Mac could also just be doing this on his own, not a formal assignment.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Marcone doesnt become a signatory in canon until next year.
After the events of White Night, when Einherjar he paid for formed the relief force that pulled out the Raiths and Dresden when they were attacked by superghouls.
He was sponsored by the White Court, Dresden and Odin.
There is an element of that with the Fallen.
Their hosts can learn to wield more power when treated more as junior partners than when Fallen like Ursiel essentially just drive them as cars. Or so I recall; dont quote me.
Fair enough.
Angels dont lie. Not and remain angels instead of being Fallen.
Besides, we see Maeve recognize him, and shoot him with a mundane pistol in Cold Days.
And Mab very clearly recognizes him, and he her; they greet each other as friends.
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On the matter of legality... I actually think that yes, it can be argued that Mab has legal ownership of the exaltation under modern law. When Emma-O unearthed it, it was clearly salvage (buried treasure). When Mab took it, it was battlefield salvage. That, I am fairly sure, is legal. Previous owners of the exaltation are either dead or are Mab's area of responsibility (i.e. Outer gods locked outside the Outer Gates). In fact, as a weapon meant to fight beings like Primordials and Neverborn, it can be argued that exaltations are part of Mab's (Winter's) universal jurisdiction.
Of course the counter-argument is "We are exalted, the Princes of Earth, and it is to us the Mandate of Heaven is given", or "we are the heirs of the Primordials, the makers of Creation, and ours is rightful claim to the throne of Heavens". Ie assert the ultimate authority. Certain magic might even agree with us, but I'm not sure if Mab would.
In any case, the situation where Mab uses these points is plausible to me.
- Location
- Germany
Eh, why not?
If they are acting as Messengers of the Lord most High they obviously couldn't and wouldn't lie without Falling.
But in any other case they are here on inscrutable paths in service of one who can't be understood by mortals as a matter of definition.
Why should it be impossible for them to lie?
And I remember that Mab recognised him, you mentioned it before., which is why I said semi-undercover.
Did you forget the demon that has held the exaltation since before both the Yama kings, or the Fey courts had even been conceived of, let alone existed. If your going to argue about that stuff he has always owned the exaltation until he passed it to Molly, he just been a prisoner for a long time.
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Usum as an unwoven coadjutor has no legal claim to the exaltation. He is a part of it, a servitor that comes with it, not its owner.
A unwoven coadjutor hold within themselves the exaltation. It is placed inside them to control who get the exaltation.
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- Germany
[x] Yog
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
Even if he did, in a system that recognizes the existence of slaves that isn't exactly a problem. By staking claim to the person you stake a claim on what the person holds.
Hmm... second guessing myself. @DragonParadox does Molly think she'll be able to find at least one more focus before meeting Mab?
Because yes, I acknowledge that Accords would be incredibly useful as a focus in general. Just the question "who plots to have Accords destroyed?" would reveal a ton, including Nemesis.
Because yes, I acknowledge that Accords would be incredibly useful as a focus in general. Just the question "who plots to have Accords destroyed?" would reveal a ton, including Nemesis.
Indeed. Usum was Emma-O's slave. Then Mab's prisoner. Given that Usum is a demon of the Yozi and thus hails from outside Creation, he's an Outsider and thus falls under Mab's jurisdiction.
You guys could say walk into Winter's domain and ask about the Queen of that realm, but in terms of just finding foci laying around not that Molly can think about.
Romeo and Juliet doesn't count? Also I am guessing the vote on asking Lydia to check her library didn't go through. And Harry is unlikely to have books about her.
No unfortunately, it's connected to Mab too tenuously. As for Lydia's library that would have to be an academics roll for her to find the right book
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Let's hope Mab brings some entourage with her then.
We could ask a question per Winter Fey about their boss's knowledge and plans.
We could ask a question per Winter Fey about their boss's knowledge and plans.
Whenever we've asked these sorts of questions in the past the focus has effected the outcome. The crown isn't an evil genie but it doesn't really give us everything we want, just what we ask for.
Everything she knows about Molly's powers is the sort of thing I'd expect to give us a rundown of what Mab thinks we can do and become. I wouldn't expect it to tell us what she knows about what an exaltation is in a more general sense, any of their history, or the nature and identities of the beings who made them.
Thing is, she normally doesn't bring mortals there. Note that her prisoners included gods, powerful spirits, and upstart fey. Molly's situation was unusual.
Mab has one of the best possible positions to research this topic from, and she had it for a long time.
No one is perfect, but we shouldn't run around assuming that level of incompetence by default from people who otherwise aren't idiots even if they're assholes.
Having thought about it....
VOTE
[X] No, you have all you wanted out of this
RATIONALE
Its going to be a lot easier to find relevant foci for Mab and Winter, than for other Accord signatories.
The Dragons Ferrovax and Pyrovax, the shapeshifter in Ukraine, Drakul, the Order of the Blackened Denarius, even the Archive, are all subjects we may want to look into. Especially Drakul, given the relationship between the Black Court and the Neverborn.
I dont want to burn the Accords as a focus.
I dont think we can afford it.
VOTE
[X] No, you have all you wanted out of this
RATIONALE
Its going to be a lot easier to find relevant foci for Mab and Winter, than for other Accord signatories.
The Dragons Ferrovax and Pyrovax, the shapeshifter in Ukraine, Drakul, the Order of the Blackened Denarius, even the Archive, are all subjects we may want to look into. Especially Drakul, given the relationship between the Black Court and the Neverborn.
I dont want to burn the Accords as a focus.
I dont think we can afford it.
Exalted lore can be extracted afterwards, by using the chair Mab sat in and such. Unless Mac destroys it in order to preserves Mab's privacy. Relevant information (what Mab knows about Molly, what Mab wants from Molly, etc) is more important before the meeting.
But there will be a roll? Or did that not win? I am unsure, sorry.
Thinking more about it, this is one case where I'll say that it's better to preserve the resource than to use it. I hope Lydia's academics roll will be good enough to find the book. Or Harry will have something. Accords are too useful for different question.
[X] No, you have all you wanted out of this
[X] Make an appointment with detective Murphy to go over the Accords together. She's free and encouraged to invite a trustworthy jurist. As an officer of the law she should actually learn the laws that govern the world she's trying to operate in.
-[X] Make her a copy of the Accords to use.
That did not win the last vote no, it needed a majority of votes cast as it would spent resources.
Getting into a legal argument with Mab in the first place is a bad idea. Even setting aside the exaltation, it's possible that under faerie law the Fetches had every right to do what they did and were in the legal wrong for "resisting arrest" or something like that.
Accepting the premise gives Mab a lot of control of the conversation, and an easy way to push us around once we've gotten into it.
We didn't sign shit, they picked a fight, and the law wasn't involved until well after things settled.
There are issues with that line of reasoning, but if Mab was that interested in pressing us on this she'd have done it already. Having a consistent and coherent policy we're willing to back up under pressure is more important than it being perfectly logically sound from a political/diplomatic perspective.
Mab's pitch is going to be based on goals we aren't aware of and use a hook based on her knowledge of the exaltation if she's planning to pick up where she left off.
Knowledge of what she thinks Molly can do wasn't the focus of that conversation, and it wasn't what we had to roll to avoid making bad deals to get when she presented it.
The three most important things to know going in are the nature of Mab's goals, the nature of the hook she'll use to draw us in, and how she operates in general.
Questions that don't look at those things shouldn't be taking up time and foci prior to the meeting.
Accepting the premise gives Mab a lot of control of the conversation, and an easy way to push us around once we've gotten into it.
We didn't sign shit, they picked a fight, and the law wasn't involved until well after things settled.
There are issues with that line of reasoning, but if Mab was that interested in pressing us on this she'd have done it already. Having a consistent and coherent policy we're willing to back up under pressure is more important than it being perfectly logically sound from a political/diplomatic perspective.
Maybe, but you're sort of asking for something that isn't very useful for our immediate situation.
Mab's pitch is going to be based on goals we aren't aware of and use a hook based on her knowledge of the exaltation if she's planning to pick up where she left off.
Knowledge of what she thinks Molly can do wasn't the focus of that conversation, and it wasn't what we had to roll to avoid making bad deals to get when she presented it.
The three most important things to know going in are the nature of Mab's goals, the nature of the hook she'll use to draw us in, and how she operates in general.
Questions that don't look at those things shouldn't be taking up time and foci prior to the meeting.
Religious? All the Abrahamic faiths agree about lying being problematic.
The Ten Commandments literally has Do not bear false witness as a commandment.
Pragmatism?
Because a messenger who is known to lie has burned a good chunk of his credibility, and people will automatically suspect his messages, even when he's telling the truth. How is a mortal supposed to tell the difference between a genuine message and a lie?
Remember that the word angel came from the Late Greek angelos, which literally meant messenger.
Its a core part of who and what they are.
I dont really think they hold true under supernatural law.
In ExWoD canon, Infernal Exaltations were deliberately buried in that location, in which case Emma-O is engaged in theft, and Mab would be in possession of stolen goods. Might not be true here, but regardless, immortals know better than to assume that something is unclaimed because it hasnt budged for a couple thousand years.
Exaltations own themselves and choose their own wielder.
They've never been owned.
And something with its own decisionmaking capabiliyy cant be claimed without its consent under Winter Law as fr as I recall.
EDIT
It might be worthwhile to simply pay a settlement than to expose the knowledge and resources it might require to prove Mab wrong.
We'll see.
Thats essentially what we pencilled that looted gossamer for anyway.
International treaty, not city law.
There are presumably reasons why neither Kincaid the Hellhound and occasional boyfriend, MacAnally the ex-angel and Dresden the White Council wizard gave her a copy.
Until you figure out why, dont jump to assume that they were all stupid bigots.
Molly's drive is pretty opposed to making major decisions without knowledge.
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The reasons why someone might be hesitant to hand a mortal a copy of the accords might be that mortals have no real protection and no recourse against signatories. Knowing the rules would make a mortal visible especially if they used them, but as an independent mortal agent they would have no standing. Indeed the Accords were designed to keep mortal authorities from being clued in so a lot of beings might take an overly informed mortal police officer as something that needs fixing.
Oh, certainly. It's mostly the argument towards "no, we aren't signing the accords until and unless we are unassialable by Mab or got her to dismiss any prior claims to us and ours she thinks she might have".
You are probably right. In any case, I switched to not using the Accords for a question.
Theft against who? And slavery is accepted under Accords. Usum and the exaltation he is bound to were legal slaves of Emma-O, were captured by Mab and became legal slaves of Winter under Accords.
Also, not a couple thousand years, but likely since before this iteration of linear time was a thing.
The update directly stated that Murphy has been acting as Harry's and ours agent without knowing it. And likely without Harry realizing it. And Harry, as a Warden Commander, is a signatory of the Accords, or at least works for the signatory. And he likely has Law 0 too. Thus, Murphy needs to know what kind of protections, restrictions, dangers and responsibilities are afforded to her under the Accords as a mortal agent of the Warden Commander of the White Council. And possibly as an agent of the Library of Congress.
Ah.
One of those "Knowledge makes you vulnerable" type situations.
Theft against the people/gods who stored the shard in the Scar in the first place.
Theft from the heirs to the Exaltation; inheritances can be legally willed to people who werent even alive at the time.
Just like Harry is beneficiary to inheritances from his mother who he's never met.
Slavery/thralls are accepted as a fact of life under the Accords.But as far as Im aware? Slavery/slaving is not practiced by the Fae Courts. They can and do take prisoners who must be ransomed to be set free; you can also owe a debt large enough to give a Fae pretty broad control over your life.
But they dont practice chattel slavery afaik, and all debts can be paid off, at least in theory.
As a wizard of the White Council, Harry has a current copy of the Accords because he's their local representative.
He consulted it onscreen in Death Masks chapter 8, after he was challenged by Ortega to a duel, and that was around three years ago in 2003.
Twin points of orange and gold light kindled in the shadows of the skull's eye sockets, and grew brighter as I went about the room lighting half a dozen candles and a kerosene lamp. The skull rattled a little, and then said, "It's only a few hours from dawn, and you're just starting up? What gives?"
I started getting out beakers and vials and a small alcohol burner. "More trouble," I said. "It's been one hell of a day." I told Bob the Skull about the television studio, the vampire's challenge, the hit man, the missing Shroud, and the plague-filled corpse.
"Wow. You don't do things halfway, do you, Harry?"
"Advise now; critique later. I'm going to look into things and whip up a potion or two, and you're going to help."
"Right," Bob said. "Where do you want to start?"
"With Ortega. Where is my copy of the Accords?"
"Cardboard box." Bob said. "Third shelf, on the bottom row, behind the pickling jars."
I found the box and pawed through it until I had found a vellum scroll tied shut with a white ribbon. I opened it and peered down at the handwritten calligraphy. It started off with the word Insomuch, and the syntax got more opaque from there.
"I can't make heads or tails of this," I said. "Where's the section about duels?"
"Fifth paragraph from the end. You want the Cliff's Notes version?"
I rolled the scroll shut again. "Hit me."
"It's based on Code Duello," Bob said. "Well, technically it's based on much older rules that eventually inspired the Code Duello, but that's just chickens and eggs. Ortega is the challenger, and you're the challenged."
"I know that. I get to pick the weapons and the ground, right?"
"Wrong," Bob said. "You pick the weapons, but he gets to choose the time and location."
"Damn," I muttered. "I was going to take high noon out in a park somewhere. But I guess I can just say that we'll duel with magic."
"If it's one of the available choices. It almost always is."
"Who decides?"
"The vampires and the Council will pick from a list of neutral emissaries. The emissary decides."
I nodded. "So if I don't have it as an option I'm screwed, right? I mean, magic, wizard, kind of my bag."
Bob said. "Yeah, but be careful. It's got to be a weapon that he can use. If you pick one he can't, he can refuse it, and force you to take your second choice."
"Meaning what?"
I started getting out beakers and vials and a small alcohol burner. "More trouble," I said. "It's been one hell of a day." I told Bob the Skull about the television studio, the vampire's challenge, the hit man, the missing Shroud, and the plague-filled corpse.
"Wow. You don't do things halfway, do you, Harry?"
"Advise now; critique later. I'm going to look into things and whip up a potion or two, and you're going to help."
"Right," Bob said. "Where do you want to start?"
"With Ortega. Where is my copy of the Accords?"
"Cardboard box." Bob said. "Third shelf, on the bottom row, behind the pickling jars."
I found the box and pawed through it until I had found a vellum scroll tied shut with a white ribbon. I opened it and peered down at the handwritten calligraphy. It started off with the word Insomuch, and the syntax got more opaque from there.
"I can't make heads or tails of this," I said. "Where's the section about duels?"
"Fifth paragraph from the end. You want the Cliff's Notes version?"
I rolled the scroll shut again. "Hit me."
"It's based on Code Duello," Bob said. "Well, technically it's based on much older rules that eventually inspired the Code Duello, but that's just chickens and eggs. Ortega is the challenger, and you're the challenged."
"I know that. I get to pick the weapons and the ground, right?"
"Wrong," Bob said. "You pick the weapons, but he gets to choose the time and location."
"Damn," I muttered. "I was going to take high noon out in a park somewhere. But I guess I can just say that we'll duel with magic."
"If it's one of the available choices. It almost always is."
"Who decides?"
"The vampires and the Council will pick from a list of neutral emissaries. The emissary decides."
I nodded. "So if I don't have it as an option I'm screwed, right? I mean, magic, wizard, kind of my bag."
Bob said. "Yeah, but be careful. It's got to be a weapon that he can use. If you pick one he can't, he can refuse it, and force you to take your second choice."
"Meaning what?"
A Warden regional commander for half of the US, who acts as a cross between a cop, judge, soldier and diplomat cannot afford to be Law 0, let alone someone who was living under Warden probation between the ages of 16 and 25, and who owes Mab favors.
And he made his living as a PI and police consultant at the start of the series, to boot.
I guarantee Harry is at least Law 2 by now.
Possibly 3, with specialties in Faerie Law and Chicago/IL Criminal Code.
Thats just the basics to survive his situation.
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Agent is a periodic thing during a given episode. It isnt permanent, unless said agent is a permanent employee/underling.
Someone who was acting for one faction at one time could be acting for another at a different time.
See Kincaid, or Goodman Grey. Or even Dresden as Emissary for Mab.
When a mortal or lesser supernatural is used as an agent of an Accord signatory, the signatory is responsible for their actions.
Thats why the Za Guard killed the Summer Lady with iron but all responsibility was Dresden's. Also why the Alphas killed the assassin called the Tigress but the responsibility was also Dresden's.
Conversely, Maeve's handmaiden Jenny Greenteeth going after Billy and Georgia's wedding put Maeve in actual legal jeopardy with regard.
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