Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Every case has to be evaluated on its own basis. In case of cyberdevils, yes, there is a point to keeping them secret. Them not being secret limits their utility strongly, harms our reputation, and opens a number of ways to counter them. In case of BSM... Ok, let's model the situation - people observe that Molly periodically dumps water on her head to no visible effect. Assuming this gets back to our enemies (that's already a strong assumption), what can they learn from it, and what can they do about it? They can hypothesize that water / being wet is somehow either necessary for us (false), or beneficial for us (true to an extent). What can they do about it? They can try to deny us access to it - very hard to do in a way that's not already an attack anyway. They can try to poison the water / substitute it for something else - useless against us, and likely cost. They can... I am drawing blank on further suggestions.

My point is - not only is it unlikely that us using BSM will leak from this specific incident, even if it does, it doesn't give our enemies actionable intel that harms us.
Assuming unknown enemies of unknown capabilities can't find a way to do something in an unknown period of time is a stronger assumption than anything I'm making.

It gives them a direction to dig in, potential new attack surfaces, things to look out for indicating that we are preparing to or are otherwise in the middle of doing something interesting, and a roughly accurate data point to plan around.

In terms of direct counters there are plenty they could try. For example, by getting a water elementalist to water bend it off, some sort of desert spirit to tap us with a desiccation curse, or a pyromancer to dry us with fire.

That aside, no one competent is going to hang a plan around a guess; they'll try things to tilt the odds without trapping themselves and learn from their attempts. Note that each of the probes you described would immediately reveal a new aspect of the charm.

We can't stop that completely but we can make it more complicated, less certain, and generally harder to do reliably.

It's like armor; it can't completely stop you from getting stabbed or shot, but it's way better than running around buck naked and asking people if that mole looks cancerous to them in the middle of a fight.

We just have to keep some armor up at all times because what we leak now is leaked forever.


And again, we're lucky that in this case we can make full use of our abilities and remain reasonably safe with relatively little effort. It's not like I'm suggesting we refuse to use charms in front of people we intend to leave alive or something ridiculous like that.
Water really doesn't hinder magic over much. Sudden unexpected deluges does, like breaking a major water line. Little Chicago would be completely unviable if water was an actual problem. Hell the first book is all about a minor talent exploiting storms power to super charge their magic.
In most of the scenes involving taking boats to demonreach Harry mentions that casting across the surface of the lake makes things more difficult by a noteworthy degree.

It doesn't stop anyone in those fights because they're mostly people who are badass enough to shrug it off, but it's still worth noting Harry is saying that. It's like hearing a professional body builder in the top 10% of his industry in terms of pure muscle power call something kinda heavy.

Edit: corrected phone posting related typos.
 
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shrug.jpg
Dev thinks "wow, illusion-based shapeshifting is very useful, could be applicable to many situations, prolly should nerf it a little to prevent abuse and then assign 5 dots"...
...While forgetting that Infernals can accomplish 80% of everything it does with a cosmetics case + Excellency.

Ooops.

It get worse if Infernal actually gets their hand on professional film-theatre-etc make-up artist kit. It gets significantly worse if QM allows Illusion path from various sorc books.

Although now that I re-reading the text of the charm, "Deduction may reveal the Infernal for an impostor, but imperfections in the disguise itself never will." might point toward the intent being it covering supernatural senses too. IDK.
Also, Shapeshifting Path magic.
1 dot is enough to replicate everything that BMI is supposed to do for around 4XP. Compared to the 15XP cost of a favored 5 dot charm. And unlike BMI, it wont deactivate the first time we flare our anima.

ExWoD's version of the charm just sucks.
And as I said, I want to go beyond legendary. I want 15+ successes. And every bit helps. Does BSM help here? It does. SO it should be used.
We're well into diminishing returns by the time you have already hit twice the legendary threshold.
I am strongly against piling up successes for heck of it in this situation.
The juice is not worth the squeeze.
And we aren't telling them anything. We are participating in magic ritual with them. They will be doing their magic before our eyes. We will be free to draw our own conclusions, same as they are. I am not proposing to sit down and say "so, I have this ability to become better at all things when wet, and it also gives me ability to breathe underwater, and run on water, etc." I am proposing that we upend a bottle of water onto our head and do casting while wet. The most they can conclude based on this is... what exactly? That our magic is somehow liquid related?
They are neither blind nor stupid.
They will see what we do and draw their own conclusions. Other entities(see Mrs Moskowitz's spirit companion for an example) will see what we do and draw their own conclusions.

Yes?
Magic and water dont often mix very well. Its usually harder to work magic over water for many wizards, and moving water tends to disrupt magic. There are magic creatures who live and thrive and use supernatural abilities in water, but evocation is not the norm.

The Fomor are one of the few factions who appear to use magic comfortably underwater.
We are not a mortal magic user. At all. No one of any importance will ever mistake us for a mortal magic user. This is unnecessary and useless. And this ship has sailed already, see the underwater battle with red court vampires. We did blatant magic while submerged in water there. Upending a water bottle on our head and doing magic while wet isn't revealing anything new. And Anduriel was far more likely to have been looking then, than they are now, since they are likely to be spying on Michael during his "official" missions.
-And where did I say anything about it being only mortal magic?

In Grave Peril, the Nightmare had its ectoplasm body disrupted when Dresden tackled it into running water.
Running water. The answer was all around me.

I moved forward, toward the Nightmare. It swung at me with one flailing arm, and I felt it clip my shoulder as it swept down. Then I threw myself into the Nightmare's body, hit it hard. We tumbled together down the slope, toward the newly forming stream.

You ever hear the Legend of Sleepy Hollow? Remember the part with poor old Ichabod riding like blazes for the covered bridge and safety? Running water grounds magical energies. Creatures of the Nevernever, spirit bodies, cannot cross it without losing all the energy required to keep those bodies here. That was the answer.

I rolled down the slope with the Nightmare, and felt its hands tearing at me. We went down into the stream together, as one of its hands clenched my throat and shut off my breath.

And then it began to scream. It jerked and twisted atop me in eight or nine inches of running water, shrieking. The thing's body just started melting away, like sugar in water, starting at its feet and moving up. I watched it, watched myself dissolve with a morbid kind of fascination. It writhed, it bucked, it thrashed.

"Wizard," it said, voice bubbling. "This is not over. Not over. When the sun sets again, wizard, I wil
l be back for thee!"

"Melt already," I mumbled. And, seconds later, the Nightmare vanished, leaving only sticky gook behind, on my coat, my throat.
In Turn Coat, the naagloshii had its first salvo of magic neutralized by Listens to Wind calling down water on it.
The skinwalker snarled. "Old spirit caller. The failed guardian of a dead people. I do not fear you. "

"Maybe you should," Listens-to-Wind said. "The boy almost took you, and he doesn't even know the Din¨¦, much less the Old Ways. Begone. Last chance. "

The naagloshii let out a warbling growl as its body changed, thickening, growing physically thicker, more powerful-looking. "You are not a holy man. You do not follow the Blessing Way. You have no power over me. "

"Don't plan to bind or banish you, old ghost," Injun Joe said. "Just gonna kick your ass up between your ears. " He clenched his hands into fists and said, "Let's go. "

The skinwalker let out a howl and hurled its arms forward. Twin bands of darkness cascaded forth, splintering into dozens and dozens of shadowy serpents that slithered through the night air in a writhing cloud, darting toward Listens-to-Wind. The medicine man didn't flinch. He lifted his arms to the sky, threw back his head, and sang in the wavering, high-pitched fashion of the native tribes. The rain, which had vanished almost entirely, came down again in an almost solid sheet of water that fell on maybe fifty square yards of hilltop, drenching the oncoming swarm of sorcery and melting it to nothing before it could become a threat.

Injun Joe looked back down again at the naagloshii. "That the best you got?"
In Small Favor, Dresden shut down the magic smokescreen of an attacking army of hobs by triggering the sprinklers in the railway station
An empowered circle could cut the power to the spell from the other side of the equation, isolating the hobs from the flow of energy outside the circle. But the circle would need to encompass the entire freaking building. I doubted the hobs would be considerate enough to let me run outside and sprint around an entire Chicago city block to fire up a circle. Besides, I didn't have that much chalk. Running water can ground out a spell if there's enough of it, but given that we were inside a building, that wasn't in the cards. So how the hell was I supposed to cut off this stupid spell, given the pathetic resources I had? It isn't like there are a whole lot of ways to rob a widespread working of its power.

My nose throbbed harder, and I leaned my head back, turning my face upward. Sometimes doing that seemed to reduce the pressure and ease the pain a little. I stared up at the office ceiling, which had been installed at a height of ten or eleven feet, rather than leaving the place open to the cavernous reaches of the old station, and beat my head against the proverbial wall. The ceiling was one of those drop-down setups, a metal framework supporting dreary yet cost-effective rectangles of acoustic material, interrupted every few yards by the ugly little cowboy spur of an automatic firefighting sprinkler.

My eyes widened.

"Ha!" I said, and threw my arms up in the air. "Ha-ha! Ah-hahahaha! I am wizard; hear me roar!"

Mouse gave me an oblique look and sidled a step farther away from me.

"And well you should!" I bellowed, pointing at the dog. "For I am a fearsome bringer of fire!" I held up my right hand and with a murmur called up the tiny sphere of flame. The spell stuttered and coughed before it coalesced, and even then the light was barely brighter than a candle.

"Harry?" Michael asked in that tone of voice people use when they talk to crazy people. "What are you doing?"

The drywall to one side of the door suddenly buckled as a hob's claws began ripping through it. Michael bobbed to one side, temporarily leaving the door, held his thumb up to the wall, as if judging where the stud would be, and then ran Amoracchius at an angle through the drywall. The Sword came back hissing and spitting, while another hob howled with pain.

"Without the myrk, these things are in trouble," I said. "Carol, be a dear and roll that chair over here. "

Carol, her eyes very wide, her face very pale, did so. She gave the chair a little push, so that it came the last six feet on its own.

Michael's shoulder hit the door as another hob tried to push in. The creature wasn't stupid. It didn't keep trying to force the door when Amoracchius plunged through the wood as if it had been a rice-paper screen, and Michael's Sword came back unstained. "Whatever you're going to do, sooner would be better than later. "

"Two minutes," I said. I rolled the chair to the right spot and stood up on it. I wobbled for a second, then stabilized myself and quickly unscrewed the sprinkler from its housing. Foul-smelling water rushed out in its wake, which I had expected and mostly avoided. Granted, I hadn't expected it to smell quite so overwhelmingly stagnant, though I should have. Many sprinkler systems have closed holding tanks, and God only knew how many years that water had been in there, waiting to be used.

I hopped down out of the chair and moved out from under the falling water. I pulled one of the pieces of chalk out of my pocket, knelt, and began to draw a large circle all around me on the low-nap carpet. It didn't have to be a perfect circle, as long as it was closed, but I've drawn a lot of them, and by now they're usually pretty close.

"E-excuse me," Carol said. "Wh-what are you doing?"

"Our charming visitors are known as hobs," I told her, drawing carefully, infusing the chalk with some of my will as I did so. "Light hurts them. "

A hob burst through the already broken drywall, this time getting its head and one shoulder through. It howled and raked at Michael, who was still leaning on the door. Michael's hip got ripped by a claw, but then Amoracchius swept down and took the hob's head from its shoulders in reply. Dark, blazing blood spattered the room, and some of it nearly hit my circle.

"Hey!" I complained. "I'm working here!"

"Sorry," Michael said without a trace of sarcasm. A hob slammed into the door before he could return to it, and drove him several paces back. He recovered in time to duck under the swing of a heavy club, then swept Amoracchius across the creature's belly and followed it up with a heavy, thrusting kick that shoved the wicked faerie out of the room and back into its fellows. Michael slammed the door shut again.

"B-but it's dark," Carol stammered, staring at Michael and me alternately.

"They've put something in the air called myrk. Think of it as a smoke screen. The myrk is keeping the lights from hurting the hobs," I said. I finished the circle and felt it spring to life around me, an intangible curtain of power that walled away outside magic-including the myrk that had been caught inside the circle as it formed. It congealed into a thin coating of slimy ectoplasm over everything in the circle-which is to say, me. "Super," I mumbled, and swiped it out of my eyes as best I could.

"S-so," Carol said, "what are you doing, exactly?"


"I'm going to take their smoke screen away. " I held the sprinkler head in my right hand and closed my eyes, focusing on it, on its texture, its shape, its composition. I began pouring energy into the object, imagining it as a glowing aura of blue-white light with dozens of little tendrils sprouting from it. Once the energy was firmly wrapped around the sprinkler, I transferred it to my left hand and extended my right again.

"B-but we don't have any lights. "

"Oh, we have lights," I said. I held out my right hand and called forth my little ball of sunshine. In the myrk-free interior of the circle, it was as white-hot and as bright as usual, but I could see that outside of the circle it didn't spread more than five or six feet through the myrk out there.

"Oh, my God," Carol said.

"Actually, all the regular lights are on too-they're just being blocked. The myrk isn't shutting down the electricity. These computers are all on, for example-but the myrk is keeping you from seeing any of the indicator lights. "

"Harry!" Michael called.

"You rush a miracle worker, you get lousy miracles!" I called back in an annoyed tone. The rest of the spell was going to be a little tricky.

"H-how are you doing that?" Carol breathed.

"Magic," I growled. "Hush. " I wore a leather glove over my left hand, as usual, which should offer my scarred skin a little protection. All the same, this wouldn't be much fun. I murmured, "Ignus, infusiarus," and thrust the end of the sprinkler into the flame floating over my right hand.

"How does this help us?" Carol demanded, her voice shaking and frightened.

"This place still has electricity," I said. Maybe I was imagining the smell of burned leather as the heat from the flame poured into the metal sprinkler. "It still has computers. It still has phones. "

"Harry!" Michael said, swinging his head left and right, staring up at the ceiling. "They're climbing. They're going to come through the roof. "

I began to feel the heat, even in the nerve-damaged fingers of my left hand. It was going to have to be hot enough. I drew up more of my will, lifted the sprinkler and the flame, and visualized what I wanted, the tendrils of energy around it zipping out to every other sprinkler head in the whole building. "And it still has its sprinklers. "

I broke the circle with my foot, and energy lashed out from the sprinkler to every other object shaped like it in the surrounding area. Heat washed out of me in a wave, headed in dozens of different directions, and I poured all the energy I could into the little ball of sunshine, which suddenly had several dozen sprinkler heads to absorb its energy instead of only one.

It took maybe ten seconds before the fire detector let out a howl and the sprinkler system chattered to life. People let out surprised little shrieks, and a steady emergency klaxon wound to life somewhere out in the station. Sparks flew up from several phones, monitors, and computers.

"Okay," I said. "So the office doesn't have computers. But the rest still applies. "

Michael looked up at me and showed me his teeth in a ferocious grin. "When?"

I watched my little ball of sunshine intensely as the water came down. For maybe half a minute nothing happened, except that we got drenched. It was actually kind of surprising how much water was coming down-surprising in a good way, I mean. I wanted lots of water.

Somewhere around the sixty-second mark I felt my spell begin to flicker, its power eroded away by the constant downpour.

"Wait for it," I said. "Ready. . . "

At two minutes my spell buckled, the connection to the other sprinklers snapping, the fire in my hand snuffing out. "Michael!" I shouted. "Now!"


Michael grunted and flung open the door. Before he'd stepped through it there was a sudden flutter of faltering power in the air, and the holy blade blazed with light brighter than the heart of the sun itself.

He plunged through the door, and as the burning light of Amoracchius emerged into the station at large, dozens or hundreds of hob throats erupted into tortured cries. The sound of the wicked faeries' screams was so loud that I actually felt the pressure it put on my ears, the way you can at a really loud concert.

But louder still was the voice of Michael Carpenter, Knight of the Cross, avenging angel incarnate, bearer of the blade that had once belonged to a squire called Wart. "Lava quod est sordium!" Michael bellowed, his voice stentorian, too enormous to come from a human throat. "In nomine Dei, sana quod est saucium!"

After the Sword had left the room, I could see that all the office lights had come back, as well as those outside. "Mouse!" I screamed. "Stay! Guard the wounded!" I hurried after Michael and glanced back behind me. Mouse trotted forward and planted himself in the doorway between the hobs and the people in the office, head high, legs braced wide to fill the space.

Outside the sprinklers were doing a credible impersonation of a really stinky monsoon. I slipped in a puddle of water and burning hob blood a few feet outside the door. The light from the Sword was so bright, so purely, even painfully white that I had to shield my eyes with one arm. I couldn't look directly at Michael, or even anywhere near him, so I followed him by the pieces of hob he left in his wake.
In Battlegrounds, the Titan Ethniu had its magic and the Eye of Balor superweapon neutralized by Titania calling down a rainstorm on it.
Titania's voice rang into the night like a silver bell. "Clever of you, Ethniu, to attack my sister at midsummer, when she is at her weakest." A growl of thunder added punctuation to the end of her sentence. "But it was shortsighted to assume she would stand alone."

There was a thrumming in the air, a quivering sensation of nauseated terror that went through me like a bullet, and suddenly the silver-grey eight-legged steed whom the legends named Sleipnir thundered out of the night sky, its hooves digging up mounds of earth to arrest its momentum. The great horse reared, kicking the scorched air with all four forehooves, and the terrible shadow upon its back lifted a hand that suddenly clasped a bolt of lightning.

When the Erlking landed, he did so in total silence, despite the heavy faemetal plate he wore over his usual hunting leathers. He landed in a crouch, flanking the Titan opposite the terrible rider, and drew his antler-handled hunting sword as he faced Ethniu.

I wanted nothing at all to do with this fight, and I started trying to worm out of the immediate blast radius without being noticed.

"I give you this single opportunity," Titania continued. "Withdraw from the mortal world. Return to your sanctuary. It will end here."

"As if you could offer or deny me anything I chose to take," Ethniu snarled. "Petty little demigod."

And with that she unleashed the power of the Eye.

Titania was waiting for it.

The torrent of destructive fire struck out at Titania—but rather than trying to oppose or endure it, she did the opposite. She spread her arms wide, rolled at her hips and lower back in a peculiarly dancelike motion, and rather than striking her, the torrent of energy bent and twisted, sending all that heat and hate spiraling up into the night sky.

Up into the sky that had, only a moment before, been full of freezing air and sleet, courtesy of the Winter Lady.

To call what happened next "rain" is something of an understatement.

Great, grinding thunder raised its voice in a throaty roar, and the air turned to falling water.

Water and magic are awfully finicky around each other. Enough running water tends to disperse and ground out magical energy, so much so that entities whose existence most depended on magic dared not cross even a running stream.

Titania didn't so much summon a thunderstorm as she created an improvised waterfall.

Down smashed the rain so thickly that I had to cover my mouth with a hand in order to be able to breathe.

And I felt the shift in power happening.

The terror of the city and its hovering magical potential in the air began to melt away like a sandcastle before the tide. The water sluiced down over the city, washing the air clean once more. Magic began to bleed out of the air and sink back into the earth, drawn along by the heavy rain.

It couldn't come down that hard for very long. It was maybe thirty seconds. Definitely no more than sixty. And then the rain abruptly stopped, as if a switch had been thrown, and only a few light, sporadic raindrops continued to fall. The city went from a roar to almost complete silence. The quivering reservoir of concentrated dread, ready to be collected and used, had withered and melted away.

And with its energy supply abruptly missing, the sullen fire of the Eye guttered and nearly went out.


Ethniu let out a short, sharp exhalation and lifted her left hand to the Eye.

Titania lowered her face, gleaming from the flood, and focused bright green feline eyes upon the Titan, her expression as set and immovable as the earth.
Most magic being shut down by running water is essentially a standing norm of the Dresdenverse.
There are carve outs and exceptions to the rule, but as demonstrated it generally holds true for mortal and non mortal magic.
From minor mooks all the way to the biggest players.


-We didnt have Boiling Sea Mastery during the fight with the Reds.
We certainly didnt use any magic there eitner. No evocation. No thaumaturgy. No summoning.
Just the sword and flight.

You are conflating Dresdenverse magic and supernatural abilities.
They arent (generally)the same thing, and dont necessarily seem to work on the same principles.



-Do you genuinely think that Enemy(Denarians) 2 rating on our character sheet is there for show?
That we shouldnt keep in mind that we are of interest to a bunch of Fallen angels with distance surveillance capabilities, and who are likely to acquire any titbits of information about our capabilities that make it into general circulation?

Never mind Nemesis, who we are planning on aggroing hard.
Or the Fomor, who we just aggro'd in Cleveland.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Dec 27, 2022 at 9:22 AM, finished with 125 posts and 18 votes.

  • [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X]Call Lydia since she's running late, and get an ETA on her arrival
    -[X]Occult Excellency
    -[X]STUNT: Pursing your lips, you cross the room to take a second look into the corridor outside, then come back into the room, stomping on the floor repeatedly. "Wooden floorboards, here and in the corridor. Wooden doorframe. Wooden doors too." you say to yourself. Ash makes an unladylike grunt of realization, but Pauline and Abby both look visibly confused. "Enough power to give people full body burns through their clothes" you continue, addressing the group "is going to be enough power to set that entire corridor on fire, and trap the intruder AND occupant in a burning building." At their dawning looks of comprehension, you continue. "There's other civilians living here. Children too. Collateral damage." You see Beckitt flinch at the term, and file away that datum for later. "My opinion" you stress the word "is we go with the curse option. More precise. Also less likely to bring the police looking for who set off the bomb."
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X] Occult and Leadership (if appropriate) excellencies
    -[X] Upend a bottle of water onto your head to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
    -[X] Use tool transcending constructs (ideally limited to handheld ones) to prepare the physical anchors for the wards.
    -[X] Call Lydia and check when she's going to arrive. Ask others to wait for her, she could probably aid at least somewhat. Use the spare time to prepare the ritual site.
    -[X] Make it clear that, if possible, you'll be helping with both rituals, you are just starting with the curse one.
    -[X] STUNT: "... Ok, we'll wait for you to arrive before starting. Thanks, bye!" you close your phone, having finished talking to Lydia. In your hands, still wet from the bottle of water you upended on your head, brushes and other painting tools manifest, as, guided by your power, you draw symbols on the floor to make a ritual circle, all the while taking into account the input from Hellen and others, so it works best with how they do magic.
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X]Occult Excellency
    -[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
    -[X] If possible anoint yourself in oil in a ritual fashion to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
 
We're well into diminishing returns by the time you have already hit twice the legendary threshold.
I am strongly against piling up successes for heck of it in this situation.
The juice is not worth the squeeze.
This is entirely your assumption not supported by anything at all.

-We didnt have Boiling Sea Mastery during the fight with the Reds.
We certainly didnt use any magic there eitner. No evocation. No thaumaturgy. No summoning.
Just the sword and flight.
We summoned the sword, or so it would have looked. We had our Anima going strong. We flew. All those are magic. An outside observer can't distinguish between "this is an exalted charm" and "this is an exalt manipulating essence to use magic". Both are essence manipulation.
 
While in agreement that absolute maximum super sux here isn't really necessary, "sux softcap at 10/softcap at all" or other such stuff really is entirely untested theory.

It makes sense from a certain angle, doesn't from another - but we don't actually know, either way.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 27, 2022 at 10:47 AM, finished with 128 posts and 18 votes.

  • [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X]Call Lydia since she's running late, and get an ETA on her arrival
    -[X]Occult Excellency
    -[X]STUNT: Pursing your lips, you cross the room to take a second look into the corridor outside, then come back into the room, stomping on the floor repeatedly. "Wooden floorboards, here and in the corridor. Wooden doorframe. Wooden doors too." you say to yourself. Ash makes an unladylike grunt of realization, but Pauline and Abby both look visibly confused. "Enough power to give people full body burns through their clothes" you continue, addressing the group "is going to be enough power to set that entire corridor on fire, and trap the intruder AND occupant in a burning building." At their dawning looks of comprehension, you continue. "There's other civilians living here. Children too. Collateral damage." You see Beckitt flinch at the term, and file away that datum for later. "My opinion" you stress the word "is we go with the curse option. More precise. Also less likely to bring the police looking for who set off the bomb."
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X] Occult and Leadership (if appropriate) excellencies
    -[X] Upend a bottle of water onto your head to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
    -[X] Use tool transcending constructs (ideally limited to handheld ones) to prepare the physical anchors for the wards.
    -[X] Call Lydia and check when she's going to arrive. Ask others to wait for her, she could probably aid at least somewhat. Use the spare time to prepare the ritual site.
    -[X] Make it clear that, if possible, you'll be helping with both rituals, you are just starting with the curse one.
    -[X] STUNT: "... Ok, we'll wait for you to arrive before starting. Thanks, bye!" you close your phone, having finished talking to Lydia. In your hands, still wet from the bottle of water you upended on your head, brushes and other painting tools manifest, as, guided by your power, you draw symbols on the floor to make a ritual circle, all the while taking into account the input from Hellen and others, so it works best with how they do magic.
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X]Occult Excellency
    -[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
    -[X] If possible anoint yourself in oil in a ritual fashion to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
 
Today I was looking at the world of actually interesting signature charms that aren't "+2 difficulty and 1 bashing damage per minute, save negates". More specifically, Abyssal and Solar signature charms.

Here is excerpt from Abyssal Apocalyptic charm, World-Withering Method. Basic charm simply allows to melt inanimate objects, btw.

World Withering Method said:
...but the Abyssal could remove a lover's tenderness, a singer's harmony, or a cop's authority. She can also erase the pain from a memory, the sensible organization from a bookshelf, the roughness of a poorly-maintained road, or the heat of a hot stove. Only abstractions attached to some distinct local phenomenon may be targeted; the Abyssal can't unmake the progress of time itself, or strike all happiness from the cosmos.

While range/size limitations on the charm prevent a lot of sillier stuff you could think about, this is still an incredibly versatile charm that could be useful in almost every situation imaginable. Remove the ice at the first meeting. Remove hesitation of [Enemy] to do [stupid shit]. Remove distance between objects. Remove impurities from the material. Iron Heart Surge remove negative effects from yourself or allies.

Granted, this is somewhat of an outlier. Average Solaroid Signature charms are still significantly better than Infernal signature charms, tho.
 
We summoned the sword, or so it would have looked. We had our Anima going strong. We flew. All those are magic. An outside observer can't distinguish between "this is an exalted charm" and "this is an exalt manipulating essence to use magic". Both are essence manipulation.
The details are the important part, they define how they can be exploited. Obscuring what exactly we can do and how it can be done is worth the effort.
 
While range/size limitations on the charm prevent a lot of sillier stuff you could think about, this is still an incredibly versatile charm that could be useful in almost every situation imaginable. Remove the ice at the first meeting. Remove hesitation of [Enemy] to do [stupid shit]. Remove distance between objects. Remove impurities from the material. Iron Heart Surge remove negative effects from yourself or allies.

Granted, this is somewhat of an outlier. Average Solaroid Signature charms are still significantly better than Infernal signature charms, tho.
The limits Abyssals have on their actions makes me not envy them in the least.
 
The limits Abyssals have on their actions makes me not envy them in the least.
This is ExWoD, not E2. Nameless Curse is an inconvenience to be mindful of, but not any more than that.

Unlike E2, where Resonance made Abyssals genuinely painful to play as anything but neverborn loyalists, in ExWoD having the temerity to save people is punished by some temporary demerits of mediocre severity, like having nightmares for a couple days, or getting Eerie Presence for a scene.
 
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The details are the important part, they define how they can be exploited. Obscuring what exactly we can do and how it can be done is worth the effort.
Stop. We are discussing the "using bsm will let potentially hostile forces know that being g wet doesn't hinder our magic" point. My argument is that the hostile forces are almost certainly already aware of that, because we already did magic (or what looked like magic to outside observers) while fully submerged in water.
 
It does make maintaining any normal identity in the modern world sort of impossible.
Inconvenient, not impossible. The "cannot use your name, only titles" is by far most problematic trigger condition, but workable regardless, especially with the breadth of an Abyssal charmset.

Worst case scenario, you bite the bullet and eat a demerit for a couple of days, all of which are pretty mild.
 
This is entirely your assumption not supported by anything at all.
Look up the mechanics of how rituals work in World of Darkness Sorcerer my friend.
Any of the source books, whether Revised, M20 or Paths of Power.

We summoned the sword, or so it would have looked. We had our Anima going strong. We flew. All those are magic. An outside observer can't distinguish between "this is an exalted charm" and "this is an exalt manipulating essence to use magic". Both are essence manipulation.
1)We dropped out of the sky with sword out, DPoE active and anima glowing, all ready to party.
I should know, I wrote the stunt. At no point did we activate anything like magic or a supernatural ability in front of them; the closest we came was when we lolnoped the dying sorcerer's death curse.

2) Thats inaccurate. The Dresdenverse is chockfull of entities with supernatural abilities that arent recognized as magic.
From the pixies flying on wings too small for them, to Black Court vampires who can turn into gas or hypnotize you with a look, to Denarians with warforms.

The problem here is that you are suggesting we visibly activate BSM in the process of ritualcasting.
And all that for marginal benefit.

If this was a situation where TLF would not activate, you might have had an argument.
But TLF is confirmed to be running and active in this environment.
This is "risk injury to a star player to run up the score in a match you already won" territory.

While in agreement that absolute maximum super sux here isn't really necessary, "sux softcap at 10/softcap at all" or other such stuff really is entirely untested theory.
It makes sense from a certain angle, doesn't from another - but we don't actually know, either way.
I didnt say softcap though.
I said diminishing returns. If damage is enough to kill a target for example, going superultramax over the top is only going to be of marginal additional benefit, or so it seems to me.

Specifically?

Dresdenverse mechanics are that while some badasses like the Merlin can instacast Wards and have done so onscreen, most people, even Dresden, need rituals. They either put it on the place that needs to be protected, or they anchor a ward to an activateable item, like Dresden did for Molly in Turn Coat.

In WoD Sorcery mechanics, Wards are rituals, and the mechanics for ritual casting is very much like Ex3's Sorcerous Workings.
You get a number of turns in which to make enough rolls to meet a target number of successes. If you meet the number, success. If you dont, failure. If you go over, you get a bonus.

While the QM is unlikely to hew exactly to WoD mechanics, the principle remains the same.
Granted, this is somewhat of an outlier. Average Solaroid Signature charms are still significantly better than Infernal signature charms, tho.
Infernals were an afterthought iirc, which were only added due to popular demand after the initial Solar/Abyssal thing.
It shows.
 
Inconvenient, not impossible. The "cannot use your name, only titles" is by far most problematic trigger condition, but workable regardless, especially with the breadth of an Abyssal charmset.

Worst case scenario, you bite the bullet and eat a demerit for a couple of days, all of which are pretty mild.
Yes after Molly graduates from highschool she could likely find ways to manage that, but getting though highschool with those restrictions would be a total pain. The demerits would never go away and keep stacking.
 
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Yes after Molly graduates from highschool she could likely find ways to manage that, but getting thought highschool with those restrictions would be a total pain. The demerits would never go away and keep stacking.
Yeah, flunking - or GED'ing out of - high school really isn't the end of the world when you have a charm that gives you dots of Background at wish. :V

That said, I was under impression that we discussed Abyssals in general, rather than Abyssal Molly. TBH, Molly is kind of very young for an Exalt.
 
Yeah, flunking - or GED'ing out of - high school really isn't the end of the world when you have a charm that gives you dots of Background at wish. :V

That said, I was under impression that we discussed Abyssals in general, rather than Abyssal Molly. TBH, Molly is kind of very young for an Exalt.
Well as long as no other exalted enter the story we can keep enjoying playing Molly the overpowered rather than Molly the overshadowed.
 
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1)We dropped out of the sky with sword out, DPoE active and anima glowing, all ready to party.
I should know, I wrote the stunt. At no point did we activate anything like magic or a supernatural ability in front of them; the closest we came was when we lolnoped the dying sorcerer's death curse.

2) Thats inaccurate. The Dresdenverse is chockfull of entities with supernatural abilities that arent recognized as magic.
From the pixies flying on wings too small for them, to Black Court vampires who can turn into gas or hypnotize you with a look, to Denarians with warforms.

The problem here is that you are suggesting we visibly activate BSM in the process of ritualcasting.
And all that for marginal benefit.

If this was a situation where TLF would not activate, you might have had an argument.
But TLF is confirmed to be running and active in this environment.
This is "risk injury to a star player to run up the score in a match you already won" territory.
Just the aura running continuously, as well as our flight would count as magic. And, furthermore, even if they didn't, we activated Viridian Legend Exoskeleton while underwater:
Baleful runes burn as easily in water as in air, the rubble of the broken base drawn forth into an armor of ruin sending the enemy recoiling beyond even the compulsions they had been implanted with....
And then we renewed an excellency. All while underwater.

And prior to that, we used shintai, Green Sun Nimbus Flare, Crown of Eyes and Tool Transcending Constructs while knee deep (or at least wet) from the raksha's aquarium blowing open in front of us.
 
Well as long as no other exalted enter the story we can keep enjoying playing Molly the overpowered rather than Molly the overshadowed.
Its been hinted by the QM that there's at least one dormant Sidereal shard in this setting that we can track down, free and recruit.
They have repeated it twice, in June and August.
Take that as you will.

Just the aura running continuously, as well as our flight would count as magic. And, furthermore, even if they didn't, we activated Viridian Legend Exoskeleton while underwater:
And then we renewed an excellency. All while underwater.
And prior to that, we used shintai, Green Sun Nimbus Flare, Crown of Eyes and Tool Transcending constructs while knew deep (or at least wet) from the raksha's aquarium blowing open in front of us.
Like I said, supernatural ability, not magic. Magic here refers to stuff thats related to what wizards do: wielding the fires of creation.

Noone looks askance at the Reds when they go monsterform, or when Blacks turn into gas, or Whites put out a psychic whammy, or Polonessa Lartessa turns into a swarm of mantises, or Nicodemus levitates and flies on wings of shadow.
None of that is magic as defined in the setting. None of that can be prevented by antimagic cuffs or running water.

We bought Boiling Sea Mastery AFTER Cleveland.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 27, 2022 at 10:47 AM, finished with 128 posts and 18 votes.

  • [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X]Call Lydia since she's running late, and get an ETA on her arrival
    -[X]Occult Excellency
    -[X]STUNT: Pursing your lips, you cross the room to take a second look into the corridor outside, then come back into the room, stomping on the floor repeatedly. "Wooden floorboards, here and in the corridor. Wooden doorframe. Wooden doors too." you say to yourself. Ash makes an unladylike grunt of realization, but Pauline and Abby both look visibly confused. "Enough power to give people full body burns through their clothes" you continue, addressing the group "is going to be enough power to set that entire corridor on fire, and trap the intruder AND occupant in a burning building." At their dawning looks of comprehension, you continue. "There's other civilians living here. Children too. Collateral damage." You see Beckitt flinch at the term, and file away that datum for later. "My opinion" you stress the word "is we go with the curse option. More precise. Also less likely to bring the police looking for who set off the bomb."
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X] Occult and Leadership (if appropriate) excellencies
    -[X] Upend a bottle of water onto your head to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
    -[X] Use tool transcending constructs (ideally limited to handheld ones) to prepare the physical anchors for the wards.
    -[X] Call Lydia and check when she's going to arrive. Ask others to wait for her, she could probably aid at least somewhat. Use the spare time to prepare the ritual site.
    -[X] Make it clear that, if possible, you'll be helping with both rituals, you are just starting with the curse one.
    -[X] STUNT: "... Ok, we'll wait for you to arrive before starting. Thanks, bye!" you close your phone, having finished talking to Lydia. In your hands, still wet from the bottle of water you upended on your head, brushes and other painting tools manifest, as, guided by your power, you draw symbols on the floor to make a ritual circle, all the while taking into account the input from Hellen and others, so it works best with how they do magic.
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[X]Occult Excellency
    -[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
    -[X] If possible anoint yourself in oil in a ritual fashion to trigger Boiling Sea Mastery
    [x] The curse, you have a feeling your essence would make a hell of a knot of any enemy's fate
    -[x]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.
 
Arc 4 Post 28: Cooking with Fire
Cooking with Fire

25th of August 2006 A.D.

Pursing your lips, you cross the room to take a second look into the corridor outside, then come back into the room, stomping on the floor repeatedly. "Wooden floorboards, here and in the corridor. Wooden doorframe. Wooden doors too." you say to yourself. Ash makes an unladylike grunt of realization, but Pauline and Abby both look visibly confused. "Enough power to give people full body burns through their clothes" you continue, addressing the group "is going to be enough power to set that entire corridor on fire, and..."

"You can give someone burns without setting them on fire," Helen, damned if you are calling someone who gives you the creeps as bad as her Mrs Becket, cuts off your lecture coldly. "Flesh is not wood."

"And the person who comes in here might be made of green boughs and mistletoe," you counter calmly. "You cannot just assume you will be dealing with the mostly human shaped, or just with the ignorant."

"And how pray might they know?" comes the sharp question.

"Helen!" Abby gasps. "There is no need to insinuate..."

"My apologies for being impolite." It's hard to read her near toneless delivery, but she sounds like she means it. "But there are more important things at stake when dealing with the safety of us all, when dealing with one who burns the nose to catch even a whiff of."

You let the silence hang a moment, the tick of the clock on the mantelpiece eerily loud. "Impurity is not the same thing as evil. It is not even the same thing as being wrong, I could quote scripture about the sorts of people Christ chose to have at his table, but I do not want to make this about faith like it's..." a feather in my cap, you think but do not add aloud, sweaving away from what might seem to be false modesty at the last moment. Instead you decide to let Usum have his say. "There is a purity in hatred, in ruination and in spite of which I want nothing to do. I'm just Molly Carpenter trying to muddle along."

The answer seems to resonate with Pauline and even with Anna enough for the latter to unbend into a smile. "We understand this is difficult for you Molly, we do not choose the talents we have, or the talents that find us."

Helen just nods, somehow you do not think it was a lack of understanding that lead to the lack of trust.

Before things can get any more awkward Clippy goes off, for all the world like a normal phone, It's Lydia, her plan 'not to show off by arriving in a fancy car' had backfired when she had missed the L train and had to catch a cab across town.

"My friend will be here soon," you say stoutly swallowing a smile.

And so she is, looking faintly ruffled in a new white T-shirt and a plain black skirt that almost looks like the kind of thing St Agnes would have made you wear to class. Obviously 'local coven South Shore' isn't among the list of destinations she knows how to deal with and her father was not any great use either.

"Hi... is the dog...uh... there's a German Shepherd down by the curb, is it OK to feed him?"

"You shouldn't feed strange dogs," the words out of Helen's mouth are almost automatic, a weirdly familiar ring to them, but whatever you had heard is gone in an instant.

Lydia insists that she is good with dogs which gets her around to talking dogs breeds with Abby who has strong opinions on the matter, specifically on the habit of modern breeders of promoting dogs with serious health issues as 'cute'. It's probably a good thing she is a seer and not a pyromancer or Country Acres Puppies might go up in smoke one of these days with all the files and none of the dogs inside.

Still the time soon comes to deal with the matter at hand, the ritual.

From your understanding ritual magic is hard enough normally, since it is using the props of a magician as the proverbial metaphysical leaver to move what would otherwise be beyond the caster. Harder still when you mean to place a curse on something since that is basically giving magic a designated way to backlash and screw with you...

Bluntly but not inaccurately put, Gracious Lady of the Vardant Dawn, Usum notes

But that is when the actual cauldron in the Order of the Cauldron comes out, it is a plain cast iron kettle you would not gve a second look if you passed it in a window somewhere or spotted it as a curio in the back of a shop, looking like nothing so much as the sort of pot Gargamel would make his smurf stew. Only as you look more closely you see a pair of letters what might be the last part of a date stamped into the metal SM.. 88.


"Salem Massachusetts 1688, that is when it was forged with with a purpose too," Anna explains. "Not that we can claim an unbroken line going back that far, the Great Depression did more to lose my family's touch of the Mysteries than the Witch Trials, by grandmother didn't know what it was, but I figured it out eventually. Thought I'd put it to better use than moldering in the dark, that can make magic turn sour and dark you know."

Anna goes on to explain that the cauldron creates a sort of anchor point that allows what would otherwise be conflicting energies to find their level allowing the 'spinner' in this case Helen to and off a lot more magic to the 'cutter', the person turning the stream of power into magic manifest.

Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble, the lines from Macbeth rise inescapably to the forefront of your mind as salt water and hearth ash, bull thistle and dandelion seeds are added to the pot each with a turn of the stirring paddle.

How much of your Essence do you attempt to invest in the task?

[] Just 1 Essence, you do not want to mingle too many sorts of eldritch power in this, old Cauldron or no
-[] Write in stunt

[] 1 Essence from you and 1 from Lydia, that way you can both contribute
-[] Write in stunt

[] 2 Essence from you and one fron Lydia, that is... proportional and if you time it right three is one of the numbers of great significance
-[] Write in stunt

[] Write in


OOC: The pot is in fact decently enchanted, 'subtly magical talisman' level of enchantment, but nothing crazy.
 
-[]Stunt: Drawing on your knowledge of Kakuri the Night Realm you notice a few improvements to the bad luck charm. Using your essanse you light a cold fire under the caldron. That should brew up some trouble. Not just giving bad luck, but luck with malice that makes everything feel hopeless and spiteful. Where all the world seems turned against you because it is. Every paper cuts, every tile edge stubs a toe, every drop of water causes a slip and the night does not hide them only blinds them.

Adapted the stunt a bit to fit in the caldron.
 
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Like I said, supernatural ability, not magic. Magic here refers to stuff thats related to what wizards do: wielding the fires of creation.

Noone looks askance at the Reds when they go monsterform, or when Blacks turn into gas, or Whites put out a psychic whammy, or Polonessa Lartessa turns into a swarm of mantises, or Nicodemus levitates and flies on wings of shadow.
None of that is magic as defined in the setting. None of that can be prevented by antimagic cuffs or running water.
Nothing we do is magic then. Because we are manipulating essence. We are never using mana, we always manipulate essence. And it was demonstrated already that being wet, pr submerged in water, doesn't stop us from manipulating essence to create supernatural effects, passive or active, focused on us or others.
 
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