Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I thought Yog's vote included talking about the Laws of Magic.
But it does?
This is a good point, and actually a good avenue to talk to Rosie about Laws.

[X] White collar crime can often be the prelude to more violent crimes, and he's very likely associated with people that aren't so innocent. That said, some discreet contact would be possible. You have ways of securing phone calls and emails if needed. Take it from there and remember that you both have your own lives
-[X] If he or his boss try to get Rosie into trouble, make sure she tells you. You can protect her, but only if she talks to you.
-[X] Use this opportunity to talk to Rosie about the Laws of Magic, why they are what they are, why they are enforced in the way they are, and what to do not to run afoul of them
--[X] Empathy excellency not to distress Rosie

EDIT: It seems that the tally system is broken. It somehow keeps reading people voting for me by name as having voted for the initial version of my vote, rather than the updated one. I have gone back and edited in talking about the laws of magic into the initial version of my vote. Hopefully it'll work now.
 
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getting USA government to back this up"
I doubt this. They might not come after us for it, because it's not worth the trouble, but it'd sink our relationship with the library and get us labeled supernatural criminal/predator like a generic vamp elder.
Still, either Rosie is actually quite talented, we are a superb teacher, or both. Quite possibly both. I wonder how quickly we could get her to 5 dots if we really tried.
I'm interested in the potential rituals and flexibility of this whole path, and if any of my prior speculation is valid:
It seems reasonable to me that you'd learn how to control your own dreams before those of others, so mid dot effects to do usefully things plausible.

Take memory for example; one of the key functions of sleep relates to encoding things in long term memory. Baseline humans kind of suck at this, but using dream magic to construct something like the classic mind palace trope might help with that.

Then from there building dream constructs to auto search and pattern match could be immensely helpful. Not as an immediate thing, but imagine being able to take one glance through an area you're investigating, then take a nap and allow some dream daemons compare it to perfect copies of everything similar you've ever seen, against algorithms programmed from your memories of forensic analysis techniques, to pull patterns and relevant data for you at speed.

If you take dreams to be somewhere between temporary states of altered cognition and interactions with the spirit world, and dream magic the ability to program them, then there's a lot you could do.

An entire suite of utility tools might be possible, from little things like calculators leveraging the mind's own subconscious physics engine to training dreams to boost learning for other skills. You might even be able to do stuff like build a checksum dream to detect mental alterations, to catch stuff like that time Harry was forced to forget he liked to use fire.

Depending on the exact limits a really good dream sorcerer might be able to create something like a HUD via daydreams.

Stuff to highlight important things like where to stab this obscure monster that you saw in a book once to make it die properly, escape routes glimpsed from building plans, or profiles assembled from background research and past experiences injected into your stream of consciousness as you recognize an important person's face.

If programmable altered states of mind are possible, then translating that to low level skill boosts by way of autocorrect style mental overlays might be available for a really good practitioner.

Going full Jane Bond with super investigative skills would be an interesting build for her, and help make her path relevant to tasks outside of law breaking.
It's honestly shocking how stupid you have to be to mess up with that amount of power, but Mab's singular combat record frankly shattered all my prior expectations.
You're using a single data point from the worst written book in the series, where absolutely everyone is so stupid it's surprising they didn't all die making breakfast the day before the plot kicked off.

We're left with a plot and world building issue as a result. Either that showing was a fluke for a spectacularly stupid reason of some kind, or all prior world building about the political shape of the supernatural and it's general power structure makes no sense.

The supernatural isn't a kind or forgiving world; if the competence level shown there was the end of things Winter should never have been in anything like the position they have been up to this point.

Taking "Winter was secretly a bitch and no one even thought to try anything until we showed up" isn't viable as a solution. It just makes everything even more stupid in a self serving way for the purposes of the quest.
Yes, we can, quite easily so. Pay someone to do this for us, never appearing on the radar of the people we need to convince to stay away.
I'd warn against assuming too much incompetence on anyone's part. We can do a good job covering our own tracks, but not exactly a perfect one and if we hire it out the difficulty to back track things drops to a normal level.

We should probably put ATP higher up our priority list, always on mental defenses aren't terribly common and it'd help with stuff like this. Also with using RVD to teleport without sending up signal flares in the form of dark spirits.
 
You're using a single data point from the worst written book in the series, where absolutely everyone is so stupid it's surprising they didn't all die making breakfast the day before the plot kicked off.

We're left with a plot and world building issue as a result. Either that showing was a fluke for a spectacularly stupid reason of some kind, or all prior world building about the political shape of the supernatural and it's general power structure makes no sense.

The supernatural isn't a kind or forgiving world; if the competence level shown there was the end of things Winter should never have been in anything like the position they have been up to this point.

Taking "Winter was secretly a bitch and no one even thought to try anything until we showed up" isn't viable as a solution. It just makes everything even more stupid in a self serving way for the purposes of the quest.

Unfortunately, said single data point is the only data point we have for Mab's combat prowess, asides from OC WOJ. I do agree that it made absolutely no sense and I sincerely hope isn't canon to this quest, but we simply can't ignore that it's what Jim Butcher wrote. He's the guy who wrote Mab as an incredibly powerful force and the one who wrote her incredibly pitiful performance. I could twist myself into a pretzel trying to justify it as anything other than poor writing, but at the end of the day its still the author's writing. That is how Mab fights, full stop.

Though to be frank, Battle Ground didn't show just Winter as incompetent, it showed everyone as incompetent. Even Ethniu used her power so poorly that the only reason she had a chance was 'cause Mab face-planted in front of her and contributed nothing to the divine cage match. We went from "nobody just punches someone else to win a fight at the highest levels of supernatural power" to "cage match or GTFO, we ain't scrubs here" in terms of worldbuilding, and for all that it was an unfortunate turn of events we cannot deny that I'm not making this up, Jim is.

Hell, even before Battle Ground, the plot holes and worldbuilding issues were piling up, from the Fomor never even being mentioned outside of side stories until they came crashing into the scene as the newest big cheese to the Accords being treated as some sacrosanct millenia-old pact essential for supernatural peace when they in truth are younger than Harry. Battle Ground was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
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Unfortunately, said single data point is the only data point we have for Mab's combat prowess, asides from OC WOJ. I do agree that it made absolutely no sense and I sincerely hope isn't canon to this quest, but we simply can't ignore that it's what Jim Butcher wrote. He's the guy who wrote Mab as an incredibly powerful force and the one who wrote her incredibly pitiful performance. I could twist myself into a pretzel trying to justify it as anything other than poor writing, but at the end of the day its still the author's writing. That is how Mab fights, full stop.

Though to be frank, Battle Ground didn't show just Winter as incompetent, it showed everyone as incompetent. Even Ethniu used her power so poorly that the only reason she had a chance was 'cause Mab face-planted in front of her and contributed nothing to the divine cage match. We went from "nobody just punches someone else to win a fight at the highest levels of supernatural power" to "cage match or GTFO, we ain't scrubs here" in terms of worldbuilding, and for all that it was an unfortunate turn of events we cannot deny that I'm not making this up, Jim is.

Hell, even before Battle Ground, the plot holes and worldbuilding issues were piling up, from the Fomor never even being mentioned outside of side stories until they came crashing into the scene as the newest big cheese to the Accords being treated as some sacrosanct millenia-old pact essential for supernatural peace when they in truth are younger than Harry. Battle Ground was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

It honestly feels like they were ghost written by someone with a quarter of Butcher's experience who'd only read the blurbs for the preceding books.

As to if we can ignore it or not; that depends on context.

In terms of talking about canon it's a problem for the reasons highlighted, but this is fanfiction. Butcher certainly didn't have exalts in the Dresden Files, so it's not even the biggest change.

If your options are the whole setting and everyone in it being too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time and one data point the answer is pretty clear.

No one's interactions with Winter or Mab at any point prior to that one in the series make any sense at all if that shit worked. The Accords, the screwing around to avoid their involvement, the effort spent to weaken and disrupt their operations, none of it.

Butcher got lazy and warf'd them to make his new big bad scary without actually needing to put any work into it.

Edit:

To be more clear about my point here; there is no pure functional canon to appeal to as the unchanged baseline once you start interacting with the setting in detail. You either need to rewrite the rest of the series or recontextualize that fight, trying to maintain both as presented requires fractal stupidity across everyone with agency.
 
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While a lot of the fighting is kind of bad I don't think it's surprising that Mab is actually terrible at fighting. She is a fast talking fae a magic Slinger and a woman from the Middle Ages in this one. when would she have learned to fight when she was the pale sister of King Arthur inclined to Magic in kingdom that hated it or after when she got turned into a explicitly magical being that has literally no need to fight because you can just trick and steal and otherwise Bamboozled idiots to fight for you.
Edit: she's definitely got the social stats for it.
 
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While a lot of the fighting is kind of bad I don't think it's surprising that Mab is actually terrible at fighting. She is a fast talking fae a magic Slinger and a woman from the Middle Ages in this one. when would she have learned to fight when she was the pale sister of King Arthur inclined to Magic in kingdom that hated it or after when she got turned into a explicitly magical being that has literally no need to fight because you can just trick and steal and otherwise Bamboozled idiots to fight for you.
Edit: she's definitely got the social stats for it.
Because her canon role is nuclear deterrent and Butcher has given multiple WoGs stating she could fist fight* most of the other major powers alone and inflict mutual loss. Because she and the fey are the backing behind an agreement that forms the basis of modern supernatural diplomacy, and it mostly works because nobody wants to cross them.

At every turn prior to the last book Winter, and Mab in particular, are treated as major material threats who are kept from fucking you up by the rules.

What you're describing could have made sense, if people didn't spend most of the books they're involved in putting serious effort into decisions predicated on the complete opposite.

* Literally, because WoJ is that she prefers doing her fighting with her bare hands.
 
Mab... has never truly shown that she can fight in the books. Despite all the WOJ and in universe treatment regarding Mab, the only time we've seen her take the field she did so in such an idiotic manner I wouldn't trust her to fight Harry, let alone the Senior Council. They, at least, have been shown to possess an actual brain when it comes to fighting.

All the power in the world means jack shit if you're stupid about it, and frankly Mab's one combat showing has shown that no matter how much power she has (and she didn't exactly show off all that much power either) she cannot be trusted to use it in a way that would help her side, only hinder it.

It's honestly shocking how stupid you have to be to mess up with that amount of power, but Mab's singular combat record frankly shattered all my prior expectations
. We've seen Mab be devious and good at plotting, which frankly tracks with her bluffing to the entire world that she can actually fight worth a damn when in actuality she'll probably trip and knock herself out in an actual fight to the death, which isn't that different from what actually happened in Battle Ground.

Ironically this doesn't even contradict WOJ, who mainly pointed out people with "pure, raw power" or "the necessary horsepower" to beat Mab. So there are only a few people in the world with the same biggatons as Mab, only most have the advantage of a working tactical brain to boot.

My hope is we ignore Battle Ground and headcanon an actually competent Mab, but my point is if we relied solely on canon it would be best if we never set foot on a battlefield on Mab's side.
1) If Mab was shit at fighting, the Outer Gates would have fallen centuries ago.

Furthermore, its worth noting that she walks around without a bodyguard or entourage. In a world where we know(and SHE knows)that there are Walkers that have slipped across the Gates. If she walks around with no close protection, and more importantly the Outsiders dont try a hit anyway, it suggests that her combat ability has been clearly established centuries ago.


2)Ethniu was more powerful than Mab. More powerful than essentially everyone else.

Thats a Word of Butcher statement. Everyone else had taken the White God-sanctioned debuff to stay involved in the mortal world; Ethniu had dodged the bans and patches by pretending to retire her character, then did the equivalent of logging in with old codes to the current version of the server, and the server admin hadnt gotten around to infracting her yet.

Add to that the fact that this entire thing was deliberately timed for midsummer, when Winter would be weakest.


3)Mab's job in BG was, in gaming terms, to focus the enemy tank.
To draw and hold the attention of the enemies big sticks, so everyone else could maneuver in the blindspot that her presence would evoke in the BBEG. She did that.




The Doylist reason, of course, are in part plot contrivance, in part that our PoV character only sees a fraction of what is going on, and in part that Peace Talks/Battlegrounds were written at the tail end of a six year hiatus after Skin Game.
Which was itself 2 years after the previous book.

The author had personal issues in that interregnum, and then when he finally got around to writing PT/BG it ended up being a single huge book that had to be to split it up by the publisher under some time pressure.
The final works are not as..... polished as they could be.
 
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1) If Mab was shit at fighting, the Outer Gates would have fallen centuries ago.

Furthermore, its worth noting that she walks around without a bodyguard or entourage. In a world where we know(and SHE knows)that there are Walkers that have slipped across the Gates. If she walks around with no close protection, and more importantly the Outsiders dont try a hit anyway, it suggests that her combat ability has been clearly established centuries ago.


2)Ethniu was more powerful than Mab. More powerful than essentially everyone else.

Thats a Word of Butcher statement. Everyone else had taken the White God-sanctioned debuff to stay involved in the mortal world; Ethniu had dodged the bans and patches by pretending to retire her character, then did the equivalent of logging in with old codes to the current version of the server, and the server admin hadnt gotten around to infracting her yet.

Add to that the fact that this entire thing was deliberately timed for midsummer, when Winter would be weakest.


3)Mab's job in BG was, in gaming terms, to focus the enemy tank.
To draw and hold the attention of the enemies big sticks, so everyone else could maneuver in the blindspot that her presence would evoke in the BBEG. She did that.




The Doylist reason, of course, are in part plot contrivance, in part that our PoV character only sees a fraction of what is going on, and in part that Peace Talks/Battlegrounds were written at the tail end of a six year hiatus after Skin Game.
Which was itself 2 years after the previous book.

The author had personal issues in that interregnum, and then when he finally got around to writing PT/BG it ended up being a single huge book that had to be to split it up by the publisher under some time pressure.
The final works are not as..... polished as they could be.

1. Mab is shit at fighting, as far as we can tell, because the only time she is shown fighting she is shit at it.

Sure, we're told she's powerful, but really we could've been shown it too? Curb Stomp Cushion is a trope, after all. Mab didn't need to be written like an absolute loser in Battle Ground to showcase Ethniu's power. Nevertheless, that's what Jim did.

2. We are actually never given an explanation for why Ethniu was so powerful. WOJ says she's strong, but nowhere in Battle Ground is it explained. The Eye depended on fear but could be shut off by a rainstorm. Ethniu, meanwhile, was just that strong. Lots of fanon exists to try and explain it, but there's zero Word of Butcher on why she's so strong.

3. If Mab was to be a tank, maybe she could've tanked more than one hit? That she didn't need to tank, because she could've done as everyone else in the entire book did and dodged. And then wait for Titania to come in for the save and put some dirt in Ethniu's Eye. Then she could've contributed to the actual fight, rather than triple somersault backflip her way into a farcical defeat.

I fully agree that Battle Ground was not up to Jim's previous standards. Yet he still wrote it, and it's still canon. Mab is, canonically, someone who does not comprehend the esoteric tactics of "dodging" or "avoiding defeat in detail".
 
To add to the above, Mab's super power can be.....King's power from OPM, i.e Misunderstandings.

Wait, is Mab the reincarnation of Tanya the Evil?
 
Why can't they?Hedge magic is a 5 dot merit from ExvsWoD book that can be bought to get Emanation access to mortal Path magic.
For the same reason Vampires cant buy Brigid's Heir and start casting Ancient Sorcery.
And why Garou dont awaken their Avatars and start casting Mage rotes.

Its a construct.
It doesnt, shouldnt qualify for mortal-only or Exalt-only merits.
Any more than it gets access to Vampire-only or Werewolf-only Merits.



This has been discussed with @DragonParadox. Yes, you can. In fact, you can do everything with an Emanation you could normally do with a PC, because you can have a PC Emanation. Moreover, you can stack the sh*t out of this - make a prodigy, and use it as a keystone for an emanation, then gift them said prodigy, and some splendors, and use them as keystones for new emanations, etc.
I did not see that discussion. I would request a citation before I can comment on it.
It would make no sense, since constructs, whether PCs or not, cant attune most Wonders or Fetishes either.

Its certainly not in the Crafting rules as written; the rules are very clear:
Splendor Ownership
A Splendor always has an owner. This individual need not be an Exalt: anyone can own a
Splendor. There's no limit to the number of Splendors a single individual might own.

When a Splendor comes into being, its creator automatically gains ownership of it. From that
point, there are only two means by which ownership can be transferred. The Splendor may either
be intentionally given to someone else, an act requiring conscious and deliberate choice and the
expenditure of one point of Willpower; or else the Splendor may be taken. This requires the
murder of its current owner. Ownership of the Splendor automatically transfers to whoever was
most directly responsible for its former owner's death.

If the owner of a Splendor dies by natural causes, by their own hand, or by accident or mishap
that is the fault of no one but themselves, then they pass into the underworld as a wraith and
continue to own any Splendors they possess there.

The Neverborn Malfeans have collected a tiny handful of Splendors from souls fallen into
Oblivion. With the Chosen once more abroad in the world, they may stand to gain more.

Splendor Attunement
Ownership is not sufficient to wield a Splendor. First, it must be attuned. Attuning to a Splendor
requires an hour of undisturbed meditation upon it, allowing the Essence of the splendor to wash
over its owner. Next, a successful Essence roll must be made against difficulty (4 + Splendor's
rating). Attunement remains active until voluntarily relinquished.

An Exalt may be simultaneously attuned to a number of Splendors equal to her Essence rating. 4
and 5-dot Splendors "take up" 2 Essence worth of capacity, but may still be attuned by Essence 1
characters. A character can only have one Adornment attuned to her at a time, but may be
attuned to multiple Fascinations.

Un-Exalted magicians can also attune to Splendors, if they can somehow gain ownership of one.
This requires an Arete roll for mages, an Instinct or Self-Control roll for vampires and hedge
magicians, a Rituals roll for werewolves, a Gremayre roll for changelings, a P'o roll for the
Hungry Dead (beware of botching), a Faith roll for demons, and a Sekhem roll for mummies, all
made at difficulty (6 + Splendor's rating), with Splendors rated at 4 or 5 being impossible to
attune, and only one attunement at a time possible.
TLDR
Anyone can own a Splendor according to Holden's rules, but only a limited category can attune one.
An Exalt may only attune one Adornment at a time, but may attune multiple Fascinations simultaneously.
And non-Exalt magicians can only attune one Splendor at a time of rating 3 dots or lower; 4 and 5 dots are off-limits.

Consider what happens to Splendors when the owner dies, for example.

===
I seriously have no idea why you think the guy who explicitly wrote his new Crafting system because he explicitly wanted to deny Wonders to Exalts is going to write a system where you can stack Splendors on magic constructs.
Yes, Wonders still exist in this system; Holden just wants to silo Exalts away from them by creating entirely new categories of items.



We have seen her dice pools when she had all the time to prepare for social combat, and no reason to underestimate us. Assuming she has roughly the same for combat against non-outsiders, she's rolling roughly 17 dice with -2DC adjustment. I could build a Strength 9, Dex 7, Con 9, melee 5 monster with 16 soak (soaks Agg at DC 5, soaks everything else at -3 DC), with some ridiculous weaponry and very strong resistances to any and all magic, with perfect defenses against several elements, including all of Winter's repertoire. Not quite sure about attacking power (will need to calc that out), but I am fairly sure I can come up with something fairly strong. Yes, I think I can make a thing that would take on, even mop the floor, with Mab. She'd be able to escape, obviously, but in a direct white room combat? I would at least give a specifically designed 5 dot Arcana equal odds.

If I had time to actually do it, then a 5 dot Arcana with a full panoply (i.e. 5 5 dot attuned splendors / prodigies) would abslutely wreck anything and everything we have seen so far in the story. You are strongly, strongly underestimating them.
1)No, we didnt.
We explicitly forestalled social combat by bringing up Maeve's situation.


2)Mab's social combat dice pool at our initial meeting was 20 dice, and thats not counting any save or die abilities like the UMI glamor that IPM allowed us to shut down. And social is her dump stat.

Winter's primary role, and that of its Queen, is to defend Reality's borders. Thats what the Fae have done for ages, even back when it was other pantheons who got command, the fae were the foot soldiers. If she's able to throw 20 dice of social at us, her combat and leadership dice pools will be higher, because thats her primary role.

And thats just raw dice, not any charm-like abilities she may or may not bring to the table.
Winter doesnt really like investing effort into magic items and weapons for doctrinal reasons according to Butcher, so you can at least rest easy that she's not got a Gugnir in her armory.


3) Even an Exalt is only allowed to attune Splendors up to her Essence cap, with each 4 or 5 dot Splendor counting as 2 Essence.
The idea of loading up an Arcana with that many is mechanically impossible.

Not that it matters.
Splendors arent going to stop Mab Seeker Arianna tearing it to pieces, looting the corpse and pissing on the remains.
These things are not supposed to be in the role you are trying to force them into.


No, they are explicitely not of the same power. Golems are what you want for combat power.
No, that cant be true. *checks* No, its not true.

Golems are stronger and more survivable, because they get to soak damage better, and have higher base soak.
But they are still the same power tier; their tradeoffs for that brawniness includes significantly lower social, and critically, mental attributes. Like Wits. And Perception.

Anyone who's fought naagloshii, or fae, or svartalfar will attest to how important being able to see your enemy is.



There's literally a section called Countering A Splendor.
The intent is repeatedly reiterated that there is supposed to be means for the rest of the setting to address this sort of thing.

Bone stains quite easily. If you had a way to conjure ink / markings there, you could tattoo it. In fact, this has been done in real life (article talking about it, it has links to at least two scientific papers where direct examples of tattoos on bones are shown).
Dead bone stains. Living bone doesnt.

You misread your article.
It speculates that staining on historic bones is either post-mortem manipulation, or due to ink deposition during decomposition of the overlying soft tissue:
Your Article said:
There are two interesting research studies Deter-Wolf pointed me at that claimed to have found tattoo pigment on human bone in the archaeological record. In 1969, bioarchaeologist George Armelagos and colleagues published an article in Science about their findings from ancient Nubia. Specifically, their Figure 5, which you can view at the linked article, is captioned "Tattooing on the femur of an X-group male (infrared photograph)" from a cemetery that dates to 350-550 AD. The design in question involves a diamond-and-dot pattern. And in 2010, archaeologist Natalia Shishlina and colleagues reported on tattoos from a Bronze Age burial ground in Russia dating to around 2600 BC. Their Figure 3, which you can view at the linked article, shows parallel, zig-zag lines on a tibia from one skeleton, and Figure 4 reveals lines and dots on the right metacarpals of a second skeleton. Shishlina and colleagues assume that "as the skin decomposed, the sooty substance that had been used to make the tattoo was transferred to the bone." Based on the way skin tattoos work, however, Deter-Wolf and other colleagues he has spoken with are "very skeptical that this process could actually occur." An alternative explanation is that both the Nubian and Russian examples are the result of a specific death ritual that involved post-mortem manipulation of the bones.
Living bone does not tattoo as far as I am aware.
I have never heard of it being possible.

Yes, we can, quite easily so. Pay someone to do this for us, never appearing on the radar of the people we need to convince to stay away.
@BronzeTongue addresses this better than I can right now.
 
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Unfortunately, said single data point is the only data point we have for Mab's combat prowess, asides from OC WOJ. I do agree that it made absolutely no sense and I sincerely hope isn't canon to this quest, but we simply can't ignore that it's what Jim Butcher wrote.


On the matter of Battleground, and indeed all books after Proven Guilty, but especially that one, there will be some picking and choosing of what is and is not canon. Mab having the combat capabilities of a wet noodle is one of the major problems with that book especially given how much she was built up and what her actual job is.
 
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1. Mab is shit at fighting, as far as we can tell, because the only time she is shown fighting she is shit at it.

Sure, we're told she's powerful, but really we could've been shown it too? Curb Stomp Cushion is a trope, after all. Mab didn't need to be written like an absolute loser in Battle Ground to showcase Ethniu's power. Nevertheless, that's what Jim did.

2. We are actually never given an explanation for why Ethniu was so powerful. WOJ says she's strong, but nowhere in Battle Ground is it explained. The Eye depended on fear but could be shut off by a rainstorm. Ethniu, meanwhile, was just that strong. Lots of fanon exists to try and explain it, but there's zero Word of Butcher on why she's so strong.

3. If Mab was to be a tank, maybe she could've tanked more than one hit? That she didn't need to tank, because she could've done as everyone else in the entire book did and dodged. And then wait for Titania to come in for the save and put some dirt in Ethniu's Eye. Then she could've contributed to the actual fight, rather than triple somersault backflip her way into a farcical defeat.

I fully agree that Battle Ground was not up to Jim's previous standards. Yet he still wrote it, and it's still canon. Mab is, canonically, someone who does not comprehend the esoteric tactics of "dodging" or "avoiding defeat in detail".
1) We've never seen Langtry or Rashid throw down, but we accept that they're badass on the battlefield based on their job requirements. None of the Dragons have come out to play, but noone doubts their power.
Odin got smashed worse than Mab did, but noone says he's bad at war.

Again, if she was bad at her job, the setting would be long dead.
The fact that there's a setting speaks to both her command and combat abilities.


2)We arent given any explanation about why Walkers are so powerful either.
We still have no idea why Starborn are supposed to be so scary, despite people dropping oblique hints all the fucking time. Demonreach's everything remains largely a mystery. Thats like genre-normal.

But Titans in general are supposed to have been part of the work crews that constructed Creation according to Butcher.
While Dragons were supposedly the equivalent of construction vehicles.
Thats all we know from the latest batches of Word of Butcher.


3) Focusing the enemy tank, not being the tank. Drawing and holding its attention.
She played her part by holding Ethniu's attention while everyone else maneuvered around them into position. Facetanking the Eye of Balor was part of it; in doing so where she did, she goaded Ethniu out of support distance of her army, where she got dogpiled.

And even after tanking the Eye of Balor, she kept running her army by telepathy.

This was always supposed to be a puzzle fight, and the endgame was supposed to be Dresden binding Ethniu in Demonreach.
This required getting Ethniu's blood into the hands of Demonreach's Warden while he carried the Spear of Destiny.
Everything else, while important, was a sideshow.

Its also notable that with Mab holding her attention, Ethniu neglected to actually run her army.
And it got essentially wiped out, even before the US military showed up to perform a coup de grace on the fleeing remnants.
 
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For the same reason Vampires cant buy Brigid's Heir and start casting Ancient Sorcery.
And why Garou dont awaken their Avatars and start casting Mage rotes.

Its a construct.
It doesnt, shouldnt qualify for mortal-only or Exalt-only merits.
Any more than it gets access to Vampire-only or Werewolf-only Merits.
It models a god. A minor god, but a god. A spirit, if you are more inclined to call it that. It should be natively capable of magical manipulations. We get that through hedge magic merit to model it getting access to sorcery. This was discussed.
I did not see that discussion. I would request a citation before I can comment on it.
I'll get back to you on that later.
TLDR
Anyone can own a Splendor according to Holden's rules, but only a limited category can attune one.
An Exalt may only attune one Adornment at a time, but may attune multiple Fascinations simultaneously.
And non-Exalt magicians can only attune one Splendor at a time of rating 3 dots or lower; 4 and 5 dots are off-limits.

Consider what happens to Splendors when the owner dies, for example.

===
I seriously have no idea why you think the guy who explicitly wrote his new Crafting system because he explicitly wanted to deny Wonders to Exalts is going to write a system where you can stack Splendors on magic constructs.
Yes, Wonders still exist in this system; Holden just wants to silo Exalts away from them by creating entirely new categories of items.
Holden, from all looks, really disliked craft, yes. Yet his system still allows for it, and under it, you still can do some silly things.

And there's nothing about constructs being unable to attune splendors / prodigies in the rules. As long as you have access to some manner of power, you seemingly can attune them.

1)No, we didnt.
We explicitly forestalled social combat by bringing up Maeve's situation.
17 dice with 2 DC reduction was in the update before that.
And social is her dump stat.
You pulled this out of your ass. Entirely.
3) Even an Exalt is only allowed to attune Splendors up to her Essence cap, with each 4 or 5 dot Splendor counting as 2 Essence.
The idea of loading up an Arcana with that many is mechanically impossible.
You can attach multiple Arcana to the same keystone. Like our spirit binders do in-story. And have each Arcana attune one splendor.
Not that it matters.
Splendors arent going to stop Mab Seeker Arianna tearing it to pieces, looting the corpse and pissing on the remains.
These things are not supposed to be in the role you are trying to force them into.
You are underestimating exalted side of the story. Again.
Dead bone stains. Living bone doesnt.
That's wrong. You can stain living bone. Nothing I know of biology says it shouldn't.
Living bone does not tattoo as far as I am aware.
I have never heard of it being possible.
Tooth tattoos are a thing. A stupid thing, but a thing.

Edit: on bone disdoloration, there's also this. You can color bone at least yellow, green and black.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 31, 2023 at 3:46 AM, finished with 71 posts and 17 votes.

  • [X] White collar crime can often be the prelude to more violent crimes, and he's very likely associated with people that aren't so innocent. That said, some discreet contact would be possible. You have ways of securing phone calls and emails if needed. Take it from there and remember that you both have your own lives.
    -[X] If he or his boss try to get Rosie into trouble, make sure she tells you. You can protect her, but only if she talks to you.
    -[X] Use this opportunity to talk to Rosie about the Laws of Magic, why they are what they are, why they are enforced in the way they are, and what to do not to run afoul of them
    --[X] Empathy excellency not to distress Rosie
    [X] Sounds...complicated. Although re-establishing contact with her father himself is not likely dangerous, it's probably not her father she needs to worry about. As a virtual non-entity in her father's life who has had no contact with the man in well over a decade, her existence may be unknown, or more likely discounted, by his employers and the authorities who are acting against him. If Rosie changes that equation, both she and her unborn child become new variables which will be taken into account. The last thing anyone needs is for her or the baby to become leverage to be used against her father.
    [X] Yeah, could be worse, I think you should talk to him
    [X] Sounds dangerous, you should hold off on contacting him for now
    [X] White collar crime can often be the prelude to more violent crimes, and he's very likely associated with people that aren't so innocent. That said, some discreet contact would be possible. You have ways of securing phone calls and emails if needed. Take it from there and remember that you both have your own lives.
 
Arc 10 Post 31: Picking Up
Picking Up

20th of December 2006 A.D.

Rosie grips the sheets nervously as she awaits not advice, but a verdict. Is is OK for her to talk to her father? Truth be told you do not feel comfortable answering that, who are you to judge this man sight unseen, much less his relationship with his daughter? But at the same time there are warnings worth giving here, this isn't just about family. If the police is trying to snare Luis Marcella that means the FBI is probably tapping his phones. He's a money man, a high priority suspect in any organized crime investigation. Enough to try to make something of his daughter trying to reconnect? You would like to think not, but even so it will get Rosie put on a list... "White collar crime can be a prelude to other more violent things and he is associated with the mafia over there in Buffalo Rosie, paper trail's not hard to follow."

"Do I want to know how you followed it?" she asks after a moment. She seems to take your silence for an answer and is surprised when you explain:

"I've got ways of securing email and phone calls, take it from there and if you want my advice take it slow, both of you have your own lives."

Rosie nods before asking: "What about dream-walking? That's safe right?"

"From being intercepted? Almost guaranteed, but there are other risks you should be careful of..."Talking about the Laws of Magic to Rosie feels sleazy after what you did to her, after she still does not know, but it's for her own safety and she has to know given her growing mastery of dreams.

She takes it... about as well as could have been expected really. The prospect of summary execution for something one might do on accident is terrifying and the reason for it, the thing Black Magic does to the mind of the caster is even worse, but you are quick to offer reassurance, talking up all the talents you know in the city who are living happy, healthy lives with friends and family. The Order of Cauldron proves a priceless store of such examples as does the fact that Harry, the local representative of the shadowy cabal is the guy she has teased you over having a crush on for years and the roommate of clever, gentle Mouse who had helped give her introduction to the supernatural world.

"So I can talk to people, I can look, but I can't change their minds got it," she concludes, her pencil scratching a thick line under her latest note.

Rosie's dream journal, what some might consider her 'spellbook' is a plain green booklet with a polished steel lock on it, the kind that looks decorative, but is in fact sturdy enough to take anything short of a blow-torch. You made sure of that.

She sets it asside carefully.

"I want to talk to my dad now. Can you...?"

It says something about your friend's opinion of you that she thinks you have a means of avoiding phone taps on hand. Granted you do, that is one of the first things you set up with Clippy and her fellows, but still. A smile creeps its way across your face, but you have to ask: "Are you sure you wouldn't rather send an E-mail?"

"No, if stop now I'll just overthink it all and I'll never send anything I know it, I know me. Get it done before I get too far in my own head."

The phone rings, once, twice. Her words come out in rush: "Hello? Is this Luis Marcella?" After the briefest pause she follows up with: "It's me dad, it's Rose. I found your number on line and I... wanted to talk. If... if you want to."

A pause follows, just long enough to make Rosie's smile waver and for you to start wondering if you can spontaneously develop the ability to slap someone though the phone then in a strangled voice: "I'm sorry."

And that is your cue to pop in some regular headphones you do not really need and pretend to listen to music while you consider what other Chrstmas gifts to get:

[] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption

[] [Harry] Boots and socks

[] [Harry] A collection of arcane books on combat and investigative magics from the Fivefould Courts (Library ● ●)

[] [Harry] Write in

[] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob

[] [Bob] Romance novels, from the Brass Courts or from Earth

[] [Bob] Write in

[] [Mouse] A seta-style remote drone adapted not to require implants (a wearable harness, if possible, controller if not) for Mouse

[] [Mouse] A day at a spa in the Courts where he'll be treated as a sophont

[] [Mouse] Custom dog bed for a Big Boy

[] [Mouse] Write in


OOC: Next up will be finishing up the construction of Lash's body and then meeting the people you called over from the Courts and getting them settled in.
 
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[X] Plan High Tech Home Improvement
-[X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
-[X] [Bob] Magically-resistant computer with high-speed internet access paid for a year and a day for Bob
-[X] [Mouse] A seta-style remote drone adapted not to require implants (a wearable harness, if possible, controller if not) for Mouse
-[X] [Mouse] Custom dog bed for a Big Boy


Bob is rather obvious - internet access gives him all the smut romance he could ever want, and more besides. Harry is very arguable - I realize that (at least inititally) he'd probably appreciate Library 2 more, but Bob serves the same function, and getting him access to Internet improves his functionality a lot. Mouse deserves everything. I would throw in a spa day too, but even without that, this is a good combination. Seta drone to make up for lack of thumbs, and so he can maintain his new bed and use Harry's new appliances. This is a good synergetic set of gifts, I think.

On another note - with Lash removed, I think Dresden missed his chance to acquire soulfire - in canon, if I recall correctly, it was granted to him by Uriel after Lash died, and I'm not sure if the same would happen now.
 
wondering if you can spontenously develop the ability to slap someone though the phone

No, but depending on the ruling for range this might let you make him slap himself:

mind spider Curse (•••)
The Infernal may transmit her Essence through a
piece of electronics and directly into her victim's psyche, temporarily blanking out their mind and transforming it into a canvas upon which to write her own commands.
System: The Infernal must select a target who is staring at an electronic screen or feeding electronic sounds directly into his ear (such as someone browsing the internet with a laptop, listening to music through headphones, or talking on their cell phone). Spend 1 Essence and roll Manipulation + Computer against a difficulty of the target's Willpower rating. One or two successes will allow the Infernal to command her target to do anything that doesn't seem tremendously unusual or out of character. With three or four suc- cesses, she can command the target to do anything that doesn't endanger themselves or a loved one. With five or more successes, the target will risk his life and the lives of others at the Infernal's command.
Mind Spider Curse cannot hypnotize a target into harming or killing himself, compel him into certain death, or force him to betray his Nature.
 
So... I think I broke the system. Again. Or figured out a work-around for our training charms.

@DragonParadox , I would like your input and ruling on the following:
First, you have previously ruled that:
1) An N dot Splendor with a Transformation effect can turn the target into an N dot arcana
2) The transformation overrides attributes (charisma being taken as a mean between initial and transformed states, if I recall correctly), Willpower stays the same, and Abilities are taken as max{initital,transformed} (i.e. if the arcana patterns has Occult 5, and the initial target has occult 1, they get Occult 5, and if the reverse is true (the initital state has Occult 5, and the transformed state has occult 0, they get to keep Occult 5).
3) That Arcana, at least some Arcana, can get Hedge Magic merit.

Under these rulings, would the following be possible:
1) Make a transformation splendor that inflicts a permanent transformation on the target. For that you need a five dot splendor with an elongation of the curse feature (or a lower dot splendor with multiple stacks of elongation, if that's allowed - I wasn't able to find a ruling about that).
2) Make the transformed state a "simulacra:clone" type. The attribute set mimics the initial distribution of target attributes (given that the target is intended to be mortal, that should be more than possible)
3) Use all 6 arcana features for Expertise feature. This gives us 7+5*5=32 dots of abilities. For the sake of sanity, these ability dots come pre-distributed, i.e. baked into the pattern of the splendor (the same splendor always grants the same abilities). Alternatively use some of the arcana features for Divine Favor (ability goes up to 6, and counts as Favored. There's no description of what that means, but I'll assume it starts working same as exalted favored abilities, i.e. 1s don't count as minuses)
4) We are still left with 15 freebie points. Buy hedge magic merit (5 points) + 3 dots of a path (we would need to select a path, but that's a separate issue)+1 ritual. Use remaining freebie point for whatever.

At this point you essentially granted a person 59 free ability points (13+9+5 ability points from Arcana build, 32 from 6X Expertise arcana features), hedge magic ability, and one Path at 3 dots. That's quite powerful, but still not exactly super broken, because you would need to kill 2 elder vampires and 2 godlings in order to make the splendor in question. You would be able to... not mass produce these, but still apply the splendor repeatedly (form of hero's shadow is good for that).

The broken(ish) part comes in how you can make multiple of these transformation items. Each of which would grant 59 ability points. There are 30 abilities. With 3 splendors you can grant a person every ability at 5 dots, and have 27 points left over. Depending on if favored ability status carries over (or at least 6 dot ability rating does), you could swap 2 expertise purchases for Divine Favor, which leaves you with 49 ability points per splendor + 2 abilities that can be raised to 6 points (and raising which costs 1 freebie point, which we conveniently have).

The person who goes through these sequential transformations would also have Hedge Magic merit, and either 1 or three paths at 3 dots + up to 3 rituals (possibly less, if we want to have all favored abilities at 6 dots).

Yes, it's super-expensive resource wise, but it essentially allows us to flash-train minions once completed, and is quite superior to our training charm. It doesn't turn targets into Creatures of Darkness (unless all our Arcana count as one), doesn't incur any obligations on them, and gives them much more training (ability points) than our charm would.

And yes, I remember that we need to have a path practitioner to participate in Splendor making in order to allow for Path dots purchases.
 
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Unfortunately that does not work, you cannot give someone hedge magic as part of a transformation, that is learned information, it is not innate.
Hmm? To clarify:
1) Do you mean that you can't give someone Hedge Magic merit, i.e. the ability/potential to learn hedge magic? Or do you mean that you can't purchase Hedge Magic dots? If it's the dots, then that's not an issue at all - we could use those freebie points for 2 more arcana features (for two Divine Favors per transformation, or some other thing, like the 6 dot merit for free willpower successes and no botching)

2) Other than Hedge Magic part, does the proposed idea work? I.e. can you make essentially stacked permanent transformation to grant mortals large amounts of ability points?
 
Hmm? To clarify:
1) Do you mean that you can't give someone Hedge Magic merit, i.e. the ability/potential to learn hedge magic? Or do you mean that you can't purchase Hedge Magic dots? If it's the dots, then that's not an issue at all - we could use those freebie points for 2 more arcana features (for two Divine Favors per transformation, or some other thing, like the 6 dot merit for free willpower successes and no botching)

2) Other than Hedge Magic part, does the proposed idea work? I.e. can you make essentially stacked permanent transformation to grant mortals large amounts of ability points?

I mean you can make an arcanum with hedge magic (as long as you know the magic or collaborate with someone who does), but not pull the splendor trick with it. If you want to give someone the innate ability to breathe fire that is one thing, but something as complex and circumstantial as hedge magic cannot be reduced to instinct

The same goes for expertise, if you want to build a skill into someone you are going to have to build the person up from scratch. If something is instinctive or reflexive, an ability supernatural or otherwise you can add it to an already existing person, but you cannot cheese the system to give them what is basically another whole person's worth of skills. That would not only get silly very fast, but it would also make training charms pointless.

So the idea does not work, sorry for any confession this caused previously.
 
[X] [Harry] Magic-resistant home appliances from the courts, and some tomes on magic fit for general consumption
[X] [Mouse] A day at a spa in the Courts where he'll be treated as a sophont
 
I mean you can make an arcanum with hedge magic (as long as you know the magic or collaborate with someone who does), but not pull the splendor trick with it. If you want to give someone the innate ability to breathe fire that is one thing, but something as complex and circumstantial as hedge magic cannot be reduced to instinct

The same goes for expertise, if you want to build a skill into someone you are going to have to build the person up from scratch. If something is instinctive or reflexive, an ability supernatural or otherwise you can add it to an already existing person, but you cannot cheese the system to give them what is basically another whole person's worth of skills. That would not only get silly very fast, but it would also make training charms pointless.

So the idea does not work, sorry for any confession this caused previously.
No problem. It's what stress testing and debugging (and that's essentially what I am doing with the system) are for.

So, how does transformation splendor work then in regards to abilities? If I understand correctly, attributers are overwritten, willpower stays the same as initial. What happens to abilities? The latest ruling seems to indicate that they are either disregarded entirely (same as with willpower), or some of them are disregarded (certainly all knowledges, and probably also skills, but what about talents?). Is that correct?

Also, what about Hedge Magic merit itself? Not the path dots, but the spark of talent that makes it possible to learn the path dots later on with XP?

EDIT: Also, do non-physical merits carry over after transformation? That also can get quite silly, if less silly than the first iteration of the idea.
 
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