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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Artemis1992 said:
Appeasing the Fey is still a thing and they most certainly can and do influence the weather.
Mab being angry caused a snowstotm some chapters ago.

Even if for some reason the WG shut down all other gods, he did not shut down other supernatural beings.
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The fey courts as a whole and in their strongest members do yes, but Leansidhe and Mab aren't bargaining with random farmers.

They do have humans at the poles who've made deals which could reasonably include weather services, but they're a special case.

In DF canon the white god did explicitly show up and somehow retire every god on the planet, with the exception of ones that were actually him by another name, and he doesn't answer prayers that obviously. Not in a fight and conquer sense, but just suddenly "I'm the sheriff in these here parts".

They were also not that common on the first place anyway. It wasn't like everyone who sent a prayer got a blessing or something.

Butcher pays lip service to the multiple divinities conceit popular in urban fantasy, but he's about as subtle as CS Lewis was with his religious allegory in making specifically Catholic God the real one.
 
[X] Reveal the plot, the way Nemesis killed her parents to make her a pawn in its plots
-[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on her to tailor the approach
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Dec 17, 2023 at 10:02 AM, finished with 14 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Reveal the plot, the way Nemesis killed her parents to make her a pawn in its plots
    [X] Reveal the plot, the way Nemesis killed her parents to make her a pawn in its plots
    -[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on her to tailor the approach
    [X] Humanely euthanize the nascent threat to humanity.
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[X] Reveal the plot, the way Nemesis killed her parents to make her a pawn in its plots
-[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on her to tailor the approach
 
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Magic and the Mundane Part II
  • Informational
    • Magic and the Mundane Part II​

    As you guys have been getting more into the details of how people would interact with magic on an institutional level questions have popped up, everything from meteorology not being as reliable as it should be to mass casualty events when some power slips up, or just does not care about holding up the veil. Well the answer to that is that this is not actually our world if faeries were suddenly real, this is a world in which faeries have always been real and yet most people do not want to look at the truth in the face, because the truth is terrifying. This is to some extent the world in which a lot of conspiracy theorists think they live. People in government and in academia, doctors and scientists etc... really are hiding the truth, but so are the people at the local Denny's when a vampire throws someone through a wall. It takes more proof to get someone to believe, to admit to the truth and people rationalize a lot more than they do in our world. The average person in Molly's world has seen something they can't explain, which means that so has the average government employee and the average politician.

    Most will be content to let sleeping dogs lie and only some, only rarely will pick up a file and thing 'I should look into this' or conversely 'I can use this'. So what follows logically from this? The world is less democratic and less populist, those things are not the same, but they are related when it comes to keeping the secrets of the Masquerade. Does that mean that every conspiracy is true? Was Kennedy assassinated because he was about the spill the beans about wizards? Not necessarily. Most of the people who would be a serious threat to the conspiracy of silence here are killed long before they are one televised address, one radio interview from blowing the whole thing wide open because the monsters and the magicians have ways of finding out for which there are no mundane counters and most of the times they do not even kill the Waldo Butters of the world, they discredit them, they push them towards a life of conspiratorial gloom.

    Are you a meteorologist who spotted one too many things and have this theory about how some outside force is affecting the weather and messing with models? Well you are about to get a slick partner with silver eyes who will either discredit you or convince you to write about how it's aliens. Are you a reporter who happened to find some communiques that claims werewolves are real and the British government did some unethical tests on them in WWII? Congratulations on your new life touring trashy daytime talk shows. It's not because the talk-show hosts are all in on it either, this is just how their particular ecosystem developed. The Midwestern Arcane, Susan's old paper is not special, it is part of a whole protective layer that keeps the masquerade in place. The people in that layer often knows there is something deeper down without knowing what, the editors, the CEOs etc... just know that if you dig into the wrong thing you might end up like Tommy, the cops found him in sixteen pieces with no blood on the floor.

    This is not our world, but with wizards, this is our world with multiple interlocking conspiracies over a spiritual and arcane reality that most of people do not want to face.

    OOC: So there have been a lot of posts about this recently and rather than reply to them independently I thought it might be worth addressing in an informational post
     
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  • Informational
    • [X] Reveal the plot, the way Nemesis killed her parents to make her a pawn in its plots
    -[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on her to tailor the approach

    See exalted bullshit -> google exalted bullshit ->vaguely assume the effect I'm reading about will be useful -> vote for exalted bullshit
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Magic and the Mundane Part II​

    As you guys have been getting more into the details of how people would interact with magic on an institutional level questions have popped up, everything from meteorology not being as reliable as it should be to mass casualty events when some power slips up, or just does not care about holding up the veil. Well the answer to that is that this is not actually our world if faeries were suddenly real, this is a world in which faeries have always been real and yet most people do not want to look at the truth in the face, because the truth is terrifying. This is to some extent the world in which a lot of conspiracy theorists think they live. People in government and in academia, doctors and scientists etc... really are hiding the truth, but so are the people at the local Denny's when a vampire throws someone through a wall. It takes more proof to get someone to believe, to admit to the truth and people rationalize a lot more than they do in our world. The average person in Molly's world has seen something they can't explain, which means that so has the average government employee and the average politician.

    Most will be content to let sleeping dogs like and only some, only rarely will pick up a file and thing 'I should look into this' or conversely 'I can use this'. So what follows from this logically from this? The world is less democratic and less populist, those things are not the same, but they are related when it comes to keeping the secrets of the Masquerade. Does that mean that every conspiracy is true? Was Kenedy assassinated because he was about the spill the beans about wizards? Not necessarily. Most of the people who would be a serious threat to the conspiracy of silence here are killed long before they are one televised address, one radio interview from blowing the whole thing wide open because the monsters and the magicians have ways of finding out for which there are no mundane counters and most of the times they do not even kill the Waldo Butters of the world, they discredit them, they push them towards a life of conspiratorial gloom.

    Are you a meteorologist who spotted one too many things and have this theory about how some outside force is affecting the weather and messing with models? Well you are about to get a slick partner with silver eyes who will either discredit you or convince you to write about how it's aliens. Are you a reporter who happened to find some communiques that claims werewolves are real and the British government did some unethical tests on them in WWII? Congratulations on your new life touring trashy daytime talk shows. It's not because the talk-show hosts are all in on it either, this is just how their particular ecosystem developed. The Midwestern Arcane, Susan's old paper is not special, it is part of a whole protective layer that keeps the masquerade in place. The people in that layer often knows there is something deeper down without knowing what, the editors, the CEOs etc... just know that if you dig into the wrong thing you might end up like Tommy, the cops found him in sixteen pieces with no blood on the floor.

    This is not our world, but with wizards, this is our world with multiple interlocking conspiracies over a spiritual and arcane reality that most of people do not want to face.

    OOC: So there have been a lot of posts about this recently and rather than reply to them independently I thought it might be worth addressing in an informational post
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    So basically it's a Chronicles of Darkness type Masquerade?
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    The fey courts as a whole and in their strongest members do yes, but Leansidhe and Mab aren't bargaining with random farmers.

    They do have humans at the poles who've made deals which could reasonably include weather services, but they're a special case.

    In DF canon the white god did explicitly show up and somehow retire every god on the planet, with the exception of ones that were actually him by another name, and he doesn't answer prayers that obviously. Not in a fight and conquer sense, but just suddenly "I'm the sheriff in these here parts".

    They were also not that common on the first place anyway. It wasn't like everyone who sent a prayer got a blessing or something.

    Butcher pays lip service to the multiple divinities conceit popular in urban fantasy, but he's about as subtle as CS Lewis was with his religious allegory in making specifically Catholic God the real one.
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    Ehhh the White God is clearly not just a catholic thing nor are all the tenants of Catholicism true in this universe or anything. Even the way God or angels appear can change based off on how people see them even if their underlying nature doesn't according to Butcher.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    I don't know much about CoD, but I do know it has less in the way of all knowing elders pulling the strings and more in the way or organic and smaller scale institutions than WoD, that mortals matter so I am going to say tentatively yes
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    Basically, one of the chargen questions to determine a breaking point for a mortal character is to talk about a supernatural experience a character saw and forgot about because it's near impossible to grow up in the setting without at least one supernatural encounter(Chronicles Core Rules Page 30)

    Then you've got a bit on page 14 you can find in the DTRPG preview that' s basically exactly this bit of what you said.
    Well the answer to that is that this is not actually our world if faeries were suddenly real, this is a world in which faeries have always been real and yet most people do not want to look at the truth in the face, because the truth is terrifying. This is to some extent the world in which a lot of conspiracy theorists think they live. People in government and in academia, doctors and scientists etc... really are hiding the truth, but so are the people at the local Denny's when a vampire throws someone through a wall. It takes more proof to get someone to believe, to admit to the truth and people rationalize a lot more than they do in our world. The average person in Molly's world has seen something they can't explain, which means that so has the average government employee and the average politician.

    Most will be content to let sleeping dogs like and only some, only rarely will pick up a file and thing 'I should look into this' or conversely 'I can use this'. So what follows from this logically from this? The world is less democratic and less populist, those things are not the same, but they are related when it comes to keeping the secrets of the Masquerade.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...


    As for the rest when it comes to CofD, a lot depends on which game line or combination of game lines you're treating as canon. Like if you're playing Mage the Awakening it's reasonable to treat at least Werewolf the Forsaken, Changeling the Lost, and Geist the Sin Eaters as canon, I've heard Demon the Descent and Promethean the Created play poorly with other gamelines, etc, playing Hunter the Vigil using other gamelines interpretations of supernaturals as opposed to knockoffs is Hard Mode.

    List of official lines for reference(There's also blue core books that aren't really intended for any specific line of supernaturals that have various bits, I excluded one line because the fandom prefers to memory hole it/pretend it doesn't exist for various reasons. )

    Vampire the Requiem
    Werewolf the Forsaken
    Mage the Awakening
    Changeling the Lost
    Geist the Sin Eaters
    Hunter the Vigil
    Mummy the Curse
    Demon the Descent
    Deviant the Renegades
    Promethean the Created
     
    Given we've seen far more christian stuff when looking at the White God of course but saying their just a christian thing is incorrect based on what's been shown and told by Butcher. Not to mention plenty of Christian tenants are just straight up wrong in the dresden files.
     
    OctarineShrike said:
    Basically, one of the chargen questions to determine a breaking point for a mortal character is to talk about a supernatural experience a character saw and forgot about because it's near impossible to grow up in the setting without at least one supernatural encounter(Chronicles Core Rules Page 30)

    Then you've got a bit on page 14 you can find in the DTRPG preview that' s basically exactly this bit of what you said.



    As for the rest when it comes to CofD, a lot depends on which game line or combination of game lines you're treating as canon. Like if you're playing Mage the Awakening it's reasonable to treat at least Werewolf the Forsaken, Changeling the Lost, and Geist the Sin Eaters as canon, I've heard Demon the Descent and Promethean the Created play poorly with other gamelines, etc, playing Hunter the Vigil using other gamelines interpretations of supernaturals as opposed to knockoffs is Hard Mode.

    List of official lines for reference(There's also blue core books that aren't really intended for any specific line of supernaturals that have various bits, I excluded one line because the fandom prefers to memory hole it/pretend it doesn't exist for various reasons. )

    Vampire the Requiem
    Werewolf the Forsaken
    Mage the Awakening
    Changeling the Lost
    Geist the Sin Eaters
    Hunter the Vigil
    Mummy the Curse
    Demon the Descent
    Deviant the Renegades
    Promethean the Created
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    Yeah, that sounds about right. Dresden does not think much of it, but that is because Dresden is a wizard's wizard, he is not very in touch with the man on the street and even his casual friends are all people with willpower 5 and up. He knows people willfully disregard things, but he thinks they do it more for convenience than terror.

    Aria the Mage said:
    My reaction to that is that that's horrifying, so… success?"
    @DragonParadox Props for making it so horribly plausible
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    Er... thank you. I've never been congratulated on making something terrifying, but it was meant to be scary so I'll take it.
     
    BronzeTongue said:
    The fey courts as a whole and in their strongest members do yes, but Leansidhe and Mab aren't bargaining with random farmers.

    They do have humans at the poles who've made deals which could reasonably include weather services, but they're a special case.

    In DF canon the white god did explicitly show up and somehow retire every god on the planet, with the exception of ones that were actually him by another name, and he doesn't answer prayers that obviously. Not in a fight and conquer sense, but just suddenly "I'm the sheriff in these here parts".

    They were also not that common on the first place anyway. It wasn't like everyone who sent a prayer got a blessing or something.

    Butcher pays lip service to the multiple divinities conceit popular in urban fantasy, but he's about as subtle as CS Lewis was with his religious allegory in making specifically Catholic God the real one.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Also less relevant but figures like Mab and Leanensidhe have actually canonically interacted with relatively unimportant people throughout history. Like painters, composers, or just random people they come across. The latter interacted with bards, poets, and painters who sook her out for inspiration often ended bad for them of course. Given its not something they do regularly of course just you know across the centuries and such.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Yeah, that sounds about right. Dresden does not think much of it, but that is because Dresden is a wizard's wizard, he is not very in touch with the man on the street and even his casual friends are all people with willpower 5 and up. He knows people willfully disregard things, but he thinks they do it more for convenience than terror.



    Er... thank you. I've never been congratulated on making something terrifying, but it was meant to be scary so I'll take it.
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    Speaking of supernatural stuff happening to basically everyone is the short story that molly made a diary on weaknesses and stuff as a kid about gribblies only children can remember canon to this quest?
     
    So it's like every supernatural being has a low power AIP. Because that's the culture.
     
    fictionfan said:
    Anonymity Through Propriety

    Thought it was in.
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    Also given the masquerade is far more light than in world of darkness. Almost no factions will just kill a normie just for knowing about the supernatural. Its more a general convenience thing on all sides thats been encouraged throughout the centuries by pretty much all groups for various reasons.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Are you a meteorologist who spotted one too many things and have this theory about how some outside force is affecting the weather and messing with models? Well you are about to get a slick partner with silver eyes who will either discredit you or convince you to write about how it's aliens.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    To come back to this simple example, that doesn't really make sense.

    There have always been external forces acting on the weather, during the entire history of mankind in which our understanding of meteorology has developed.

    Since the first tribal elders have started to guess if this will be a mild winter or a hard one.
    And the answer has always been that, besides what we would call mundane influences, the relative strength of Summer and Winter fighting and plotting against each other also plays into the answer to this question.

    The thing in this world is not that supernatural forces are affecting established and studied patters, but that these patterns have never been what we would call normal.
    Sure, spontaneous changes would still be noticeable as weird, like a god or wizard or greater Fey altering the weather locally, but the big changes are the new normal.

    And I don't expect you to think up a world in which that has always been the case, because that goes far beyond the scope of this quest.
    For example the little ice age in the 13th/14th Century. Would that have happened if Mab still kept the seat of the Lady of Winter free at that time, deliberately weakening Winter for her daughter's sake?
    Wouldn't a warm-time have made more sense in the context of that?
    I wouldn't even want to try to trace all the changes this would have caused, that would be a work for ages, I just want to explain why I think that a masquerade, voluntary and organic or not, does not mean the world should be as ours but with supernaturals in it.
     
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