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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Modus_Tollens said:
[X] Plan Designing Greatness

It would be supremely hypocritical to deny him this. We have made a great many mistakes, we have grasped for thing that have burned us when people who know better were telling us to go home and be a teenager, and I'm not sure the English language has the words to describe the level of hubris in our actions. We're planning on pulling a Denarian out of Harry and making the woman his literal, rather than metaphorical, roommate and we have a Naaglioshii that is kinda-sorta our friend right now.

Shit, man, we're not in a position to tell somebody off for playing Icarus. We did it even before we got our Exaltation, back before McCoy declared that we weren't human enough to execute. If somebody wants to do something patently unwise all we have a right to do is ensure that they go into it eyes open and then do our damnedest to make sure Icarus keeps his wings on this time. We'll bring gorilla glue and flextape.

This is what humans do. Even when we know best, we can't just act like we know best.

Our best bet is to give him something but to do so slowly enough, arduously enough, that he doesn't go into power-fantasy-mode and fatally lose a fight with a windmill. Training from hell can instill maturity and caution, hopefully, before maturity and caution are necessary for survival. Something that can be built upon but which isn't just handing the kid a loaded gun that any idiot can use, something that intentionally takes work but which has enough promise that he wants to keep working.
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1) No it isnt. And your characterization of Molly's history is inaccurate.
Molly's arguments with Charity were never over magic, or violence. She or her friends dabbled in drugs, got caught, she apologized, Charity still tried to cut her off from her friends, and she left home in response.


2) No we did not.
Molly literally only used her power in extremis to help her friends, and she had to be duped by an enemy agent into doing so how she did. She didnt show up at Dresden's place volunteering to go fight Red Court vampires or Denarians.


3)No, our best bet is to actually talk to the kid and try and talk shit out.
Training from hell does not instill maturity as any military recruit will tell you; if it did, Hell Week would regularly make the US SEALs the most mature, most professional group of soldiers the US has, instead of the shitshow that came out of the War on Terror.

The average age of the US military recruit circa 2000 was 18-19, and six plus months of Basic and AIT sure doesnt make them mature either.


I dont strictly have an issue with training him for self-defence.
Or giving him gear for self-defence. I have an issue with him trying to get involved in this war at his age.

The kid is 16. He's a high school sophomore.
He didnt stumble/wasnt nudged into cosmic power like Molly, nor was he born into it like Lydia; he has no special claim to competence in this field. And he's a target due to who he was born to.

He should grow up before even thinking of this.
I would still oppose it, but he'd at least have enough life experience to make an informed choice. Instead of trying to play out teenage fantasies in an arena where shit gets very real and there are no takebacks.

Literally the only people in the setting who have recruited people that young or younger were Winter and the Denarians.
And Winter at least was sending its recruits off to training camp, not to put them in the field.

Iron Roby said:
The rational thing would be for Daniel to stay as a supporting mundane, but the thing is... I don't think we can convince him of that at this point. At least without resorting to borderline-mind-control Exalted social combat. And while I don't think refusing to empower him would be "violating his agency", that would.
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We literally talked a naagloshii around this month.
If we want to talk Daniel around, we can do so. And since we routinely use Excellencies in our conversations with family, I fail to see where the agency argument is coming from.

Iron Roby said:
And it's important to remember, that we aren't the only game in town. Dresdenvere is full of entities happy to tempt with power, especially a Knight's son. Best case, he will just convince Lydia to act without our approval. Worse case, he will find it somewhere darker.
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This is not true. We know its not true because we saw Daniel grow up in canon as Michael's son and Molly's brother.
All through Michael's career, he didnt seek occult power. Even in Ghost Story, when Michael was crippled and Molly was on the run and he was volunteering with the Chicago Alliance, he didnt do this.

The Carpenters raised him better than that.

Even Molly when she was on the run with the Sword of Damocles over her head didnt do deals with dark powers.
Its been hammered into their heads that shit aint free, and they've seen the results of it in the people Michael hunts.
And it stuck.



Furthermore?
I have serious issues with the argument that the solution to someone being willing to traffic with dark powers is to make them more powerful, instead of actually addressing the personality issues that make them want said power in the first place.

An AU Daniel who was has lived through shit like Shiro's murder but is still willing to go bargain with that type of entity?
Would be someone we would probably have to kill.
 
[X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are
 
uju32 said:
We literally talked a naagloshii around this month.
If we want to talk Daniel around, we can do so.
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Could we have convinced Broken Seeker to immediately redeem himself? We couldn't even always convince our own mother to give us more space.

If what we are trying to convince someone of is unacceptable to them, it can and will still fail.

This is not true. We know its not true because we saw Daniel grow up in canon as Michael's son and Molly's brother.
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Canon didn't have awesome seemingly-consequence-free power just drop at his sister's lap (Sword of Damocles was not exactly a fun and exiting superhero adventure), allowing her to basically become Wonder Woman, and immediately start saving people and turning the world into a better place. His sister, only 2-3 years older.

Canon didn't have Lydia. And a lot of those things happened at a later point, when Daniel had had time to mature. Not when he is just 16. Not all at once.

And I didn't mean Denarians. I meant Fae, spirits and especially whatever Lydia might find.

Furthermore?
I have serious issues with the argument that the solution to someone being willing to traffic with dark powers is to make them more powerful, instead of actually addressing the personality issues that make them want said power in the first place.
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You are seriously overthinking of what is basically a teenager feeling powerless and insecure. To which there is no cure or counterargument, except maturity that comes with time. Someone in Daniel's position would not be "revealing their true dark power-hungry nature" or something. They would just be a teenager making a stupid mistake.

You know, just like Molly and black mind control magic.
 
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I don't think enabling this sort of idiotic behavior is a good idea in the long run. If he becomes an active player he looses his "family of a Knight of the Cross" brand of protection. Real life isn't an anime, increasing his threat profile isn't the move here it will just make him a more noticeable target. He does need some items for self defense though, the entire family could use those.

He's also 16 the only reason why he is seriously considering this right now when he didn't in canon is because of Lydia and her warped perception as described by DragonParadox. I mean she doesn't even seem to see much of an issue with him going off to attian power when it could very easily backfire horribly.

I think what we need to do is properly explain how much bigger of a target he is now, (even if it would sound weird explaining that being her brother now makes him a much bigger political target than being his father's son ever could), without making it sound like we are coddling him.

Then explain that we will be giving him some items of power purely for defensive purposes and make a promise of some sort stating that if he wants to become stronger in the future (with everything that comes with it) we'd be willing to help.

[x] uju32

This vote could use some work but it's the closest to what I want soo...
 
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The reasons I'm concerned about being able to convince Daniel. Let's look at what he probably wants:

1) To help his father and sister with the "family business". To protect them, to be involved, as an active part of it.
2) To not be "left behind" by Lydia.
3) To generally "do the right thing" by helping people in an active role, which would also satisfy his developing sense of masculinity - basically, by being a superhero like his father and sister.

The reason I worry, is that those all sound like potential intimacies. And what would be our counterarguments:

1) "It would endanger your life" - low value argument for someone with Michael as a role model.
2) "You are too young" - an excuse for imposing a rule, not an argument that actually ever convinces its target.
3) "You will endanger others as a potential hostage" - probably the best argument, but still faulty, because:

a) It doesn't fundamentally solve Daniel's issues, only makes him feel guilty for wanting what he does.
b) Technically, both Michael and Molly both choose to continue potentially endangering their loved ones. Angels don't protect against potential mundane assassins, and Molly's friends just got kidnapped because of her.
 
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[X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are

This vote wouldn't delegate him into muggle role for eternity. We would have opportunities to make him into cyborg from hell later.
 
If we help him to train and prepare himself now, then it doesn't mean that we have to throw him out on a battlefield tomorrow.
 
Iron Roby said:
Could we have convinced Broken Seeker to immediately redeem himself? We couldn't even always convince our own mother to give us more space.
If what we are trying to convince someone of is unacceptable to them, it can and will still fail.
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Broken Seeker was an antagonist hired to kill us. Daniel is our brother.

All we were interested in with Seeker was stopping him from hurting our friends, and turning him against his employer.
We succeeded at our primary goals.
Daniel is a much easier person to talk to by comparison.
Iron Roby said:
Canon didn't have awesome seemingly-consequence-free power just drop at his sister's lap (Sword of Damocles was not exactly a fun and exiting superhero adventure), allowing her to basically become Wonder Woman, and immediately start saving people and turning the world into a better place. His sister, only 2-3 years older.

Canon didn't have Lydia. And a lot of those things happened at a later point, when Daniel had had time to mature. Not when he is just 16. Not all at once.
And I didn't mean Denarians. I meant Fae, spirits and especially whatever Lydia might find.
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1) They are not seemingly consequence free.

He was there when his sister was kidnapped to Arctis Tor. He saw Lydia after she was rescued from an attacking ghost, saw his father return home bleeding and incapacitated as a consequence, and is aware Lydia's father had to cripple himself to survive.
He was around for the aftermath of a Yama King, a ruler of Hell, sending a war party to kill his sister because of this power.

Daniel KNOWS all this; what Molly didnt tell him directly, Lydia did. Its not news to him.


2) Like I pointed out, the vast majority of the formative incidents happened before June of 2006.
He's a hormonal teenager, but he's 16.
Lydia's presence doesnt simply negate 16 years of previous lived experience, or the example of the adults in his life.


3)The girl who he is dating, Lydia, literally had her father arrange to have someone cut his own throat and cripple him in order to attempt to pay enough of the debt that he owes Winter to make Mab prioritise other things for the moment.
This happened barely a couple weeks after corrupt Winter Fae kidnapped his own sister.

All this was less than six months ago. That kind of lesson sticks.

Iron Roby said:
You are seriously overthinking of what is basically a teenager feeling powerless and insecure. To which there is no cure or counterargument, except maturity that comes with time. Someone in Daniel's position would not be "revealing their true dark power-hungry nature" or something. They would just be a teenager making a stupid mistake.

You know, just like Molly and black mind control magic.
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1)If anything, you are underthinking what it takes for a teenager to knowingly seek out the sort of dark powers in the Dresdenverse who will hand out powers to teenage children of Knights just for the asking.
And what prices they will charge in return.

Thats why I dismiss out of hand suggestions that he's suddenly going to start sniffing around for deals.
He knows better, even as a teenager. We just need to remind him of them.



2)Your comparison is not applicable.

Molly did not know about the Laws.
She did not know that mind control, no matter how benign the intent, was illegal, let alone that it was punishable by death.
Hence Sandra Marling manipulating her into breaking them.

Daniel, on the other hand, like the other Carpenter children, has been extensively drilled on the consequences of deals and the type of people who do shifty magic deals. He would have been 11-ish when the Nightmare kidnapped his mother when she was pregnant with Harry Junior. Maybe 13 when the Denarians torture-murdered Shiro and Father Vincent to death.

And its less than six months since corrupted Fae kidnapped Molly from the Carpenter household in his presence.
The Carpenter children, as a family, have even been warned about the Coins, and even know the names of the Fallen in this AU.
He knows what making deals with shady sorts entails.

These are not comparable circumstances.
 
BronzeTongue said:
If my brother lost an arm and leg and then asked me to help him make it to the Paralympics I'd do what I could to support his training. If he came to me asking for assistance loopholing his way into the infantry I'd try to talk him into doing something else.
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Except here we are able to regrow his arm and leg, and even make them better than the originals.

That why I say denying him based on his current frailness is agency denying, because we can change that, because treating him like a mushroom is not something I want.

Also, in him being 16: so is Lydia, that argument isn't convincing when it can be dismissed as a valid reason just by looking at his girlfriend.

BoredMan said:
He's also 16
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Look just above in my post.

Anaja said:
If we help him to train and prepare himself now, then it doesn't mean that we have to throw him out on a battlefield tomorrow.
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That too, voting to train him is actually a more effective way to keep him off the battlefield, by simple virtue of not risking us failing and him deciding to go behind our back, it also increases his chances of survival when (not if, when) he ends up fighting for one reason or another.
 
Iron Roby said:
The reasons I'm concerned about being able to convince Daniel. Let's look at what he probably wants:

1) To help his father and sister with the "family business". To protect them, to be involved, as an active part of it.
2) To not be "left behind" by Lydia.
3) To generally "do the right thing" by helping people in an active role, which would also satisfy his developing sense of masculinity - basically, by being a superhero like his father and sister.

The reason I worry, is that those all sound like potential intimacies. And what would be our counterarguments:
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He's not Charity "Legendary" Carpenter. Intimacies or not.
And this is one of the occasions where we would legitimately be able to call on both Charity and Michael as social backup.
Assuming they are necessary, which isnt obviously the case.

Iron Roby said:
1) "It would endanger your life" - low value argument for someone with Michael as a role model.
2) "You are too young" - an excuse for imposing a rule, not an argument that actually ever convinces its target.
3) "You will endanger others as a potential hostage" - probably the best argument, but still faulty, because:

a) It doesn't fundamentally solve Daniel's issues, only makes him feel guilty for wanting what he does.
b) Technically, both Michael and Molly both choose to continue potentially endangering their loved ones. Angels don't protect against potential mundane assassins, and Molly's friends just got kidnapped because of her.
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1)It would endanger your life to no purposes or benefit.
He doesnt contribute any special benefit that warrants his being out on the frontlines. Molly herself didnt get to roll there until she Exalted, and Michael is fine because he literally talked to agents of Heaven on the subject.


2)You ARE too young. Thats just truth.

There's a lot of mundane shit he isnt allowed because of age; he cant carry a handgun until he's 21, or a bladed weapon longer than two point five inches, or a taser, or pepper spray, or any number of weapons, or drive at night after 10pm.
And there is a curfew for minors on weekdays anyway.

This isnt the Wild West; human laws and law enforcement is something to always take into account.
Especially in Chicago, where the CPD has an institutional reputation.


3)Michael is out there on a literal mission from God. Acknowledged special case.
And we know, from the angel's mouth, that Uriel and his colleagues take a personal interest in the welfare of his children and family.
Even when it seems noone is there.

Molly is tough enough that people are literally safer with her in the vicinity; she tanked a magazine of assault fire to the chest on her first outing with Michael, and she's only gotten tankier and more powerful since.
And she is able to now call on a literal army of military-trained supernaturals as personal backup.


You cannot simultaneously baby his feelings and put him in an active role in the field as a soldier.
The hard fact is that he, and most of humanity, are squishier than most of the potential supernatural opposition even 1v1, let alone when at a numerical disadvantage.

Even wizards acknowledge this and work around this to leverage their strengths.

That wont change even with an empowerment; he's not going to be a Terrestrial Exalt-equivalent, let alone a Celestial like Molly.
If he isnt old enough to assimilate those truths, he has no business carrying a weapon or lethal magical power.
Because his pride will get not just himself, but other people killed.


Part of the issue is probably that he doesnt actually have an appreciation for just what the family business entails.

He's never seen Dresden throw down.
He's never seen Michael fight for real. He wasnt present for Molly and Michael sparring.
He's never seen Molly go all out, or enter shintai.

Even what he knows about Lydia's combat abilities are at secondhand.

Popping shintai when we go to Sanctuary might serve a useful purpose for giving him a gut check.
For giving the whole family that, actually; even though Charity has seen her in full Demon Empress mode when she went recruiting the ghouls, I think Michael is the only one who has seen her in shintai.
 
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Anaja said:
If we help him to train and prepare himself now, then it doesn't mean that we have to throw him out on a battlefield tomorrow.
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He's our brother, not our subject. We cant give him orders the way we do Isabella.
And if we are unwilling to even discuss his motivations and dissuade him of them, we are almost certainly unwilling to talk to him about what he should and should not do.

He sure as hell isnt going to be trained and then sit down at home unless someone has specifically discussed and convinced him why he should be keeping a low profile.

I will reiterate:
Daniel already goes to a gym/dojo for physical training; thats where he met Lydia.
He isnt looking for more mundane training.
 
Ok, so, let's address this:
1) The age issue. He's 16. 16 is not 12 or even 14. At 16 many people around the world (not USA in most states, yes, but the world) join the workforce (end of compulsory education in France, Germany, Italy, Russia and many others is 16), or enlist into the army (Canada and Britain with parental consent, if we are not using Bangladesh and the like). He has shown maturity in recognizing he has issues, and trying to work on them. His solution is "work to acquire power not to be left behind" instead of "make peace with being a lowly mortal", but that's a choice worthy of respect.

2) The "he doesn't understand what he is asking for". Maybe. So what? People can, in fact, retire from the good fight. Let him try.

3) The "it's better to use resources on someone else" argument (not sure it was made, but it's there). It's not. We can trust Daniel implicitely, his power levels don't matter - we can compensate for those. And, from the utilitarian perspective, it strengthens our connection to Lydia.
 
1)16 is a minor in the US. They cant sign a binding legal contract for non-essential items.
Even in the third world 16 is a minor in most places, and you cannot enlist in the military; your list shows fewer than 12 countries out of more than 150 will allow even conditional enlistment of 16 year olds into military training.

Minors outside of the US are expected to handle more responsibility, but they are still minors.
Noone willingly sends them to fight, or considers them competent to handle their own affairs in the normal course of affairs.


2) No, you're mistaken.
This is a lifetime commitment. The door swings one way in the life.

Its like the Mafia, or intelligence work; nobody who signs up ever really retires.
Father Vincent and Father Forthill were both vampire hunters in their youth. They've never shook that; Vincent was in service until the Denarians killed him, and Forthill is still an Inquisitor with the Ordo Malleus even if he doesnt advertise it.

Shiro died on the job, literally; he had pancreatic cancer, and used his death to cockblock Nicodemus.
Even Michael, who was physically crippled and gave up his Sword after Small Favor? Has been called off the bench multiple times since, both to train a new Knight and to go on critical missions.

And the most blatant attacks on the Carpenter family happened after his retirement using mortals and once-mortals as agents; the renegade priest kidnapping Leech and putting a bomb on her as a hostage, Nicodemus attempting to murder his wife. Ethniu sending a kill team to wipe out his family and Maggie.

Just because you think you are out doesnt mean everyone else agrees with you.
There's a reason the Carpenter family got individual permanent angelic details in canon, even with their limitations with regards to direct intervention against indirect supernatural and mundane attack.

The opposition does not respect such declarations anyway.

3) Nobody has made that argument yet.
 
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uju32 said:
Even in the third world 16 is a minor in most places, and you cannot enlist in the military; your list shows fewer than 12 countries out of more than 150 will allow even conditional enlistment of 16 year olds into military training.
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This is deceptive, and you know it. I would hardly call United Kingdom, or Singapore "third world" in the connotation you were using. If we expand that to 17, we also get countries like Norway, Netherlands, Israel, Germany.
uju32 said:
2) No, you're mistaken.
This is a lifetime commitment. The door swings one way in the life.
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He successfully retired in canon. Hell, Michael successfully retired in canon. It very much isn't a lifetime commitment you are making it out to be.

We should make sure he understands what he is signing up for, at least as much as we understand it, but it is not up to us to stop him from committing. And I am fairly sure that he already knows - all that occult training with Lydia has to pay off at least somewhat.
 
Nyarky said:
Except here we are able to regrow his arm and leg, and even make them better than the originals.

That why I say denying him based on his current frailness is agency denying, because we can change that, because treating him like a mushroom is not something I want.

Also, in him being 16: so is Lydia, that argument isn't convincing when it can be dismissed as a valid reason just by looking at his girlfriend.
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He's a baseline, not an exalt. That does make a difference.

We can stack all sorts of stuff on him, but we aren't autochthon and he'll be the weak point in any system we set up for his use.



[X] Uju32
 
BronzeTongue said:
He's a baseline, not an exalt. That does make a difference.

We can stack all sorts of stuff on him, but we aren't autochthon and he'll be the weak point in any system we set up for his use.
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Will he be eclipsed by Molly? Long term - absolutely, Molly is a solaroid in an XP-rich environment and he's a (heroic) mortal. Will he be a controbutor? Also absolutely, if we invest in making him such.

Ultimately it boils down to "do we want more circle mates?" and "do we want Daniel as a character to be one?". His powers don't really matter, unless we find another exaltation.
 
Yog said:
Will he be eclipsed by Molly? Long term - absolutely, Molly is a solaroid in an XP-rich environment and he's a (heroic) mortal. Will he be a controbutor? Also absolutely, if we invest in making him such.

Ultimately it boils down to "do we want more circle mates?" and "do we want Daniel as a character to be one?". His powers don't really matter, unless we find another exaltation.
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No it doesn't. The choices and world building involve matter.

Giving him power because he's feeling insecure isn't really a good idea, especially if he's still not going to measure up. It won't even actually solve the problem prompting it.

The stuff you're boiling away is the game we're playing.
 
[X] Try to persuade him to stay off the radar of the unseen world, it is too dangerous especially given who your father is and what you are
 
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