Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I'll take that bridge.
Agree to disagree then, because people are still alarmingly easy to exploit.

As to Harry's competence, he never once verifies what Lara says because he trusts his read of her and frankly on some level doesn't want to know.

The white court's whole attitude and abuse of humans doesn't paint any sort of picture where they care about mortal rights or status, only technicalities and attention. Once they've got someone somewhere private they can be bent into saying or doing whatever.

As to how hard people are to disappear? Looking at 2020 as a sample year link apparently you can lose hundreds of thousands, and that's just people who the FBI can get data on. Undocumented people, ranging from the homeless population to migrant workers simply don't make it into most of these sorts of reports.

With even minimal effort they can throw off suspicion, but even if they don't people just disappear in alarming numbers even without supernatural nonsense.

Spite is a terrible investment strategy.

We have no expertise in his canonical line of business(like I said, he's Big Oil) and dont really have any interest in learning.
Furthermore, I have zero interest in establishing a data trail between our assets and those of a White Court minion by looting them, and making it easier for them to track our stuff.

Im of the opinion that the juice isnt worth the squeeze.
I wasn't thinking looting his resources ourselves, other than the blackmail, but rather setting him up to be displaced by allies we cultivate on the court, and profiting from our deals with them.

Ultimately reforming the white court will requiring displacing people invested in the status quo in favor of those willing to change. People like Charles are part of that.

The distances make it a problem though, so I'm not going to push it terribly hard.
 
I don't like how the idea of using our family home as a safehouse for a stranger, regardless of how well it's protected. And it's even worse to do it in this manner, without even discussing it with our parents first. Of course, the Carpenters are good people and won't turn someone in need away from their doorstep, but that just makes it worse, IMO.

It just rubs me the wrong way, the more I think about it. If she needs to be sent anywhere, why not Lydia's well warded home?

Or better yet, she can just stay here at the party. It's unlikely she'll be attacked here, and while she remains present there is some amount of attention focused her way rather than Lydia, ourself, or Lara.
I know we didn't choose to play Molly carpenter but we are her. That comes with pre conceived norms and those include a family that does do charitable things pretty much whenever a problem arises even if it's to their own detriment. That's part of the package. Even if it can have consequences altruism is not something to give up on.

[X] Offer to send Eleanor to your house to talk to mom, you are sure she can be of help somehow
 
Agree to disagree then, because people are still alarmingly easy to exploit.

As to Harry's competence, he never once verifies what Lara says because he trusts his read of her and frankly on some level doesn't want to know.

The white court's whole attitude and abuse of humans doesn't paint any sort of picture where they care about mortal rights or status, only technicalities and attention. Once they've got someone somewhere private they can be bent into saying or doing whatever.

As to how hard people are to disappear? Looking at 2020 as a sample year link apparently you can lose hundreds of thousands, and that's just people who the FBI can get data on. Undocumented people, ranging from the homeless population to migrant workers simply don't make it into most of these sorts of reports.

With even minimal effort they can throw off suspicion, but even if they don't people just disappear in alarming numbers even without supernatural nonsense.


I wasn't thinking looting his resources ourselves, other than the blackmail, but rather setting him up to be displaced by allies we cultivate on the court, and profiting from our deals with them.

Ultimately reforming the white court will requiring displacing people invested in the status quo in favor of those willing to change. People like Charles are part of that.

The distances make it a problem though, so I'm not going to push it terribly hard.
Given this is true I doubt Thomas guilt of what he is exactly unique in the white court. Relatively rare sure but not unique. Given it might just be unique for any important members of the white court.
 
Yeah, no doubt Barrowill got humiliated. From White Court perspective he acted extremly undignified, and almost ended up in a duel in a way that forced Lara to intervene. As his punishment he got told to hand over his slave/wife/dinner. His social standig is toast. In fact after this affair we might have to do some surveillance on him. Less prideful men have enacted vengeful plots for far less.
 
I'm of mixed feelings because there is a good chance she's going to get picked off shortly after she is away from the party, not even because she is a loose end so much as because she was here at all. We're probably being hunted even now, just with the hunters having to stay back due to the sheer density of whites unless He Who QWOPs In The Lavatory decides to erupt from the corpse of one of our victims or something.

I'm kind of feeling that the danger she is at from those at the party is actually already peaked. She's already compromised, just expected to be on someone else's leash.
 
Given this is true I doubt Thomas guilt of what he is exactly unique in the white court. Relatively rare sure but not unique. Given it might just be unique for any important members of the white court.
Yeah, it's clearly not unique. We can see that in how many of the whamps that end up in the undertown are there because guilt drove them around the bend. Also in this:

She is pretty sure the vampire does not see the woman as a person, more as a talking lunchable, people who do not see them like that would be on the other side of the room where they aren't swapping them.

Apparently there's enough of a minority that does believe humans are people to get their own area of the party, but it's still a minority.

Otherwise there'd be more of a push to actually change some of their worst practices.

The existence of that group is sort of a foundation of what I was proposing in the post you quoted. It wouldn't work unless there are some whamps somewhere that think sort of like Thomas but still hold ground in the court.

I'm of mixed feelings because there is a good chance she's going to get picked off shortly after she is away from the party, not even because she is a loose end so much as because she was here at all. We're probably being hunted even now, just with the hunters having to stay back due to the sheer density of whites unless He Who QWOPs In The Lavatory decides to erupt from the corpse of one of our victims or something.

I'm kind of feeling that the danger she is at from those at the party is actually already peaked. She's already compromised, just expected to be on someone else's leash.
The party is about to explode though, when we start fighting this is going to turn into a bloodbath as the genocide faction tries to fight their way out.

Even if she isn't targeted just being on the grounds is a good way to catch a stray bullet or get clipped with someone's AoE.

Worse, after the fight every vamp in the room is going to be hungry, especially if they're injured. Even the strong willed can get irrational and lose control to their hunger under bad enough circumstances.

Being a mortal in a room of starving supernatural predators is not healthy.

Getting hit when she leaves is a potential issue, but it's worth noting that if someone is planning to go after our car when we leave they still believe they have hours to work with. When black rider takes off I'd give it good odds they aren't ready for it if anyone is planning to jump us tonight in the first place.
 
[X] Offer Eleanor Black Rider's services to go wherever she needs to go to clear her head that is not a vampire party about to turn into an execution
 
I like the Black Rider idea, right now just driving around town to get your head clear sounds like a very good idea after all that happened.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jul 9, 2023 at 2:11 AM, finished with 53 posts and 19 votes.
 
Agree to disagree then, because people are still alarmingly easy to exploit.
As to Harry's competence, he never once verifies what Lara says because he trusts his read of her and frankly on some level doesn't want to know.

The white court's whole attitude and abuse of humans doesn't paint any sort of picture where they care about mortal rights or status, only technicalities and attention. Once they've got someone somewhere private they can be bent into saying or doing whatever.

As to how hard people are to disappear? Looking at 2020 as a sample year link apparently you can lose hundreds of thousands, and that's just people who the FBI can get data on. Undocumented people, ranging from the homeless population to migrant workers simply don't make it into most of these sorts of reports.

With even minimal effort they can throw off suspicion, but even if they don't people just disappear in alarming numbers even without supernatural nonsense.
Agree to disagree then. But there are two points I'd like you to keep in mind:

1) The books represent around 3-4 days of the most hectic periods of the year for Harry Dresden; after the first two books, which both happen in the same year, the events of the other books are spaced at least a year apart IC.
We dont actually see what Dresden does for the other 360-odd days of the year.

I would assert that he isnt just gathering bottlecaps, especially with Bob to gather intel for him in the Chicago area.


2) Harry Dresden put up his brother Thomas Raith in his apartment between the end of Blood Rites, when Lara banished him, and the ending of Proven Guilty, when he moved out and into an apartment of his own. Thats a period of roughly 2 years.
In an apartment with no power, no radio or TV or computers, and nothing doing besides talking or reading.

They had the time to talk. A lot.
Thomas was raised in the heart of White Court power for four decades, and Lara was responsible for hand-raising him after Maggie LeFay fled. Harry has a better sense for her, and frankly the White Court, than any other wizard alive.


3) Sure, if you were just vanishing randos.
When you are selecting for youth and good looks, like this sort of event does, your activity stops being lost in the general background hum of missing person reports and starts leaving its own distinct signatures.

I just dont see them taking the risk.
Not when they can literally geas you not to talk, like Madeline Raith did, and send you away.

I wasn't thinking looting his resources ourselves, other than the blackmail, but rather setting him up to be displaced by allies we cultivate on the court, and profiting from our deals with them.

Ultimately reforming the white court will requiring displacing people invested in the status quo in favor of those willing to change. People like Charles are part of that.
The distances make it a problem though, so I'm not going to push it terribly hard.
=Social reputation is key in the internal politics of the White Court, and Lydia just incidentally murdered his in two minutes in front of his peers. He let a sixteen year old goad him into intemperate response, and then challenged the kid to a duel.
And Lara had to bail him out and publicly spank him to keep the peace.

Lydia has managed to raise serious questions about his competence, which will dog him for a long time.

Not to mention that the impending outbreak of violence is going to reinforce major questions about his threat evaluation capabilities that were raised when he brashly tried to mindwhammy the part-human daughter of an old death god.
Right next to her archdevil-presenting companion.

Because I'm sure other people will note Molly not considering it necessary to defend her companion with interest.
Especially in the light of the rest of the evening's events.


=No real indication that Charles is particularly invested in the status quo anyway, and he's House Raith, so he follows Lara's lead.
He's just a dick.
I know we didn't choose to play Molly carpenter but we are her. That comes with pre conceived norms and those include a family that does do charitable things pretty much whenever a problem arises even if it's to their own detriment. That's part of the package. Even if it can have consequences altruism is not something to give up on.

[X] Offer to send Eleanor to your house to talk to mom, you are sure she can be of help somehow
^^^
Even when Charity couldnt stand Dresden, she still put him up in the Carpenter guest room and was primarily responsible for nursing him after Butters removed the bullet that he was shot with in Death Masks.
They try to live up to the whole brother's keeper credo.

I'm of mixed feelings because there is a good chance she's going to get picked off shortly after she is away from the party, not even because she is a loose end so much as because she was here at all. We're probably being hunted even now, just with the hunters having to stay back due to the sheer density of whites unless He Who QWOPs In The Lavatory decides to erupt from the corpse of one of our victims or something.

I'm kind of feeling that the danger she is at from those at the party is actually already peaked. She's already compromised, just expected to be on someone else's leash.
1)Can't see why.
Mercedes sports cars arent exactly scarce in Chicagoland; Black Rider isnt even the only Mercedes here. And its night time, which isnt great for visual identification between models for anyone watching traffic from and to the Raith estate.

Furthermore, anybody supernatural who wants to come to conclusions with Molly can tell that she isnt in Black Rider because the tidal bore of Molly's magic signature is not in it. Besides, Black Rider is a C219-model CLS that can do at least 250kmhr even with the electronic limiter enabled. And its a Monday night, so clear roads. Rider can beat feet quite well.


2)Given Eleanor's apparent age in the late 30s/early 40s, she has been living with Charles Barrowill for at least ten years, but less than fourteen years, which would track with his having married her in her late 20s after his daughter was born and something happened to the birth mother.

Thats a long time to live in a man's house. A long time to overhear or see a lot of things.
She probably knows where an awful lot of dead bodies and details are buried. And the skinwalkers who have demonstrated such interest in House Raith are still out there somewhere.

I like the Black Rider idea, right now just driving around town to get your head clear sounds like a very good idea after all that happened.
She doesnt live in Chicago.
And with the skinwalkers still out there somewhere, Id probably prefer not to have someone with a lot of information on a significant House Raith minion just walking around Chicago at night.
 
She doesnt live in Chicago.
And with the skinwalkers still out there somewhere, Id probably prefer not to have someone with a lot of information on a significant House Raith minion just walking around Chicago at night.
Drive around Chicago at night.
With a demon-driven car.

A lesser Skinwalker would need a pretty lucky shot to stop her, particularly since they can't just fry the electronics like they could for normal cars.
 
[X] Offer to send Eleanor to your house to talk to mom, you are sure she can be of help somehow

Yeeaaahh let's not have an easy ready made hostage for the mass execution being planned.
 
Drive around Chicago at night.With a demon-driven car.
A lesser Skinwalker would need a pretty lucky shot to stop her, particularly since they can't just fry the electronics like they could for normal cars.
Black Rider has no ability/authority to give her orders, and limited ability to notice a stalker like a lesser skinwalker.
So if Eleanor asks that they stop on a bridge say, for her to catch their breath, or so she can use the bathroom, it has zero ability to affect events once she steps out of the car.

Even bog standard hoodlums are a threat to a rich white woman who doesnt know Chicago.
 
Votes are still pretty close so there are some thoughts about the options:
  • Sending her to your house has the issue that you are sending someone in a very mentally fragile state to deal with Charity and as good of a person as she is she's not perfect, things might get judgy and right now what is keeping Eleanor afloat is Exalted social fu. It is physically the safest place you could send her
  • Keeping her here risks her reacting badly to the battle, most people find displays of extreme violence distressing, also you might have to protect her from said displays of violence. On the other side of things it is a chance to see some vampires brought down to side
  • Sending her on her way restores some sense of autonomy, she presumably has friends or relatives that could take her, but it is a dangerous world out there. Deepnds on who might notice her or Black Rider. Caveat hailing her a cab would make her less noticeable at the cost of basically no ambush protection
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 9, 2023 at 5:52 AM, finished with 58 posts and 20 votes.


Incidentally situations like this are why people usually come with some kind of vassal or servant to these events, so they have a pair of hands spare for surprises which they trust. You guys could have brought one of your ghouls to this, but I did not think about it at the time so Molly did not think about it.
 
[X] Offer Eleanor Black Rider's services to go wherever she needs to go to clear her head that is not a vampire party about to turn into an execution

The Carpenter household is not a safehouse for random people.
 
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[X] Offer to send Eleanor to your house to talk to mom, you are sure she can be of help somehow

Family drama ahoy.
 
Incidentally situations like this are why people usually come with some kind of vassal or servant to these events, so they have a pair of hands spare for surprises which they trust. You guys could have brought one of your ghouls to this, but I did not think about it at the time so Molly did not think about it.

Black Rider totally is there in this position, totally, this was premeditated, honest. :V
 
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