Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- Crossover Fantasy
True.
It does make sense that in his job, you would look for someone with certain advantages
But he's been in it long enough that they might not be necessary.
Anyway, so I dont forget like I did yesterday:
[X]Yog
I'm just going to note here. One does not preclude the other, just because the souls reincarnate does not mean that every soul is part of every cycle, just that the people born when the stars are right get a soul which some kind of lingering power over Outsiders.
Speaking of using the scene of you meeting Ivvy to ask what she knows, I am going to restate something I said way back in the quest, that would basically be taking information from the information vortex that is the Mantle of Archive. She of all people might notice.
Ok, true, and fair, but when I hear destinies and starborn, I tend to think sidereals (incidentally, they are also called starborn in their book)
Either knowledge of Starborn, or knowledge of Exaltations, yes, we should obtain that. I default to the knowledge of exaltations, but knowledge of starborn would be valuable too. Unless we can just get her to tell us what she knows.
Not sure if this is about twilights (always possible), or if it's just about ancient sorcery. I mean, the value of souls capable of learning and using Calling the Calibration Gate is tremendous to Outsiders, since CCG can reach into Outside. The gate and the key indeed. I could see Molly's Exaltation have been Salina's - the free will theme definitely fits well.
Oh, I realize that. But so far we know that in this AU:
1) To be a starborn is to have a soul dating to the Ages before Outsiders were Outsiders
2) That Dresden (we asked about Dresden's magic, not starborn magic in general) has been initiated into Sorcery in one of his past lives. The answer we got was formulated to imply that it's a property of starborn in general, not just Dresden, but we can't be sure of that.
3) That starborn are connected in some way to Salinan working, or at least DuMorne thought so. The simplest explanation is that they are the souls with access to Ancient sorcery.
It's possible that you don't need to be a wizard in the modern sense to wield ancient sorcery. We know that Exalts can use Ancient Sorcery yet be unable to use hedge magic, since mechanically that's a separate merit. It's possible that similar mechanical separation applies to other splats too.
That's a good idea. Nitpick: it's Arkhangelsk. I realize that Dresden Files spells it differently for some reason (in before it's a literal Archangel for some reason)
Ok. Yeah, that's an issue. What about asking about what the creators of Archive knew? Lash implied that Archive was created by Starborn, and while it's two steps removed (scene - archive - its creators) everyone involved is potent enough for it to work, I think.
Same issue, the Archive is where the information would be pulled from.
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for them existing across multiple timelines no that wasn't the question hes made clear that odin for example while they can exist across other timelines they are all different odins. He made it clear while what they appear as can change the outsiders are always the outsiders. (Heck there's another wog from jim about this when asking about God that belief of gods does not change them like the White God but that way they appear does change) The question they directly asked butcher was along the lines if they were like angels or if they are different across timelines. He said no the outsiders are always the outsiders.
As for power in canon we've been told a human could ward an angel inside a circle. We've been told the eye of balor would actually work on one even if its not realistic. We've been told figures like mab can destroy a planet and yeah not comparable to even the least but the mothers are far closer according to him at least when it comes to scale and their mere existence on earth can destabilize it.
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Not the minds of long-dead wizards? Did they download themselves into Archive via some sort of Darkhallow-like ritual?
Very well, we'll settle for the list of all hostile plans targeting the Archive right now.
Fair enough.
Oh sure.
She's personally puissant enough that its a potential risk; someone potent enough that it took the entire Order of Denarians plus Lucifer slipping in some aid under the table to subdue is definitely in that tier.
But Im pointing out now, because using a recording of the scene is also an option.
Its something you might want to take into consideration.
Outsiders can be summoned with mortal magic just fine, as the Reds have demonstrated.
If you look at the attack on Demonreach in Cold Days, there were hundreds of Outsiders involved, in addition a greater Walker and a lot of mortal troops on rented boats taking part in that amphibious invasion.
1)QM clarifies that might or might not be true about all Starborn just above this post of yours.
2) I cant see a quote that says Dresden was initiated into Ancient Sorcery.
Can you point me at it?
3)Insufficient data.
4)Doubt that very much. Molly might not be able to use wizardry, but she can handle the energies involved.
It costs Molly a significant chunk of her Essence pool to cast Ancient Sorcery
I dont see how a non-magic user can cast Ancient Sorcery without some way of manipulating the energy involved.
The Outsiders are the Outsiders = No problem.
My point is that, just like there are different Mabs and different Odins from timeline to timeline, there is no indication that, say He Who Walks Behind is the same person across timelines, even though he has the same goal.
Correction: Early Dresden thought that a circle could hold an angel.
Not quite the same thing. Whether that was hyperbole or inexperience, Im not sure. He's met angels now.
I dont believe he thinks the same thing any more.
And the Eye of Balor was stated to be able to kill an angel that let it do so; did nothing to prevent it.
Alternative question: Complete list of the previous Archives.
Then you use their graves as foci.
We need to learn Divination.
It would make things a lot easier if we could use mortal Divination Path as an initial Google search for foci, and only afterwards use the Crown to nail things down.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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I didn't even think that the crown pulled information from anything in universe. We are asking the storyteller. But Ivy likely knows about our crown already we have written a few lists in response to questions which would allow her to figure out that we must have some overpowered divination using her own overpowered divination.
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Individual relatively low level outsiders can be summoned. A full gate allows (I assume, as an apocalyptic scenario) anything that physically fits through to pass from Outside into Reality without restriction. Potentially including Old Ones themselves.
Here:
I underlined the important parts. We asked how Dresden's magic was different from that of other wizards. We got the verse about initiating into Sorcery, with the description of five trials.
This one is easy enough, and is canonic - Prayer Eating. Rituals with multiple participants focused on the person using Ancient Sorcery. Unenlightened mortals are capable of generating essence. Also, not all energy manipulation is magic, as whampires demonstrate.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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I think I recall at some point in this quest talk about vampires manipulating essanse using blood even though they don't know anything about essanse.
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The question was literally whether they had different iterations or not. He literally said no they are always the outsiders.
He didn't say the same for figures like Odin or Mab because they are explicitly not always the same like the outsiders apparently are.
As for the eye I was using it as an example of something that at least harms them its nothing like a top tier existence of the setting. So I'm unsure why your so close minded about things in canon possibly having something on a similar scale to angels.
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Good night guys, see you tomorrow with Ivy...
To think all this started because you guys wanted to give the Summer Lady a present. That is one very extended Christmas Miracle. Nemesis is not a fan.
To think all this started because you guys wanted to give the Summer Lady a present. That is one very extended Christmas Miracle. Nemesis is not a fan.
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The thing is Sideral aren't like the rest. They are based off Destiny more then anything. Which means it's normal in Maidens hands. So if the Loom exist in some form, could keep following.
Outside of homebrew elements you can't. MF does numeric flexing by RaW, there's nothing to support or suggest other functionality.
The outside is the outside, it has no obligation to fit in those standards. I still maintain that you have to tie yourself in knots to read those quotes that way. It basically spells out that Uriel can't find the thing when it's hiding and that it's a player at his level of the game.
Maybe it can't delete galaxies, but that's because it's a stealth + social build.
We don't see anyone but Harry do that, and it's well established that starborn have special powers over Outsiders.
The only agreement that crosses all of creation is "fuck those guys in particular". There's no indication that they're protected or afforded any sort of rights by anything inside creation.
Not worth it. He can get plenty powerful without it and pursuing that power for its own sake is begging to become the star of a future morality tale.
I think the property is having been present for the exile of the outsiders:
The type of soul doesn't seem as important as having been around to witness that event.
Well, from interaction with Gard we know that fate exists in some perceivable way and we are outside of it, which implies certain mechanical similarities. Based on what Sidereal exaltations are, in a way the Loom should be indestructible:
According to Sidereal lore, the rebellious Incarnae
planned for the aftermath of their victory. They knew
their duties would become more onerous when they re-
placed the Primordials as masters of Creation, and so, the
Incarnae made sure that their Exalted could lift some of
their patrons' divine burdens. Thus, the Unconquered Sun
gave his Chosen not simply strength and tactical cunning,
but also the commanding majesty to rule Creation. Luna
invested her Exalted not simply with shapeshifting and a
love of battle, but with also the desire to defend Creation
from the twisted Wyld, that they might patrol the strange
places of the world.
And then the Five Maidens conferred and called Au-
tochthon, the Great Maker, to the Loom. They plucked up
100 threads, as yet unwoven into the Tapestry: the greatest
fated events of their kind. Twenty epic travels would give
power to the Chosen of Journeys, while 20 epic romances
and revelries became raw materials for the Chosen of Se-
renity. Twenty Creation-shaking battles formed the basis
for the Chosen of Battles; indeed, some in Heaven believe
that not all the Primordials were slain because the fates of
those epic battles were used instead to shape those Exalta-
tions. Twenty Creation-shattering mysteries formed the
template for the Chosen of Secrets, and the Exaltations
of the Chosen of Endings were woven from 20 portentous
deaths and the ends of empires. These threads were not
cut from the Loom, though. They yet exist within it. The
Great Maker worked his art, and the Maidens rewove those
threads into the Loom to endure forever, fl owing in and out
of history, Exalting men and women not because of their
deeds and goals, but because they are destined to Exalt: the
Chosen of Fate.
planned for the aftermath of their victory. They knew
their duties would become more onerous when they re-
placed the Primordials as masters of Creation, and so, the
Incarnae made sure that their Exalted could lift some of
their patrons' divine burdens. Thus, the Unconquered Sun
gave his Chosen not simply strength and tactical cunning,
but also the commanding majesty to rule Creation. Luna
invested her Exalted not simply with shapeshifting and a
love of battle, but with also the desire to defend Creation
from the twisted Wyld, that they might patrol the strange
places of the world.
And then the Five Maidens conferred and called Au-
tochthon, the Great Maker, to the Loom. They plucked up
100 threads, as yet unwoven into the Tapestry: the greatest
fated events of their kind. Twenty epic travels would give
power to the Chosen of Journeys, while 20 epic romances
and revelries became raw materials for the Chosen of Se-
renity. Twenty Creation-shaking battles formed the basis
for the Chosen of Battles; indeed, some in Heaven believe
that not all the Primordials were slain because the fates of
those epic battles were used instead to shape those Exalta-
tions. Twenty Creation-shattering mysteries formed the
template for the Chosen of Secrets, and the Exaltations
of the Chosen of Endings were woven from 20 portentous
deaths and the ends of empires. These threads were not
cut from the Loom, though. They yet exist within it. The
Great Maker worked his art, and the Maidens rewove those
threads into the Loom to endure forever, fl owing in and out
of history, Exalting men and women not because of their
deeds and goals, but because they are destined to Exalt: the
Chosen of Fate.
An alternative reading is that to them the Outsiders aren't, well, Outsiders. They already existed before the Outsiders got exiled, and so have some grandfathered connection / adaptation that's lacking in newer souls. Definitely worth checking at least. We lose nothing, I think, by checking.
Arguable on both accounts. And at least in-character he deserves a choice, I think. It's not really our decision to make.
[X]Yog
The outsiders are explicitly the equals of the forces of hell and of heaven. He Who Walks Behind in the original cosmology is explicitly around the power of Uriel, operating on restrictions similarly to them but in different manners. All according to the WOJ below.
Making it so that, He Who Walks Before, Nemesis and He Who Walks Behind all entities of the same level as Uriel. With the differences being their specializations, personalities and plots. Along with operating at differing restrictions than what angels must deal with and similarly operating in multiple realities such as how Uriel does so.
The outsiders are explicitly the equals of the forces of hell and of heaven. He Who Walks Behind in the original cosmology is explicitly around the power of Uriel, operating on restrictions similarly to them but in different manners. All according to the WOJ below.
Making it so that, He Who Walks Before, Nemesis and He Who Walks Behind all entities of the same level as Uriel. With the differences being their specializations, personalities and plots. Along with operating at differing restrictions than what angels must deal with and similarly operating in multiple realities such as how Uriel does so.
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Our involvement is, and it's unlikely he'd even think of it without our prompting.
And for all you keep saying the danger involved is arguable I haven't seen a particularly convincing one from you on this.
Maybe I'm missing something, but so far I've seen no practical answer to any of the many issues involved here on topics such as abuse of power, conflict of interest, and organizing anything beyond what boils down to waving them off.
You don't have to be a misanthrope to think that empowering random people like this is going to lead to things burning down around them. Dresden getting an exaltation isn't worth the risk of letting more out.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
It is our decision if we want to fuck with the Black Vault instead of leaving well enough alone though.
[X]Yog
A Calibration Gate is personal scale, lasts for a maximum of (Sorcerer's Essence) minutes and is presumably not particularly stealthy to use. And there are alarms for that sort of thing to boot; see when Molly opened a gate to Sanctuary the first time.
Im genuinely not worried about it. There's already a bunch of elder things imprisoned on this side of the Gates.
Thank you for the citation.
But no, I think you are reading too much into that.
Could be wrong, of course.
But I dont see that as referring to the Five Stations of Initiation into Sorcery.
That doesnt carry over lifetimes.
Prayer Eating still requires the ability to sense and manipulate the energies involved.
Exalted require Charms to do so. Gods require specific powers to do so.
A mortal without the ability to handle magic cant tap into any of that power.
Not all energy manipulation is mortal magic.
Its still magic though.
Whampire wizards can explicitly use theirs to power spells.
Same iteration = / = Same person.
As far as I can tell, its not saying that He Who Walks Behind is able to operate across multiple timelines.
I would genuinely love to read the exact quote if you have the time to spare to find it.
Because the power scaling says otherwise.
The Fae are defending the Gates against hostiles who they can roughly match out of their own internal resources.
Previous to the creation of the Queens, they would call on gods like the Norse pantheon as backup.
The power of the Queens and their Courts is supposed to be enough to keep the Outsiders out, and is a reasonable benchmark for how powerful the attacking Outsiders are. Mab unchecked explicitly could dump the world into an ice age and destroy it that way. An angel can explicitly blow up the Sun. Word of Butcher.
If there was an angel-tier entity on the other side of the Gates, just one, he or she would have the power to walk over the outer defenses like an adult through a sandcastle.
Winter wouldnt be able to do shit. The united supernatural community wouldnt be able to do shit.
So either they dont have that power, or the White God and his loyal angels have the power to unilaterally impose limits on them.
The way they unilaterally imposed limits on Hell and the Fallen.
Both answers mean that the Outsiders are distinctly sub-angel in power and capability and authority.
Angels are so appallingly powerful that Butcher characterizes them as being hedged around with restrictions and tiptoeing around Reality because they could break it.
The Outsiders want to destroy reality.
Agree to disagree.
We know nothing about the Outside besides the fact that the Fae can venture out into it with no visible protective gear and fight without issue.
We have no idea what standards its compelled to fit.
No, I disagree. Even in the absence of intellectus, just postcognition and multitasking would have been sufficient for Uriel to keep track of every Nemesis-touched person since the beginning of the issue ; you dont need when you can look into the past of a known victim of Nemesis, backtrack to the point where they were Nfested, and follow everything.
No, it cant.
Mab canonically exorcised Lea of Nemesis infection over several years, and showed no nervousness then, or in this AU.
Neither Kringle nor the Erl King showed any nervousness at going after Sharkface in Cold Days either.
And we have a look at how Dresden describes He Who Walks Before as being, at best, no bigger than Mab.
Just deeper somehow:
A vast sound, like something you'd hear in the deep ocean, moaned through the sky.
"Thrice I command thee!" I shouted, focusing my will, sending it coursing into my voice, which boomed out over the landscape. "Thrice I bid thee! By my name I command thee: Tell me who you are!"
And then an enormous swirling form emerged from the clouds overhead—a face, but only in the broadest, roughest terms, like something a child would make from clay. Lightning burned far back in its eyes, and it spoke in the voice of gale winds.
I AM GATEBREAKER, HARBINGER!
I AM FEARGIVER, HOPESLAYER!
I AM HE-WHO-WALKS-BEFORE!
For a second, I just stood there, staring up at the sky, shocked.
Hell's bells.
It worked.
The thing spoke, and as it did, I knew, I knew what it was, as if I'd been given a snapshot of its core identity, its quintessential self.
For one second, no more than that, I understood it, what it was doing, what it wanted, what it planned and . . .
And then that moment was past, the knowledge vanished the way it had come—except for one thing. Somehow, I'd held on to a few crumbling fragments of insight.
I knew the thing trying to tear my head apart was a Walker. I didn't know much about them except that nobody else knew much about them either, and that they were extremely bad news.
And one of them had tried to kill me when I was sixteen years old. He-Who-Walks-Behind had nearly done it. Except . . . from where I stood now, I wasn't sure he'd really been trying to kill me. He'd been shaping me. I don't know for what, but he'd been trying to provoke me.
And this thing in my head, the thing I'd named Sharkface, was like him, a Walker, a peer. It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn't bigger than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her, like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at its command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension—just plain beyond.
This thing was power from the Outside, and I was a grain of sand to its oncoming tide.
But you know what?
That grain of sand might be the last remnant of what had once been a mountain, but that which it is, it is. The tide comes and the tide goes. Let it hammer the grain of sand as it may. Let lofty mountains fear the slow, constant assault of the waters. Let the valleys shudder at the pitiless advance of ice. Let continents drown beneath the dark and rising tide.
But that grain of sand?
It isn't impressed.
Let the tide roll in. The sand will still be there after it rolls out again.
So I looked up at that face and I laughed. I laughed scorn and defiance at that vast, swirling power, and it didn't just feel good. It felt right.
"Go ahead!" I shouted. "Go ahead and eat me! And then we'll see if you've got the stomach to keep me down!" I lifted my staff and golden white fire began to pour from the carved runes as I gathered power into it. The air grew chill with Winter, and frost formed on the razor-edged blades in my armor. I ground my feet into place, setting them firmly, and the glow of soulfire began to emanate from the cracks in the earth around me. I bared my teeth at the hungry sky, flew the bird at it with my free hand, and screamed, "Bring it on!"
A furious voice filled the air, a sound that shook the earth and sky alike, that made the ground buckle and the swirling clouds recoil.
"Thrice I command thee!" I shouted, focusing my will, sending it coursing into my voice, which boomed out over the landscape. "Thrice I bid thee! By my name I command thee: Tell me who you are!"
And then an enormous swirling form emerged from the clouds overhead—a face, but only in the broadest, roughest terms, like something a child would make from clay. Lightning burned far back in its eyes, and it spoke in the voice of gale winds.
I AM GATEBREAKER, HARBINGER!
I AM FEARGIVER, HOPESLAYER!
I AM HE-WHO-WALKS-BEFORE!
For a second, I just stood there, staring up at the sky, shocked.
Hell's bells.
It worked.
The thing spoke, and as it did, I knew, I knew what it was, as if I'd been given a snapshot of its core identity, its quintessential self.
For one second, no more than that, I understood it, what it was doing, what it wanted, what it planned and . . .
And then that moment was past, the knowledge vanished the way it had come—except for one thing. Somehow, I'd held on to a few crumbling fragments of insight.
I knew the thing trying to tear my head apart was a Walker. I didn't know much about them except that nobody else knew much about them either, and that they were extremely bad news.
And one of them had tried to kill me when I was sixteen years old. He-Who-Walks-Behind had nearly done it. Except . . . from where I stood now, I wasn't sure he'd really been trying to kill me. He'd been shaping me. I don't know for what, but he'd been trying to provoke me.
And this thing in my head, the thing I'd named Sharkface, was like him, a Walker, a peer. It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn't bigger than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her, like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at its command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension—just plain beyond.
This thing was power from the Outside, and I was a grain of sand to its oncoming tide.
But you know what?
That grain of sand might be the last remnant of what had once been a mountain, but that which it is, it is. The tide comes and the tide goes. Let it hammer the grain of sand as it may. Let lofty mountains fear the slow, constant assault of the waters. Let the valleys shudder at the pitiless advance of ice. Let continents drown beneath the dark and rising tide.
But that grain of sand?
It isn't impressed.
Let the tide roll in. The sand will still be there after it rolls out again.
So I looked up at that face and I laughed. I laughed scorn and defiance at that vast, swirling power, and it didn't just feel good. It felt right.
"Go ahead!" I shouted. "Go ahead and eat me! And then we'll see if you've got the stomach to keep me down!" I lifted my staff and golden white fire began to pour from the carved runes as I gathered power into it. The air grew chill with Winter, and frost formed on the razor-edged blades in my armor. I ground my feet into place, setting them firmly, and the glow of soulfire began to emanate from the cracks in the earth around me. I bared my teeth at the hungry sky, flew the bird at it with my free hand, and screamed, "Bring it on!"
A furious voice filled the air, a sound that shook the earth and sky alike, that made the ground buckle and the swirling clouds recoil.
Justin DuMorne summons He Who Walks Behind and sends him after Harry.
We see Madge Shelly summon He Who Walks Behind in Blood Rites, and constrain him until she doesnt fulfill her part of the deal by sacrificing a person by the time limit and he kills her, and walks away into Creation free as a bird.
So no, its not just Starborn.
[X] Harry, he is apparently quite fond of her and he's sure to have some questions given what you learned tonight
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"are the outsiders the same outsiders for every universe or is there a different set of outsiders for every universe?"
Butchers response is I'm pretty sure the outsiders are the outsiders and they can look different but are the same.
As for power I'm fairly sure the outsiders are you know a threat to existence existing it just depends on the outsider and like angels they clearly have rules. As for looking the different across universes that even applies to God according to a separate word of god from Jim. If something can harm them I'm fairly sure other things exist on similar scales to them.
Edit2: As for individuals I have no idea how outsiders rate for all I know when we see invasions from outsiders we might be dealing with like the equivalent of pinkies when it comes to individually named outsiders. Not to even mention the actual outsider gods. Not idea how they scale to angels I just assume some of them do.
Edit3: Also I mean I wasn't saying their equal to God mind you just angels probably and only for certain outsiders I'd assume. Asides we've not seen outsider gods we've seen like middle management at best. I imagine like many things they have limitations though.
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