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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Earth-Destroyer said:
Again just get VEE give him the path natural merit, and let him spend a few years or so training path magic. Couple of months wait max.
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Even if we had VEE and used it to improve his talent for magic, he'd still be a Sorcerer, the squishiest splat ever.

For combat he'd be better off investing a few year's training into blade and gun.
We could use VEE to get him that merit that allows raising one Attribute to 6.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Even if we had VEE and used it to improve his talent for magic, he'd still be a Sorcerer, the squishiest splat ever.

For combat he'd be better off investing a few year's training into blade and gun.
We could use VEE to get him that merit that allows raising one Attribute to 6.
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I'm not so sure about that.

Purely in terms of leveraging mortal magic I think the best game for lower level talents is alchemy with a dash of enchanting.

That lets you turn money and time into close to on demand power.

As long as they don't have long term health consequences taking a shitload of magic bath salts and making like that chimp from Connecticut with a taste for human faces seems more dangerous than having a single stat at 6.

… or more seriously, taking a lot of buffs that make being a sniper easier and killing supernatural blenders from as far away as possible. Speed booster, dex booster, sensory enhancements, Dresden's notice me not potion for the bystanders, stuff like that.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I'm not so sure about that.

Purely in terms of leveraging mortal magic I think the best game for lower level talents is alchemy with a dash of enchanting.

That lets you turn money and time into close to on demand power.

As long as they don't have long term health consequences taking a shitload of magic bath salts and making like that chimp from Connecticut with a taste for human faces seems more dangerous than having a single stat at 6.

… or more seriously, taking a lot of buffs that make being a sniper easier and killing supernatural blenders from as far away as possible. Speed booster, dex booster, sensory enhancements, Dresden's notice me not potion for the bystanders, stuff like that.
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Enchantment is less relevant when your sister is a god-queen.
Alchemy slightly more, but still not vital.

Having strong base-stats to add enhancements and difficulty-reducers to is in his specific situation more valuable.
 
In terms of ways you have to teach a mortal powerful arcane abilities, your best bet is probably still to awaken their Po. The Demon Arts are stronger than any mortal magic short of full wizardry, though Daniel would have to swear to serve you so as not to suffer the negative effects of having said awakened Po, either than or you just got False Spring Beckon and spammed it on him every three days. You have the essence regen for it.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
Even if we had VEE and used it to improve his talent for magic, he'd still be a Sorcerer, the squishiest splat ever.

For combat he'd be better off investing a few year's training into blade and gun.
We could use VEE to get him that merit that allows raising one Attribute to 6.
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As a mortal he should frankly not be in combat at all. Have him go down path divination, fortune or another one of the utility paths. We are going to be fielding entire teams of specialized path sorcerers in the future anyway.
 
Judging by the vote... It seems we are going for the "John Constantine" route after all. That is to say buffing and bringing someone who can't handle the sort of shit Molly(Exalt), Lydia(Exalt), Michael(Divine Intervention), and Dresden(Protagonist) get involved in but wants to get involved anyway. Then having to account for him when he starts asking to go along in some capacity or worse still, goes off without asking(with Lydia prob) because we refuse to actually address the core issue.

Then if something happens to him or those around him because he can't keep up with the kind of nonsense we've been dealing with and voided his Angel protection.. well it'll all be worth it because we "respected his agency".

Smh.
 
[X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are

Either have him commit to the years of work to get good, or don't.
 
uju32 said:
He's not Charity "Legendary" Carpenter. Intimacies or not.
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That's more of a meme than an argument. The point is, being a close family member does not actually make you easier to convince about something you feel very strongly about, it might actually make you more stubborn. If there actually was a write in vote using Charity and Michael as social backup, then I might have considered it, because that's what I believe it would take.

1)It would endanger your life to no purposes or benefit.
2)You ARE too young. Thats just truth.
3)Michael is out there on a literal mission from God. Acknowledged special case.
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1) Right now, sure, but that's the whole issue. He almost certainly thinks that if he had special powers/equipment then that would mean he could be out there Making A Difference. And given how many predators are out there, it's hard to argue that not even a single one more empowered protector/hunter wouldn't.

2) Objectively true, but useless in actually convincing the target of the argument. Everybody thinks they should be the special exception, because clearly they are mature enough. And cause Molly didn't wait until she was fully 18 before starting to do this, then that argument can be thrown right back at us.

3) Not the point. It's about accepting that you might endanger others, by doing the "Right Thing". Molly's friends got kidnapped, no matter how tough she was. And Michael had no argument against Dresden worrying about hired mundane assassins going after the Knight and his family other than "just have faith". Which is just the standard answer of someone having Faith. Metaphysically, angels likely couldn't interfere then, cause of Free Will.

Basically, you have a lot of good arguments why it's a bad idea form an objective standpoint, but I'm not seeing any that would actually convince Daniel.

uju32 said:
He's our brother, not our subject. We cant give him orders the way we do Isabella.
And if we are unwilling to even discuss his motivations and dissuade him of them, we are almost certainly unwilling to talk to him about what he should and should not do.
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If we actively help empower him, then he is far more likely to listen to us, than if he ends up needing to go behind our backs. That's one of the main reasons I'm for doing it ourselves. For damage control, while we still have the chance.

Like you said, we can't give orders to him. Or Lydia. So exactly what's stopping them from going forward with some method without our input, and so damage our relationship with both of them? While ending up with an empowered Daniel anyway, and one who is likely to be resentful of us, not grateful, so not in a mood to listen?
 
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Iron Roby said:
Basically, you have a lot of good arguments why it's a bad idea form an objective standpoint, but I'm not seeing any that would actually convince Daniel.
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Iron Roby said:
Like you said, we can't give orders to him. Or Lydia. So exactly what's stopping them from going forward with some method without our input, and so damage our relationship with both of them? While ending up with an empowered Daniel anyway, and one who is likely to be resentful of us, not grateful, so not in a mood to listen?
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I think your assuming Daniel is less rational than he actually is, that he can't step back and look at his situation from an objective stand point to see the bigger picture for one. That being said he doesn't have much characterization yet so there isn't much to go off of besides canon and his interlude. Canon would dictiate that he is capable of that but again this isn't canon.
 
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People are saying that Daniel would be at particular risk because of who his family is. That is true. It's also already happened. Being Molly's brother put him in harm's way in Proven Guilty, when this quest started, and he ended up hurt because he wasn't going to stand down or step aside in the circumstances.

I'm of the opinion that, whether he more actively joins the conflicts of the magical world or not, he should be trained and equipped to be able to defend himself and others next time he smacks in to it anyway. It's not like his social circle of close people he cares about has made his life less risky since then.

Edit: Out of harm's way isn't really an option for him, and pretending like it is is just asking for something terrible to happen.
 
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Anaja said:
I'm of the opinion that, whether he more actively joins the conflicts of the magical world or not, he should be trained and equipped to be able to defend himself and others next time he smacks in to it anyway
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The problem is he's not likely to stop at defending people. Once he has what he trained, sweat, and bled for he's going to want to proactively use that power. It's pretty much guarenteed as his insecurity seems to be the core issue here.

We were planning on crafting him defense items anyway.
 
Telling Daniel that *it's too dangerous given who his father is* is going to get us a raised eyebrow as an answer, pretty sure, that's not a good argument, he can already be used as leverage, or did you forget why Harry got a denarian in his head? Hint: it involved someone trying to use Michael's family as leverage.

Daniel himself got hurt protecting his family right before this quest began, as was pointed out, and Charity, a baseline human participated in the rescue in the middle of winter's territory.

You're not going to convince him using that, not without destroying our relationship with him at least, and the one we have with Lydia due to obvious reasons.

Edit:

Also Murphy for the rescue, by the way.
 
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Welp, it's been 24 hours. Vote closed, looks like Molly is (which some doubts) going to help.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 27, 2023 at 10:40 AM, finished with 127 posts and 28 votes.
  • [X] Plan Designing Greatness
    -[X] Offer to help
    --[X] You yourself are growing. You have a feeling that you can develop a power to design miraculous objects - magical items straight from fantasy books. When you do, you will make him something to allow him to grasp the power he so wants. Not necessary a crutch, but something to allow him to gain power of his own.
    ---[X] Work together with him to work out what exactly is that he wants in terms of power. You make no promises of being able to make exactly that, but it's good to know what sort of ability he strives for.
    ----[X] Empathy excellency
    ----[X] Stunt: You sit down with Daniel, and dump a load of D&D books, and other media, such as superhero comics, on the table, a fresh character sheet in front of you. Thrusting a cup of cocoa in front of him, you open the first one: "So, let's design who you want to be, shall we?"
    -[X] Offer training
    --[X] You now have access to trainers and masters of their arts unknown on Earth. If he is willing, you can arrange for him to be trained in the Courts over vacations at least.
    ---[X] Christmas vacation is coming up soon and he'll have two weeks off from school. Some of that will need to be spent with the family and Lydia, of course, but we can arrange for him to visit our realm for 9 or 10 days (assuming our parents consent). While there, he'll be trained (i.e. worked into the ground) in FCF combat, weaponry, technology, etc., and sorcery if he proves capable.
    ---[X] This is only an introduction, however, a chance for him to get his feet wet and an opportunity no one else from Earth has benefited from so far. If he does well and impresses his instructors, we can make further arrangements for him to visit on the weekends, culminating in a more rigorous course over the upcoming Summer.
    [X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are
    [X] Make Daniel an Offer He Shouldn't Refuse
    -[X] Christmas vacation is coming up soon and he'll have two weeks off from school. Some of that will need to be spent with the family and Lydia, of course, but we can arrange for him to visit our realm for 9 or 10 days (assuming our parents consent). While there, he'll be trained (i.e. worked into the ground) in FCF combat, weaponry, technology, etc., and sorcery if he proves capable.
    -[X] This is only an introduction, however, a chance for him to get his feet wet and an opportunity no one else from Earth has benefited from so far. If he does well and impresses his instructors, we can make further arrangements for him to visit on the weekends, culminating in a more rigorous course over the upcoming Summer.
    -[X] Stunt (insert maximum Exalted social fuckery here): You look your baby brother up and down with a critical eye. He's still a scrawny kid, but not nearly so much as a year ago, or even before you received your Exaltations. "You want to be more, do more. I get it, believe me. Do you want to survive, too? Live a long, happy life, one where you outlive mom and dad rather than forcing them to bury their eldest son?" You pause, but not quite long enough to give him the opportunity to interject. "I can help you, but if you want that help you've got to do it right. I've got resources you can hardly imagine, and I'll make them available to you. Be patient, put in the work, and let's see what happens. What do you say?"
    [x] Invite Daniel to take a trip in your world you need some help exploring the place.
    [X] Make Daniel an Offer He Shouldn't Refuse
    [x]Null
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Arc 9 Post 35: A Matter of Character
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    • A Matter of Character ​

    24nd of November 2006 A.D

    There are a lot of reasons why Daniel should not get mixed up in the unseen world, enough to write a litany or a whole rap song about: it would be putting himself in danger, it would be putting others in danger, he's too young, he hasn't thought about it enough. All have the solid weight of truth to them and all the air of hypocrisy. He's sixteen, you are eighteen, he wants to impress his girlfriend, you have a crush on someone more than two decades your senior and, being honest with yourself, if you thought riding out and slaying proverbial dragons would impress him you would look into the rules for dragon slaying. Are all your brother's reasons good? No. Most of them? Yeah.

    As you catch up with him at the bus-stop, helping an old lady get her bags on board it is hard to miss the thing you've known all your life, Daniel is a good guy. He had gotten more than his looks from dad and he had gotten more than his singing voice and his tolerance for spicy foods from mom that's for sure. Willful, sure that was a nice word for it, he like the rest of you did not lack for... willpower so sure you might be able to sway him from his path for a while, but changing his mind, that would be a taller ask even if you were minded to. And you are not... mostly not at least.

    "Hey Usum, feel free to advise," you think at him as Black Rider slows to a stop.

    "Mortal lives are fleeting things, better that they be spent on grand endeavors, even should they fail than petty actions soon forgotten," the demon replies.

    Not a helpful thought, not in the least.

    "I know, that is why I did not volunteer the thought," the demon replies with a softness to his tone. Sympathy maybe?

    "Hey Dani-boy, get in," you call.

    "I told you not to call me that," he whispers crankily. Looks like you've still got it.

    "When you were in first grade," you nod in sage agreement. "Not your cleverest moment, it just made me use it for two more years."

    He rolls his eyes, but the corners of his mouth twitch. The expression changes to confusion when he spots the stacks of books on the other side of the back seat: sourcebooks for D&D, Call of Cthulhu, Mutants and Masterminds as well as a bunch of comic books, DC and Marvel for the most part, but there are a few of the Sandman ones in there. "What's all this?"

    "Oh," you make an obvious show of superposed forgetfulness. "Silly me I forgot to give you this." You hand him a blank sheet of paper and a pan. "Now we can start making your character sheet."

    "That is ridiculous..." he starts, but you cut him off, allowing just a little of the frustration you felt when you found out about certain not-quite plans to bleed though:

    "No what is ridiculous is you contemplating going on a quest into the depths of the Spirit Realm like you are some iron age tribal chief's least favored kid. If you are going to do this, if you are going to get involved in the big dark world out there you have to use everything to hand, you have to cheat, because you can bet your life all the monsters are cheating. In fact that is exactly what you would be doing."

    To tell the truth if he had fired back some quip you might have turned the conversation and the car right around and explained some stuff to mom and dad, but he does not. Instead he goes quiet, creasing the edges of the paper. "I can't do as much as you can, as much as Lydia can or dad... well that is stupid to even compare myself isn't it, but I can do more than most people. Most people do not even know what's out there until it's too late. More than enough furrows for even the likes of me to till."

    "You know it's not furrows you're going to be putting in the ground if you do this, it's bodies. A lot of those bodies are going to look like people, heck most of them are going to be people, bad people sure, but you are still going to have to live with it. I have a demon in my head handing out advice, Lydia has a close personal relationship with death. We are not... ordinary." The mark on your brow glows like poisoned embers.

    He just looks at you for a moment, head tipped to the side. "Have I been an asshole?"

    It takes a moment to underhand what he means, to read the guilt on his face, wondering if he had missed the signs and failed to be there for you.

    "I'm fine, not just saying that," you assure your brother. "It's been rough the last few weeks, but not because of that. If anything it is about leaving someone alive but that is beside the point now."

    "Sure," he says dubiously, but knows you enough not to push.

    "If you still want to try this I do have a better idea that charging off into the spirit world on a half-baked quest. Come the holidays you can visit my place, my world. It has magic, tools you won't be able to find anywhere else. Instructors in arts martial and magical. If you find something that works for you we can take it from there. Sounds fair?"

    "Fair," he nods firmly, then glances back at the pile of books. "Can I keep this stuff?"

    If the laughter you burst into has more to do with relief than humor it's not like anyone would notice.

    What do you want to do next?

    [] Negotiate fealty with Porter

    [] Catch up with Lydia

    [] Write in

    OOC: Molly did not need nearly as many successes as she got for this talk since she was already giving Daniel what he wants so the rest of it went to some sibling bonding instead.
     
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    • Yog said:
    This is deceptive, and you know it. I would hardly call United Kingdom, or Singapore "third world" in the connotation you were using. If we expand that to 17, we also get countries like Norway, Netherlands, Israel, Germany.
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    You are being deceptive.
    At no point did I call the UK a third world country, just that even third world countries use 18 as a cutoff. Its still of note that Britain is literally the ONLY European country, 1 in 50 nationstates, that recruits 16 year olds into the military.

    Even the French Foreign Legion, which is famously liberal about that sort of thing, wont accept you if you are below 17.5 years of age at the day of enlistment.


    17 is not 16.
    A 16 year old boy often hasnt even finished physical growth, let alone the maturity to operate in this arena. The fact that we are having this discussion because of his insecurities is prima facie evidence that he lacks the maturity to make this kind of determination.


    Yog said:
    He successfully retired in canon. Hell, Michael successfully retired in canon. It very much isn't a lifetime commitment you are making it out to be.

    We should make sure he understands what he is signing up for, at least as much as we understand it, but it is not up to us to stop him from committing. And I am fairly sure that he already knows - all that occult training with Lydia has to pay off at least somewhat.
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    No, he didnt. All we know is that he reenlisted with the military and his job took him out of Chicago for the moment.

    Michael got called off the bench in Skin Game, for the operation that ended up fucking over Nicodemus. Both he and Charity were called back up to train Butters after he was chosen as Fidelacchius' wielder. He was explicitly a target in Battle Grounds; Ethniu takes the time to send a killteam to wipe the family out along with Maggie.

    Nobody retires. They wont let you.

    Anaja said:
    People are saying that Daniel would be at particular risk because of who his family is. That is true. It's also already happened. Being Molly's brother put him in harm's way in Proven Guilty, when this quest started, and he ended up hurt because he wasn't going to stand down or step aside in the circumstances.

    I'm of the opinion that, whether he more actively joins the conflicts of the magical world or not, he should be trained and equipped to be able to defend himself and others next time he smacks in to it anyway. It's not like his social circle of close people he cares about has made his life less risky since then.

    Edit: Out of harm's way isn't really an option for him, and pretending like it is is just asking for something terrible to happen.
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    No thats not actually true.

    Go back and look at the string of coincidences that has always shown up when the Carpenter family are at mortal risk from mortals. When the Nightmare went after Charity outside her home, Michael and Harry coincidentally showed up in time to intervene. When Molly was at trial, he father shows up with enough missing jurors to swing the results.

    When the rogue priest came after them, Uriel explicitly maneuvers Dresden into position to intervene.

    When Nicodemus attacks their home, a Knight is chosen in exactly the right position to shatter his forces and make him flee.
    The family has a full-service warranty while they are out of things.
    Dresden even notes it.



    There's a difference between being trained and equipped for self-defense, and trying to run the streets.
    For American voters? Its the difference between getting a shotgun for home defence, and joining one of those militias out there that run around in the field waving their guns around.

    We were always going to get him self-defence shit. Thats not what this is about.
    He wants to play in a field where he cant even perceive the threats, they are so large. This is something you talk the person out of until they are older and have the life experience to make an informed choice, not hand them a gun and cheerlead.

    Iron Roby said:
    That's more of a meme than an argument. The point is, being a close family member does not actually make you easier to convince about something you feel very strongly about, it might actually make you more stubborn. If there actually was a write in vote using Charity and Michael as social backup, then I might have considered it, because that's what I believe it would take.
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    Its not a meme.

    Charity is an experienced adult who has bona fide sky high Willpower in the 8-9 dot range, which is reinforced by her intimacies.
    Daniel is a normal 16 year old teenager with no real life experience. Under no circumstances does he rate anything like that.
    I would be surprised if he had more than Willpower 4.

    Iron Roby said:
    1) Right now, sure, but that's the whole issue. He almost certainly thinks that if he had special powers/equipment then that would mean he could be out there Making A Difference. And given how many predators are out there, it's hard to argue that not even a single one more empowered protector/hunter wouldn't.

    2) Objectively true, but useless in actually convincing the target of the argument. Everybody thinks they should be the special exception, because clearly they are mature enough. And cause Molly didn't wait until she was fully 18 before starting to do this, then that argument can be thrown right back at us.

    3) Not the point. It's about accepting that you might endanger others, by doing the "Right Thing". Molly's friends got kidnapped, no matter how tough she was. And Michael had no argument against Dresden worrying about hired mundane assassins going after the Knight and his family other than "just have faith". Which is just the standard answer of someone having Faith. Metaphysically, angels likely couldn't interfere then, cause of Free Will.

    Basically, you have a lot of good arguments why it's a bad idea form an objective standpoint, but I'm not seeing any that would actually convince Daniel.
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    1)Thats where its our duty to talk him out of it. We are a social Exalt. Thats pretty much up our alley.

    2)Again, literally our job to talk him out of it.
    Not to metaphorically buy a kid a handgun because he has confidence issues.

    3) Michael didnt because he has Faith.
    It wasnt a coincidence in canon that when Molly was due to be executed for black magic was when Michael coincidentally showed up with three Senior Council wizards that he'd just rescued from Outsiders.

    The angels only directly intervene with supernatural threats, but the warranty coverage over the family is rather more expansive than just that.

    Iron Roby said:
    If we actively help empower him, then he is far more likely to listen to us, than if he ends up needing to go behind our backs. That's one of the main reasons I'm for doing it ourselves. For damage control, while we still have the chance.

    Like you said, we can't give orders to him. Or Lydia. So exactly what's stopping them from going forward with some method without our input, and so damage our relationship with both of them? While ending up with an empowered Daniel anyway, and one who is likely to be resentful of us, not grateful, so not in a mood to listen?
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    I grew up in a large enough family to doubt that. Very much.


    Lydia does not have the expertise to do anything of the sort. Occult 1, no summoning or binding, no Contacts, potentially hostile interactions with Winter. After Corpsetaker almost ate her soul, and she then saw the 10 year old who made a deal with a bane, she isnt about to go stumbling into the NeverNever and making deals with random spirits either.

    And her Mentor 1 is her father, who is going to literally scream in her ear about why you should do no such thing.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    To tell the truth if he had fired back some quip you might have turned the conversation and the car right around and explained some stuff to mom and dad, but he does not.
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    I think we should bring Mom and Dad in on this before we actually do anything. They should be aware of what's going on, and what Daniel's goals and desires are. Minimizing secrets and circumventions in a family is good, and I think it'd be better for him psychologically if he could do,this with the feeling that his parents have his back in it.

    I don't expect to see them cheering on the idea of him actively involving himself in fighting the darkness like that, but I think a convincing case can be made for training and equipping him. The danger is real, and it has come to our home and hurt him before. Also, he might still be a child for the moment, but he's close to adulthood. It's just around the corner, and if he is still intent on these choices come that time, then best that he be as ready as possible.
     
    Anaja said:
    I think we should bring Mom and Dad in on this before we actually do anything. They should be aware of what's going on, and what Daniel's goals and desires are. Minimizing secrets and circumventions in a family is good, and I think it'd be better for him psychologically if he could do,this with the feeling that his parents have his back in it.

    I don't expect to see them cheering on the idea of him actively involving himself in fighting the darkness like that, but I think a convincing case can be made for training and equipping him. The danger is real, and it has come to our home and hurt him before. Also, he might still be a child for the moment, but he's close to adulthood. It's just around the corner, and if he is still intent on these choices come that time, then best that he be as ready as possible.
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    Keep in mind that he would be waving well... this:

    Blessing of the Innocent (3 dots of Blessing):
    As long as the character does not willingly interact with the supernatural world he is to degree protected from it. The monsters out there have a hard time noticing, targeting or manipulating him.
    This benefit is usually narrative, though in some cases it might express itself as a 3-dice bonus to his attempts to hide, run or survive against supernatural beings that he did not provoke.

    Charity and Michael may not be able to read sheets, but they do know this protections exists and its broad limits
     
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    Porter's sense of time is different from ours. If we delay talking with him for a day or two, he won't even notice.

    [X] Catch up with Lydia
     
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