age dies at roughly 3000 years old. The charm that allows solars to extend their life is an Essence 8 resistance 8 charm if I'm remembering right. Only a fraction of a fraction could ever have that charm but once it was discovered that might change the calculus on how long they live but that charm only gets discovered after that first guy dies and that initial Panic sets in. That's what fuels the discovery and creation of anti-aging cordials and other analgesics like it.

That's not to discredit or say your point is wrong Uju32 said they weren't capable of immortality and I knew there was a charm that literally could arbitrarily increase the lifespan of a Solar and a lot of the celestial exalted just have bodies or Natures that are inherently immortal.
 
[] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family

Murks74 said:
Hell no that's just needlessly cruel, unless there is an important benefit to her knowing.
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They are using the fate of her brother to secure her loyalty, to make her hate who they want. If we want to turn her, then we first need to reverse that motivation back towards Outsiders.
 
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Iron Roby said:
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family


They are using the fate of her brother to secure her loyalty, to make her hate who they want. If we want to turn her, then we first need to reverse that motivation back towards Outsiders.
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Its a Nephandi cult initiation.

You remember how RL criminal gangs might have you commit a serious crime like rape or murder, or how Gorfels had his mooks do vile shit before he put a spirit of rage in them? Same thing. Thats how Nephandi cults work in World of Darkness too, iirc.
Lure you in step by step, from torture enhanced interrrogation to manslaughter to torture-murder to murder-sacrifice.

Ten to one they would tell her at some point of no return that she already killed her brother, to tip her over the edge and bind her to their purposes.
 
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] Spend WP for additional success

uju32 said:
And the Solar Deliberative pre-Usurpation had lots of elder Solars running around.
Most Celestial Exalt types arent even immortal, and thats basic god shit; they figured out life extension, but they will still die of natural causes. You cant be immortal in Exalted Second Edition and remain a Solaroid or Lunar.

The idea that Solar or Celestial Exalts are supposed to be Primordial-equivalent is not Usurpation-OK anyway.
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And yet by E7 charms, the flavor text and rules consistently feature stuff like 'it's a duty of a child to surpass the father" when talking about Sol Invictus, redefine reality on a global scale, etc. Celestial exalts have a potential to surpass primoardials. All celestial exalts. Not just Infernals. Though, perhaps, not Alchemicals (where does the idea that they are celestial tier come from? As far I remember, they are very much not up to par with celestials)

As to not being immortal... That one is easy - they have the themes of death baked in, deliberately so, so they can kill immortals (that's my speculation).
 
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] Spend WP for additional success
 
[X] Explain to Katherine that she had been manipulated to kill her only remaining family
-[X] Empathy excellency
-[X] Spend WP for additional success
 
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Molly: "So, on the count of three, I want everyone who didn't accidentally torture their brother to death to raise their right hand."

"...one..."

"...two..."

"...thr-, wait, not so fast Katherine!"
 
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Yog said:
Alchemicals (where does the idea that they are celestial tier come from? As far I remember, they are very much not up to par with celestials)
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Alchemicals can get on celestial tier but it all depends on the load out for their charms. As unlike everyone one else, they have a very different way of doing them. They are also kind second to only Infernals on scale due to the fact they become cities.
 
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