Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)Nothing in Molly's skillset lends her to being involved in the tech industry.
We didn't spec her to be a tech billionaire like Tony Stark; she's way more like Scrooge McDuck, if anything.
But we did? Craft is favored. It's not the top ability, but it's favored, and we are doing a lot with it. Molly is not an industrial arms manufacturer, but she's falls squarely into a "mystic smith" archetype, with some variations. She's a weapon maker for the magicals, and a weapon user. In the comic analogies, she's not Tony Stark yet, but she's a what-if Peter Parker who decided to start his own firm.

And a ton lends itself to Molly being involved in tech nidustry. Cyberdevils give us a natural advantage in this area. And before anyone says "but the masquerade", White Court controls porn industry. This is similar. And I am willing to bet that Mikaboshi has his own cyberdevils behind the Great Firewall of China. We are already in tech nidustry with our diamonds. We just need to make the next step. And if our Kingdom is technologically advanced, then proliferating those advancements is a logical step.
2)We have, and will have, expenses that need servicing.
Yes, which is why our only way forward if we ever want minions, is tech industry, where billions in profits are.
THAT draws attention.
White Court controls porn industry.
 
But we did? Craft is favored. It's not the top ability, but it's favored, and we are doing a lot with it. Molly is not an industrial arms manufacturer, but she's falls squarely into a "mystic smith" archetype, with some variations. She's a weapon maker for the magicals, and a weapon user. In the comic analogies, she's not Tony Stark yet, but she's a what-if Peter Parker who decided to start his own firm.

And a ton lends itself to Molly being involved in tech nidustry. Cyberdevils give us a natural advantage in this area. And before anyone says "but the masquerade", White Court controls porn industry. This is similar. And I am willing to bet that Mikaboshi has his own cyberdevils behind the Great Firewall of China. We are already in tech nidustry with our diamonds. We just need to make the next step. And if our Kingdom is technologically advanced, then proliferating those advancements is a logical step.
We didn't. We made Molly a crafter, an artisan, not an industrialist.

Tech is not a Key Ability.
Neither is Science.
Nor Finance.

Empathy and Etiquette both are, but that just makes us good at the social part of business, not the technical side.


Mikaboshi is a Yama King.He does not operate openly in the mortal world, and frankly there's very little chance he needs money. A person who can literally bestow Resources backgrounds on minions by fiat is not fucking around in the tech industry for cash or influence.

Yes, which is why our only way forward if we ever want minions, is tech industry, where billions in profits are.
Like I've pointed out before in this post?
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files) Crossover - Fantasy

@DragonParadox Platinum-group metal transmutation: Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesis_of_precious_metals Molybednum($20) to ruthenium(~$2000) to rhodium(~$750,000) is the highest yield pathway here. Rhodium is currently down to around $500k a kilogram in 2022; dunno what it...

Platinum-group metal transmutation literally gives you >1000x yield for stuff like transmuting Molybednum to Ruthenium to Rhodium then flogging the more valuable metal on the metal futures market.

Same scam as the synthetic diamonds, only this time it's "trace metal concentration out of seawater" by a proprietary process, or "sonic-initiated transmutation" or something of the sort.
There is literally no legitimate technological industry that has that sort of payoff.

White Court controls porn industry.
Yes.
The porn industry is not a strategic infrastructure sector, nor did the White Court build their control over it in the course of a year or so. They're not even vaguely similar scenarios.
 
If Molly was out to cannibalize people's power, she'd be out hunting small fry, not sitting at a meeting.
Something like Nemesis would be very dangerous game to pull that with; lions generally dont attempt to hunt crocodiles or hippos, and definitely not solo.
Yeah, it doesn't fit politically, but mystically, it fits. And this is our first Halloween since getting our Crown and we're running mostly on instinct. Of course our first "feeding" is going to be on accident from doing something else. That's what you'd expect when you give a mortal who doesn't know this stuff an immortal mantle and no instruction manual. But it looks like the same power transfer every other immortal tries to do this time of year, so it doesn't make us necessarily any more of a threat compared to them as long as it's similarly time-locked. And it's not like Mab can necessarily tell it isn't from seeing us use it on the one day of the year where a bunch of mystical beings gain the ability to pull approximately the same thing.

And the swords may be spirit killers, but I really doubt that they eat what they kill the way MiM does. It probably doesn't look like the same thing to mystical sight.

So yeah, that's what I meant.
 
We didn't. We made Molly a crafter, an artisan, not an industrialist.

Tech is not a Key Ability.
Neither is Science.
Nor Finance.

Empathy and Etiquette both are, but that just makes us good at the social part of business, not the technical side.
We have minions to help there, communal dice pools, and the kingdom technology to fail back on. Cyberdevils give us a powerful leg up on stock exchange, and any and all software startups and services. Not doing that because it goes against our nebulous "concept" is at best strange, when we are already a technology startup. We can develop in that direction.
Mikaboshi is a Yama King.He does not operate openly in the mortal world, and frankly there's very little chance he needs money. A person who can literally bestow Resources backgrounds on minions by fiat is not fucking around in the tech industry for cash or influence.
That's wrong. Canonically Mikaboshi is manipulating stock exchange, regularly visits and does business in the MIddle Kingdom, and employs mortals:
Mikaboshi is obsessed with becoming the Demon Em-
peror. To accomplish this he seeks to expand his holdings
in the Yomi World and the Middle Kingdom.
...
Some akuma claim to have seen Mikaboshi in a com-
pletely different guise. In these cases, the witnesses claim
that the Yama King appeared as a Japanese man with
mechanical hands, dressed in a finely tailored suit. It is
rumored that this is how he dresses when he finds it
necessary to take care of business in the Middle Kingdom
personally, something he does with a frequency that dis-
turbs the other Yama Kings.
...

More than any other
Yama King, Mikaboshi employs Lightning People, and
through them he manipulates the stock exchange to protect
his holdings in the Middle Kingdom and devastate those of
his rivals, Mikaboshi's minions are distinct from other Japa-
nese corporate businessmen only in that few businessmen
literally consume the living flesh of their rivals and strive to
corrupt the natural balance. Only malice takes precedence
over profit, and then only on special occasions.
The Lord of the Wicked City also uses mortals with an
effectiveness that the other Yama Kings envy. Yakuza en-
forcers, corporate raiders and government officials all labor,
sometimes unknowingly, to expand the source of his power
— the cities of the East and the corruption that breeds there.
And he's not the only one. Ravana has multiple militaries inflitrated to the general level by his Raksha:
Ravana has not. He believes he knows how
to harvest the souls of the nuclear dead. Better
yet, if the nuclear exchange is large enough, he
believes he could rip up the devastated dragon
lines of the surrounding countries and channel
them directly into his ruined hell. So, while
Ravana rocks and mutters to himself in his writh-
ing demon keep, his loyal rakshas assume the
guises of Indian, Pakistani and Chinese generals

and nuclear officials. And all of them say the
same thing, chanting it like a mantra: "We must
not back down."
Platinum-group metal transmutation literally gives you >1000x yield for stuff like transmuting Molybednum to Ruthenium to Rhodium then flogging the more valuable metal on the metal futures market.
And like I mentioned previously, that's not tenable. I literally ran calculations for you. Or a useful application of our time. Setting up businesses to be run by hyper-competent exaltation-backed loyal minions is far better. And more helpful in the service of protecting Creation. "Make the world like your Hell to establish a connection and ascend to the throne of heavens" is a canon tactic a number of Yama kings are following. We can do that too, only with more benefits for mortals.
Yes.
The porn industry is not a strategic infrastructure sector, nor did the White Court build their control over it in the course of a year or so. They're not even vaguely similar scenarios.
MIkaboshi controls Chinese stock exchange, and Ravana has his hands on nuclear launch codes.
 
If she is in the never-never then our safe return isn't part of the deal. But I am not worried about that if we are left trapped in Winter we are at our most powerful. Maybe we will get the chance to kill a few Fetches on our way out.
Mab is unlikely to do stuff like this just to be a bastard. She'll do what's best for Winter's interests and then her own in that order. Picking fights when she's just now getting everything normalized is a poor return on today's negotiations.

Also, -3 difficulty is nice, but still not the equivalent increase in ability as being in the heart of a major faction's power.
Kind of unavoidable by her nature Molly is rapidly going to become the biggest tech company, richest person etc in the world. And that is honestly with Molly only throwing a few AP out once in a while.
Only if we choose to develop that way. Right now we don't have the capability and won't without diverting our exp spending towards mundane things.
Frankly I'm half expecting a Naagloshii interrupt to the ritual, Nemesis might not be able to force the ambush predator into atacking the Winter Queen head on, but we should assume that assets are going to tasked with disrupting the ritual once we start, so informing Mab of potentially compromised hostiles in the area might be wise.
The Naagoloshi is in the same weight class as Mab by technically, but screwing with her like this would be very bad for it.They basically mark the opposite ends of the same spirit category.

If it was lucky she'd just kill it, instead of beating it into submission and taking it home to make into an example out of. But Maeve, so she'd probably get mean about it even by high Winter nobility standards.

She has Anansi the Spider in her freezer, some two-bit shape shifting mailman isn't going give her trouble even if they're scary to us.
Thinking about it buying up 3 dots of ally winter, and spend a favor for the last 2 dot would be pretty good investment.
I don't think we should be hasty, and we need to think about the consequences of our purchases.

Allies 5 Winter is very useful, but buying it doesn't just bring benefits.

Firstly, fey politics would probably become a major thing we need to deal with. Both internal to the Winter and between them and Summer/the wyldefey. Not necessarily the end of the world, but it's still something to consider. Especially since if mismanaged being close to Winter makes it easy to become enemies with Summer on a day to day level, which is a pain.

Which brings us to the other point; the rest of the supernatural and supernatural adjacent world.

If we emerge on the stage as a highly places ally of Winter and no one else that implicitly puts us under their umbrella.

To a degree you can't avoid stuff like that while forming connections, but such a strong and immediate position could make it difficult to establish relationships and the appearance of true independence.

Better to stick the big favors in our pocket and trade little ones for a while, and get some formal relationships going with more than one group before jumping in deep with anyone.

First rule of a windfall is to avoid letting it burn a hole in your pocket.
 
Votes as they stand.

Honestly it is so one sided we might as well as call it.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jun 3, 2023 at 8:36 AM, finished with 167 posts and 34 votes.
 
As an aside, we should look at getting that curse charm that would out Nemesis and the project charm that screws organized effort sometime soon after our hell.

They're good for general use, and if we're making our bones punching nemesis in the face we might as well hit as hard as possible.

Especially since we can probably stack ETE since it keys by project or location and not faction or people.

So hit its effort to infiltrate reality, efforts to subvert X faction(s), efforts to stop us from nerfing them, and similar. The more we know the more refined our dickery can be, and Molly has a bit of a thing about learning secrets.

We could plausibly create a situation where they're technically working multiple projects at the same time and end up eating lots of difficulty on everything.*

Then we repeatedly tase nemesis in the balls with SSC and let it try to social its way out of the delicate and now surprisingly complicated situations it finds itself in.

Stacking it higher than +4 total seems unfair, but I don't actually see a reason it couldn't do more beyond rule zero/sanity.

Not something to try right off the bat, but we can work our way up to it. We need a counter to however it'll adjust to what we've already done anyway, so we might as well be working towards something.

* Really this would be a lot of fun to do all over the place once we can. Think the council would pay us to put a nearly impossible to resist doom stack of curses on the red court once a month or so?
 
Additional thing I noticed which is worth mentioning as part of our potential step up in supernatural political activity; HWT actually has a really nice permanent effect stapled on the end:

hell-WalKer teChnique (•••)
Attuning herself to the emanations of the Spirit
World, the Infernal paces about until she finds a hidden path that leads between worlds, and sets her feet upon it. System: Spend 1 Essence and roll Wits + Survival against a difficulty of the local Gauntlet. Success transports the character into the Penumbra. By raising the difficul- ty by 1 (to a maximum of 9) and spending 1 additional Essence per ally, the Infernal can also draw other willing characters into the Spirit World with her. This Charm may
also be used in reverse to return to the material world. The character also permanently gains the ability to understand the language of spirits and to make herself
clearly understood by them.

The nevernever travel isn't super useful to us, but our other language options are to demand everyone speak to us in mortal tongues, force source code compliance on them, or learn more languages.

There's a definite advantage to being a "native speaker" and be certain they'll always understand what you're saying rather than getting caught on linguistic issues because we're talking to a demon that knows only knows English on a technical level or something.

What we need now are some antishaping defences
Personally I'd start with CCI, because it's a perfect defense and sort of a poor man's anti-shaping charm as implied in this quote chain:
Counter-Conceptual interposition is what happens when you start giving reality a stroke, that would work against time powers.
Not as good as the dedicated one, but we need both types of defense as soon as possible and that a lot of exp.

Full coverage on one end with partial coverage on the other isn't a bad place to start.
 
Tech is not a Key Ability.
Neither is Science.
Nor Finance.
Exalted Molly can make tech more advanced then mortal can hope to make pretty easily. And also back up her organizations with Exalted buffs, hard to compete against the company that cost half, while preforming 5 times better/faster then all others. And with perfectly loyal cyberdemons, running the books preventing any fraud.

@DragonParadox will the charm the Pentacle and the Scepter work on sorcery path magic.
 
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We need to find another vessel to store Lash in. We aren't going to have enough spare XP to buy Devil-Refining Cauldron (••••) (16 XP) for a long time. Is there anyone that we could trade for such a vessel?
 
We need to find another vessel to store Lash in. We aren't going to have enough spare XP to buy Devil-Refining Cauldron (••••) (16 XP) for a long time. Is there anyone that we could trade for such a vessel?
She's stable right now, don't see a reason to rush it.

She's also mostly knowledge-power rather than anything else because she has to fit in Harry's soul, so I don't think she needs anything that custom. I bet that something like an exalted crafting project grade version of Bob's skull would work fine.

Edit:

Especially if we stick her in a vessel that stays in the (probably warded) palace of our hell-world at all times.

That should be hard enough to get to that we can take our time for something more robust if needed.
 
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She's stable right now, don't see a reason to rush it.

She's also mostly knowledge-power rather than anything else because she has to fit in Harry's soul, so I don't think she needs anything that custom. I bet that something like an exalted crafting project grade version of Bob's skull would work fine.

Edit:

Especially if we stick her in a vessel that stays in the (probably warded) palace of our hell-world at all times.

That should be hard enough to get to that we can take our time for something more robust if needed.
It becomes a problem if Harry hears about out our purging nemesis and Lash connects the dots.
 
Exalted Molly can make tech more advanced then mortal can hope to make pretty easily. And also back up her organizations with Exalted buffs, hard to compete against the company that cost half, while preforming 5 times better/faster then all others. And with perfectly loyal cyberdemons, running the books preventing any fraud.

@DragonParadox will the charm the Pentacle and the Scepter work on sorcery path magic.

Yes, that is intended

Anyway vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 3, 2023 at 10:30 AM, finished with 176 posts and 34 votes.
 
It becomes a problem if Harry hears about out our purging nemesis and Lash connects the dots.
That could start a timer, though if point out that there are a number of "screw outsiders" powers that don't necessarily work as well on other things.

That said, it takes time to build towards an actual response. Lash isn't likely to do anything hasty because that's close to game over for her anyway.

Trading isn't the way to go. We can likely do as good or better as is available on the open market on short notice during a group ritual like we did with the ward, and even then certainty probably requires further exalted cheating.

That's not to say no one else can make a worthwhile item; but for something this esoteric anything immediately available will likely be suboptimal, and if we can take our time we can cheat it ourselves.

If we wanted a specific high level artifact retrieved, or to commission something more common in scope then the equation might change. Though I personally wouldn't go for it.

Lash needs some further character development to really make it out of the " probably needs MiM'd" category if I've got the timeline right.

She gets there, but it isn't an inevitable thing and sticking our nose in doesn't necessarily improve the situation.
 
Well Pentacle and the Scepter just jumped up in value, with it Molly can hit -5DC for sorcery path magic. Not a big difference for Exalted Molly, but Molly clones, would also benefit from it and the reduction in path cost for the clones is pretty big for them.

Thou even without it the we really should get the Clone charms as soon a possible, since they can benfit from Molly's DC reducers -4DC, making them the greatest path users after Exalted Molly. And with them we could make some major rituals that a normal mortal could not, or even exalted Molly could hit alone.
 
We have minions to help there, communal dice pools, and the kingdom technology to fail back on. Cyberdevils give us a powerful leg up on stock exchange, and any and all software startups and services. Not doing that because it goes against our nebulous "concept" is at best strange, when we are already a technology startup. We can develop in that direction.
Which makes us no different from every other would be tech millionaire out there.
We have no innate competitive advantage at Technology due to our Exalted nature, the way we do when we're doing Craft or Empathy-based tasks.

I repeat, Technology is not a Key Ability for us. Neither is Science or Finance.

Molly with Int 4, Tech 4 and minions has no advantage against, say, NotStark or NotLuthor(or more likely, NotJobs and NotGates) with Int 4, Tech 4 and minions.
And unlike them, we cannot afford to spend most of our week grinding corporate bullshit. This isn't a Tycoon game.

You're essentially asking that we spend extra XP to go outside our specialization in order to only achieve rough equivalence with base mortals who can afford much greater time investment in business matters.
Thats crazy.

That's wrong. Canonically Mikaboshi is manipulating stock exchange, regularly visits and does business in the MIddle Kingdom, and employs mortals:
Mikaboshi is trying to infiltrate the Chinese economy, and he does so in the face of opposition by both rival Yama Kings, loyal kuejin and the shen. And thats in canon Kindred of the East, where we're supposed to pretend the Syndicate and the Technocracy dont exist.

Not in ExWoD.

Its especially unlikely to be true in this AU, because Lightning People are the Kindred of the East term for wizards, and wizards in this setting already have trouble with tech bane, never mind that working for a Yama King in this setting would put them in the sights of Kuejin and the White Council and the Fae.

Seriously, a world where one Yama King controlled the stock market of a top three world economy would look very different from this one.
And Mikaboshi would already be Demon Emperor.
And he's not the only one. Ravana has multiple militaries inflitrated to the general level by his Raksha:
Infiltrators do not actually run an organization.
Because given that his current goal appears to be nuclear holocaust, if Ravana's infiltrators were anywhere near the levers of power in this AU or in canon, South East Asia would already be a radioactive crater.

You cannot simultaneously make the argument that Ravana has nuclear launch codes and Mikaboshi controls the Chinese economy. They are mutually exclusive.
And frankly, incompatible with a largely human-run world.

And like I mentioned previously, that's not tenable. I literally ran calculations for you. Or a useful application of our time. Setting up businesses to be run by hyper-competent exaltation-backed loyal minions is far better. And more helpful in the service of protecting Creation. "Make the world like your Hell to establish a connection and ascend to the throne of heavens" is a canon tactic a number of Yama kings are following. We can do that too, only with more benefits for mortals.
-I distinctly remember refuting your arguments. You were wrong then, and are still wrong now.


-Hyper-competent minions? My dude, Molly's charm tree doesnt even have Training charms that endow non-combat abilities to her minions. And we sure as fuck have no interest in spending the multiple years it takes to train trustworthy personnel to plausibly run technology businesses.


-Seriously, what kind of return do you expect to make in technology?
Apple is the third most valuable company in the world, and went from $110 billion in 2009 to an all-time high of $2.889 trillion in 2021, which is a jump of 26x in valuation over 12 years.

Nvidia went from roughly $9.2 billion in 2010 to an all-time high market cap of $961 billion this year, which is 100x over 13 years. The Facebook IPO in 2012 was $104 billion, and they have a current market cap of $698 billion in 2023, which is roughly a 6.5x jump over 11 years.

Those are all public companies that have to worry about shareholders and government disclosures and all the regulatory framework around technology industries.You cant just show up and go "Because Im Exalted" and imagine that frees you from meeting the standards for scrutiny of every other business out there.

And we cant afford that level of scrutiny.


We can perform better, in a shorter time frame, with less scrutiny and less effort, by staying out of technology, which is a high visibility, high scrutiny industry where you have to show your work, and simply feeding high value industrial and precious metals into the world economy and reinvesting those proceeds.

Because in raw materials, you dont have to show your work, just your products.
Not to mention that said raw materials are also a viable medium of currency in the supernatural, where things like gold and gems are usually used as currency.


MIkaboshi controls Chinese stock exchange, and Ravana has his hands on nuclear launch codes.
Mikaboshi has some(covert) influence in the Far East economy, he doesnt have control. Not in canon, and certainly not in ExWoD. The simple fact that kuejin Scarlet Screens are supposed to be a thing in the canon setting is prima facie evidence that he doesnt control the Chinese stock exchange.

And Ravana does not have his hands on nuclear launch codes, he has infiltrators pushing for nuclear escalation.
Not the same thing. If he had his hands on nukes, he'd have already used them.
Because thats his canon goal.
 
intellectual 4 tech 4 = a dice pool of 18 with -4DC reduction. Even for a difficult 10 task outright impossible for a mortal Molly would average around 3-4 success. It a trivial investment of XP and time to turn out some super tech, and become more powerful then most nations.
 
Yes, that is intended
Well Pentacle and the Scepter just jumped up in value, with it Molly can hit -5DC for sorcery path magic. Not a big difference for Exalted Molly, but Molly clones, would also benefit from it and the reduction in path cost for the clones is pretty big for them.

Thou even without it the we really should get the Clone charms as soon a possible, since they can benfit from Molly's DC reducers -4DC, making them the greatest path users after Exalted Molly. And with them we could make some major rituals that a normal mortal could not, or even exalted Molly could hit alone.

Does that essence reduction count toward mana/casting resources for mortal sorcery where applicable?

4 dots is kind of a lot, but getting a free mana and to stack with it for mortal sorcery would almost make it worth it. Definitely so if it uses something like the conversion table for the Solar Essence-Lending Technique charm, though taken literal it's more of a Chi boost than anything else.

Which makes us no different from every other would be tech millionaire out there.
We have no innate competitive advantage at Technology due to our Exalted nature, the way we do when we're doing Craft or Empathy-based tasks.

I repeat, Technology is not a Key Ability for us. Neither is Science or Finance.

Molly with Int 4, Tech 4 and minions has no advantage against, say, NotStark or NotLuthor(or more likely, NotJobs and NotGates) with Int 4, Tech 4 and minions.
And unlike them, we cannot afford to spend most of our week grinding corporate bullshit. This isn't a Tycoon game.

You're essentially asking that we spend extra XP to go outside our specialization in order to only achieve rough equivalence with base mortals who can afford much greater time investment in business matters.
Thats crazy.


Mikaboshi is trying to infiltrate the Chinese economy, and he does so in the face of opposition by both rival Yama Kings, loyal kuejin and the shen. And thats in canon Kindred of the East, where we're supposed to pretend the Syndicate and the Technocracy dont exist.

Not in ExWoD.

Its especially unlikely to be true in this AU, because Lightning People are the Kindred of the East term for wizards, and wizards in this setting already have trouble with tech bane, never mind that working for a Yama King in this setting would put them in the sights of Kuejin and the White Council and the Fae.

Seriously, a world where one Yama King controlled the stock market of a top three world economy would look very different from this one.
And Mikaboshi would already be Demon Emperor.

Infiltrators do not actually run an organization.
Because given that his current goal appears to be nuclear holocaust, if Ravana's infiltrators were anywhere near the levers of power in this AU or in canon, South East Asia would already be a radioactive crater.

You cannot simultaneously make the argument that Ravana has nuclear launch codes and Mikaboshi controls the Chinese economy. They are mutually exclusive.
And frankly, incompatible with a largely human-run world.


-I distinctly remember refuting your arguments. You were wrong then, and are still wrong now.


-Hyper-competent minions? My dude, Molly's charm tree doesnt even have Training charms that endow non-combat abilities to her minions. And we sure as fuck have no interest in spending the multiple years it takes to train trustworthy personnel to plausibly run technology businesses.


-Seriously, what kind of return do you expect to make in technology?
Apple is the third most valuable company in the world, and went from $110 billion in 2009 to an all-time high of $2.889 trillion in 2021, which is a jump of 26x in valuation over 12 years.

Nvidia went from roughly $9.2 billion in 2010 to an all-time high market cap of $961 billion this year, which is 100x over 13 years. The Facebook IPO in 2012 was $104 billion, and they have a current market cap of $698 billion in 2023, which is roughly a 6.5x jump over 11 years.

Those are all public companies that have to worry about shareholders and government disclosures and all the regulatory framework around technology industries.You cant just show up and go "Because Im Exalted" and imagine that frees you from meeting the standards for scrutiny of every other business out there.

And we cant afford that level of scrutiny.


We can perform better, in a shorter time frame, with less scrutiny and less effort, by staying out of technology, which is a high visibility, high scrutiny industry where you have to show your work, and simply feeding high value industrial and precious metals into the world economy and reinvesting those proceeds.

Because in raw materials, you dont have to show your work, just your products.
Not to mention that said raw materials are also a viable medium of currency in the supernatural, where things like gold and gems are usually used as currency.



Mikaboshi has some(covert) influence in the Far East economy, he doesnt have control. Not in canon, and certainly not in ExWoD. The simple fact that kuejin Scarlet Screens are supposed to be a thing in the canon setting is prima facie evidence that he doesnt control the Chinese stock exchange.

And Ravana does not have his hands on nuclear launch codes, he has infiltrators pushing for nuclear escalation.
Not the same thing. If he had his hands on nukes, he'd have already used them.
Because thats his canon goal.
I don't find becoming a tech billionaire likely within a major shift in priorities either, but I'm almost morbidly curious about what we could do if material trading is possible out of our hell.

I wouldn't want tech exchanges, not at first, but we've got an in with Uncle Sam and import/export taxes are a potentially low maintenance income source once we get going.
Edit:

intellectual 4 tech 4 = a dice pool of 18 with -4DC reduction. Even for a difficult 10 task outright impossible for a mortal Molly would average around 3-4 success. It a trivial investment of XP and time to turn out some super tech, and become more powerful then most nations.
This assumes tech development happens in once shot bursts by individuals, and not as extended projects across years where mortals dump in hundreds of dice to trickle their way through the tech tree.
 
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Which makes us no different from every other would be tech millionaire out there.
We have no innate competitive advantage at Technology due to our Exalted nature, the way we do when we're doing Craft or Empathy-based tasks.

I repeat, Technology is not a Key Ability for us. Neither is Science or Finance.

Molly with Int 4, Tech 4 and minions has no advantage against, say, NotStark or NotLuthor(or more likely, NotJobs and NotGates) with Int 4, Tech 4 and minions.
And unlike them, we cannot afford to spend most of our week grinding corporate bullshit. This isn't a Tycoon game.

You're essentially asking that we spend extra XP to go outside our specialization in order to only achieve rough equivalence with base mortals who can afford much greater time investment in business matters.
Thats crazy.
Those guys don't have non-humans perfectly loyals infomorph minions. There's no technocracy or any similar faction in Dresden Files. That's an unoccupied "ecological niche".
Mikaboshi is trying to infiltrate the Chinese economy, and he does so in the face of opposition by both rival Yama Kings, loyal kuejin and the shen. And thats in canon Kindred of the East, where we're supposed to pretend the Syndicate and the Technocracy dont exist.

Not in ExWoD.

Its especially unlikely to be true in this AU, because Lightning People are the Kindred of the East term for wizards, and wizards in this setting already have trouble with tech bane, never mind that working for a Yama King in this setting would put them in the sights of Kuejin and the White Council and the Fae.

Seriously, a world where one Yama King controlled the stock market of a top three world economy would look very different from this one.
And Mikaboshi would already be Demon Emperor.
Yet, that's still what it says in the book. "Yama Kings don't participate as active and big players in the real world" is just plain wrong.
Infiltrators do not actually run an organization.
Because given that his current goal appears to be nuclear holocaust, if Ravana's infiltrators were anywhere near the levers of power in this AU or in canon, South East Asia would already be a radioactive crater.

You cannot simultaneously make the argument that Ravana has nuclear launch codes and Mikaboshi controls the Chinese economy. They are mutually exclusive.
And frankly, incompatible with a largely human-run world.
They both have a lot of power in Chinese economy and eastern political world is what I am saying, which is refuting your words.
-Hyper-competent minions? My dude, Molly's charm tree doesnt even have Training charms that endow non-combat abilities to her minions. And we sure as fuck have no interest in spending the multiple years it takes to train trustworthy personnel to plausibly run technology businesses.
Molly's training charm allows for manipulation improvement, which is important in corporate world.
-Seriously, what kind of return do you expect to make in technology?
Apple is the third most valuable company in the world, and went from $110 billion in 2009 to an all-time high of $2.889 trillion in 2021, which is a jump of 26x in valuation over 12 years.

Nvidia went from roughly $9.2 billion in 2010 to an all-time high market cap of $961 billion this year, which is 100x over 13 years. The Facebook IPO in 2012 was $104 billion, and they have a current market cap of $698 billion in 2023, which is roughly a 6.5x jump over 11 years.

Those are all public companies that have to worry about shareholders and government disclosures and all the regulatory framework around technology industries.You cant just show up and go "Because Im Exalted" and imagine that frees you from meeting the standards for scrutiny of every other business out there.

And we cant afford that level of scrutiny.
I expect us to outperform them by at least an order of magnitude, easily. With nothing else but our kingdom charm, which we'd be buying anyway.
 
Exalted Molly can make tech more advanced then mortal can hope to make pretty easily. And also back up her organizations with Exalted buffs, hard to compete against the company that cost half, while preforming 5 times better/faster then all others. And with perfectly loyal cyberdemons, running the books preventing any fraud.

@DragonParadox will the charm the Pentacle and the Scepter work on sorcery path magic.
That means fuckall. If you are interested in human technology, it has to be human reproducible at scale.
Molly's ability to make stuff more advanced than modern state of the art makes her an artisan, not an industrialist. If human manufacturers cannot replicate the process, its of limited applicability.

There's many an advanced tech still in the labs because nobody is able to mass produce it affordably.

===
A lot of these arguments are predicated on grave misunderstandings of how the real world economy works.

Technology companies hold press conferences for researchers and business analysts to explain how their technology works and what they expect to be upcoming. Businesses publish regular disclosures for stock analysts.
A lot of your financials and business workings come under scrutiny.

The idea you can just stick a bunch of cyberdevils in a sweatshop and no-one will ask questions about who or where or how is fantasy.
And not the good fantasy.
Yes, that is intended

Anyway vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 3, 2023 at 10:30 AM, finished with 176 posts and 34 votes.
This on the other hand is welcome news.
And makes the Pentacle and Scepter jump in priority.
I don't find becoming a tech billionaire likely within a major shift in priorities either, but I'm almost morbidly curious about what we could do if material trading is possible out of our hell.

I wouldn't want tech exchanges, not at first, but we've got an in with Uncle Sam and import/export taxes are a potentially low maintenance income source once we get going.
Im not even bothering with out of our Hell.
Some metals are relatively rare and high value industrial metals; Rhodium, for example, has an annual global production of around 30 tons, and is worth way, way more than gold, with use in stuff like catalytic converters.

And transmutation is an entirely physical process that doesnt need magic.
If you actually get the Exalted crafting charm, or high-end Alchemy, it simply becomes a lot easier; if you can make magical materials, you can rearrange mundane matter.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 3, 2023 at 12:34 PM, finished with 184 posts and 34 votes.
 
Arc 7 Post 23: On Wings of Ice and Thunder
On Wings of Ice and Thunder

31th of October 2006 A.D.

"Deal," you snap back after what feels like a long to you but can't have been more than twenty seconds. "What are we going to...?"

"Follow," she motions. How Mab manages to head towards the door at a pace that is almost a run without seeming hurried you are not sure, but something tells you she isn't even using magic for it. Still you have the time to call out thanks to Mac and grab a lemon Popsicle from the bar. "Thanks, keep the change bye."

As you slide in one back door of Mab's new ride she steps in on the other side. A Sidhe in a suit and a very non-faerie-tale standard buzz cut takes the driver's seat, seeming very familiar with the ins and outs of an automatic gear box, though even so you are surprised to hear the queen of Winter call out a perfectly mundane address: "3843 N California Avenue."

As it turns out you are not going to California by car, fascinating as a thirty hour drive in Mab's company might be. According to Clippy that is the address of the McFetridge Sports Center, home of tennis courts, dance recitals and showcases and the Chicago Parks District's only indoor ice rink.

One would think ice fairies would be a bit more subtle about their presence. One would apparently be wrong.

Down wide roads and narrow, under the shade of trees grown in bounded squares of concrete the car that should not be real sped at the beck of Winter's mistress. What sounds like half a dozen dogs take to barking at your passage, their ears and noses sharper to the peril that drawn near than most. The Snow Queen, the Snow Queen in her sled drawn near, you think with oddly timed whimsy, though in this hour she is not concerned with any children save her own. As the streetlamps turn on one by one, the gloom between them only grows as clouds above them devour the light of stars and moon.

"Those clouds don't look very friendly," you hazard to the queen in question. "That's you right?"

A short sharp nod is her answer, before seeming to catch herself and add a moment later: "As you have surmised subtlety is not a cloak I wear easily, but sometimes the roar of thunder can hide one's steps as easily as silence may."

Obviously she means the actual roar of thunder. Why wouldn't she? Thundersnows are of course perfectly normal in October, you think sarcastically. Grumbling only a little you call dad to tell him you are OK and you'll be done in an hour and a half. While you would not go so far as to say he sounds reassured he also does not sound like he is about to armor up and come after you.

"I shall be laying a glamor on you, work no magic and do not act out of character and the power of the storm should hide yours," Mab says as you look up from the phone.

"What's my character?" you ask, putting the Clippy away.

"Harried handmaiden who would much rather be almost anywhere else than trying to keep up with me in a rage." Mab's voice crackles like breaking ice as she says so, causing you to throw a look to the electronics without meaning to. They are fine of course, her power is still wholly aligned with her purpose to matter the aesthetics.

"Got it." At the very least there won't be any shape-shifters short of Broken Seeker himself flying in this, you think looking up at the curtain of white that had started to fall lit from within by lightning crawling blue and green, not that you expect it to attack but the fewer eyes on this to start with the better.

"Turn on the windscreen wipers, you don't look very human driving around in this without them," you point out to the driver, biting back nervousness, just in time for the car to slide to a stop and the doors to snap open.

Seeing as Mab parts the blizzard as a ship parts the waves with her bow scurrying behind her is not difficult feat. The cold sharpens the mind and water whispers secrets a thousand miles distant. It's easier than it has any right to be to balance the arrogance of the Sidhe with the nervousness of being a frozen leaf on gale's wings.

The doors to the sports center snap open at Mab's approach to reveal a scene that is half frat party half old time feast, not that you have ever been to a frat party... that you will admit to your mother about but there are a bewildering number of plastic beer bongs being used to scarf down golden mead. Still better to think about those than what all the silvery, you guess titanium, chains and cuffs are being used for.

Perhaps the party has not gotten fully on the way yet, the satyrs' song was slow and rising still when when it cuts off abruptly, the spikes of ice half built under the hand of naiads, beautiful in spite of the drowned pallor of their skin, the caps that give the redcap their name are dull as all the company of Winter in this place looks towards the... throne at the center of the ice rink.

According to the laws of physics that thing that thing really should not be standing up, its eight slender uneven legs like a demented ice spider joining into a jagged mass that still flows in curves which fit smugly to the figure upon it. Pale as ice is Maeve and yet more alive than vibrant mortal woman could be, hers is a beauty less abstract than her mother's, a planet racing across the heavens to Mab's distant star.

Unnoticed among the sudden fervor you catch the precise moment in which Maeve, or the thing that had claimed her at least could have acted had it understood its peril, the spat of fleeting seconds before Mab usurped the power rising from the ice and all she said was: "Why Your Majesty, if you wanted to join us you had only to ask..."

A path well trod no doubt but one to which Mab's only answer is reaching out with the power of the blizzard at her back. Between one moment and the next Maeve's throne had become her prison, a pillar of ice that rises from ice covered floor to ceiling, in ways that are probably not good for the concrete.

"A pity you shall not be able to taunt the foe as you cast it out Majesty," Usum notes which should probably sound more insane than it does right now.

"Do you wish for solitude in weaving the spell?" Mab's creaking ice voice is in your ears and only in your ears.

As you open your mouth to say it does not matter you realize she's not asking about the particularities of the ritual but if you want an audience of winter fey to demonstrate your power to. Nemesis will know your name, anyone with arcane senses and a decent sense for what has been going on in the city so it might not be the worst idea to make it common knowledge. In Usum's words it will keep 'the chaff from getting above itself'... but then again Usum also thinks taunting a living madness from beyond the Gates is effective psychological warfare.

What do you reply?

[] Let them stay

[] Bid them go


OOC: So far so frosty. To be clear Mab herself is sticking around no matter what you choose to guard you, this is just a question of what happens to the other Winter Fey.
 
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The idea you can just stick a bunch of cyberdevils in a sweatshop and no-one will ask questions about who or where or how is fantasy.
And not the good fantasy.
Their is this new thing called AI capable of doing thing a human can do only it works without pay. Molly can skip about 2 decades ahead and start pumping out AI driven stuff now. We could replace all the worlds call centers for every company with cyberdemons since we don't have to pay them.

Also Enchanting path magic, just so long as people that work for Molly can reproduce it is enough. For example a simple device that make perfect Graphine by the ton would not be hard to make.
 
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