How? We are in a meeting right here and now. It's likely the dude will leave / escape after the meeting is over.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Better? Yes. Would the US efforts have succeeded? No idea.
No, the lesson is that the world does not necessarily cooperate with your intentions, and other factions and people have agency and plans of their own.The US certainly fucked up its nation building mission, but that doesnt actually change the fact that other people were going to move in anyway and attempt to grow their power and ideology regardless of what the US did.
People will always take an opportunity.
We canonically have seen the results of a major power vacuum in the Dresden Files with the extermination of the Red Court.
This isn't theory, we know what will happen.
And that was in the vanilla setting where the Yama Kings did not exist.
We dont have the capacity to step into the shoes of the White Court, even if we wanted to.
We certainly dont have the capacity to prevent elder vampires making deals with worse things for power to fight a war; the Reds are already in bed with Outsiders and necromancers, we dont want to push the Whites that way as well.
Can we take them if they do? Yes. Can we handle the collateral? No.
Odin is very much not Fae, and that applies for him with the Mantles he wears.
Even back in the day, a King could hold multiple titles as the Duke of so-and-so and the Knight of so-and-so.
The Duke could make agreements for his office and realm that the King was not bound by IIRC.
And those legal distinctions mattered; look at the life of Gustavus Adolphus, and the difference between his legal authority as the king of Sweden, and when he was Captain Gars.
Even when we get a Hell, how we choose to organize it is our concern.
We may very well choose not be absolute ruler, intentionally to avoid situations like this where the Hell as a corporate body is bound by our word.
So like I said, it depends.
Finish discussion.
Jump off chair, punch him/it in the face, bind him, call Harry.
Interrogate.
- Location
- Earth
Which gets him executed all the same.
Claiming this is not killing him is false.
One more point:
Its worth remembering that there is a small possibility that this is the US natsec apparatus in play.
We know the Library has magic users on staff, and Daedalus have backers somewhere.
He's a victim of the magic user, not the user itself.
Said magics have been used to modify him in apparent contravention of Laws 2, 3 and 4.
Whoever made him would get the chop. Not him.
EDIT
Whether they'd be able to fix the damage is a different matter.
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[X] Lara... may I make you a counteroffer. How would you like to take over the white court so they do not come into conflict with me? I am willing to agree to a truce... but I would like to keep an oar in. You know exactly what the baseline perks of the job are, and that's just the baseline. I am not without powers beyond that, and I am willing to help those aligned with me in their interests. So... how about it. I am not so stubborn or prideful to not be willing to bend. How about it? Are you willing to serve my interests by acting as if I am your pawn, all the while working to create a world where we exist together... after all, service to you would be service to me under the right circumstances. I would like a world where all of the white court is free from the beast riding behind their brain. I am willing to work through you to make that happen.
-[x] drive off, capture, or kill spy first.
-[x] drive off, capture, or kill spy first.
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It seems likely that whoever did this isn't a mortal. Also worth noting that there's good odds the mortal stooge is using dark magic if their master is.
The laws are about consequence rather than fairness, so he could still end up on the chopping block.
It's probably the best option available in terms of stopping this guy without killing him or leaving him to a grizzly fate with the white court, but it's not foolproof.
How? The only thing we have that can affect immaterial beings is our nuclear flamesword.
The update speaks of human sorcery, so Im assuming the bioengineer here is human.
The mortal stooge has only used veils so far.
No other magic. No evidence its breaking any of the Laws.
Probably a thrall to be honest; I cant see a black mage putting this much effort into modding a minion without installing controls of some sort to keep them loyal.
Might still end up on the chopping block, but if that things as unstable as we think, still its best chance at survival.
Its not immaterial.
Its a mortal enhancile under a veil that makes it invisible. You can touch and hit it just fine.
Invisibility veils are a capability common to wizards, Fae and some other magic users. The svaralfar can do
Vampires dont have them unless they can use magic and learn the spells. Most other spirits dont use them, although the naagloshi canonically does.
It was the first magic that Molly ever did in canon, to make herself invisible from her mother.
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The update speaks of mortal sorcery only as an element of the stooge, not in terms of how they were modified. The immediate comparison made is with spiritual possession, followed by commentary on how dark powers would see a lot of utility in this sort of thing.
It's not definitive proof it was done by nonhumans, but it's a reasonably strong indicator of it.
There isn't any evidence of darker magic, but I'd be surprised if someone made a suicide minion out of barbed wire and hand grenades but kept their actual abilities scrupulously clean from the perspective of the laws.
The designer is on the block either way.
COMMENTARY
-The spy is, as expected, not an Outsider. Perception + Alertness dice pool of 6.
So almost certainly mortal in origin.
Just a mortal with enough black magic in them to count as a Creature of Darkness.
And the mentions of human sorcery and another hand means that he/she/it was made this way by someone else.
Someone human.
The steel gray discipline part of that aura puts me in mind of the military, for some reason. Or someone with similar discipline.
Could also be a Fomor turtleneck, I suppose.
Or some other thrall.
===
-We've seen two examples of magic cyborgs/enhanciles in this quest so far: Gorfels' berserkers and the Pathfinder cult's members, which is descended from the Fomor.
The largest purveyor of modified humans in the Dresdenverse are the Fomor, and the Pathfinder enhanciles we met could use magic/magic abilities like walking on walls, while Gorfels berserkers couldn't. But Molly is deliberately making comparisons to Gorfels work instead, suggesting that we are looking at a more advanced example from the same magical tradition.
And there doesnt appear to be any equipment on the subject that we can see which would put up a veil, so said veil has to come from the subject. Which means that it was engineered into him/her/it.
If I absolutely had to make a guess and go with my gut, Id say this was from the Gorfels tradition.
Which means we're looking at a subject who is a human with a history, possibly a school or criminal record.
And a data trail before they fell into the hands of whoever turned them into a magical ninja.
Might be worth running the face through missing persons records.
===
I wonder how Thomas is reacting.
Im guessing he's never actually seen his sister's diplomancy run into quite this sort of brick wall before.
Dude is a little conflicted I guess. He does love his sister, but he does have complicated feelings there
Poor Lara getting a firsthand showing for why the Winter Queen wants to meet Molly herself instead of sending a lackey.
Confirming that Lara apparently feels comfortable using Disciplines for self-enhancement during diplomatic negotiations.
It certainly appears to be allowed if she is doing it in front of her brother and Dresden's brother Thomas.
And also noting that here:
She gives up the fiction of not being in command of the White Court.
Which is a fiction maintained to almost everyone who doesnt have very high intelligence access inside or outside the White Court. Which is an intentional, or unintentional sign of where she thinks Molly rates.
Also noting the exact framing here.
She's asking that we not specifically attack the interests of the White King. Elders or younger vampires who step out of line are fair game. Blundering over the White King's shit unintentionally, or as collateral, isn't encouraged but isn't a violation.
Hmm.
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I don't see where you're getting that from. It talks about the elements relevant to human sorcery being manipulated in the target and then immediately jumps to the comparison of infesting people with rage spirits.
It's possible a human did this, but I'm pretty sure this turn of phrase isn't meant to imply the hand and candle are made of the same things.
@DragonParadox
QUESTION
1)Molly Int + Occult/ Per + Occult check.
Does she think that the magic work what she is seeing in the Watcher was done by a human or not?
2)What is Molly's understanding of how our knowledge of the White Court blackmail/influence network would be affected by any non-aggression pact?
QUESTION
1)Molly Int + Occult/ Per + Occult check.
Does she think that the magic work what she is seeing in the Watcher was done by a human or not?
2)What is Molly's understanding of how our knowledge of the White Court blackmail/influence network would be affected by any non-aggression pact?
- If it was done by a human then it was done by a very skilled one
- Molly does not have the politics skill, but at a rough guess given what she knows, it would make her seem less like a threat to the court and more like someone who is... tolerated by the White King for some reason. Not many vampire elders would even consider a more equal relationship unless Molly rubbed their nose in how powerful she is
[X] Refuse, you are not going to let her leverage your presence for more influence, unlike Thomas his sister is definitely not one of the good guys
-[X] I look forward to meeting those Elders who haven't used their centuries to learn their limits
-[X] I look forward to meeting those Elders who haven't used their centuries to learn their limits
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Thought in the implications of a nonaggression pact. Any white court vampires affiliated with the White King who move against us would either need to be imprisoned by us or a third party, dumped on the courts doorstep, or killed. We don't get to give the join or die offer to any court assets moving against us. If we make this pact we should start prepping measures for such things.
1)So probably not human work.
And if its not human work, the fact that they count as a Creature of Darkness would suggest that whoever crafted them is one.
Likeliest to come to mind being the Fomor.
2)Yeah, we can live with that.
@DragonParadox
Two more questions:
QUESTIONS
1)Do we know, IC or OOC, if human black magic users ever count as Creatures of Darkness?
2) I just remembered the Greene/Raith affair.
Would breaking up the sex influence network we discovered count as a non-aggression pact breach?
Or would it just depend on how we did it?
We weren't giving the join or die offer anyway.
Isabella was a special case because what was causing her death wasn't of our making.
- Location
- Germany
Right now and in one step we can't take the White Court over.
After we kill a few older vampires and have their followers flock to the winning side?
Propably.
Combine with some diplomacy to draw the more reasonable Elders like Lara in our Shadow and we should be able to do it.
Not quickly, not easily, but we can.
That's definitly something any Exalted is good at and our build does support it in particular.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
No because Dresden doesn't and he broke the law as a kid. However many black magic users like corpse taker will.
- They can in extremis yes. Corpsetaker when she started skipping bodies remained a human wizard, but was a creature of darkness
- If it was the doing on the White King yes, but in that case it was a member of his family.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
@DragonParadox, does Molly believe the modifications made to the spy render it volatile? I mean literally volatile, not merely unstable. As in, it could explode if handled roughly, or even at will?
Rereading the chapter, Molly continually refers to it with words like explosive, thunderstorm, grenade, etc. It makes me worry she might be unconsciously picking up on something here, that this thing can also pull double duty as a suicide bomber.
Rereading the chapter, Molly continually refers to it with words like explosive, thunderstorm, grenade, etc. It makes me worry she might be unconsciously picking up on something here, that this thing can also pull double duty as a suicide bomber.
Nothing obliges any of those people to accept us as overlord, instead of signing up with other factions and boosting them instead. You could kill the entire nobility of the White Court and the rest go over en masse to the Fomor or Winter. Or start Outsider summoning or cutting a deal with the Yama Kings or a Dragon. Or collateral human society as a Fuck You.
This is not an either or question, its multiple choice. The Dresdenverse is littered with options for the knowledgeable.
And killing the family of people seldom endears you to the survivors.
Killing people is easy.
Getting their acquiescence, let alone their willing cooperation is Hard.
And this isn't vanilla Ex2 with shit like Husband Seducing Demon Dance and Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe.
We could probably destroy the White Court. If not now, in the next year or two.
We cant handle the collateral or the aftermath.
===
1)The implication is that it takes a bit of focused doing, and not just breaking the Laws deliberately.
Victor Sells would have been a black magician but not a CoD. Cowl is probably not a CoD, judging from his encounter with Dresden and how his magic felt, despite his planning a major piece of black magic; he'd probably have been a CoD if he'd pulled off the Darkhallow. Corpsetaker became one after she started jumping bodies.
2)Excellent.
Thank you for the answers.
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- Location
- Germany
I'm pretty confident that with the promise of helping them master the Hunger, of a world where neither they, nor their children will ever have to kill humans again, we could get quite a few.
To be clear, most older Vampires are propably either numb to human deaths or well enough in control of their Hunger that it doesn't matter, but they too have children.
And every time a Whampire has a kid, they know that this kid will intentionally or unintentionally kill people somewhere in the late puperty and then propably continue doing so for several years until they fully master their hunger, if they ever get there.
That hurts, since those kids are not born as callous monsters or distant from humanity, but instead have to blend right in.
And with us as the Liege of the White Court, that would be gone.
That is the primary point of course, but I again, I hope to also convince some of the more reasonable among the powerful vamps to back us. Just Lara herself would be immensly valuable of course and there must be more.
- Location
- Canada
I don't see any reason not to have a non-aggression pact ATM. If the "White King" (Lara's the hidden leader right now, she can't openly proclaim it but we know she's fought her way to the top of the crab bucket) starts openly murdering and raping or whatever, we can break the pact and declare war. Until then, it'll be nice to limit the number of enemies looking to dogpile us at the earliest opportunity.
[X] Agree, you are going to have to make some kind of formal deals with the local supernatural scene eventually and this one would not ask anything of you that your morals do not forbid anyway
[X] Agree, you are going to have to make some kind of formal deals with the local supernatural scene eventually and this one would not ask anything of you that your morals do not forbid anyway
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Pretty much, to count as a creature of darkness you have to start on a path of deliberate trans-humanism often though not always with black magic, not just use black magic. You do not just stunble into the category from throwing one too many fireballs at orphanages.