Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Stacking charms cannot take the DC below 3, I think that is RaI even if it is not RaW.
Last question then, if you don't mind - what would the base DC be? Ie, the question is - does it make sense to use BSM here, or would that be pointless?
This is another of those opportunities where you are risking carelessly giving away unnecessary information.
We aren't keeping BSM secret. It's simply not viable at all, if we are to make use of it. Secrecy is important, but not when it makes using our advantages impossible or overly complicated.
 
Last question then, if you don't mind - what would the base DC be? Ie, the question is - does it make sense to use BSM here, or would that be pointless?

We aren't keeping BSM secret. It's simply not viable at all, if we are to make use of it. Secrecy is important, but not when it makes using our advantages impossible or overly complicated.

7 for for the curses, 8 for the enchantment, high but you are trying to convert nuclear hand grenades to something mortals can use.
 
We are trying to put a ward on a place without a threshold.
Yes? And?

Seriously, look at the people here.
These are Ordo Lebes minor talents, with very little formal training, if any.
Why do you think they'd be involved in stuff thats particularly difficult? They were planning on doing this shit without us.
 
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7 for for the curses, 8 for the enchantment, high but you are trying to convert nuclear hand grenades to something mortals can use.
Ok then, so using BSM is logical.

[X] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
-[X] Occult and Leadership (if appropriate) excellencies
-[X] Upend a bottle of water onto your head to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
-[X] Use tool transcending constructs (ideally limited to handheld ones) to prepare the physical anchors for the wards.
-[X] Call Lydia and check when she's going to arrive. Ask others to wait for her, she could probably aid at least somewhat. Use the spare time to prepare the ritual site.
-[X] Make it clear that, if possible, you'll be helping with both rituals, you are just starting with the curse one.
-[X] STUNT: "... Ok, we'll wait for you to arrive before starting. Thanks, bye!" you close your phone, having finished talking to Lydia. In your hands, still wet from the bottle of water you upended on your head, brushes and other painting tools manifest, as, guided by your power, you draw symbols on the floor to make a ritual circle, all the while taking into account the input from Hellen and others, so it works best with how they do magic.


A streamlined vote that maximizes the success potential. I don't consider keeping BSM (or, rather, one aspect of it) secret viable long-term or strongly important here.
 
We aren't keeping BSM secret. It's simply not viable at all, if we are to make use of it. Secrecy is important, but not when it makes using our advantages impossible or overly complicated.
I straight up dont agree.

Where its necessary, sure. It isnt here. This is not something that needs to be rushed, and its palpably within the capabilities of the Ordo Lebes to raise wards around the homes of their members.
Takes them time, but they can do it just fine.

We're just here for the social connects , and to stack up extra successes on the ritual roll.
We dont have to go all out and show our every card in the process.

If TLF wasnt procing, you'd have an argument.
But TLF is procing. Between TLF and an Occult Excellency, we're likely almost assured to crack Legendary levels of success(5 successes +) on a dice pool of 20 dice (Int 4 + Occult 5 + Excellency 9 + Stunt 2). And quite likely to hit 10 successes+.

We dont need to do more.
 
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20 dice, difficulty 4… back-of-the-napkin math says 14 successes average, 16 because we're ignoring 1s. Granted, that's just an average, I'm not up to quickly calculating the probability ranges for different numbers, but still more than enough to make for a really nasty curse, especially with the rest of the coven adding their successes to the pool. And we'll probably have a qualitative bonus hitting above the normal weight class of that number of successes because we're fueling a curse with the essence of an Infernal Exalt, and the curse in question looks very thematically similar to a Kakuri Charm, which we have favored.

This is plenty to mess up the day of anyone who comes knocking with ill intent. Adding another 2 successes to the average by using BSM is not qualitatively different enough to reveal our hand.
 
I straight up dont agree.

Where its necessary, sure. It isnt here. This is not something that needs to be rushed, and its palpably within the capabilities of the Ordo Lebes to raise wards around the homes of their members.
Takes them time, but they can do it just fine.

We're just here for the social connects , and to stack up extra successes on the ritual roll.
We dont have to go all out and show our every card in the process.

If TLF wasnt procing, you'd have an argument.
But TLF is procing. Between TLF and an Occult Excellency, we're likely to crack Legendary levels of success on a dice pool of 20 dice (Int 4 + Occult 5 + Excellency 9 + Stunt 2).

We dont need to do more.
My argument, point-by-point, and then I am going to sleep:
1) Is BSM useful here? Yes, because base difficulty is 7. Using BSM lowers it to 3, without it, it's 4.
2) Are there stakes here? Yes, this can in the future save someone's life. Even if the probability of this coming to pass is low, it's still important.
3) Does using BSM here cost us anything? Yes, the people present will learn that Molly works while wet and might draw some conclusions from it. It's doubtful they'll be able to discern the mechanisms behind it.
4) Does the information about BSM's aspect (without direct confirmation from us, and based on their speculation) harm us? Doubtful, because:
4.1) It only harms us if it leaks to our enemies. There might be spies here, but that's paranoic, these people gave us no reason to doubt them, and Rose of Autumn bought them a lot of credit and essentially vouched for them. They might also be caught and interrogated by our enemies. The stronger the wards are here, the less likely it is, even if indirectly. Even if they are caught, they can only offer their speculations.
4.2) We aren't likely to keep BSM's "we are better when wet" secret long term, if we are to use it in combat at all, unless we murder everyone we fight together with.
4.3) Our enemies learning of this aspect of our powers doesn't make it easier for them to stop us from using them. They can, what, blast us with fire to dry us off? Blasting us with fire was a viable strategy anyway.

So, we can potentially save someone's life at low possible (not a given) cost to us. I consider it reasonable to use BSM here.

Plus, I'll admit, I detest "keep all your secrets always, even when revealing them costs us nothing, and might help us" mindset. Tools are there to be used, not stashed away in fear of someone seeing them.
20 dice, difficulty 4… back-of-the-napkin math says 14 successes average, 16 because we're ignoring 1s. Granted, that's just an average, I'm not up to quickly calculating the probability ranges for different numbers, but still more than enough to make for a really nasty curse, especially with the rest of the coven adding their successes to the pool. And we'll probably have a qualitative bonus hitting above the normal weight class of that number of successes because we're fueling a curse with the essence of an Infernal Exalt, and the curse in question looks very thematically similar to a Kakuri Charm, which we have favored.

This is plenty to mess up the day of anyone who comes knocking with ill intent. Adding another 2 successes to the average by using BSM is not qualitatively different enough to reveal our hand.
"legendarity" of success seems to be graded at 5 successes (5-10-15), so ensuring we pass 15 successes could be important.
 
While reading this update i couldn't help thinking of Molly putting in her occult infernal Ferdinand Foch cap and thinking 'no threshold, the people that are going to be here don't think of it as anything but a dungeon, it looks like a place of desolation, there are supernatural hitmen targeting my charges, it's cold. Situation excellent. I ward the shit out of this'.
 
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All of this is making me wonder if raising some wards on the Carpenter house might be a good idea. I know that it has a threshold that looks like a castle wall. But wards are even better when placed on strong thresholds and it is possible that the house might be attacked by free willed mortals. I know that White God will likely give some kind of help in that case, but it seems only fair to make the job easier on him.

Of course convincing Charity of all that feels a little impossible.

I would vote for Yog, but I like my current stunt. Also not sure if using TTC is likely to help without fixing the place up. Which we don't want to do because we want to keep it a place of desolation.
 
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Well unfortunately the current weight of votes seems to not use BSM no matter how you count them. Is that really the consensus of the thread?
 
[x] Yog

All of this is making me wonder if raising some wards on the Carpenter house might be a good idea. I know that it has a threshold that looks like a castle wall. But wards are even better when placed on strong thresholds and it is possible that the house might be attacked by free willed mortals. I know that White God will likely give some kind of help in that case, but it seems only fair to make the job easier on him.

Of course convincing Charity of all that feels a little impossible.

In the wake of her house being broken into, her daughter kidnapped and her son beaten, I suspect she may be more amenable to having wards raised than she previously was.

We'd probably need to buy some dots in Warding though.
 
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My argument, point-by-point, and then I am going to sleep:
1) Is BSM useful here? Yes, because base difficulty is 7. Using BSM lowers it to 3, without it, it's 4.
2) Are there stakes here? Yes, this can in the future save someone's life. Even if the probability of this coming to pass is low, it's still important.
3) Does using BSM here cost us anything? Yes, the people present will learn that Molly works while wet and might draw some conclusions from it. It's doubtful they'll be able to discern the mechanisms behind it.
4) Does the information about BSM's aspect (without direct confirmation from us, and based on their speculation) harm us? Doubtful, because:
4.1) It only harms us if it leaks to our enemies. There might be spies here, but that's paranoic, these people gave us no reason to doubt them, and Rose of Autumn bought them a lot of credit and essentially vouched for them. They might also be caught and interrogated by our enemies. The stronger the wards are here, the less likely it is, even if indirectly. Even if they are caught, they can only offer their speculations.
4.2) We aren't likely to keep BSM's "we are better when wet" secret long term, if we are to use it in combat at all, unless we murder everyone we fight together with.
4.3) Our enemies learning of this aspect of our powers doesn't make it easier for them to stop us from using them. They can, what, blast us with fire to dry us off? Blasting us with fire was a viable strategy anyway.

So, we can potentially save someone's life at low possible (not a given) cost to us. I consider it reasonable to use BSM here.

Plus, I'll admit, I detest "keep all your secrets always, even when revealing them costs us nothing, and might help us" mindset. Tools are there to be used, not stashed away in fear of someone seeing them.

"legendarity" of success seems to be graded at 5 successes (5-10-15), so ensuring we pass 15 successes could be important.
1) BSM is of marginal use here.
We're throwing 20 dice at a Key ability, which due to TLF will be at DC4.
We are guaranteed Legendary success even if the rest of the coven contributes zero successes.



2)I am not worried about the Ordo Lebes as a direct threat.
I do however care about who they talk to, willingly or not, and what those people do with that information.
Just like I care about who might be eavesdropping on us right now, which is something Anduriel, Master of Shadows is known for.



3)I will draw your attention to the fact that literally noone else here has told us what they can do.
Abby cant hide she appears to be a Divination Path primary, but every other initiate here has remained cagey about their capabilities, even the one with the invisible magic guardian.



4)Two out of the three elements of this crossover are urban fantasy settings, where information security is a key element of the setting and where often small details can prove critical.

Case in point: Do you know how human magic users are contained in Dresden Files?
Option A: Antimagic bracelets if available
Option B: Hold them under running water. Because water dissipates most magical energies.

Critically, this was part of how Nicodemus held Dresden after capturing him in Death Masks.

I would rather keep everyone not in our close confidence under the impression that water is a weakness for us unless its actually necessary otherwise. And not just for an unnecessary flex.
Please.
 
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[] Plan Sun's Glare
-[] Attempt to give the sun ward a little more kick
-[] Use BSM, occult excellency, and TTC where appropriate, but attempt to hide the function of the charms
-[] Stunt: As the Ordo empowers a ward based on false sunlight, it tugs at something less than a memory but more than a sensation tugs at a place behind her heart, bubbling up through her mind in the form of a memory; "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.". As she engraves strange runes into its foundation, Molly reaches out with the parts of her that whispers of terror and supremacy to kindle an ember in the stillborn light of the ward.

Basic idea is to try for baking in an intimidation effect into the sun ward, so that it scares the piss out of anyone that triggers it. Nothing like the feeling of Sauron's eye on your soul to make a body flee in terror.

[] Plan Ark of the Covenant
-[] Use BSM, occult excellency, and TTC where appropriate, but attempt to hide the function of the charms
-[] Stunt: Looking over the twisting symbols defining the empty light of the ward, Molly reaches out and fills it with a bit of herself. With each rune carved into the design with inhuman precision that spark of nuclear hate is given more definite shape; something that burns short and bright, but in that time scours the blood and bones of those who would oppose it.

This one is basically the simplest cursed light idea; if someone triggers the ill will part of the ward they get acute radiation poisoning from nuclear hate fire frying their dna.
 
Now doesn't seem like the time to go fullbore on warding the apartment. Yes, we should help, but this encounter is more about establishing ourselves as a non-hostile associate, one with a good reputation, rather than a scary powerhouse capable of doing freaky, esoteric shit.

Let's get our foot in the door, so to speak, before we blow their minds.
 
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[X] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
-[X]Call Lydia since she's running late, and get an ETA on her arrival
-[X]Occult Excellency
-[X]STUNT: Pursing your lips, you cross the room to take a second look into the corridor outside, then come back into the room, stomping on the floor repeatedly. "Wooden floorboards, here and in the corridor. Wooden doorframe. Wooden doors too." you say to yourself. Ash makes an unladylike grunt of realization, but Pauline and Abby both look visibly confused. "Enough power to give people full body burns through their clothes" you continue, addressing the group "is going to be enough power to set that entire corridor on fire, and trap the intruder AND occupant in a burning building." At their dawning looks of comprehension, you continue. "There's other civilians living here. Children too. Collateral damage." You see Beckitt flinch at the term, and file away that datum for later. "My opinion" you stress the word "is we go with the curse option. More precise. Also less likely to bring the police looking for who set off the bomb."
 
Now doesn't seem like the time to go fullbore on warding the apartment. Yes, we should help, but this encounter is more about establishing ourselves as a non-hostile associate, one with a good reputation, rather than a scary powerhouse capable of doing freaky, esoteric shit.

Let's get our foot in the door, so to speak, before we blow their minds.
I figure that blowing their minds is how we get a foot in the door.
 
All of this is making me wonder if raising some wards on the Carpenter house might be a good idea. I know that it has a threshold that looks like a castle wall. But wards are even better when placed on strong thresholds and it is possible that the house might be attacked by free willed mortals. I know that White God will likely give some kind of help in that case, but it seems only fair to make the job easier on him.

Of course convincing Charity of all that feels a little impossible.
Michael and Charity didnt see the need for wards for the two plus decades that he was hunting Denarians.

They didnt suddenly see the need for magic wards after the fetch attack in Proven Guilty in canon.
Didnt see the need after the Brothers Gruff attacked in Small Favor.
Didnt see the need after they adopted Maggie Dresden after Changes.

I dont expect that to change here.

Whats more likely to be reasonable and easier is getting them pets.
A pair of nice Labradors, or St Bernards, or Golden Retrievers. And maybe a cat.
Household that big could use a couple animals.

Then either train them, or ask Lydia to do so when she has the appropriate charms.
 
Now doesn't seem like the time to go fullbore on warding the apartment. Yes, we should help, but this encounter is more about establishing ourselves as a non-hostile associate, one with a good reputation, rather than a scary powerhouse capable of doing freaky, esoteric shit.

Let's get our foot in the door, so to speak, before we blow their minds.
I can see it both ways. We shouldn't go beyond the bounds of the actual warding, but Molly is a powerhouse capable of freaky esoteric shit. Trying to downplay that too much could backfire and make them more paranoid.

I don't want to leak more information or anything, but in the bounds of what we can show them doing our best solidifies the image we want to project; a young mortal growing into great power.
I would rather keep everyone not in our close confidence under the impression that water is a weakness for us unless its actually necessary otherwise. And not just for an unnecessary flex.
Please.
We don't actually have to use water, any liquid would work. They also have effectively zero understanding of our 'tradition' such as it is.

We could compromise by mixing up something that looks like some sort of ritual oil blend and have Molly apply it with slightly more care than simply dumping it on her head.

It's not exactly lying, and it gives the impression that we're working some specific sort of channeling ritual instead of invoking divine mastery of liquids.

In a way it's actually a nice smoke screen, because if we make a permanent oil based wet suit style thing (probably as an armor upgrade) and/or take care to carry around something other than water for on the spot BSM use we could use it more freely and conceal the details of it's actual function.

People assuming we're preparing some weird and bullshit buff potion equivalent makes them more likely to try going after our props instead of separating us from useful environments.

If we're particularly lucky someone might even try to cancel BSM by washing the oil off with a fire hose or something. :V

Edit:

Baring some sort of addition to the other plans that puts effort to conceal what exactly BSM does Uju32's plan seems more reasonable.

[X] uju32
 
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Yeah I agree, anointing Molly with oil would work much better. Especially since it looks somewhat linked with various Christian traditions of doing so.
 
[x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
-[X]Occult Excellency
-[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
-[X] If possible anoint yourself in oil in a ritual fashion to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
 
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