Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Well it cannot possess you because you are a Celestial Exalted, that is one of those thing you do not even need charms for, there is simply no room in your soul for anything else. As for possessing a prepared Mab, that seems unlikely from what you have seen of her.
But from the sounds of it it DOES mean that (this part of) Nemesis is likely going to be popping out in our general vicinity?
 
Well it cannot possess you because you are a Celestial Exalted, that is one of those thing you do not even need charms for, there is simply no room in your soul for anything else. As for possessing a prepared Mab, that seems unlikely from what you have seen of her.
That was another good reason to clear out the onlookers.
 
Think he means this one:
Yeah, this one, sorry about the mistake.
Besides, pixie. Think something the size of your palm.
Pixie noble (has to be, in order to be invited to Maeve's party). That is a rebuttal for both practicality and "pixies are small". Pixies absolutely can shank a man (and a noble could order her minions to do so for her), and coming wearing a dress made out of a man is a much bigger statement / brag than coming in a dress made out of pork. So, as I said, equal odds in my mind.
 
Lash is a subsoul of Lasciel, so yeah, they have subsouls.
Hard disagree.
Lash is a clone of Lasciel, with most of her memories and specifically empowered to give a link to Hellfire.
Thats all.

She has none of the powers you'd expect of the subsoul of a heavy hitter, and she was killed in canon by blocking an Outsider's psychic attack with no apparent damage to her progenitor.
Dresden won't be winning a mental wrestling match with a subsoul of a Fallen the way he does with Lash.

I mean, Molly has literally stood across from her.
Subsoul of a many-souled Primordial-scale entity is not the impression she gives off.
Denarian coins have Fallen bound into them, including all of the Fallen's subsouls. The subsouls van be separated and put into human hosts. That's what we know to be true in this quest. Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism excuses any supernatural entity from a physical object. A Fallen's subsoul is a supernatural entity.

Basically, if we can excise Lash from Dresden, we should be able to remove her (or any of her sisters) from the coin too, in principle.
The Fallen are neither Primordials nor Third Circles.

There is nothing in the quest so far that declares they have subsouls at all, let alone sapient ones. In fact we have seen Uriel depower himself, and we've seen MacAnally run a bar, with no evidence of such, and they're essentially siblings with regards to their origins and species.

We certainly never see Lash talking about sisters, and we explicitly see it said that if she rejoins with her progenitor, she'll cease to be. Which is not how subsouls work.


More generally, I think its a mistake to assume that Exalted mythology or concepts hold primacy here.
This is the Exalted inserted into the World of Darkness setting. Not the other way around.
WoD and Dresden lore will generally have primacy here short of WoGM.
 
But from the sounds of it it DOES mean that (this part of) Nemesis is likely going to be popping out in our general vicinity?
That seems like a good bet the spell is a exorcism not a banishment. Molly has the vague sense that its designers did not expect to ever be in the position where they could not take whatever they ripped out of someone. ;)
Doesnt matter.
We have seen them fight in canon in Cold Days.

Sharkface got punked by Winter Knight Dresden in Mac's bar despite having the advantage of surprise, and later its entire invasion force at Demonreach gets run over by the Wild Hunt. It may not be conclusive of their unrestricted power, but its a sign of what they can do inside Creation, at least, is limited in a face to face confrontation.

if a single shard of Nemesis chooses to come to personal conclusions with Mab and Molly in the same room....I'd say get the popcorn, but by the time you got back from the microwave the show would be over.

EDIT
I mean, it wouldn't need to be an infiltrator if it could take Mab; it would just have requested a private audience after infesting Maeve, gone in with prep time and tried to shank her.
Indeed, it already tried to do this when it was possessing the Leanansidhe, and got slapped down hard.

And we see the Wild Hunt with Kringle and the Erl King stomp an invasion force of lesser Outsiders led by Sharkface, who is a Walker.
 
Last edited:
Alas, the QM disagrees.
Thank you for the citation.

@DragonParadox
I would suggest reconsidering that.

Dresden has protagonist privilege, but he canonically wins fights/tests of will with Lash inside his own head that he repeatedly loses to the Capriocorpus and sometimes to Apprentice!Molly, and thats without any excuse of having a type advantage against angels or Fallen the way he does against Outsiders.

That really should not follow.


And a subsoul of an angel certainly wouldn't die to the psychic attack of an Outsider.
A lot of plot becomes straight up implausible if you presume that Lash is a subsoul with the power to rebel.
As opposed to a clone/mental with knowledge but no real power besides what they piggyback off their host.

Lasciel in subsequent books certainly behaves more like a person whose pride was hurt by rejection, as opposed to a person who was metaphysically maimed by a subsoul rebelling and dying, with a chunk of their power.


Fallen certainly wouldn't be doing the whole Shadow thing with every Tom, Dick and Harry who made physical contact with a Coin if they were literally gambling the equivalent of an internal organ every time.
If they didn't stop totally, they'd be a lot more selective.


EDIT
And like I told @Yog, we saw Uriel hand over his Grace to Michael in Skin Game.
He was mortal for the duration. No subsouls about.
The concept of angelic subsouls is kinda hard to fudge with canon feats in mind.
 
Last edited:
Doesnt matter.
We have seen them fight in canon in Cold Days.

Sharkface got punked by Winter Knight Dresden in Mac's bar despite having the advantage of surprise, and later its entire invasion force at Demonreach gets run over by the Wild Hunt. It may not be conclusive of their unrestricted power, but its a sign of what they can do inside Creation, at least, is limited in a face to face confrontation.

if a single shard of Nemesis chooses to come to personal conclusions with Mab and Molly in the same room....I'd say get the popcorn, but by the time you got back from the microwave the show would be over.
It probably won't get a choice. If Ancient Sorcery isn't a banishment it certainly isn't a taxi service either. He's got to try to escape while within arm's reach of us.
 
@DragonParadox if I recall correctly, Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism is capable of excising Whampire Hunger, right? Does that also apply to ghouls?
Fallen certainly wouldn't be doing the whole Shadow thing with every Tom, Dick and Harry who made physical contact with a Coin if they were literally gambling the equivalent of an internal organ every time.
If they didn't stop totally, they'd be a lot more selective.
As you mentioned previously - Dresden has protagonist privilege, even in-story. He's important, and so it's important to convince him to take the coin. We don't get any sort of evidence that Sanya gets his own head -fallen.
 
Thank you for the citation.

@DragonParadox
I would suggest reconsidering that.

Dresden has protagonist privilege, but he canonically wins fights/tests of will with Lash inside his own head that he repeatedly loses to the Capriocorpus and sometimes to Apprentice!Molly, and thats without any excuse of having a type advantage against angels or Fallen the way he does against Outsiders.

That really should not follow.


And a subsoul of an angel certainly wouldn't die to the psychic attack of an Outsider.
A lot of plot becomes straight up implausible if you presume that Lash is a subsoul with the power to rebel.
As opposed to a clone/mental with knowledge but no real power besides what they piggyback off their host.

Lasciel in subsequent books certainly behaves more like a person whose pride was hurt by rejection, as opposed to a person who was metaphysically maimed by a subsoul rebelling and dying, with a chunk of their power.


Fallen certainly wouldn't be doing the whole Shadow thing with every Tom, Dick and Harry who made physical contact with a Coin if they were literally gambling the equivalent of an internal organ every time.
If they didn't stop totally, they'd be a lot more selective.


EDIT
And like I told @Yog, we saw Uriel hand over his Grace to Michael in Skin Game.
He was mortal for the duration. No subsouls about.
The concept of angelic subsouls is kinda hard to fudge with canon feats in mind.

I cannot reconsider it without major world-building changes and I cannot talk about it without major spoilers. I will say this much Angels are not primordials, just because something can break up into smaller pieces does not mean it exists on that level. As for Uriel looking mortal... well that is certainly what he looked like to the other mortals. I'd call that a case of 'Lies to Children'. Even out of the context of the world building to this quest, there is no way I could imagine a Biblical Angel as mortal+God Juice. They are not that, they are fundamentally alien to humanity.
 
@DragonParadox if I recall correctly, Sapphire Ritual of Exorcism is capable of excising Whampire Hunger, right? Does that also apply to ghouls?

As you mentioned previously - Dresden has protagonist privilege, even in-story. He's important, and so it's important to convince him to take the coin. We don't get any sort of evidence that Sanya gets his own head -fallen.
Protagonist privilege does not usually translate to the opposition being repeatedly stupid.
At least not in readable fiction.

I wouldn't volunteer to repeatedly gamble with my kidney for two thousand years, and I have to assume the people here aren't stupid either. Especially given the arrogance of a lot of immortals and the Fallen we see speak, risking bodily harm or the loss of power for random mortals is literally incomprehensible.

Its not like protagonists are rare in the setting, or obvious before you run into them; see the hundreds of people who qualify to wield a Sword for an evening, or a day, or weeks, before they move on.


There is no evidence that what Lasciel did with Dresden is some extraordinary thing.
Indeed, Lash just says that most Shadows are only around for days or weeks. And the fact that Nicodemus threw the Coin at Harry Junior suggests that Shadows are essentially how the recruitment process works.

I cannot reconsider it without major world-building changes and I cannot talk about it without major spoilers. I will say this much Angels are not primordials, just because something can break up into smaller pieces does not mean it exists on that level. As for Uriel looking mortal... well that is certainly what he looked like to the other mortals. I'd call that a case of 'Lies to Children'. Even out of the context of the world building to this quest, there is no way I could imagine a Biblical Angel as mortal+God Juice. They are not that, they are fundamentally alien to humanity.
Not looking mortal, being mortal.
Nicodemus sent assassins to the Carpenter house he was in at the end of Skin Game, which would be the sort of thing that Anduriel would have warned against, and physically prevented, if he was an immortal.

Not to mention MacAnally.

Im not going to nag you about spoilers about unrevealed plot; thats unfair to you.
But fair warning, I will probably bring this up again when the spoilers are revealed. Because I suspect that decision is going to break your world building a lot worse.
 
Last edited:
OK, I am going to look into that world building and read up on the later books in the series again, but that is all I can promise right now. Until then consider the subsoul matter on hold
 
Re: Uriel
Skin Game chapter 49:
Charity lowered the shotgun, her blue eyes wide. She was wearing pajamas and one of her handmade tactical coats over them-a layer of titanium mail between two multilayered coats of antiballistic fabric. She had what looked like a Colt Model 1911 in a holster on her hip. "Harry!" she said, and hurriedly opened the storm door.
I hurried in and said, "They're coming."
"Michael just called," she said, nodding, and shut the security door behind me, throwing multiple bolts closed as she did.
"Where are the kids?"
"Upstairs, in the panic room."
"We've got to get them out," I said.
"Too late," said a voice from the front room. "They're here."
I padded forward intently, and found Waldo Butters crouching by the front windows, staring out. He was wearing his Batman vest with all its magical gadgets, and holding a pump-action shotgun carefully, as if he knew how to use it, but only just.
In the doorway to the kitchen stood Uriel. He was wearing an apron. There was what appeared to be pancake flour staining his shirt. Instead of looking dangerous and absolute, the way an archangel should, he looked slender and a little tired and vulnerable. He didn't have a gun, but he stood holding a long kitchen knife in competent hands, and there was a quiet balance to his body that would have warned me that he might be dangerous if I hadn't known him.
Mouse sat next to Uriel, looking extremely serious. His tail thumped twice against the vulnerable archangel's legs as he saw me.
"Da. .," Charity began, when she saw Uriel. "Darn it," she continued, her voice annoyed. "You're supposed to be upstairs with the children."
"I was fighting wars when this planet was nothing but expanding gasses," Uriel said.
"You also didn't leak and die if someone poked a hole in you," I said.
The angel frowned. "I can help."

"Help what?" I asked him, drawing the monster revolver from my duster pocket. "Slice up bananas for pancakes? This is a gunfight."
"Harry," Butters said urgently.
"Ennghk," I said in frustration, and went to Butters. "Mouse, stay with him, boy."
"Woof," Mouse said seriously. That was obviously the mutt's plan, but I read somewhere that a good commander never gives an order he knows won't be obeyed. It therefore stood to reason that he might as well give orders that he knows will be obeyed whenever possible.
"Kill the lights," I said to Charity.
She nodded. Most of the lights were already out, but a few night-lights that could double as detachable flashlights glowed in power outlets here and there. She went around detaching them, and the interior of the home became darker than the predawn winter light outside.
I moved to Butters's side and peered out through the translucent drapes while I reloaded my big revolver. I could dimly see squires unloading from the two vans, now parked in front of the house. They carried shotguns and rifles, as they had before.
"Nine," Butters said quietly, counting gunmen. "Ten. Eleven. Jesus."
"Keep counting," I said. "It might matter."
Butters nodded. "Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen? Sixteen."
"Stay down," I told everyone. "Stay away from the windows. Don't let them know anything."
Someone moved through the dark and crouched quietly next to me. "I called the police already," Charity said.
"They're responding to a big emergency," I replied. "Be a while before they get here." I noted two pairs of gunmen splitting off from the others, heading around either side of the house. "They're going around."
"I'll take the back," Charity said.
"You know how to use guns, too, huh?" I asked her.
I saw her teeth gleam in the dimness. "I like hammers and axes better. We'll know in a minute."
"Luck," I said, and she vanished back into the rear of the house.
Michael's house had been fortified the same way mine had been, with heavy-duty security doors that would resist anything short of breaching charges or the determined use of a ram. With anything like a little luck, they might try the doors, find them tough, and waste some time figuring it out.
But Nicodemus didn't leave room for luck in his plans. Eight men started carefully toward the front door over the lawn. Two of them were carrying small charges of plastic explosives. Of course, he'd already scoped the place out. Or maybe he just planned to blow the door off its hinges even if it was made of painted paper.
Dammit, I wasn't a soldier. I didn't have training in the whole tactical thing. But if it was me, and I wanted to get inside a house where I expected at least a little bit of fight, it might be smart to go in from two directions at once. Maybe I'd have most of my guys coming from the front, and just a few from the back, to reduce the chances of them massacring one another by mistake. For that matter, maybe I'd just put a few guys on the back door to plug anyone who tried to run away.
Of course, the whole point of breaching a room is to do it when you aren't expected. And they were. That gave us at least a little advantage, right?
Sure it did.
"They're going to blow the door," I said to Butters. "And maybe toss in a few flashbangs, and then they'll roll in here and start shooting. Get over there behind the couch and wait for them. Soon as that door opens, start shooting through it."
Butters swallowed, and nodded in a jerky motion. His face was pale and beaded with cold sweat. "Right." He crawled over to the couch.
Meanwhile, I went to the wall beside the staircase that went upstairs. When the door blew, it would slam open, or if it got taken off the hinges, fly back onto the staircase. I would crouch beside the staircase, where most of my body would be hidden except for my gun arm and my head. I got into position and put the gun down on the floor where I could find it easily.
Then I waited.
Ten seconds later, there was a sound like a huge hammer hitting a flat rock, and a sensation like standing in surf and being hit in the chest with a wave, only less substantial. The door flew open. I could barely get the air out of my chest, but I flicked my hand at the door and muttered, "Ventas servitas."
A gust of powerful wind hit the doorway from my side just as several small objects tumbled in from the other side, and they fell back to the porch with dull thumps before there was a wash of light and sound that would have obliterated my vision if I hadn't already shielded my eyes with my hand. A couple of wordless cries of confusion went up from the squires outside, and exhaustion from the effort made my vision narrow to a tunnel. I saw someone move in the doorway, and then Butters opened up with the shotgun.
I grabbed my pistol, aimed it at the doorway, and fired two rounds as quickly as I could aim them. A man was knocked down, and while I'd like to claim credit for being an awesome gunslinger, odds were better that it was Butters and his shotgun who were responsible.
There wasn't time for anything more than that. Fanatics they might be, but they weren't stupid. It took them less than a couple of seconds to clear away from the porch and our lines of fire. Even the guy who went down scrabbled away, leaving a smear of blood behind him as he did.
I stopped shooting, frustrated at the lack of targets, but Butters kept pumping shell after shell into the empty doorway. He didn't stop until the shotgun clicked on an empty chamber three or four times.
I darted a look at him, to find him staring at the doorway, trembling visibly, his face pale as a sheet.
"Dude," I said. "Reload."
He stared at me with goggle-eyes for a second, then jerked his head in a nod and started fumbling at one of his pockets. I waited until he had the shotgun reloaded and said, "Cover the door. I'm going to check on Charity."
"Right," he said.
I turned and paced toward the back of the house, trying to remember where the walls were so that I didn't walk into them-and as I rounded the corner nearly walked into a squire with a shotgun.
No time to think. I swept my staff from left to right, knocking it against the shotgun. The weakened grip of my left hand didn't give me a lot of leverage, but when fire and thunder bloomed from the barrel, instead of dying I reeled in sudden agony at the pain of the sound so near my eardrum, so it was enough. The squire knocked the staff from my weak grip with a slash of the shotgun's barrel.
I shot him twice in the stomach with my big revolver.
He let out a gasp and went down, and I kicked the shotgun out of his hands as he fell.
Behind him, his partner drew a bead on me with an assault carbine and had me dead to rights. Terror spiked through me. I tried to fling myself away, knowing as I did that it wouldn't do me any good.
Uriel melted out of the shadows behind the second squire with his kitchen knife, and opened both of the squire's big arteries and his windpipe with a single slice. The man collapsed, and Uriel rode him to the floor, pinning the assault rifle down with one hand for a few seconds, until the squire stopped struggling.
He looked up at me, his expression sickened.

I stared at the two squires. They'd come in the back.
The mortals were being protective of the archangel, risking their own lives.

Because they believed he was mortal.
And he didn't correct them. And resorted to using a knife in combat.

EDIT
OK, I am going to look into that world building and read up on the later books in the series again, but that is all I can promise right now. Until then consider the subsoul matter on hold
Fair enough.
 
Last edited:
Not looking mortal, being mortal.
Nicodemus sent assassins to the Carpenter house he was in at the end of Skin Game, which would be the sort of thing that Anduriel would have warned against, and physically prevented, if he was an immortal.

Not to mention MacAnally.
Angels can be killed. That doesn't stop them being angels.

Mortal =/= human, and mortal =/= doesn't have subsouls. You are conflating "can be killed" and "can't have a developed soul structure". Which is... strange to say the least.

Like, if we go back to exalted, unless I am mistaken you don't necessarily need spirit killers to kill beings with developed soul structures (the single best example being 2E infernal exalts themselves, ironically, from what I understand). So @DragonParadox there's no contradiction here.

Hell, even Lash can easily be explained if we assume that what Lash comes to fear is some sort of personality reformatting, and she's operating under summon rules (i.e. doesn't actually die when killed in terms of being Lasciel's soul organ).
Yes, though you would need something to heal the 10 dice of Lethal they would suffer in the process.
Yeah, sure. I think we should offer our minions an out, at least as soon as we get Devil-Refining Cauldron. An option of becoming human and a settlement of cash to start a new life.

EDIT2: Also, who says we are seeing Uriel in that quote? That could well be Uriel's fetich (or the equivalent of humaniform jouten) or equivalent, who did indeed wave their immortality to give power to Michael. The mechanics aren't exactly the same, but I could see it.
 
Last edited:
Angels can be killed. That doesn't stop them being angels.
Immortals can be killed and come back to life.
At least that's Butcher's ruling, even though we haven't seen it happen in the series.

Capital A- angels cant be killed as far as we know. Not in the Dresden Files. There are no dead angels I have heard of in the setting, not even during the Fall. The closest you come to that determination is Word of Jim with regards to the Eye of Balor and an angel essentially committing suicide by doing nothing passive or active. And it doesnt say it would stick.

The QM asked to table the discussion about sub souls though, so I'll shut up now.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jun 4, 2023 at 3:38 PM, finished with 89 posts and 24 votes.
 
[X] [Stunt] As the eyes of her soul flare open a pang of want traces across her mind; a new-familiar sensation caught between hunger and curiosity.
—[X] What might even something like this hesitate over?
—[X] Almost despite herself the pupil's of Molly's unseen eyes unhinge like the jaws of a snake - tasting the shadows for the flavors of shame and regret.
 
[X] All Things Betray
-[X] [Stunt] As the eyes of her soul flare open a pang of want traces across her mind; a new-familiar sensation caught between hunger and curiosity.
—[X] What might even something like this hesitate over?
—[X] Almost despite herself the pupil's of Molly's unseen eyes unhinge like the jaws of a snake - tasting the shadows for the flavors of shame and regret.
 
Last edited:
[X] All Things Betray
-[X] STUNT: You do not pause your preparations, not even for a heartbeat. From Earth, your transition to fire, placing the candles at the four primary directions. And as you kneel to light them up, given a proper moment to mask what you are doing behind the motion of your hands and the tilt of your head, you focus, and look beyond this moment, to see and know what your enemy is most ashamed of.

I tried to work ritual preparations (specifically placing candles for fire element) into the stunt, and the primary focus is not to let it know we can see it. The more ignorant it is, the better. Also, which five elements are we using anyway?
 
Last edited:
Can y'all refresh my memory; just how much direct control of its victims does Nemesis have?

Obviously, they're not complete sock puppets. Too much personality remains in the victims for that, but do we know how, exactly, it works? Do the victims even realize they have been infected with something? Do their priorities and goals slowly change as the influence grows, or is the change immediate?
 
Back
Top