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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)

I think the middle path is best.

Oliver_Twister said:
[X] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)

During the city attack, we had two votes that could have impacted the outcome of the outcome. We either rushed in and immediately arrested Yan Renshu's cousin, limiting our information gathering for speed or waited longer. Then, we had another vote, to either rush in immediately and fight or work together with the relevant authorities there. Each time, we picked the option that would take more time because we earned more from it. Each time, we chose the option to work with thr people more skilled or knowledgeable than us.

I don't see why we shouldn't do so here. Cao Chun is the person who divined the incident. He's the one who came up with the current plan. He's the one with decades to centuries experience with situations like this. And he's recommending Jin Tae.

Jin Tae's message may take longer, but it ignores how huge an advantage the lack of tip off is. If there's no tip off, we have time to plan around the saboteurs and control the narrative. If there's a tip off, we lose our advantage, and have no idea what they'll do. They could escalate. They could go in hiding until the worst possible moment. They could rush any existing operation. All of this could make the sabotage obvious and ruin negotiations.

There is also the fact that the Jin Tae option doesn't necessarily mean a long delay. It's a longer delay compared to Zheng Fu's own. That could be an extra nanosecond instead of a whole minute. It's still comparatively longer.

And all of the incidents have had delays since we didn't know about them and has to rush there to save people. No one has been harmed. Without Cao Chun investigating and telling us, we would be in that same situation, so continuing with his recommendation only make sense.. Now we know, and are prepared. We have MoI workers already on the scene watching. We will still be faster then we would normally be in this situation simply by virtue of knowing beforehand.

And Zheng Fu will be part of the fight and investigation regardless since everyone will converge once the signal arrives, so he'll still participate and won't be sidelined.

This option would help us root out the sabotage in the long run, and there ARE other ways to get MoI rep without giving them influence. I'm pretty sure listening to them in their rep in their area of expertise is one of them. Like, it's been hinted that the only reason why Cao is involving us is because we followed his suggestion and added a Peaks judge to the judge panel. I'm pretty sure listening to his suggestion on a literal matter of imperial security would do something similar.
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I disagree with the fear that Jin Tae will purposely sabotage the operation or even put less than his best effort on it. He is going to try to solve this case to the full extent of his capabilities.

But the longer delay is an unnegable fact.
I think it's disingenous to claim that the downside of the Jin option doesn't actually exists. If the option says that it will take longer to get there, it will take a relevant amount of extra time to get there, not a nanosecond.

And that can costs innocents lives.
Just because no one has died so far doesn't mean no one will die this time. I disagree with that statement.
So far the saboteers have been subtle, trying to remain hidden. This time they will cause a greater "accident" in order to ruin the summit and draw the MoI attention.
The attack will be more swift and brutal than the previous ones.

I'm not willing to risk the lives just to get "free" MoI rep. Our first duty must be to the people.
But letting the culprits escape by tipoing them off will only endanger them later. We need to, at least, get a solid lead on the culprit's identity.

So, the middle option seems the best compromise. The best bet to get results without callously using the people as bait.
 
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@yrsillar question: where's Sixiang in all of this?

I was just wondering why they couldn't help out, given they would presumably be able to tip us off faster than Jin Tae and could also be a useful pair of eyes in the liminal? Is it that they're not here? Or that they're just not sneaky enough to loiter in the liminal without being detected?
 
Erebeal said:
@yrsillar question: where's Sixiang in all of this?

I was just wondering why they couldn't help out, given they would presumably be able to tip us off faster than Jin Tae and could also be a useful pair of eyes in the liminal? Is it that they're not here? Or that they're just not sneaky enough to loiter in the liminal without being detected?
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Sixiangs not particularly sneaky on their own. They will be assisting Ling Qi during this arc, but in their usual role. Just haven't had time to bring it up yet.
 
[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)

Even if we assume absolute competence and perfect judgment from Jin Tae, the delay is still a big problem.
 
Doramas said:
[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)

I think the middle path is best.



I disagree with the fear that Jin Tae will purposely sabotage the operation or even put less than his best effort on it. He is going to try to solve this case to the full extent of his capabilities.

But the longer delay is an unnegable fact.
I think it's disingenous to claim that the downside of the Jin option doesn't actually exists. If the option says that it will take longer to get there, it will take a relevant amount of extra time to get there, not a nanosecond.

And that can costs innocents lives.
Just because no one has died so far doesn't mean no one will die this time. I disagree with that statement.
So far the saboteers have been subtle, trying to remain hidden. This time they will cause a greater "accident" in order to ruin the summit and draw the MoI attention.
The attack will be more swift and brutal than the previous ones.

I'm not willing to risk the lives just to get "free" MoI rep. Our first duty must be to the people.
But letting the culprits escape by tipoing them off will only endanger them later. We need to, at least, get a solid lead on the culprit's identity.

So, the middle option seems the best compromise. The best bet to get results without callously using the people as bait.
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First of all, that was just an example of how something could be comparatively longer, but mot actually long. There is no delay, then a slight delay compared to our speed, and then a comparatively longer delay compared to our speed.

Knowing our speed without having to wait for information to work up the chain towards us, I think it's an acceptable risk. Especially when we'll not only find the identity of the culprits, but attack them without them expecting it. We only have one chance here. Once there's a tip off, we can't take it back. Considering how subtle the culprits already are, they may disappear from our notice entirely, even if we know the faction involved.

Plus, we're not the only people chasing them here. Shu Yue is also investigating, and tipping the saboteur off about the investigations makes things harder for them.

yrsillar said:
"You mean you can't?" Ling Qi asked, frustrated. "Is the Duchess really so happy to treat this like a game?"

"You misunderstand," Shu Yue said, tapping their fingers together. "I pursue the prime mover of this, likely a peer. You, my student must seek their pieces, and disrupt them in turn. This may provide me with an opportunity, without exposing yourself or the young Miss while I am distracted."
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I'm not suggesting we use people as bait for free MoI rep. I simply brought up the point that it may give us that. Because people like when you listen to them. Especially people who are very experienced in their particular field. Or people who have planned the whole operation and only thought to include you because you did them a favour.

No one is suggesting people as bait. Cao Chun will not risk any lives since this can hurt people in the Empire too. That's a disingenuous take on the option that involves listening to the expert when they're presenting their plan to you.
 
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Why not send both, two possible targets and two spotters? 0+1=1 right? [/jk]

[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)

Rapid response while hopefully not scuttling the whole agenda. I am a bit surprised he'd be identified as a spy by the perpetrators but we play with the cards we're dealt.
 
yrsillar said:
"Honestly, my suspicions run more toward our other foes," Ling Qi said, nodding toward the ground. "Given their methods and penchant for intrigue. I think the Ith-ia and their own allies would stand to benefit the most from this all dissolving into violence, or simply failing. I have no direct evidence yet, but the motive seems right."
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To be frank. I'd be shocked if the Ith-ia *didn't* try to disrupt the talks. The entire seed of the diplomat project was Ling Qi personal fucking up there attempt to ally with the Barbarians, flipping the Star Titan wildcard, and fuckin *stealing* the starstone from beneath the dastardly commander Rattigan.

Who *wouldn't* see this and go "no fuck u you don't get one when you ruined ours"
 
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Jin Tae's already shown us he's not very motivated in pursuing truth if it loses him advantage. In the case it's an Empire faction sabotage, I would doubt his judgment/the completeness of his testimony.

That being said, what part of this involves his judgement? All he really needs to do is raise an alarm when someone shows up at one of the sites.

Before, in the mail fraud investigation, our choice to delay was to reduce the delay of high-level reinforcements. This time, we have that guaranteed either way.

If this had a chance to improve Ministry relations, I would absolutely give Jin Tae another chance, and show Cao Chun that we're willing to continue working with his recommendations, and trust his judgements, but that isn't included in the choices so far, so I don't want to act on that outside possibility.

This spotting task putting him as the lynchpin would tie failure back to him directly enough, and in the wheelhouse of his profession enough, that I have a little more confidence in his personal motivation. In comparison with the investigating, where the failure already happened, and he was just on cleanup for someone else's dumb idea, here he has a chance to show off his cool hero side and flashy esoteric ducal arts.

Our Superstealth rolls have paid off too well in the past to not pay in to stealth now.

It's unclear if the sabotage is already all set up, needing only a trigger, or if it will need to be set up during the morning hours. The first option makes the delay very important, the second much less so.

With the delay, we're possibly risking worker safety once, but with the chance of tipoff, we're risking ongoing safety for the entire endeavor.

[X] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)
 
[X] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)

[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)
 
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Oliver_Twister said:
Jin Tae has not been involved in any negotiations so far. Currently, he's a faceless MoI agent at the summit compared to Cao Chun (vocal negotiator), Ling Qi (negotiator and organiser) and Zheng Fu (eventual negotiator. Person of relative interest).

And I think it's a hell of a reach to assume that something that has been consistently truthful like info brackets will suddenly lie to us. If Yrs did that, it'll ruin reader trust. It's just bad quest designing.

I don't like Jin Tae, and I think this suspicion is getting ridiculous. He's a baby Green with no experience in any of the skillset needed to sabotage us, such as geomancy. He's the apprentice of a cultivator whose Way was made for stuff like this. He can't hide something like that from Cao.

The only reason there's even a longer delay is because of his low cultivation because he's one year younger than us. If it was higher, I really doubt that Zheng Fu's signalling would be better. Even then, he's still a ducal with a highly constructed art suite.
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To be perfectly clear, I am beyond uninterested in litigating the actual likelihood of Jin Tae being involved in the sabotage. I am purely and specifically addressing the question of what information we can reasonably take from the bracketed text.

On which point: I maintain that that information is substantially more limited than you are proposing. It's not that the info bracket would be lying to us, it's that what "no tipoff" means is contextually determined. In context it very clearly refers to the specific risk outlined in the update - namely, that someone who's supposed to be at the meeting not being there would look suspicious, thereby potentially alerting the saboteur(s). I believe we can therefore take as a guarantee exactly and only that Jin Tae's absence from...wherever he'd normally be...will not be cause for such suspicion.

I am strenuously opposed to attempts to extend that certainty any further, not least because readers interpreting the QM to be totally guaranteeing something that they're not actually guaranteeing at all is a bad pattern that I've seen before. At best it feels like blackmailing the QM into playing along to avoid "ruining reader trust;" at worst, something actually does go contrary to what was "promised" and people absolutely flip about it. No thank you.
 
[ ] She would make her excuses tomorrow and lay in wait. (Immediate response, Obvious tip off)
[ ] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)
[ ] She would agree with Cao Chun to allow Jin Tae to spot. (Longer delay, No tip off)
Of the three options I think Option 3 should be immediately eliminated. Not because of Jin Tae's involvement, but because a longer delay makes the chance that lives will be lost much greater. We have a responsibility to protect innocents whenever we can. These workers certainly count.

Other than that it would be interesting to follow Cao Chun's line of thinking about doing an obvious tip off to have the opportunity to see the opposition's reaction and would help save some lives at the cost of potentially endangering lives that we can't predict the location of and therefore can't guarantee their safety. Option 2 is the "best" of both worlds where we do our best to protect as many lives as possible because of the reduced delay and lower chance of a tip off forcing the opposition to switch to a less predictable threat vector.

[X] She would make her excuses tomorrow and lay in wait. (Immediate response, Obvious tip off)
[X] She would ask Zheng Fu to lay in wait. (Slight delay, less obvious tip off)

Either of these works for me as of right now.
 
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