Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1) We didnt vote to take them home with us; they didnt see her home or meet her family. Or meet Michael.
There's no supporting evidence for this from Wu Min's PoV; even for Morgan, last time he met Michael was in June, so he doesnt know if Michael is still a Knight, except by testimony of Dresden.
Oh, now you are reaching. If Michael stopped being a knight, it wouldn't matter for the purpose of this conversation. And yes, there's Dresden's testimony. And oh, Merlin's.
2) Do recall that Wu Min's reports are going to be read and interpreted by other people. Other wizards.
It is of very little benefit to us to convince Wu Min that its not a Hell when all the evidence that goes into her report suggests that it shares most of the commonalities of a Hell.

And frankly, it would make people suspicious about whether we whammied her if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but she calls it a walrus.
It looks like a duck, weighs like a rhino, and quacks like a dinosaur. It's not a duck.
Demonreach is just a couple miles from Chicago, and noone is freaking out about it corrupting the millions who live in the city.
Almost no one knows about Demonreach. White Council almost certainly doesn't.
@Yog could you make it more clear that our place is a hell just its different from the others in the vote? Like I obviously don't think that'll make uju vote for it or anything they have other problems. I just don't want to lie about that in case thats the way you intended or dp reads it. Like keep the its different from the hells but maybe add the word other.
Not sure how?
As a general rule you should never tell anyone anything unless you know what the risk profile is like and there is no alternative feasible way to get them to do or share something you need. When it comes to important information anyway.
Nobody just puts their cards out. Not in this setting, not in World of Darkness.
The Council currently has multiple traitors, and thats not counting people who may be loyal to the Council but can be induced to share information they learned in it; Dresden himself talks to his allies about some stuff the wizards tell him for example.

In a setting like this where knowledge is power, controlling access to it matters.

You cannot unspeak information, or unshare it.
And once you put it out there, it will go wherever happenstance carries it.
And information in the hands of hostiles is not in our interests.
And I'll put my rebuttal to that out there now: this "standing policy" is one of the primary reasons why bad guys are winning. Because it favors secret societies and mistrust. It's easier to seed the disunity among ranks, than it is to foster cooperation in an environment like that, where everyone doubts everyone. Yes, it's also harder to worm your way into someone's trust, but it's easier to destroy than to create in societies like that.

The more "distrust tax" we pay on each interpersonal transaction, the easier it is to disrupt and destroy the results of such transactions.

And, besides, in this specific case, many of our enemies already know what's going on, while our nominal allies are laboring under false conceptions. Black Court, as servants of a Neverborn, are likely mainlining exalted lore. Outsiders recognize us as the Prince of the Earth and heir to Empyrian Chaos. Denarians felt us Becoming and understand that our realm is outside Creation. We are left with Red Court (arguable, depends on what lore they can buy from Outsiders), Black Council (possibly, depends on who they have among members, and how connected they are to Outsiders), and Fomori (arguable, depends on what information they can get from raksha, because I doubt Cleveland one was their only source, and what Ethniu knows, and what information Outsiders traded them).

Point is - our opposition has more access to information about us (Outsiders, Neverborn, Fallen angels) than our potential allies. This is something that needs remeding. The only advantage to not sharing the information is to make our opponents presume we are mistaken ourselves, and that's a shaky bet at best.
 
Oh, now you are reaching. If Michael stopped being a knight, it wouldn't matter for the purpose of this conversation. And yes, there's Dresden's testimony. And oh, Merlin's.

It looks like a duck, weighs like a rhino, and quacks like a dinosaur. It's not a duck.

Almost no one knows about Demonreach. White Council almost certainly doesn't.

Not sure how?


And I'll put my rebuttal to that out there now: this "standing policy" is one of the primary reasons why bad guys are winning. Because it favors secret societies and mistrust. It's easier to seed the disunity among ranks, than it is to foster cooperation in an environment like that, where everyone doubts everyone. Yes, it's also harder to worm your way into someone's trust, but it's easier to destroy than to create in societies like that.

The more "distrust tax" we pay on each interpersonal transaction, the easier it is to disrupt and destroy the results of such transactions.

And, besides, in this specific case, many of our enemies already know what's going on, while our nominal allies are laboring under false conceptions. Black Court, as servants of a Neverborn, are likely mainlining exalted lore. Outsiders recognize us as the Prince of the Earth and heir to Empyrian Chaos. Denarians felt us Becoming and understand that our realm is outside Creation. We are left with Red Court (arguable, depends on what lore they can buy from Outsiders), Black Council (possibly, depends on who they have among members, and how connected they are to Outsiders), and Fomori (arguable, depends on what information they can get from raksha, because I doubt Cleveland one was their only source, and what Ethniu knows, and what information Outsiders traded them).

Point is - our opposition has more access to information about us (Outsiders, Neverborn, Fallen angels) than our potential allies. This is something that needs remeding. The only advantage to not sharing the information is to make our opponents presume we are mistaken ourselves, and that's a shaky bet at best.
white council 100% knows about demonreach well the place at least multiple senior council members have been there prior to the story. Also you know merlin allegedly made the place.
 
white council 100% knows about demonreach well the place at least multiple senior council members have been there prior to the story. Also you know merlin allegedly made the place.
Not this Merlin. Some of the senior White Council members know of this place. Ancient Mai seemingly knows about Essence as opposed to mana, and Rashid knows stuff about Outside that others very much don't, etc. I highly doubt that White Council as a polity knows about Demonreach.
 
Not this Merlin. Some of the senior White Council members know of this place. Ancient Mai seemingly knows about Essence as opposed to mana, and Rashid knows stuff about Outside that others very much don't, etc. I highly doubt that White Council as a polity knows about Demonreach.
I mean as a polity no injun joes been there before I believe and the gatekeeper has been there and the island doesn't like him. The term warden literally comes from the islands well wardens. I kinda doubt the senior council doesn't know about the place.
 
And I'll put my rebuttal to that out there now: this "standing policy" is one of the primary reasons why bad guys are winning. Because it favors secret societies and mistrust. It's easier to seed the disunity among ranks, than it is to foster cooperation in an environment like that, where everyone doubts everyone. Yes, it's also harder to worm your way into someone's trust, but it's easier to destroy than to create in societies like that.

The more "distrust tax" we pay on each interpersonal transaction, the easier it is to disrupt and destroy the results of such transactions.

That, and the fact that in this specific case, the misunderstanding we can see is adding to the distrust.

But then again, you did already explain that the white council thinking we are the conqueror of a hell with the remnants of a Yama king would lead to them thinking of us as a potential bomb they shouldn't get too close to, instead of a stable ally they can trust, so I don't know how to convince the ones who wants to keep secrets for secrets' sake.

And it's not like this particular information actually helps our enemy as much as they seem to think too, the crown can be understood because no one likes to know we can learn their dirty secrets, but knowing that this hell was not one of the thousands? What does it give them? The information about exaltations isn't really available on the market, if it was, us telling would have no consequences, since they would already know, the most informed persons we met are not telling though, and I doubt that any that knows without us knowing would share.

Basically, in the end, our ennemies that knows already know, and those that don't aren't going to find info, is what I mean, status quo is the same but for the fact that they used ressources on searching for no real gain, and that's if it is learned outside the white council, which I already expressed doubts on.
 
OK, looks like Molly is going to try to play the 'there are more things in heaven and earth' card on the wizard, lets see how that works.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 22, 2023 at 4:49 AM, finished with 81 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Disabuse Wu Min of her misunderstanding in order to prevent a seed of distrust growing between you and the council
    -[X] Use the following pieces of information:
    --[X] That the rules are different here as compared to hells - without mentioning that Amoracchus couldn't follow MIchael here
    --[X] That the exaltation predates Yomi hells
    --[X] That the Courts are inherently a part of the exaltation, not something you conquered or chanced upon
    --[X] That the exaltations were made for mortals and mortals only - what Uriel told you
    --[X] Your inherent understanding of your powers
    -[X] Subterfuge excellency, ATB, Occult excellency, Empathy excellency
    -[X] STUNT: You join Wu Min in gazing out at the city for a moment, then let your eyes shift focus to her faint reflection in the glass. You see a pensiveness on her face, for all that she hides it behind a diplomat's practiced serenity - a worry that could turn to fear, and a fear that could poison all of your efforts towards a good relationship with the White Council if unaddressed.
    -[X] STUNT: You shift purposefully in your chair, drawing Wu Min's attention back to you, and meet her eyes across the library table. "I thank you for the advice in the spirit it was given, but your conclusions are wrong. These things I know, from the angels of the Lord, other forces trustful beyond reproach, and my own understanding that to others would be called Intellectus: This power of mine was made for mortal hands, and mortal hands only, in ages past, so that impossible can be made inevitable; Before I first stepped inside, this world..." and here you look out again to the city for a moment, letting Wu Min see the solemnity with which you view your duties, "...existed in-potentia only, and yet its history is no less true for it. Time as mortals know its flow not applicable to its history before I came here, even if now it is the same as on Earth; it is connected to my power, and to myself in a way more akin to how an arm is connected to the brain than how a conquered realm is connected to its conqueror; it is unlike other realms, hells included, the rules are different here."
    [X] SUTRA investigations with Carlos.
    [x]"I have reason to doubt it's specifically the shadow of a Yama King, but I'm inclined to agree there's something down there and intend to take your advice anyways."
    -[x]Afterwards: SUTRA Investigations with Carlos
 
And I'll put my rebuttal to that out there now: this "standing policy" is one of the primary reasons why bad guys are winning. Because it favors secret societies and mistrust.
No it isn't. Note that everyone, everyone, operates this way. Heaven, Hell, the white council, the red court, individual practitioners, mortal governments, it runs the spectrum.

When you see a survival tactic the common in an environment the default assumption shouldn't be that the whole world is stupid and waiting for your special insight. Sometimes it is, but a vast majority of the time there's a reason even if it's one you don't like.

Being able to share would make some things easier, but in a contested environment you can't stop what you share from being abused or otherwise track where it goes. The environment of distrust creates the secrecy, not the other way around. Everyone does this as a matter of course because not keeping secrets makes it at minimum more difficult to get things done.

If you want to shake your fist at the clouds here the consequences aren't people getting mad about you breaking social norms, it's your enemies showing up and exploiting you till they can't anymore. Even exalts are vulnerable to that.

This particular information is probably not that dangerous, which is why I'm voting for your plan, but this sort of thing is always a judgment call and is always a risk because we don't know what puzzles are out there in our enemies' heads that just need a few more puzzle pieces to finish.

More practically, the simplest cost here is that anyone coming at us won't necessarily make mistakes from incorrect assumptions if we share. They know to keep digging and try to pick up on things that they might have otherwise dismissed. That's not a huge one, but it is a layer of our passive defenses that we're forgoing in exchange for making the white council less likely to make a mistake based on a misunderstanding.

The reason you operate on default silence is because the first sign you'll get that you shared something you shouldn't have on a 'why not' is when someone with more information or a better imagination hurts you with it.

Maybe you get away clean with dozens of leaks before that, maybe each contributes a little until you're suddenly screwed, but either way you can't tell what's going to surprise you until after it happens. So you minimize the attack surface and hedge your bets wherever possible.
 
No it isn't. Note that everyone, everyone, operates this way. Heaven, Hell, the white council, the red court, individual practitioners, mortal governments, it runs the spectrum.

When you see a survival tactic the common in an environment the default assumption shouldn't be that the whole world is stupid and waiting for your special insight. Sometimes it is, but a vast majority of the time there's a reason even if it's one you don't like.

Being able to share would make some things easier, but in a contested environment you can't stop what you share from being abused or otherwise track where it goes. The environment of distrust creates the secrecy, not the other way around. Everyone does this as a matter of course because not keeping secrets makes it at minimum more difficult to get things done.

If you want to shake your fist at the clouds here the consequences aren't people getting mad about you breaking social norms, it's your enemies showing up and exploiting you till they can't anymore. Even exalts are vulnerable to that.

This particular information is probably not that dangerous, which is why I'm voting for your plan, but this sort of thing is always a judgment call and is always a risk because we don't know what puzzles are out there in our enemies' heads that just need a few more puzzle pieces to finish.

More practically, the simplest cost here is that anyone coming at us won't necessarily make mistakes from incorrect assumptions if we share. They know to keep digging and try to pick up on things that they might have otherwise dismissed. That's not a huge one, but it is a layer of our passive defenses that we're forgoing in exchange for making the white council less likely to make a mistake based on a misunderstanding.

The reason you operate on default silence is because the first sign you'll get that you shared something you shouldn't have on a 'why not' is when someone with more information or a better imagination hurts you with it.

Maybe you get away clean with dozens of leaks before that, maybe each contributes a little until you're suddenly screwed, but either way you can't tell what's going to surprise you until after it happens. So you minimize the attack surface and hedge your bets wherever possible.
And that's how you also miss cultists having already summoned Cthulhu, and that there's no one to save the world because ancient lore was lost, the Black Vault lies forgotten, and Black Court has a fully prepared circle of E5 Abyssals ready to take a shot at White God. I am not saying that everyone is stupid. I am saying "we cannot risk sharing any information" is a fail state of society / environment. It's a situation which slows down the decline, but fundamentally cannot result in growth.

And of course Denarians and such practice it. They are a secret society, infiltrators and destroyers, the revolutionaries. The diminished flow of information favors those who are in minority and acting against majority. That's pretty basic. That they and other anti-Creation forces were able to arrange political and societal landscape in this way is their biggest victory.
 
When you see a survival tactic the common in an environment the default assumption shouldn't be that the whole world is stupid and waiting for your special insight. Sometimes it is, but a vast majority of the time there's a reason even if it's one you don't like.

Well, yes, but that reason could very well be *the bad guys won on making the good guys mistrust each other* and in this sort of case, changing the status quo is a very good thing.

Miscommunications and mistrust between allies because they fear what their enemy could learn if they tell is not a sign of an healthy environment and should not be encouraged.
 
And that's how you also miss cultists having already summoned Cthulhu, and that there's no one to save the world because ancient lore was lost, the Black Vault lies forgotten, and Black Court has a fully prepared circle of E5 Abyssals ready to take a shot at White God. I am not saying that everyone is stupid. I am saying "we cannot risk sharing any information" is a fail state of society / environment. It's a situation which slows down the decline, but fundamentally cannot result in growth.

And of course Denarians and such practice it. They are a secret society, infiltrators and destroyers, the revolutionaries. The diminished flow of information favors those who are in minority and acting against majority. That's pretty basic. That they and other anti-Creation forces were able to arrange political and societal landscape in this way is their biggest victory.
You miss those things not because you're not sharing, but because the other side knows now to play information games better than you.

Sharing and selling other people's secrets is almost always less risky than messing about with your own, which is why there's a thriving market for them.

Well, yes, but that reason could very well be *the bad guys won on making the good guys mistrust each other* and in this sort of case, changing the status quo is a very good thing.

Miscommunications and mistrust between allies because they fear what their enemy could learn if they tell is not a sign of an healthy environment and should not be encouraged.
This is a lose lose scenario, you prove nothing and accomplish less by ignoring it. The result of just sharing whatever whenever without basic default to silence security is that your opponents gain an advantage. Maybe it's not enough to make a difference in the end, but it's hard to be sure about that.

Shake your fist at the sky if you want, but doing it standing in an empty field surrounded by snipers has one outcome regardless of your motive for doing so.
 
You miss those things not because you're not sharing, but because the other side knows now to play information games better than you.

Sharing and selling other people's secrets is almost always less risky than messing about with your own, which is why there's a thriving market for them.
You miss those things for both those reasons, both because cultists are hiding, and because your allies don't know what you know and are missing the signs that this particular black court is actually an abyssal knight. A minor winter fae notices an increase in travelers along a particular route in Syberia. An archivist in White Council knows that there's supposed to be some ancient wizard buried there. We recognize the wizard as Chejop Kejak. As a result of information being shared, Outsiders don't get their hands on a sidereal exaltation.

It's a question of simple math - who does the proliferation of information help more, and who does it harm more? If the information is of equal value to individuals in a smaller and larger organizations, then the larger organization benefits more.
The result of just sharing whatever whenever without basic default to silence security is that your opponents gain an advantage.
The issue with that logic is that your allies gain advantage too. Enemies get a say. We all, hopefully, remember, this. Allies do too - that's what everyone seems to be forgetting. And 1+1=11, not 2 is often true in politics of alliances.
Shake your fist at the sky if you want, but doing it standing in an empty field surrounded by snipers has one outcome regardless of your motive for doing so.
Shake your fist at the sky if you want, but so far, sharing information has always rewarded us. Lara shared information about Winter being corrupted - as a result we learned about Nemesis. We shared information with Mab - as a result Maeve is free and untainted. We shared information about our exorcism ability with Harry and Lash (who was, at the time, our enemy), and as a result we are getting an ally against Denarians the world has never seen.
 
You miss those things not because you're not sharing, but because the other side knows now to play information games better than you.

Sharing and selling other people's secrets is almost always less risky than messing about with your own, which is why there's a thriving market for them.


This is a lose lose scenario, you prove nothing and accomplish less by ignoring it. The result of just sharing whatever whenever without basic default to silence security is that your opponents gain an advantage. Maybe it's not enough to make a difference in the end, but it's hard to be sure about that.

Shake your fist at the sky if you want, but doing it standing in an empty field surrounded by snipers has one outcome regardless of your motive for doing so.
You miss those things not because you're not sharing, but because the other side knows now to play information games better than you.

Sharing and selling other people's secrets is almost always less risky than messing about with your own, which is why there's a thriving market for them.


This is a lose lose scenario, you prove nothing and accomplish less by ignoring it. The result of just sharing whatever whenever without basic default to silence security is that your opponents gain an advantage. Maybe it's not enough to make a difference in the end, but it's hard to be sure about that.

Shake your fist at the sky if you want, but doing it standing in an empty field surrounded by snipers has one outcome regardless of your motive for doing so.
We don't need to worry about that. We essentially have unlimited ability to obtain their information. We will always outplay them on the information battlefield.
 
We don't need to worry about that. We essentially have unlimited ability to obtain their information. We will always outplay them on the information battlefield.
That's kinda talking is a good way to get stabbed. For all of its power Crown is still limited and even if nothing can hide from it there are ways to work around the information it provides. Ultimately Crown is tied to one person and Molly, for all of her powers current and future, cannot fight the whole world plus Outside at the same time.

Hell, there are supposed to be Old Ones, incredibly powerful Outsiders or something, incarcerated a couple dimensions to the side. Powerful enough that nothing was able to kill them - that's including Swords and Archangels.

Sharing information with allies is good. Thinking that enemies cannot exploit it, or that Molly will always be able to counteract their plans because she could ask the Crown is folly and hubris. When something as simple as asking a question 5 minutes before an enemy chooses to change his plans is enough to break everything.
 
Not sharing the information is pointless when we know for a fact IC that our main enemies already know the information, for that matter our enemies know more then Molly does right now. Keeping a secret from your allies is useless when it already been told to your enemies.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 22, 2023 at 4:49 AM, finished with 81 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Disabuse Wu Min of her misunderstanding in order to prevent a seed of distrust growing between you and the council
    -[X] Use the following pieces of information:
    --[X] That the rules are different here as compared to hells - without mentioning that Amoracchus couldn't follow MIchael here
    --[X] That the exaltation predates Yomi hells
    --[X] That the Courts are inherently a part of the exaltation, not something you conquered or chanced upon
    --[X] That the exaltations were made for mortals and mortals only - what Uriel told you
    --[X] Your inherent understanding of your powers
    -[X] Subterfuge excellency, ATB, Occult excellency, Empathy excellency
    -[X] STUNT: You join Wu Min in gazing out at the city for a moment, then let your eyes shift focus to her faint reflection in the glass. You see a pensiveness on her face, for all that she hides it behind a diplomat's practiced serenity - a worry that could turn to fear, and a fear that could poison all of your efforts towards a good relationship with the White Council if unaddressed.
    -[X] STUNT: You shift purposefully in your chair, drawing Wu Min's attention back to you, and meet her eyes across the library table. "I thank you for the advice in the spirit it was given, but your conclusions are wrong. These things I know, from the angels of the Lord, other forces trustful beyond reproach, and my own understanding that to others would be called Intellectus: This power of mine was made for mortal hands, and mortal hands only, in ages past, so that impossible can be made inevitable; Before I first stepped inside, this world..." and here you look out again to the city for a moment, letting Wu Min see the solemnity with which you view your duties, "...existed in-potentia only, and yet its history is no less true for it. Time as mortals know its flow not applicable to its history before I came here, even if now it is the same as on Earth; it is connected to my power, and to myself in a way more akin to how an arm is connected to the brain than how a conquered realm is connected to its conqueror; it is unlike other realms, hells included, the rules are different here."
    [X] SUTRA investigations with Carlos.
    [x]"I have reason to doubt it's specifically the shadow of a Yama King, but I'm inclined to agree there's something down there and intend to take your advice anyways."
    -[x]Afterwards: SUTRA Investigations with Carlos
 
Arc 10 Post 21: Of Workings Ancient and Present
Of Workings Ancient and Present

11th of December 2006 A.D.

A tale deftly woven and almost in accord with everything she knows, in some ways more charitable than it might have been. It is not hard to guess what the moment of panic might have been. Yet as you join her in gazing out at the city for a moment, then let your eyes shift focus to her faint reflection in the glass. You see a pensiveness on her face, for all that she hides it behind a diplomat's practiced serenity - a worry that could turn to fear, and a fear that could poison all of your efforts towards a good relationship with the White Council if unaddressed.

There is the faintest scraping of the chair across the floor polished almost to a mirror sheen as you shift in it. Of course she would not notice Molly, everyone else can't hear ants skittering in the walls, you remind yourself as you clear your throat. "I thank you for the advice in the spirit it was given, but your conclusions are wrong. These things I know, from the angels of the Lord, other forces trustful beyond reproach, and my own understanding that to others would be called Intellectus: This power of mine was made for mortal hands, and mortal hands only, in ages past, so that impossible can be made inevitable."

The look she gives you is not so much of distrust as disbelief mingled with pity, thus you pause and with a tilt of the head invite her to asnwer.

"Understand I do not mean to speak ill of your faith Ms Carpenter, in truth it and your father's works are among the principal reasons why the council has approved the fact finding mission on such short notice, however it has ever been the hope and often the folly of those dwellers in the Middle Kingdom to believe that a message which comes from up high is the asnwer to all questions. Alas that distance, even if it be the begotten of unmatched virtue often strips an account of its context. Many of the lords of Yomi Wan were once mortal, perhaps all of them were and that is the order of things, that those mortal souls which have achieved enlightenment should look over the mechanisms which bring their wayward fellows back to the path. They would hardly admit it now given the perversions they have become."

"Why are you here though?" you ask, taping a finger on the slate on the table beside you. "The other reason, to learn, to make treaties as the Council has done with many new made realms, but also to trade. Has there ever been an instance of solid substance dredged from the depths of the Nevernever?"

"Three thousand leagues and three thousand leagues again traveled the princess Bari to seek the water of the Western Heavens and thence find the cure for her parents ailments even beyond death," she recites slowly, clearly translating from verse or song. "Rare is the thing found in the spirit world that can be brought to forth beneath one sun and one moon, but such there are and have always been."

In the silence of your thoughts there is a flicker of recognition from Usum for a journey whose echoes passed even into the depths of Kakuri where no hope dwells.

"A treasure of great worth, a power undreamt, salvation unhoped for, yes the tales of mankind are filled with them." You flip over the slate. "This is mass produced, from case to chip to hard drive, to the arcane circuitry that allowed the first sparks of a true SUTRA to dwell within it. To be clear this isn't a suggestion, but how many tales are there, how many accounts of armies out of the Spirit Worlds marching into the realms of common day and then just staying there, needing neither the working of some sorcerer nor the sustenance of their unearthly home?"

She scrutinizes you for a long moment, giving you the uncomfortable feeling of being weighed against an unknown measure. At last she asks. "What do you propose then?"

Having pondered the things you wish to say and those which would be unwise to recount you say at last."I will not deny the correlation you have found for it it plain for all to see, but you have cause and effect inverted. Rather than this being a hell among other hells this these Courts of Brass are the newest shoot of an ancestral stock with the dark master of Yomi Wan ape as Mikaboshi apes progress Ravana piety and on and on thousandfold."

"I do not have the evidence to disprove that," Wu Min speaks slowly, reluctantly. "It is not unfalsifiable either, but it would be quite difficult and perilous to find evidence one way or the other."

"A messenger of Heaven confirmed that it is a thing out of lost ages," you press.

"I do not wish to sound too stern and legalistic—" she pauses to make sure the word is the right one for a moment before continuing—"but that is hearsay. I cannot make a judgement based primarily upon it." Finally Wu Mei gives a small sigh, her smile growing a touch more sympathetic. "I will be sure to present your theory as well Your Majesty and give it proper weight."

With a nod as much of thanks as parting you take your leave. It is getting close to morning in Chicago and you have school.

***​
13th of December 2006 A.D.

Carlos Ramirez you soon learn is not quite as young as you had guessed against the background of Wu Min's polished demeanor, Donald Morgan's grim sense of duty or Harry's general... Harryness, he is three and a half years older than you, enough to be awkward about it when he asks your age and then blush when he notices you noticing. Bet he'd be pretty surprised if he knew I'm —be honest about it Molly— carrying a torch for.

Would Mom be more or less grumpy about a wizard who's twenty?
you wonder, briefly entertaining that old trick about getting a boyfriend who smokes and drives a motorcycle just to get one's parents on board with the one you actually wanted, but no, that feels a little too underhanded... and you have never heard of it working outside a sitcom admittedly.

Personal musings aside whoever had chosen to send him on this mission had a good eye since Carlos has both an interest in science and technology, so keen that he spends several hours reading up on the Ring of Fire and the various alien creatures that call it home.

"I don't think that is quite what your boss had in mind when he told you to study the no-sphere."

"I'm not, aren't I?" he asks, arm slung over the back of the chair in what might just be the most improper posture you can have in a seat meant to adjust itself to one's anatomy. His smile slips a little as you look at him and he sighs. "Look you have actual engineers working on compatibility and programmers, AI programmers working on software. I'm just some guy who used a bit of C99 back before I blew up two PCs inside a month thanks to all the phenomenal cosmic power at my fingertips." With a dramatic motion he makes a somewhat wobbly ball of water coalesce in mid air and tossed it at the cairn-fern in the corner. "I'll be honest here if you wanted to get some magic Trojan past me or something you wouldn't have to try too hard what with you know the whole world working for you. I'm just here so that if something like that does happen the Senior Council knows who to blame."

Your allow the professional facade to crack into a smile and ask...

[] How do did you learn your phenomenal cosmic powers?
But for that moment in Arctis Tor this might have been your fate, if you had been permitted to live at all

[] You don't really like the old guard do you?
Carlos is not on the list, but you imagine there are plenty of non-cosmic evil tensions in an organization as large and far reaching as the White Council, not least inter-generational ones

[] How's the war going?
You are curious if the council learned about Arianna's fate

[] Write in

OOC: Given the way the vote was structured it did not make much sense to ask you 'what next' again, especially since all the things will be done eventually to some degree.
 
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Well, I don't think we revealed too much, and at least this gives them food for thought. Wu Min is quite young it seems, or rather very assured of her conclusions and sources. She's right to doubt us, of course, but I still think it went well.

[X] You don't really like the old guard do you
-[X] Empathy excellency, ATB


In order to neutralize fracture points (or use them), we must first identify them.
 
That's kinda talking is a good way to get stabbed. For all of its power Crown is still limited and even if nothing can hide from it there are ways to work around the information it provides.
Not really. We have consistently outplayed our enemies.
Hell, there are supposed to be Old Ones, incredibly powerful Outsiders or something, incarcerated a couple dimensions to the side. Powerful enough that nothing was able to kill them - that's including Swords and Archangels
They didn't have murder is meat charm or something equivalent. We don't have that problem.
Sharing information with allies is good. Thinking that enemies cannot exploit it, or that Molly will always be able to counteract their plans because she could ask the Crown is folly and hubris. When something as simple as asking a question 5 minutes before an enemy chooses to change his plans is enough to break everything.
Plans require set up. If they are changing their plans than thats a win.
 
or rather very assured of her conclusions and sources.

Well, in this particular case, she doesn't know how direct the answer we got was, nor how informed the source is, but revealing we had a direct conversation with Uriel where we played twenty questions and he answered may be too much to reveal at this point.

She also seems to have misunderstood us saying *of ages past* as *from before recorded history* instead of the full on *not from this age of the universe, or even probably the previous one* it is, and that we got confirmation on, this means that she doesn't understand that the current Yama kings aren't even suspects on the source of it because it predates them by too much.
 
Well, in this particular case, she doesn't know how direct the answer we got was, nor how informed the source is, but revealing we had a direct conversation with Uriel where we played twenty questions and he answered may be too much to reveal at this point.

She also seems to have misunderstood us saying *of ages past* as *from before recorded history* instead of the full on *not from this age of the universe, or even probably the previous one* it is, and that we got confirmation on, this means that she doesn't understand that the current Yama kings aren't even suspects on the source of it because it predates them by too much.

It is not so much that she misunderstood Molly as that she is skeptical of hearsay. If you had failed the roll you would have gotten the polite version of 'citation please', as is you got 'well that is internally consistent at least, I'll present it'. Just because Molly talked to Uriel does not mean she gets all of his credibility.
 
"I do not wish to sound too stern and legalistic—" she pauses to make sure the word is the right one for a moment before continuing—"but that is hearsay. I cannot make a judgement based primarily upon it." Finally Wu Mei gives a small sigh, her smile growing a touch more sympathetic. "I will be sure to present your theory as well Your Majesty and give it proper weight."
It's probably to late to bring this up, but we actually DO have one strong piece of evidence that things are way more fucky than Wu Mei is giving credence: our realm has a STRONG historical record of the pre-Empress era being able to prove to themselves they didn't exist
 
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