So if we can't start top-down, why not start in the middle?

There are a lot of Forgeworlds out there, a lot of Fabricators and Archmagi with influence and independant ressources and knowledge.

If Horus could draw a significant faction of them on his side as a little side-project besides his other Heresy-preps, why couldn't we?

Offer the leaders of Graia, Cypra Mundi and other important Forgeworlds knowledge and archeotech or even a bit of Mona's time in exchange for supporting our Campuses and other policies and see how many of them let their love of the good loot overwhelm their conservatism.

Of course this takes longer and is less efficient than getting the help of Mars itself, but it's still helpful in the mid-term, and in the long-term it might even get us enough AdMech backing not to be forced to negotiate with this particular FabGen anymore.
I think this might be a good plan. If you want to work with the Admech, working with the Fabgen and strengthening her with repeated concessions that she will latter use to bury us and her rivals in admech is not a good idea.

Instead work with the people from the opposite factions from her and especially other forge worlds. Help increase their independence and power. We may not be able to disrupt the treaty easily but it would be more viable to weaken the orthodoxy and dominance of Mars as the foremost leaders of Admech. Fragment the entire thing preferably and annihilate centralized control.

It's a goal that the other forge worlds may prove more sympathetic toward compared to breaking the treaty, even if it is just out of self interest and desire for more autonomy.
 
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[x] Plan: Independent Demon Fighting
- [x] Pandora's Eyes (+2 Favour/Divination)
- [x] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
- [x] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
- [x] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)


[x] Plan Visionary
 
So if we can't start top-down, why not start in the middle?

There are a lot of Forgeworlds out there, a lot of Fabricators and Archmagi with influence and independant ressources and knowledge.

If Horus could draw a significant faction of them on his side as a little side-project besides his other Heresy-preps, why couldn't we?

Offer the leaders of Graia, Cypra Mundi and other important Forgeworlds knowledge and archeotech or even a bit of Mona's time in exchange for supporting our Campuses and other policies and see how many of them let their love of the good loot overwhelm their conservatism.

Of course this takes longer and is less efficient than getting the help of Mars itself, but it's still helpful in the mid-term, and in the long-term it might even get us enough AdMech backing not to be forced to negotiate with this particular FabGen anymore.
I think this might be a good plan. If you want to work with the Admech, working with the Fabgen and strengthening her with repeated concessions that she will latter use to bury us and her rivals in admech is not a good idea.

Instead work with the people from the opposite factions from her and especially other forge worlds. Help increase their independence and power. We may not be able to disrupt the treaty easily but it would be more viable to weaken the orthodoxy and dominance of Mars as the foremost leaders of Admech. Fragment the entire thing preferably and annihilate centralized control.

It's a goal that the other forge worlds may prove more sympathetic toward compared to breaking the treaty, even if it is just out of self interest and desire for more autonomy.
This could theoretically work... If not the fact that Antegymax has the rest of the Mechanicus in a pneumatically powered adamantium vice grip, and neither Pandora nor Mona are Mechanicus Reformer Sensei. So the gains would be so minimal to not be worth it in the first place, or outright non-existent. At least with the effort we can afford to allocate to the Mechanicus-problem.

Which is why we are here, making a deal with a political opponent who knows that Pandora will not just delete her existence when Pandora's morals and vision for the future are taken into account. Also time, because the Psychic Awakening is coming, and we cannot afford delays in dealing with it. Which trying to solve the Mechanicus the hard way right now would inevitably involve.

Anyway, I would like to remind that there is an upcoming social with Lyra and her master, who are quite the way into the radical-spectrum in the way that that is more palatable to us and Pandora. So if we want technological expertise that aligns more with our vision, there is our chance. And yet at the same time they still can't replace the support of the Adeptus Mechanicus when it comes to dealing with the Psychic Awakening in time.

Nor can they give us the same kind of force-multiplier that a Gloriana-Class would be in the short-term. Which I think we kinda need if we want to pull of the Sanguinius + Ynnead -combo in the next turn without horrific attrition on our side, or potentially even suffer an outright failure if things escalate too rapidly.

Basically, Lyra and her master might give us the seeds for some form of long-term solution, especially if we put Mona on task at some point to get them started. But that is in the long-term, and we still need the short-term solutions to get to enjoy the fruits of long-term efforts. Even if doing so will cause problems in the future.

(EDIT: various typos corrected and wording changed)
 
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We shouldn't pretend the Admech doesn't have an impressive ability to both maintain technology long after their expiration date, and to organize massive production facilities. Whatever happens, that knowledge can not be lost.

I think this might be a good plan. If you want to work with the Admech, working with the Fabgen and strengthening her with repeated concessions that she will latter use to bury us and her rivals in admech is not a good idea.

Instead work with the people from the opposite factions from her and especially other forge worlds. Help increase their independence and power. We may not be able to disrupt the treaty easily but it would be more viable to weaken the orthodoxy and dominance of Mars as the foremost leaders of Admech. Fragment the entire thing preferably and annihilate centralized control.

It's a goal that the other forge worlds may prove more sympathetic toward compared to breaking the treaty, even if it is just out of self interest and desire for more autonomy.
We'd need to tone down our plans and ensure the Admech retains a strong enough position that there are actually enough Fabricators willing to offer support.
 
We shouldn't pretend the Admech doesn't have an impressive ability to both maintain technology long after their expiration date, and to organize massive production facilities. Whatever happens, that knowledge can not be lost.


We'd need to tone down our plans and ensure the Admech retains a strong enough position that there are actually enough Fabricators willing to offer support.
What makes Admech dangerous currently is their unity behind a single position, which exists in the form of Fabricator General of Mars. Destroy/weaken it and they just become a bunch of cargo cultists that can be individually negotiated and dealt with. The position of FabGen is frankly already weakened with God knows how many forge worlds in Pacificus and Dark Imperium, that functionally no longer answer to her. Those forge worlds can also be supported and won to our side.

Supporting a autonomist movement of some sort is the only thing I can think of that can weaken admech in the long run enough, that it's reformable. Pandora wouldn't support anything more radical currently, so i think that's our best bet.

Ofc, we can always ignore the admech, keep using them to prop up the imperium/our short term goals. Might even be the most pragmatic choice with the path Pandora has chosen, even if it sucks for all their slaves.
 
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What makes Admech dangerous currently is their unity behind a single position, which exists in the form of Fabricator General of Mars
No, what makes the Admech dangerous currently is that it is a hyper-fascist+hyper-feudal+hyper-theocratic conglomeration, meaning that the Fabricator-General of Mars has tremendous leeway to do bad and useless (from Pandora's perspective) things, and very little leeway to do good or useful (from Pandora's perspective) things, as doing bad tends to reduce the chance of schism or werewolf, but doing good tends to increase it. And while we could 100% try to get stuff from an individual Forgeworld, the kinds of things we would want out of that would massively increase the chances of schism or werewolf. It is a thing we probably need to tackle at some point, and unless we have some kind of OCP solution, the solution will probably involve time and difficult reform and political/religious fights that are kept just under the threshold of causing schism or werewolf.
 
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What makes Admech dangerous currently is their unity behind a single position, which exists in the form of Fabricator General of Mars. Destroy/weaken it and they just become a bunch of cargo cultists that can be individually negotiated and dealt with. The position of FabGen is frankly already weakened with God knows how many forge worlds in Pacificus and Dark Imperium, that functionally no longer answer to her. Those forge worlds can also be supported and won to our side.

Supporting a autonomist movement of some sort is the only thing I can think of that can weaken admech in the long run enough, that it's reformable. Pandora wouldn't support anything more radical currently, so i think that's our best bet.

Ofc, we can always ignore the admech, keep using them to prop up the imperium/our short term goals. Might even be the most pragmatic choice with the path Pandora has chosen, even if it sucks for all their slaves.

The problem is even a plurality of them can cripple of us if they are fanatical enough which to be clear they are, they maintain all the tech (practically speaking) which means they can sabotage all the tech.

Let's say we manage to turn 60% of the Ad Mech to our position, not just to broadly agreeing with us, but to where they would support us in a war, that is a tall order, but assuming for the sake of argument. If the Fabricator general is still on Mars and still has the capacity to meaningfully communicate with her 40% worth of loyalists when that fight starts... the Imperium is probably still going down in flames, because she is not going to be giving the order to do peaceful protests or line battles, she is going to give the order to preserve the sanctity of the Machine God against the heretics at all costs.

Embers in the Dusk had a similar situation on a much smaller scale and the way the GM described it in that instance was 'imagine if your state was taken over by Chaos Cultists, what would the loyalists do?'. To the conservative ad mech the reformers are that bad, no price and no sacrifice is too great to cause maximum harm.

We need to get people who agree with Antegymax not just out of the majority, but in the single digits if we want to contain the damage.
 
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No, what makes the Admech dangerous currently is that it is a hyper-fascist+hyper-feudal+hyper-theocratic conglomeration, meaning that the Fabricator-General of Mars has tremendous leeway to do bad and useless (from Pandora's perspective) things, and very little leeway to do good or useful (from Pandora's perspective) things, as doing bad tends to reduce the chance of schism or werewolf, but doing good tends to increase it. And while we could 100% try to get stuff from an individual Forgeworld, the kinds of things we would want out of that would massively increase the chances of schism or werewolf. It is a thing we probably need to tackle at some point, and unless we have some kind of OCP solution, the solution will probably involve time and difficult reform and political/religious fights that are kept just under the threshold of causing schism or werewolf.

I do have one thought for OCP buuut... it would requite a level of willful blindness from Pandora I do not think she would be capable of: Ask the Emperor to convince her to our side of the political divide. Given his history that is likely to involve quasi-religious revelation mind control, he would mind control her as he did for many notables on Tera who abruptly changed their minds upon meeting the 'Lord of Lightning'.

I do not think he is meaningfully capable capable so social interaction that is not mind-bending orders to anyone less mystically powerful then one of his Greater Deva so asking him to talk someone around is basically asking him to mind control them.
 
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[X] Plan: Martian Problem Alchemy
-[X] Pandora's Eyes (+1 Favour/AP and +2x2 Favour/Divination; total of +5 Favour)
-[X] Teach Sanctic Sorcery's Wards (+3 Favour, 1 AP by Turn 6)
-[X] Acknowledgement of the Void Order (-3 Favour)
-[X] Telepathica Campus Support (-2 Favour)
-[X] The Amphion and its Escorts (-3 to not have any Tech-Priests aboard)

I have been persuaded that the Amphion is too important for Sanguinius and/or Ynnead next turn to pass up.
Hate giving up an AP and both Divinations, but them's the breaks. If this helps ensure that we get a Primarch on our side, unite the Asuryani in an alliance with us, and deal major blows to Chaos, then it's worth it.
 
Got an okay from Swordo on discord to post this part of a discord conversation on Pandora's reputation, the Gloriana-Class Battleship and potential candinates for the expanded Honor Guard:
 
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The problem is even a plurality of them can cripple of us if they are fanatical enough which to be clear they are, they maintain all the tech (practically speaking) which means they can sabotage all the tech.

Let's say we manage to turn 60% of the Ad Mech to our position, not just to broadly agreeing with us, but to where they would support us in a war, that is a tall order, but assuming for the sake of argument. If the Fabricator general is still on Mars and still has the capacity to meaningfully communicate with her 40% worth of loyalists when that fight starts... the Imperium is probably still going down in flames, because she is not going to be giving the order to do peaceful protests or line battles, she is going to give the order to preserve the sanctity of the Machine God against the heretics at all costs.

Embers in the Dusk had a similar situation on a much smaller scale and the way the GM described it in that instance was 'imagine if your state was taken over by Chaos Cultists, what would the loyalists do?'. To the conservative ad mech the reformers are that bad, no price and no sacrifice is too great to cause maximum harm.

We need to get people who agree with Antegymax not just out of the majority, but in the single digits if we want to contain the damage.
No, my point isn't that 'the problem is that there are lots of bad people who won't obey us so if we keep everything the same but install good people who will obey us it will solve the problem', my point is that the entire structure of the thing is bad to the point where even if we did replace all the Fabricator-Generals of all the Forge Worlds with puppets we would still get instant schism + werewolf as their apprentices/the people just below them in their patronage network/etc killed them and/or each other etc if we tried to get them to do all the good stuff we want. Hence (one of the reasons) why Lucan has such a firm 'just burn it all down' stance.

I think that we *can* fix things, but that just brainwashing (or having the Emperor brainwash) Antegymax would not really help there. Instead we would need to focus on things that the Admech would be willing to bring in some democracy / unions / secularism / etc if it meant that they got it, and/or combining careful amounts of undermining the Admech's monopoly on education while also propping up the Admech and also Antegymax personally so they don't feel threatened - eg by smashing the Dark Mechanicum, or helping them find lots of STCs, or doing something to create more ecumenicalism between the two state religions.
 
No, my point isn't that 'the problem is that there are lots of bad people who won't obey us so if we keep everything the same but install good people who will obey us it will solve the problem', my point is that the entire structure of the thing is bad to the point where even if we did replace all the Fabricator-Generals of all the Forge Worlds with puppets we would still get instant schism + werewolf as their apprentices/the people just below them in their patronage network/etc killed them and/or each other etc if we tried to get them to do all the good stuff we want. Hence (one of the reasons) why Lucan has such a firm 'just burn it all down' stance.

I think that we *can* fix things, but that just brainwashing (or having the Emperor brainwash) Antegymax would not really help there. Instead we would need to focus on things that the Admech would be willing to bring in some democracy / unions / secularism / etc if it meant that they got it, and/or combining careful amounts of undermining the Admech's monopoly on education while also propping up the Admech and also Antegymax personally so they don't feel threatened - eg by smashing the Dark Mechanicum, or helping them find lots of STCs, or doing something to create more ecumenicalism between the two state religions.

Yeah, my point was not just 'we need to replace all the arch-magi' it is 'we need to replace most of the rank and file techpriests, like 90+%' over generations (which take hundreds of years because Juve Nat) with people more ideologically aligned with us in order to avoid what you call the werewolf scenario. This is something that will take tens of turns.
 
Yeah, my point was not just 'we need to replace all the arch-magi' it is 'we need to replace most of the rank and file techpriests, like 90+%' over generations (which take hundreds of years because Juve Nat) with people more ideologically aligned with us in order to avoid what you call the werewolf scenario. This is something that will take tens of turns.
I mean, the political economy and social organisation is more my concern than ideological alignment as such, inasmuch as I think that even if a sizeable majority of the Admech as it is currently structured were more ideologically aligned with us the structure would still get in the way of positive change and stifle the necessary factors for people to come together collectively etc etc, which is why I would focus on changing that to be less hyper-fascist, hyper-feudal, and hyper-theocratic. Which would involve an awful lot of carefully propping the Admech and Antegymax up in ways that don't make things worse while undermining them in ways that make things better.
 
I mean, the political economy and social organisation is more my concern than ideological alignment as such, inasmuch as I think that even if a sizeable majority of the Admech as it is currently structured were more ideologically aligned with us the structure would still get in the way of positive change and stifle the necessary factors for people to come together collectively etc etc, which is why I would focus on changing that to be less hyper-fascist, hyper-feudal, and hyper-theocratic. Which would involve an awful lot of carefully propping the Admech and Antegymax up in ways that don't make things worse while undermining them in ways that make things better.

I do not think that is as much of a distinction honestly, there are radicals in the ad mech and there are reformers, due to the sheer scale of the organization you can find some variation of them to align to practically any direction you want to take it. Pick your horse and get it to win races, then get to to rig the races and convince the other horses to wear its colors. The metaphor is kind of breaking down but I hope the point is made we need a bottom up reform effort that is slow and subtle enough that any one change is not enough to get the current crop of head Toaster-Heads to not even realize the extent to which they have been undermined, then do the same to them and the ones after them and eventually you will be in a position where someone like Antegymax would have called for schism, but she is long dead and some preacher whose holy book Mona may or may not have written is calling from the pulpit how much 'Saint Antegymax' would have loved unionized menials.
 
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I mean, the political economy and social organisation is more my concern than ideological alignment as such, inasmuch as I think that even if a sizeable majority of the Admech as it is currently structured were more ideologically aligned with us the structure would still get in the way of positive change and stifle the necessary factors for people to come together collectively etc etc, which is why I would focus on changing that to be less hyper-fascist, hyper-feudal, and hyper-theocratic. Which would involve an awful lot of carefully propping the Admech and Antegymax up in ways that don't make things worse while undermining them in ways that make things better.
Except, you know. We lack the means to effectively, reliably and efficiently achive things in the way that you want. If the Mechanicus was our sole major concern, sure. We could potentially do it if we had enough time. But we do not.

So we are probably left with just the option of slowly gathering a substitute for them in secret. And then having a civil or a cold war with the Mechanicus when they either find about it, or when alternatively we find ourselves in a situation where we are forced or compelled to reveal our substitutes.

Again, we are not playing a Mechanicus Reformer Sensei, nor do we have access to one.
 
We should focus the Tech Priests to uphold their purposes of maintaining technology and industry. Passing on mechanical knowledge as prayers and the like is actually not that bad of an idea.
 
So... I have been thinking about the Ad Mech conversation and I realized we may be all (myself included in that) be beating around the proverbial bush, mostly because of thinking of reform in the abstract, focusing on all the nice things that reform can be, not lobotomizing prisoners for instance, but at the end of the day this is not a question of 'what we want to do with the power which comes later', it is 'how do we get the power. Pandora is not a revolutionary or an activist, she is not someone starting from the bottom, she is a person in a position of power trying to gather more and more of it to herself for her own ends. She is Palpatine and El Presidente and the Imperium is our slice of Tropico.

What we should be thinking about is where the checks and balances on her power are and subvert them, they are not going to be democratic checks and balances, but that does not really matter to the political practice of the whole thing.

Example:
Say as a newly elected head of government you have a problem with regions that are too autonomous for your liking and they would object to your future lifetime rule. Well when the next time comes to share the funds for local development share generously with those who pledge to support you and 'find votes for your realection' and do not share with the ones who say mean things about you like how you are planning to become a tyrant. What's that judges are ruling against your attribution of funds? No problem you just reformed the judiciary and forced a significant portion of the body that should be judging that case leaving the majority to your yes men

Basically we need Guilliman to starve the tech priests we do not like with bureaucracy and economics while our favored tech priests have Dark Age tech and divination revealed STCs raining into their pokets.

No one is going to rebel if Antegymax needs ten hours and sixteen pie charts to show them how we are screwing over the faction we do not like, especially since this is a large numbers game so we can throw flashy hollow things at them from time to time to maintain the illusion of impartiality.
 
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