Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
 
-Mab was never going to kill us for knowing secrets.
I dont know where you got that idea from. We are hardly the only person around with enhanced intelligence gathering; the Archive has been around for five thousand years, and her intelligence-gathering is godlike.
We are the only person around with what's essentially an unrestricted Intellectus who is not bound by magic / law / major R rules in how they can act. Bob absolutely warned us that Mab will kill us if she learns of the crown and, for one, I kinda understand why.
We have spent 3 Essence in the bathroom.

1m= Tool Constructs to destroy the note
1m= Hellscry Chakra
1m= Crown question

If we use 2x Excellencies, we will have spent 5 Essence.
At that point, we will be glowing, and will presumably automatically fail the Watcher's Perception + Alertness.
You know, because aura of green glowing eyes.
Fair enough, thanks.

[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency

Because it's an opposed roll, and we are rolling at -3 difficulty for Perception + Occult. We can afford one excellency, right?
 
Perception 3 + Occult 5 + Stunt 2 is 10 dice with a buff of -4 DC (ATB 3 + BSM 1) to identify the intruder.
Standard DC6 roll with a buff of -4DC translates to auto successes, basically.
Unless we botch every roll.
It's an Occult roll, so we ignore 1s. Our odds of not getting at least 1 net success is 1 in 10^10, or 1 in 10 billion. We're on average going to get 9 successes on a 10 dice difficulty 2 favored roll. Yeah, we don't need the Excellency.

[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
 
Sorry this is late.
This is really reaching. We come to that conclusion immediately because we know the answer. For all Molly knows manipulate means bribery, disinformation campaigns, and blackmail. None of which qualify as possession. You might as well just directly ask about Meave if you're going to inject that much OOC knowledge into our question formulation.
I politely disagree.

This is not a human nationstate in question, it is the Winter Court, made up of Fae who while scheming and fractious, are bound to a purpose as a Court, and cannot lie. The Enemy is not another nationstate jostling for geopolitical advantage, its an existential threat with which no communication or diplomacy exists.

The usual means of exerting influence do not apply.
No Winter Fae has a paramour outside the Outer Gates, or has a bank account in the notCaymans taking Outsider bucks.
The Outsiders dont have an OutsiderKGB running an Outsider agitprop campaign in Winter.

The policy-setting elements of the Winter Court are under no illusions about what their enemy wants
In this AU, Mab literally came to power due to Outsider attempts to destroy the Courts and the world via some dude.
Its within living memory for many members of the Courts.

And Molly has spent months in discussion with Bob updating some of her knowledge on the modern Winter Court.
She knows this.

If Winter is making moves that advantage the Enemy or advance its goals, the likeliest option is infiltration forcing/influencing people in positions of power to make decisions against their own interests and those of their Court.
Only after you rule that out do you look for non-Court elements who have influence on Court policy.

This.
As you yourself pointed out, one vamp knowing something doesn't mean all of them do. Even then the more overt we are the more this sort of thing moves from inferred secret to common knowledge.

A huge number of DF supernaturals are gimmick bosses, this is the sort of detail they're basically trained from birth to pick up on.Right now most data points are ambiguous, showing we can use tap water is a significant slip.
While there's always room for caution, a situation where we literally are too afraid to use an ability at need for fear of its discovery is frankly counterproductive.
And we have multiple ways of mitigating this going forward anyway, from equipment to Sorcery to Charms

Unless they're clearly powerful supernaturals in an important meeting. Lara isn't going to think like a high schooler seeing someone sneak back into class. She's also clearly digging into us and is capable of examining old data in new contexts.

Even if she did is that really the impression we want to give? That we screwed up using a toilet so hard we came back out looking like we had a bath?
-Powerful supernatural humans.
Like Dresden or any one of the more powerful members of the Senior Council, who may be strategic threats but still are human with human foibles. Or even members of her own White Court, like her father, or brother, or herself.

-Even if she thought that said water was linked to magic?
It is quite a jump to assume that her conclusion is likely to be that this person is using water to buff herself instead of half a dozen other magical uses.

You know, like Scrying and Divination and Sending Messages, which is often done in classically done in pools of water.
Summoning, even, if dealing with water elementals.


-Yes, actually. Mortal. Human. Fallible.

There are advantages to being viewed as approachable, capable of mistakes; other people who you might have to work with dont automatically assume that offense given might be deliberate, and will crosscheck instead of making assumptions.
In my opinion.

Remember that we dont actually want to be a cipher.
We want to clearly communicate our intentions, redlines, and some of our capabilities.
While its tempting to want to know everything and everyone else to know nothing, its neither desirable nor practical.

That was very much intentional. Not that Molly thinks of herself as a god, even in the little g sense, but there is no reason not to keep your adversary guessing in social combat and say what you will about the Whites they are good at this, as seen by the fact that they managed to turn this around on Molly by making her doubt her own position vis a vis Thomas, enough so for Lara to also draw her own conclusions. Molly was going for 'implacable juggernaut' with that image and it cracked a little when Lara made her metaphorically blink.
Huh.
Fair enough.

We are the only person around with what's essentially an unrestricted Intellectus who is not bound by magic / law / major R rules in how they can act. Bob absolutely warned us that Mab will kill us if she learns of the crown and, for one, I kinda understand why.
-We dont actually know that IC. Its not an unrestricted Intellectus; the Crown has its own limits.

-Furthermore, we know OOC thats not actually true.

At the very least, we know about Anduriel, Master of Shadows and his partner Nicodemus Archleone, Kris Kringle's intelligence network, the Archive's Intellectus, and the Gatekeeper's apparent ability to see potential futures. And that's in addition to the oracular spirits we see Dresden call up in the books like Ulsharavas, or how older wizards apparently have precognition.

Molly's in a very select group. She's not entirely unprecedented.


-I am pretty sure that Bob did not say that.
He told us some powerful people will make us targets if it becomes known, he didn't call Mab by name.
Furthermore, there's no way for him to know Mab's mind. He cant generalize from his own experience to ours.

Suggestions that Mab is going to jump to homicide have no supporting evidence for them.
 
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It's an Occult roll, so we ignore 1s. Our odds of not getting at least 1 net success is 1 in 10^10, or 1 in 10 billion. We're on average going to get 9 successes on a 10 dice difficulty 2 favored roll. Yeah, we don't need the Excellency.

[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
We don't need one for perception. We need it to avoid detection. That's an opposed roll, with only -1 DC adjustment, with 6 base dice. Against a clearly supernatural agent.
At the very least, we know about Anduriel, Master of Shadows and his partner Nicodemus Archleone, Kris Kringle's intelligence network, the Archive's Intellectus, and the Gatekeeper's apparent ability to see potential futures. And that's in addition to the oracular spirits we see Dresden call up in the books like Ulsharavas, or how older wizards apparently have precognition.
All those pale in comparison to the crown, really.
Suggestions that Mab is going to jump to homicide have no supporting evidence for them.
They have tons of supporting evidence in Winter Court characterization.
 
[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency
 
[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
 
All those pale in comparison to the crown, really.
Not really.
They are optimized differently, but they do have the same tier of setting impact.
If the Archive wasn't programmed to repeatedly delete certain types of information, it would be even scarier.

They have tons of supporting evidence in Winter Court characterization.
Respectfully? No, this is not true.
The Winter Court has never in the Dresden Files record gone to war with someone, or tried to kill them, for what they might know.

And dont fool yourself, Winter knows damn well where Bob is. He's been running around town doing Dresden's errands for him for the last decade. Canonically, Dresden even left Bob's skull in the Leanansidhe's garden in the NeverNever during Changes when the FBI raided his apartment, and Lea returned it to him.

Even though according to Bob Mab has a price on his head.
 
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Respectfully? No, this is not true.
The Winter Court has never in the Dresden Files record gone to war with someone, or tried to kill them, for what they might know.
Suffice to say, as always, we have very different opinion about Winter Court. Mab is one of the last beings I would want to disclose the Crown to. Not without extracting some exacting safety and non-interference promises beforehand.

No, the best solution would be to ambush Maeve, knock her out, and exorcise her before she realizes what's going on.
 
Suffice to say, as always, we have very different opinion about Winter Court. Mab is one of the last beings I would want to disclose the Crown to. Not without extracting some exacting safety and non-interference promises beforehand.

No, the best solution would be to ambush Maeve, knock her out, and exorcise her before she realizes what's going on.
Dude, Mab has known that Dresden was Starborn a long time before he ever did.
She knows archangels on a first name basis.
The woman literally trades in world-shaking secrets.

Mab keeps a lot more secrets than you would imagine.
And she certainly knows better than to poke someone who Uriel et al have explicitly let be.
There's a reason we bought Mentor 5(Michael Carpenter), and a lot of its effects are non obvious.

===
Maeve is a different matter.
I dont trust Maeve, and wouldn't even if she was healthy. Girl has issues that extend beyond being Winter Lady, though her being Winter Lady doesnt help. But thats OOC knowledge.

Dealing with her situation requires liaising with Mab. So not our immediate problem.
Let her confirm the issue, and figure out how to confine the people.
 
Dude, Mab has known that Dresden was Starborn a long time before he ever did.
She knows archangels on a first name basis.
The woman literally trades in world-shaking secrets.

Mab keeps a lot more secrets than you would imagine.
And she certainly knows better than to poke someone who Uriel et al have explicitly let be.
There's a reason we bought Mentor 5(Michael Carpenter), and a lot of its effects are non obvious.
Mab has spent not inconsiderable resources in order to enslave Dresden to her will. And yes, she fully intended to mold him into her obedient servant, and it took Uriel's direct intervention to prevent that fate.

And it is because she trades in world-shaking secrets that she'll absolutely murder us if she learns about our Crown.
 
[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
 
Fair enough, thanks.

[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency

Because it's an opposed roll, and we are rolling at -3 difficulty for Perception + Occult. We can afford one excellency, right?
We can afford an Excellency.
I dont think its necessary to use a Subterfuge Excellency, and I'd rather keep it in reserve for the event that its not a hostile we need to attack and we can spend it on Empathy or Etiquette instead.

Mab has spent not inconsiderable resources in order to enslave Dresden to her will. And yes, she fully intended to mold him into her obedient servant, and it took Uriel's direct intervention to prevent that fate.

And it is because she trades in world-shaking secrets that she'll absolutely murder us if she learns about our Crown.
This is not true.
Mab in canon invested considerable resources to recruit Dresden and keep him alive.
Here she's just been patient.

Mab wants a self-directing weapon she can wield against her enemies and the enemies of Creation.
A Knight of strong will.
An obedient servant is useless to her. Even in the Winter Court, she has lots of those, and can buy more.

See the events of Cold Days for why she doesnt want or need an obedient servant.
Or Peace Talks/Battle Grounds for that matter.



I literally listed a procession of people with information access who remain un-murdered by Mab or her servants despite their capabilities being known. There is literally no evidence for your claims, and its actively contradicts what we've seen her and Winter's minions do on screen in the series.

EDIT
Seriously, nobody in the supernatural community would willingly talk to Winter and trade information if they thought there was a risk of Winter murdering them for having too much access to information.
It would be an asinine policy for a nationstate or a monarch.
 
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I'm fairly tempted to try to use this information as a bargaining chip alongside a deal along the lines of: "in exchange for all of the information that you have on my power, and an agreement to not pry into how I got this information, I will give you the names of the three members of your court that I know of that have been infected by Nemesis." Alongside an assurance that we are very sure about our source of information, even if we don't reveal it.

If not prying about our source is part of the deal, Mab will honor it, and the information is important enough that she will be willing to pay metaphorical top-dollar for it as soon as she knows there are three of her own that are infected. And adding a "that we know of" qualifier makes our information seem less absolute than it is, and therefore less of a threat. And is technically true, since it's always possible for Nemesis to infect someone else between now and the meeting.
 
I'm fairly tempted to try to use this information as a bargaining chip alongside a deal along the lines of: "in exchange for all of the information that you have on my power, and an agreement to not pry into how I got this information, I will give you the names of the three members of your court that I know of that have been infected by Nemesis." Alongside an assurance that we are very sure about our source of information, even if we don't reveal it.

If not prying about our source is part of the deal, Mab will honor it, and the information is important enough that she will be willing to pay metaphorical top-dollar for it as soon as she knows there are three of her own that are infected. And adding a "that we know of" qualifier makes our information seem less absolute than it is, and therefore less of a threat. And is technically true, since it's always possible for Nemesis to infect someone else between now and the meeting.
I don't think we could do this without also telling Mab that we have the ability to remove the infection as well.

She would not only need to confirm our information, but need before and after examples, pre- and post-exorcism, before she would ever consider letting us try to fix Maeve.
 
I'm fairly tempted to try to use this information as a bargaining chip alongside a deal along the lines of: "in exchange for all of the information that you have on my power, and an agreement to not pry into how I got this information, I will give you the names of the three members of your court that I know of that have been infected by Nemesis." Alongside an assurance that we are very sure about our source of information, even if we don't reveal it.

If not prying about our source is part of the deal, Mab will honor it, and the information is important enough that she will be willing to pay metaphorical top-dollar for it as soon as she knows there are three of her own that are infected. And adding a "that we know of" qualifier makes our information seem less absolute than it is, and therefore less of a threat. And is technically true, since it's always possible for Nemesis to infect someone else between now and the meeting.
I'd probably give that to her for free, actually. No strings. And offer exorcism as a service.
Just the exorcism is probably worth major favors.
And I doubt that this will be the only time that Nemesis wears someone like a skin suit.

Im half-tempted to see what the price for Lloyd Slate's life is.
Not his services.
Just his life.
 
I'd probably give that to her for free, actually. No strings. And offer exorcism as a service.
Just the exorcism is probably worth major favors.
And I doubt that this will be the only time that Nemesis wears someone like a skin suit.

Im half-tempted to see what the price for Lloyd Slate's life is.
Not his services.
Just his life.
I was thinking of setting it up as a "information for information" trade. Remember that Winter's knowledge of our Exaltation is a big part of what we want from them, and their biggest source of leverage on us. We want to get that out for as low of a cost as we can manage. The Exorcisms can be done for favors after.
 
I was thinking of setting it up as a "information for information" trade. Remember that Winter's knowledge of our Exaltation is a big part of what we want from them, and their biggest source of leverage on us. We want to get that out for as low of a cost as we can manage. The Exorcisms can be done for favors after.
I suspect that knowledge of and exorcism of infiltrators is worth a lot more to Winter than their knowledge of our Exaltation is worth to us.We can potentially get the information by other means; purging Outsider infiltration is more of a seller's market.

I dont know if we can in good faith charge for it; as in, Molly has a moral outlook we have to remember.

That said, the very nature of the Fae ensures that they would be compelled to try to compensate us for it even if we didn't charge for it. And not just Mab herself or Winter as a corporate body, but the victims as well; see Lea going above and beyond for Dresden because he killed the Red Court vampire who Nfected her.

So...*shrug*
It'll work out one way or the other.
 
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This is not true.
Mab in canon invested considerable resources to recruit Dresden and keep him alive.
Here she's just been patient.

Mab wants a self-directing weapon she can wield against her enemies and the enemies of Creation.
A Knight of strong will.
An obedient servant is useless to her. Even in the Winter Court, she has lots of those, and can buy more.

See the events of Cold Days for why she doesnt want or need an obedient servant.
Or Peace Talks/Battle Grounds for that matter.
She wanted him defiant at first. She fully expected to be able to shape him to her will afterwards. Here, a direct quote:
I licked at my lips again. "Guess . . . you're kind of upset with me. . . ."

"You attempted to cheat the Queen of Air and Darkness," Mab hissed. "You practiced a vile, wicked deception upon me, my knight." Her inhuman eyes glittered. "I expected no less of you. Were you not strong enough to cast such defiance into my teeth, you would be useless to my purposes." Her smile widened. "To our purposes now."

The very ground seemed to quiver, to let out an unthinkably low, deep, angry growl.

Mab's eyes snapped to Demonreach. "I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."

"Dammit," I said tiredly. "Dammit."
This is the culmination of Mab's manipulations. Having Harry be hers "to shape as I please." She fully believes that. Fully intends to do that. It takes Uriel interfering to derail her plans:
And a voice—a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."

I struggled and twitched my fingers. "Five," I muttered, "Six. Seven. Heh." I couldn't help it. I laughed again. It hurt like hell and it felt wonderful. "Heh. Heh."

Mab had gone very still. She stared at me with wide eyes, her alien face void of expression.

"No," I said then, weakly. "No. Maybe I'm your knight. But I'm not yours."

Emerald fire flickered in her eyes, cold and angry. "What?"
Note her reaction - she is angry. Not triumphant that "finally, there's someone who gets it". She is angry that her plans were ruined.
I literally listed a procession of people with information access who remain un-murdered by Mab or her servants despite their capabilities being known. There is literally no evidence for your claims, and its actively contradicts what we've seen her and Winter's minions do on screen in the series.

EDIT
Seriously, nobody in the supernatural community would willingly talk to Winter and trade information if they thought there was a risk of Winter murdering them for having too much access to information.
It would be an asinine policy for a nationstate or a monarch.
... I am honestly at a loss for words. Am I seriously having to explain the concepts of classified information, national security and unauthorized access to said information to you? Mab would absolutely be in her rights to imprison or murder Molly immediately as she learned about Molly's Crown ability. No one would even blink or think twice about it. Doing so would be the only rational choice on Mab's part if absolute unquestionable and inviolate loyalty to Winter Court couldn't be established immediately.

Let me give you a real world analogy. If, on September 12th, 2001 you visited a USA embassy in Switzerland, and gave the ambassador the coordinates of Osama Bin Laden, you would have been rewarded. If, at the same time, you demonstrated an ability to read Vladimir Putin's mail and listen in on White House situation room more or less at will from anywhere in the world? No one would ever hear from you ever again.

National security trumps other interests. It's better to prevent a rogue agent who can do untold damages from operating freely than to get some more information. Because they can always fail into enemy hands, if nothing else.

Here, have USA legal code on espionage:
...
(e)
Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
...
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
That's a close equivalent.

We either give the information to Mab after extracting some very binding oaths, or we deliver the information unanimously, or we don't deliver it at all.
 
She wanted him defiant at first. She fully expected to be able to shape him to her will afterwards. Here, a direct quote:

This is the culmination of Mab's manipulations. Having Harry be hers "to shape as I please." She fully believes that. Fully intends to do that. It takes Uriel interfering to derail her plans:

Note her reaction - she is angry. Not triumphant that "finally, there's someone who gets it". She is angry that her plans were ruined.

... I am honestly at a loss for words. Am I seriously having to explain the concepts of classified information, national security and unauthorized access to said information to you? Mab would absolutely be in her rights to imprison or murder Molly immediately as she learned about Molly's Crown ability. No one would even blink or think twice about it. Doing so would be the only rational choice on Mab's part if absolute unquestionable and inviolate loyalty to Winter Court couldn't be established immediately.

Let me give you a real world analogy. If, on September 12th, 2001 you visited a USA embassy in Switzerland, and gave the ambassador the coordinates of Osama Bin Laden, you would have been rewarded. If, at the same time, you demonstrated an ability to read Vladimir Putin's mail and listen in on White House situation room more or less at will from anywhere in the world? No one would ever hear from you ever again.

National security trumps other interests. It's better to prevent a rogue agent who can do untold damages from operating freely than to get some more information. Because they can always fail into enemy hands, if nothing else.

Here, have USA legal code on espionage:

That's a close equivalent.

We either give the information to Mab after extracting some very binding oaths, or we deliver the information unanimously, or we don't deliver it at all.

Also note the United States might be at least somewhat limited by its public percection. Mab is a feudal despot of the 'I would rather be feared than loved' variety
 
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Also note the United States might be at least somewhat limited by its public perfection. Mab is a feudal despot of the 'I would rather be feared than loved' variety
Indeed. And even in real life there are governments with far more strict legal codes. I can provide Russian one, for example, and I am fairly sure that other countries like North Korea are far harsher.
 
[X] Fix your gaze on it to try to figure out what it is (In addition to the Perception+Occult roll of the Charm Molly will roll Manipulation+Subterfuge opposing the Watcher's Perception+Alertness in order not to be caught looking)
 
No, the best solution would be to ambush Maeve, knock her out, and exorcise her before she realizes what's going on.
Well, that's something I'm absolutely not going to vote for, the unimaginable number of ways this could go wrong astounds me.

Firstly? we could loose the fight, or Maeve could escape, or one of her retainers could pull a runner, or she could have a contingency, either fey, or outsider based, in place before meeting with the scary new Mantel in play, or one of a dozen other things, and then we've attacked the Winter Lady apparently unprovoked and we are #$%&@!, given the number of ways that could be spun by Maeve/Nemesis.

We can pass the information to Mab without a full reveal of the crown, could we lie successfully about it to Mab? Probably not, but if we just refuse to explain, Mab has to take what she can get, for now. We can even say truthfully that we've spent a preponderance of the time since she requested a meeting preparing for such, that investigating both her, and her court were a part of that, and that this information came to light during that process.

Another element that will blunt the fallout from this is the sheer quality/quantity of the Debt Mab/Winter is about to owe Molly, which has it's own problems, but should keep the knives pointed out, rather then in for a good long while, and time is what we need most.
 
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Remember that Winter's knowledge of our Exaltation is a big part of what we want from them, and their biggest source of leverage on us. We want to get that out for as low of a cost as we can
Oh right, forgot about that. Wasn't there a plan to remove that leverage before the meeting? What ever happened to that??
 
Doesn't Mab know about Maeve being infected by Nemesis? I'm a little hazy on the details of the timeline, but isn't Cold Days all about her trying to get Dresden to kill Maeve so that Sarissa can be the Winter Lady because Maeve is infected?

I'm sorry, I don't quite know where on the timeline we're at currently
 
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