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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
VOTE
[X] Artemis1992

A lot of the elements of the leading vote are based on what appear to me to be mistaken premises.

And even if she thought this was a standard part of the NeverNever?
All we'd do is have her leave with a scarf, or a book, or something else from the Brass Courts that she can puzzle over to her heart's content. When it doesnt evaporate in sunlight, she'll have to figure out what happened.

The rest is just making a fuss over something that ultimately isnt that important.


We voted for a version of the Brass Courts which is a very alien place with very alien people as compared to Earth.
Maybe a third of the people here look human. There is no sun. No moon.
The magical energies of the place is nothing like Earth; there's balefire elementals around here.

That in and of itself supports the idea that this is a Hell, and telling a person not to believe their own eyes and senses seems like one of those very high DC rolls.
You cant have it both ways my friend.

And they have no way of confirming any comment about Yama King bombs or corruptiveness.
WE have no way of confirming that; we explicitly admit that we dont know whats in the Labyrinth.
And we havent been in charge for more than six months anyway.
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I'm gonna be honest I'm just tired of not putting our cards out when we can this is mostly low risk and even if shes not convinced it puts the idea out there. Also I don't think the vote straight up says this isn't a hell that was just yog. It says that the rules here are different compared to hells but it doesn't say its not a hell.
 
Yog said:
Note that in the actual vote I say "angels of the Lord", not "archangel Uriel". It is plausible / possible for us to have met an angel. It's possible to interpret this as having talked to one of the family's angelic protectors, existence of which should be known or at least suspected by White Council. I am trying to be somewhat protective of information even while sharing it.

Other than this concern, which I hope I have answered, what are your thoughts in general? I feel that this sort of misunderstanding might taint our future relationship if left to fester.
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1) We didnt vote to take them home with us; they didnt see her home or meet her family. Or meet Michael.
There's no supporting evidence for this from Wu Min's PoV; even for Morgan, last time he met Michael was in June, so he doesnt know if Michael is still a Knight, except by testimony of Dresden.


2) Do recall that Wu Min's reports are going to be read and interpreted by other people. Other wizards.
It is of very little benefit to us to convince Wu Min that its not a Hell when all the evidence that goes into her report suggests that it shares most of the commonalities of a Hell.

And frankly, it would make people suspicious about whether we whammied her if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but she calls it a walrus.


3)Our primary goal is to establish that we arent hostile or evil or malevolent. Nothing else here is really that important.
Its not about the location, its about the people and its policies.

Corruptive?
The Brass Courts have records going back hundreds of years that are publicly available; easy enough for Wu Min to check and draw her own conclusions. We have no reason to worry about it.

Buried Yama King? No way to confirm or deny independently one way or the other.
Besides, Earth itself has multiple prisons/imprisoned bad guys without making the planet uninhabitable.
Demonreach is just a couple miles from Chicago, and noone is freaking out about it corrupting the millions who live in the city.

Yog said:
Actually, there would. Their uses would be more limited, but if they could be used to secure routes and areas in NeverNever, they would still be damn useful. And at least parts of this meeting is about setting up terms for summoning kill teams of power armored nuclear dragon men.
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Thats a probable no, given how most of the Ways that the Council uses in the NeverNever run through Faerie. Which is claimed by the Faerie Courts. Furthermore, putting small groups of Brass Court personnel in isolated locations is asking for them to get hit by people looking to aggro Molly personally or gather intel on the Brass Courts.

No, this meeting has nothing to do with military affairs.
Its a research/factfinding delegation: I quote:
"I would like to propose an exchange of lore with the... Brass Courts?" he glances at you to see if the name is name is acceptable, but you just wave it off. Names can come later. "No offense to the presentation given but this was more of an tourist's brochure than a substantive exchange of information. I could put together a research delegation, three wizards lets say..." He glances at Harry. "One of them can be Dresden if he so chooses and in exchange we could explain the workings of earthly matters to scholars from your realm. The Council has some experience in such matters."
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We're not just trading people away like Pokemon cards.

DragonParadox said:
Ah, to be clear I am not saying 'they think anything in here will melt', they probably have proof that it will not. My point was that in spite of that one oddity Wu Mei still thinks this is a sort of Yomi Wan.
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Oh. Thats a logical conclusion as supported by the evidence.
I mean, its not like we have balefire elementals as naturally occurring spirits on Earth. Or even in Faerie; Faerie is very close to Earth in its features and inhabitants, and a lot of its denizens have analogues .
 
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An attempt at paraphrasing and possibly adjusting Yog's vote for the purposes of my own understanding:

1. I don't doubt there's something big and dangerous down there that shouldn't be messed with yet, what I doubt is that it's specifically a Yama King's shadow. Thanks for the warning though.

2. The Metaphysics of our realm are not the same as those of a Yomi Wan Hell(Somehow without mentioning Amoracchius)
3. The Source of our power is
a. Older than the Hells of Yomi Wan
b. Intended for Mortal Use according to the angel we asked
4. We have reason to believe our hells history was retroactively created. Like Young Earth creationism only real.
5. If it was retroactively created by our exaltation, why would it be a Yama King?
 
uju32 said:
1) We didnt vote to take them home with us; they didnt see her home or meet her family. Or meet Michael.
There's no supporting evidence for this from Wu Min's PoV; even for Morgan, last time he met Michael was in June, so he doesnt know if Michael is still a Knight, except by testimony of Dresden.


2) Do recall that Wu Min's reports are going to be read and interpreted by other people. Other wizards.
It is of very little benefit to us to convince Wu Min that its not a Hell when all the evidence that goes into her report suggests that it shares most of the commonalities of a Hell.

And frankly, it would make people suspicious about whether we whammied her if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but she calls it a walrus.


3)Our primary goal is to establish that we arent hostile or evil or malevolent. Nothing else here is really that important.
Its not about the location, its about the people and its policies.

Corruptive?
The Brass Courts have records going back hundreds of years that are publicly available; easy enough for Wu Min to check and draw her own conclusions. We have no reason to worry about it.

Buried Yama King? No way to confirm or deny independently one way or the other.
Besides, Earth itself has multiple prisons/imprisoned bad guys without making the planet uninhabitable.
Demonreach is just a couple miles from Chicago, and noone is freaking out about it corrupting the millions who live in the city.


Thats a probable no, given how most of the Ways that the Council uses in the NeverNever run through Faerie. Which is claimed by the Faerie Courts. Furthermore, putting small groups of Brass Court personnel in isolated locations is asking for them to get hit by people looking to aggro Molly personally or gather intel on the Brass Courts.

No, this meeting has nothing to do with military affairs.
Its a research/factfinding delegation: I quote:

We're not just trading people away like Pokemon cards.


Oh. Thats a logical conclusion as supported by the evidence.
I mean, its not like we have balefire elementals as naturally occurring spirits on Earth. Or even in Faerie; Faerie is very close to Earth in its features and inhabitants, and a lot of its denizens have analogues .
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Again gonna note his plan doesn't actually say that its not a hell just that it has differences.
 
[x]"I have reason to doubt it's specifically the shadow of a Yama King, but I'm inclined to agree there's something down there and intend to take your advice anyways."
-[x]Afterwards: SUTRA Investigations with Carlos
 
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@Yog could you make it more clear that our place is a hell just its different from the others in the vote? Like I obviously don't think that'll make uju vote for it or anything they have other problems. I just don't want to lie about that in case thats the way you intended or dp reads it. Like keep the its different from the hells but maybe add the word other.
 
Yog said:
And at least parts of this meeting is about setting up terms for summoning kill teams of power armored nuclear dragon men.
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We shouldn't let them do that, not exactly. I'm all for supporting them, but our dragon men risk an awful lot fighting outside of our borders.

There might be ways around that, but we already know from WoG that if someone summons our realm's equivalent of nature/place spirits and the like they get the standard "kicked back to their home dimension on discorperation" rules. So we should start with that in addition to straight arms sales to avoid our people risking permanent death.

We like the council, we can even be said to be on their side for the most part, but we owe it to our people to place their interests higher on our priority list than any external organization's.

Edit:

firefrog600 said:
I'm gonna be honest I'm just tired of not putting our cards out when we can this is mostly low risk and even if shes not convinced it puts the idea out there. Also I don't think the vote straight up says this isn't a hell that was just yog. It says that the rules here are different compared to hells but it doesn't say its not a hell.
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As a general rule you should never tell anyone anything unless you know what the risk profile is like and there is no alternative feasible way to get them to do or share something you need. When it comes to important information anyway.

This isn't something you should get tired off or be looking to get around, it's standing policy among anyone who wants to win.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
We shouldn't let them do that, not exactly. I'm all for supporting them, but our dragon men risk an awful lot fighting outside of our borders.

There might be ways around that, but we already know from WoG that if someone summons our realm's equivalent of nature/place spirits and the like they get the standard "kicked back to their home dimension on discorperation" rules. So we should start with that in addition to straight arms sales to avoid our people risking permanent death.

We like the council, we can even be said to be on their side for the most part, but we owe it to our people to place their interests higher on our priority list than any external organization's.

Edit:


As a general rule you should never tell anyone anything unless you know what the risk profile is like and there is no alternative feasible way to get them to do or share something you need. When it comes to important information anyway.

This isn't something you should get tired off or be looking to get around, it's standing policy among anyone who wants to win.
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eh I think your being too careful honesty can be a good thing and its not like we're given them info they can abuse for anything. The only bad thing it'll cause is interest from unscrupulous powers which was already gonna happen.

Also I'm just straight up tired of hiding shit in general its one my least favorite parts of quests if I'm being honest. Like I can get the necessity but people get into the habit of often doing it whenever the opportunity arises. I just generally dislike the act at all even if I know its necessary at times I just generally dislike dishonesty and hiding at least in cases like this. We don't need to do it at every opportunity.
 
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firefrog600 said:
eh I think your being too careful honesty can be a good thing and its not like we're given them info they can abuse for anything. The only bad thing it'll cause is interest from unscrupulous powers which was already gonna happen.
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The easiest way to learn how exploitable something is is to share it. You're the one being too casual about it.

Just to name some illustrative examples; every one of our powers with a wonky activation condition is something that can be disrupted by information and it how they work.

We lost BSM in the Kakuri fight by complete coincidence, someone who knows could have made that happen deliberately in addition to messing up other stuff.

we don't know what is already known to the people looking at us, and what little bits of information will give them what they need now or in the future to hurt us or our interests. Dealing with unknown unknowns is a bitch like that. Which is why you only share when you have to, and only then as much as you have to in order to keep in business, even when you think it's safe.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The easiest way to learn how exploitable something is is to share it. You're the one being too casual about it.

Just to name some illustrative examples; every one of our powers with a wonky activation condition is something that can be disrupted by information and it how they work.

We lost BSM in the Kakuri fight by complete coincidence, someone who knows could have made that happen deliberately in addition to messing up other stuff.

we don't know what is already known to the people looking at us, and what little bits of information will give them what they need now or in the future to hurt us or our interests. Dealing with unknown unknowns is a bitch like that. Which is why you only share when you have to, and only then as much as you have to in order to keep in business, even when you think it's safe.
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I'm gonna be honest I see no scenario where this ends with something mechanically harming us. If it did I still wouldn't care because I enjoy some honesty every once in a while more than I do putting us at slight harm.

Now if we started telling the mechanics of our powers to anyone we don't absolutely trust and even then only a place we are sure no one else can hear I'd riot.
 
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Upon further thought, I think I'm okay with Wu Min making incorrect assumptions about our power.

[X] SUTRA investigations with Carlos.
 
I don't like giving our enemies more info to work with on principle. Other Exaltations are out there and whatever the WC knows about them our enemies do too.

Also the truth of the matter is of an even bigger scale than what she misled herself to believe. I'm not sure how telling her the truth(even partially) is less terrifying. Its better to have your enemies underestimate you for as long as possible. The leading vote kind of feels like a pride thing to me.

[X] SUTRA investigations with Carlos.
 
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firefrog600 said:
I'm gonna be honest I'm just tired of not putting our cards out when we can this is mostly low risk and even if shes not convinced it puts the idea out there. Also I don't think the vote straight up says this isn't a hell that was just yog. It says that the rules here are different compared to hells but it doesn't say its not a hell.
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@BronzeTongue has laid out the case more eloquently than I usually can.
But I'll try again.

Nobody just puts their cards out. Not in this setting, not in World of Darkness.
The Council currently has multiple traitors, and thats not counting people who may be loyal to the Council but can be induced to share information they learned in it; Dresden himself talks to his allies about some stuff the wizards tell him for example.

In a setting like this where knowledge is power, controlling access to it matters.

You cannot unspeak information, or unshare it.
And once you put it out there, it will go wherever happenstance carries it.
And information in the hands of hostiles is not in our interests.
firefrog600 said:
Again gonna note his plan doesn't actually say that its not a hell just that it has differences.
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Thats a distinction without a difference.
The Thousand Hells have commonalities, but they are all individually different from each other.

Furthermore, Yomi Wan is not the only afterlife/Hell(s) in the setting, combined or individual.
The rules in Yomi Wan(World of Darkness) are different from the rules of Lucifer's Hell(Dresden Files), which is itself different from the rules of the Hell/Underworld run by Hades(Dresden Files).

There's also the Dark Kingdoms (World of Darkness), Malfeas(World of Darkness) and wherever the Southbound Train from Ghost Story goes(Dresden Files). They're all Hells and afterlives.
But how they are run and who runs them differs.

The proof of that pudding is in the eating, when people draw their own conclusions from the data at hand.
Not the ruler insisting strongly that her own Hell is Different(TM).

This is not just what Wu Min believes; the people reading her reports will look at the raw data from her and Morgan and Dresden and Carlos, not just her opinion. And her opinion differing very much from the data speaks to her either being whammied or bamboozled. Which would make her opinion worthless anyway.

firefrog600 said:
I kinda also would like the world to realize more and more what we are. Something that seems new but is just really really really fucking old.
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Why?
The Big Players we know of, the angels, Mab and Odin, Titania, the Great Dragons and the Outsiders, Lucifer and the Denarians Fallen and people in their weight class already know whats up or can make an informed guess.

Those less privileged bad guys like the Fomor and the Red Court and even most of the Yama Kings who dont know shit have to spend time and effort and resources to dig up any information thats available, which is time and effort and resources they dont have to otherwise fuck with us and ours.

I see no reason to make things easy for them.

And I will reiterate that whatever we put out can be used by enemies.
Just as a most recent, part of the reason we were able to outmaneuver Broken Seeker is because we were able to maintain information superiority over him/it. Without it, we'd have had significantly more worry about getting betrayed.
 
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uju32 said:
@BronzeTongue has laid out the case more eloquently than I usually can.
But I'll try again.

Nobody just puts their cards out. Not in this setting, not in World of Darkness.
The Council currently has multiple traitors, and thats not counting people who may be loyal to the Council but can be induced to share information they learned in it; Dresden himself talks to his allies about some stuff the wizards tell him for example.

In a setting like this where knowledge is power, controlling access to it matters.

You cannot unspeak information, or unshare it.
And once you put it out there, it will go wherever happenstance carries it.
And information in the hands of hostiles is not in our interests.

Thats a distinction without a difference.
The Thousand Hells have commonalities, but they are all individually different from each other.

Furthermore, Yomi Wan is not the only afterlife/Hell(s) in the setting, combined or individual.
The rules in Yomi Wan(World of Darkness) are different from the rules of Lucifer's Hell(Dresden Files), which is itself different from the rules of the Hell/Underworld run by Hades(Dresden Files).

There's also the Dark Kingdoms (World of Darkness), Malfeas(World of Darkness) and wherever the Southbound Train from Ghost Story goes(Dresden Files). They're all Hells and afterlives.
But how they are run and who runs them differs.

The proof of that pudding is in the eating, when people draw their own conclusions from the data at hand.
Not the ruler insisting strongly that her own Hell is Different(TM).

This is not just what Wu Min believes; the people reading her reports will look at the raw data from her and Morgan and Dresden and Carlos, not just her opinion. And her opinion differing very much from the data speaks to her either being whammied or bamboozled. Which would make her opinion worthless anyway.


Why?
The Big Players we know of, the angels, Mab and Odin, Titania, the Great Dragons and the Outsiders, Lucifer and the Denarians Fallen and people in their weight class already know whats up or can make an informed guess.

Those less privileged bad guys like the Fomor and the Red Court and even most of the Yama Kings who dont know shit have to spend time and effort and resources to dig up any information thats available, which is time and effort and resources they dont have to otherwise fuck with us and ours.

I see no reason to make things easy for them.

And I will reiterate that whatever we put out can be used by enemies.
Just as a most recent, part of the reason we were able to outmaneuver Broken Seeker is because we were able to maintain information superiority over him/it. Without it, we'd have had significantly more worry about getting betrayed.
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Yeah I don't really wanna argue this with you so I'll just say two things I don't see any mechanical way this could backfire for us. Also I'm probably not gonna change my mind on this. Not gonna disparage you for trying to convince me this but its just not what I want to play right now. Hope your okay with that.
 
[X] Yog

[X] SUTRA investigations with Carlos.

I like Yog's vote but I'm really not interested in continuing this conversation but rather moving on to Carlos, where we will have a younger wizard's point of view that is much easier to manipulate with our advantages (similar age, pretty, powerful girl, already We got his interest through our previous conversations, etc.). So vote of approval.

Furthermore, I want to see an example of what would be, in the disapproving eyes of any other older and more careful wizard (including Dresden, if he didn't know us), the exact scenario that ExVsWoD talks about in this section:

MAGES AND INFERNALS
On the other hand, mages are also endlessly convinced they can fix any problem, and a charismatic Infernal is very nearly the Platonic ideal of the "I-can-fixhim" boyfriend for a certain personality type. They can channel corrupt mystical forces without being physically debilitated or driven mad, they're incredibly powerful, and they may not be ideologically irredeemable… there's a lot to work with there, for a mage willing to ignore the abundant red flags.
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firefrog600 said:
this is mostly low risk
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Can we really assume that anything is low risk? Any information we share has the potential to be used against us, and we know that the White Council has traitors and spies aplenty within it. If they're under running compulsions to tell whoshisface anything that they learn on a mission, we're potentially up shit creek without a paddle, particularly if he can sell that information to someone who can more readily take advantage of it in exchange for, say, Favors. Honestly, we should've checked that before we spoke with the Merlin and the other Wardens with him, but oh well. Now whatshisname knows we have some form of intellectus. Even if they weren't traitors, they could be mindwhammied or what have you.
 
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TonedMite said:
Can we really assume that anything is low risk? Any information we share has the potential to be used against us, and we know that the White Council has traitors and spies aplenty within it. If they're under running compulsions to tell whoshisface anything that they learn on a mission, we're potentially up shit creek without a paddle, particularly if he can sell that information to someone who can more readily take advantage of it in exchange for, say, Favors. Honestly, we should've checked that before we spoke with the Merlin and the other Wardens with him, but oh well. Now whatshisname knows we have some form of intellectus. Even if they weren't traitors, they could be mindwhammied or what have you.
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I don't give a shit if enemies know we have some kind of intellectus that doesn't help them at all. Just makes them more cautious or it should from a realistic standpoint denarians should be far less likely to come here knowing about us. But the doylist is that their gonna come anyways cause their important to plot and directly adversarial to our family. Also I'm just fucking sick of having to hide things due to paranoia realistically unless we do downright retarded things like listing our weaknesses and blind spots dp is gonna keep the game semi reasonable.

Edit: But, I don't want to really argue about this just don't have the energy or want so can we stop? Like its not that controversial for me or anything I just don't feel like talking about it more and probably won't change my mind.
 
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TO be clear, I'm not worried about giving anything away in this case, no paranoia here.

I just don't think correcting her is worth it right now.

We will soon know more about our world and she will also learn more and some conceptual misunderstandings that don't affect the practical side are harmless and hard to clear up fully without going OOC.
 
Artemis1992 said:
TO be clear, I'm not worried about giving anything away in this case, no paranoia here.

I just don't think correcting her is worth it right now.

We will soon know more about our world and she will also learn more and some conceptual misunderstandings that don't affect the practical side are harmless and hard to clear up fully without going OOC.
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I don't think its really all that ooc we do know what we have is older than the yama king hells.
 
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