Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

I think Gan is handling the Luo, we introduced him to the old Luo dude from the tournament.
We were handling the Wang and Meng i think?

The Laurent said:

Like... what issues? Like, something specific. I can point to, "It turns out in negotiation that successful deals can tend to spawn future cooperation, and we don't have to settle everything now, getting anything worthwhile out of this will convince people it's worth trying further" when arguing for the potential future building of Astronomical Ties even if they aren't built right this moment.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, in terms of immediate gains the value of being able to use this as a negotiating chip to show that we can do cooperation and make deals that benefit both parties is probably the main value here.

At the same time it can fairly be pointed out that any research work is hardly urgent, and is hardly going to be something with immediate follow-up. These things take time. Indeed, if anything the findings here suggest that it's less urgent since any connection to the Star Spirits helping the nomads would seem to be contradicted by what we've learnt about the interaction of the demon lights and the heavens here.

Narratively, one challenge I think is that it feels awkward to not follow up on a story thread like this. It's also challenging because we're being asked to make this decision in isolation, rather than within a broader context of what cards we have on the table to play with. It can also be argued that this isn't actually a commitment to do it, just to have it on the table in negotiations.

Urgh, it's tricky.

Erebeal said:

Yeah, in terms of immediate gains the value of being able to use this as a negotiating chip to show that we can do cooperation and make deals that benefit both parties is probably the main value here.

At the same time it can fairly be pointed out that any research work is hardly urgent, and is hardly going to be something with immediate follow-up. These things take time. Indeed, if anything the findings here suggest that it's less urgent since any connection to the Star Spirits helping the nomads would seem to be contradicted by what we've learnt about the interaction of the demon lights and the heavens here.

Narratively, one challenge I think is that it feels awkward to not follow up on a story thread like this. It's also challenging because we're being asked to make this decision in isolation, rather than within a broader context of what cards we have on the table to play with. It can also be argued that this isn't actually a commitment to do it, just to have it on the table in negotiations.

Urgh, it's tricky.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

While I'm deeply interested in the Polar Nation, I'm also really interested in continuing the sorts of "Weilu plotlines" we have going, and it feels like not doing an astronomy here would hurt the former less than "doing an astronomy" would hurt the latter.

I was wrong, we did not meet up with the Meng during the Tournament Arc,
Gan had the Wand and Jia
Renxiand the Bai and Xuan
We the Bao and Luo

Was it the auction then?

We've talked with the Meng envoy to Shenhua's court during Hanyi's concert at the sect.
And some other meeting with her later where she told us about the Meng divisions.

Valmond said:

We've talked with the Meng enboy to Shenhua's court during Hanyi's concert at the sect.
And some other meeting with her later where she told us about the Meng divisions.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Thats where that happened, you´re quit right

Erebeal said:

At the same time it can fairly be pointed out that any research work is hardly urgent, and is hardly going to be something with immediate follow-up. These things take time. Indeed, if anything the findings here suggest that it's less urgent since any connection to the Star Spirits helping the nomads would seem to be contradicted by what we've learnt about the interaction of the demon lights and the heavens here.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Also, like... the "No" option doesn't actually mean that no astronomy stuff is going to be on the table. Minor deals are still going to be possible. It just won't be a focal point for the summit. Which I don't think is a bad thing? Like, this is just the first set of negotiations. There will be time and room for more major astronomy stuff later if the summit works out well.

Erebeal said:

Narratively, one challenge I think is that it feels awkward to not follow up on a story thread like this. It's also challenging because we're being asked to make this decision in isolation, rather than within a broader context of what cards we have on the table to play with. It can also be argued that this isn't actually a commitment to do it, just to have it on the table in negotiations.

Urgh, it's tricky.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Perhaps it's more realistic to be stumbling into things one at a time, but I really wish we were doing plan votes for this conference, and I normally hate plan votes.

[X] Yes, so many potential ties are made difficult by the sheer distance involved, but not this. Knowing the White Sky is a center of research for the polar nation only makes it a better choice.

[X] No adding more factors is a poor decision, minor deals on the side can be made, but anything more intensive should come later.

I'm with Laurent on this. Meng are too important to ditch and too influential to piss off further. We already suspect they started messing with our things cuz they didn't like what we do.

[X] No adding more factors is a poor decision, minor deals on the side can be made, but anything more intensive should come later.

The idea that we don't have enough balls in the air for this Conference and need to juggle even more is kinda baffling, to be honest.

Do it. Nothing says civilization then book nerds arguing about academics. You can hardly call them barbarians if scientists are hurling insults through publishing arcane mathmatic proofs back and forth at each other.

[X] Yes, so many potential ties are made difficult by the sheer distance involved, but not this. Knowing the White Sky is a center of research for the polar nation only makes it a better choice.

[X] No adding more factors is a poor decision, minor deals on the side can be made, but anything more intensive should come later.
Definitely interested in exploring this but don't think it's urgent. Even with Shenhua's interest, I doubt it'd be enough to get her to stand as vocal support so not worth issues with the Meng right now

yrsillar said:

Waiting for them here was Cai Renxiang, who was wearing her hair loose today, a curtain of black falling near to her feet. With her was a tall, thin and bookish looking man who it took her a long minute to place. She frowned a little, without Sixiang, she didn't quite remember his name, but he was the court astronomer that had spoken up for her in court.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The fact that Ling Qi can't remember people's names without Sixiang input is growing past being a joke and becoming an actual concerning problem.
She also didn't remeber Astronomer Wu's name when she met him a couple moths ago. And while he took it in good humor he also said he was "wounded" by Ling Qi not remembering him.
That Ling Qi has forgotten his name again even after that it's just rude, showing that she doesn't care or pay attention to the people that don't interest her.
I know that Ling Qi is portrayed as aloof, detached and a bit of an airhead about names, but this is just exaggerated.

The vote is a hard one.

On one hand, it's objectively beneficial to both parties. The White Sky gains access to state of the art astronomic equipment that isn't available to them. Astronomer Wu gains access to academic studies and myhtology from the WS instead of starting from zero, saving the Imperial side decades of investigation (even if further deals can be made later).
It's a scientific collaboration with no actual drawbacks. A win-win for everyone. It will even help each side to see each other as cultured, civilized people instead of untrustworthy barbarians.

But reputation management is also vital for the Summit.
It's truly infuriating having to deal with the MoI. I would be more than willing to work with them through actual threats and concerns. But when every issue boils down to "ugh, we have to share our nice stuff with these inferior people", it seems that anything and everything that helps the Summit annoys them. So we are left constantly wondering which vote is going to break the camel's back and make them start causing real problems.

On the other hand, this is the first time we have seen a way to increase Shenhua approval of this project. We have to remember that a ton of this whole ordeal is Shenhua bulldozing through and declaring by herself that it will be done.
Gaining "credit" with her may prove extremely valuable.

Then we have this comment from Yrs

yrsillar said:

Yes as stated the Meng and the Ministry will be iffy on it, you know the white sky is interested in access tho, and the more buildy tradey factions may like it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The "buildy tradey factions" clearly refer to the Wang and Bao. We are pretty good with the Wang already, but the Bao are more neutral so this could help.
I also believe it would be please the Luo representative. He wanted measures to ensure that the WS wouldn't just break the treaty at any time. Well, here we have a pretty good reason: they would lose access to the observatory if they the breach the agreements.

So that leaves the Meng as the most convoluted point. Again it comes down to "but we paid for it, why should we let those people use it?"
"Being testy" is quite an inaccurate way of describing their reaction. On one hand, not choosing to share the telescope isn't going to improve our rep with the Reactionaries. But doing it may worsen our rep with the Conservatives, or even turn some of them into Reactionaries.
We would need to find a way of making the Meng buy into it. Meng Dan told us that a reduction of raiding in the south Meng lands would be the only thing that can change his clan's attitude as a whole.
So we could convince the WS to help against the raiding nomads under the guise of protecting the very valuable and very delicate telescope as well as securing the supply routes it would need for its continued operation.
Now, that's an idea.

The WS would be obviously interested. Maybe interested enough to shut down any critics from the Pines opposing the Summit. It's annoying having to make the decision now before we have assessed the Pine's intentions.

Hmmm. Ultimately I'm going for this.

[X] Yes, so many potential ties are made difficult by the sheer distance involved, but not this. Knowing the White Sky is a center of research for the polar nation only makes it a better choice.

At the end we are just confirming to use the observatory as a bargaining chip. One we should be able to pull out if other conditions, ones which would appease the MoI and Meng, aren't met.
Like the help pacifying the area I mentioned before.

Though I understand the concern of adding too many pieces to the initial negotiation as well as pissing off the MoI too much.
So I wouldn't mind if the more conservative options wins.

Firstly, I'd say that being worried about the Meng is iffy. For one, our Weilu aspirations is long-term and won't be completed in a few months. Or years. Or decades. We're trying to make Weilu methods scalable so that they can fit in the whole province. Or at least the south. That'll take a LONG time. Plus, we're friends and pals with the leaders of the Meng reformist faction. They're the people we're trying to work with here. I don't think they're the faction who'll be offended by this. For the others? I'm not sure. The tapestry already legitimised this whole venture, and this can be an extension of that.

Secondly, framing this as a national security risk may pacify the MoI. I'm sure we can bring up how the Twilight King may have messed up the heavens and the effect of that all as a reason why we should support this. If not, then the demon lights are already a potential threat to the Emerald Seas.

Lastly, sharing the observatory and knowledge can make the White Sky seem more human because, well, they can't be barbarians if they can make reasonable assumptions and have developed astronomy despite a lack of advanced technology. The voting text is correct. So many potential connections with the WS have to deal with distance, but an academic centre in the shared location does not.

Plus, Glorious Oppression Mom is interested, and it gives credence to the theory that Shenhua powered her ascension with star baby juice. And I want to see more of Astronomer Wu!!!

[X] Yes, so many potential ties are made difficult by the sheer distance involved, but not this. Knowing the White Sky is a center of research for the polar nation only makes it a better choice.

I do agree that the summit may become too bloated. That's a valid concern. If it's not bloated, then it may run on too long, like T13 and the tournament arc. But I don't think that'll be a problem. Various things can be grouped together. For example, Wang Lian is working with the Seared Lands to research each side's formation styles. If it goes well, I'm sure we'll see a petition from the Wang to continue that instead of just for construction. So all this can be grouped into an arc about sharing academic knowledge.

OR, it can even be a trade. We have an upcoming quest to share information about the Ith-ia.

Nidallvar?: The White Sky have hinted at knowledge of your current foes.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We can trade access to the observatory for information from our enemies below. That'll satisfy the Meng since the Ith-ia attacks are a big danger in the South of the Emerald Seas. And the MoI too, since knowledge of an enemy that attacks imperial citizens is worth giving up concessions. We give them access to the observatory for access to records of a whole unfamiliar enemy front. Maybe the studies on the source of the flashing lights and the Ith-ia may be connected? To compress lots of plotlines together? I'm not sure.

Doramas said:

The fact that Ling Qi can't remember people's names without Sixiang input is growing past being a joke and becoming an actual concerning problem.
She also didn't remeber Astronomer Wu's name when she met him a couple moths ago. And while he took it in good humor he also said he was "wounded" by Ling Qi don't remembering him.
That Ling Qi has forgotten his name again even after that it's just rude, showing that she doesn't care or pay attention to the people that don't interest her.
I know that Ling Qi is portrayed as aloof, detached and a bit of an airhead about names, but this is just exaggerated.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, she honestly does need to take a bit of time to bone up on some of this, even if it involves flashcards or something. We did advance the Spirit Seeker not that long ago, back in Turn 17, with "Raising the Bastion" (Spirit Seeker trait) but we're definitely suffering a bit from the lack of Sixiang even as we're striding in other areas.

But I'm not sure what, in terms of Cultivation, could really help with that?[1] I guess getting an Intperturbale Soul would probably help our poker face in terms of, "Not making it obvious we're trying to remember people's names." More Spirit Seeker also has minor knock-on effects to our Social skills with non-spirits, and might also help our social interactions with, uh, higher-level Cultivators.

[1] Non-Cultivation actions would be a matter of what we're presented.

Spirit Seeker unlocks a trait-advancing quest that will probably fuse all our social traits so maybe.