Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Simple, Kemmler is not an easy target.
The word you are looking for is blackmail.
The US justice system does the same thing to get people to testify.

By Kemmler being very powerful and dangerous to approach and he got more so as he aged. Just because someone managed to get the drop on him once requiring a bribe to go away does not mean he could do so again, but also...Remember why Arawn is so worried about the Heirs? It's because they know things about his condition and how to exploit it, Kammler himself would likely have known even more.
Noted.

The best deal for everyone save Mab is no deal at all. That's what we should be aiming for.
Thats insane.

Holding the life of a relative hostage to control someone is still slavery. Particularly when it is followed by magical mind control and them literally surrendering their free will, which is what taking up a mantle like this entails for Lydia , as I believe she'd have to choose her non-mortal side.
1)Thats false.
Mab does not do magical mind control, and has no use for agents without free will.
If any of this statement was true, Arawn would not have been able to accept a bribe from Kemmler, and we would not be here.

2)This is also false, or at the very least relies on an interpretation that was disproven ten books ago.
Fae work within limits. They cant lie, and must obey some rules. They arent lacking free will.
See: Winter Lady Molly Carpenter, Summer Lady Lily, Kris Kringle.

I really don't understand how you can keep denying this.
If someone held a gun to my father's head and told me to sign a contract or he'd die, would I be obligated to that contract too?
Would that just be pressured recruitment?

Being forced to work for someone through threats of violence against your family is not normal, it's blackmail or slavery.
If subject A's father is guilty of a capital crime, and the legal system offers subject A a deal to save him, is it blackmail?
Because the Feds do this IRL with prison sentences and charges.

Mab wouldnt be able to personally touch him in the absence of her Knight if he wasnt of Winter or connected with Winter.
But dude screwed her.
She has a legal claim.
 
It's not compulsion in the magical sense, to be sure.
Honestly? I'm operating under the assumption that Mab will get either Arawn or Lydia sooner or later. This way at least Lydia will have support, and aid, in laying out the terms of such a contract, wherein she can (with our support) change certain terms to her liking, as well as getting rid of the more problematic clauses, rather than being coerced into a more exploitative deal later, without any sort of support network.
Ideally, I would have Molly, Gard, Harry, and Michael all working with Lydia to help her to hash out more advantageous terms with Mab. A Knight of the Cross, a Valkyrie, possibly Harry Dresden if Mab permits him to, and a baby Exalt sitting on the other side of the metaphorical table with Lydia should hopefully give her more leverage to work with than what she would have alone.
I really don't understand how you can keep denying this.

If someone held a gun to my father's head and told me to sign a contract or he'd die, would I be obligated to that contract too?
Would that just be pressured recruitment?

Being forced to work for someone through threats of violence against your family isnot normal, it's blackmail or slavery.
My thought is that, independent of what we do, she's likely to run into this situation sooner or later. This way, at least, she has a little more leeway to set the terms, particularly if we can get Michael here.
Also, I'm just really leery of trying to knock someone unconscious like that, particularly with our newfound strength. If we fuck up, we can't really fix it at this juncture.
 
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1) So? Matthews is a specialist binder in a prepared location, powered up by Corpsetaker.

2) We can see that he's slipped it by the way he's not bound and is chasing the Corpsetaker and saving Harry's life. We can also be confident that he won't be bound again as Matthews is no longer possessed and is running away.

3) It also doesn't matter, as there are other ways out. We don't need Harry for this.

4) Not relevant
1)Mathews was here for the Black Feast sacrifice.
He isnt relevant in a combat scenario, and there is no indication that Corpsie needs him for it.

2)Dude is still confused, and we have outright WoG stating that the situation is still too confused for Molly to figure what happened.

3)Not actually true.
We absolutely do need Harry for this.
Amd I do not relish the idea of trying to carry or support a six foot nine, two hundred pounds plus white male out of here.

4)Yes relevant.
You want to leave the museum past the gaggle of Daedalus group agents on the premises, VERY relevant.
1) We don't know if he went to Mab. We also don't know if Summer could offer him a mantle. Death is much more in theme for Winter than it is for summer. And the other pantheons he'd be in contact with were also all being screwed by the rise of Christianity at the same time. If Odin, previous guardian of the Outer Gates needed to take a mantle from Mab, I don't see why Arawn would have been better off.

2) If I hold a person's family hostage and then say I'll kill said family if they don't do what I tell them forever, that's slavery. No ifs, no buts. Slavery.

3) He may have not been confident of defeating Kemmler (but Kemmler wasn't certain of defeating him), so we could well have ended up with a just as bloody or worse WW1 and WW2 with a Kemmler that was just as dangerous but no Arawn squishing lesser necromancers.
1)We know he went to Mab because Bob said so.

2)He brought his Mantle with him.

3)Summer was there. The Twyleth Teg are still there. So are the svartalfar. Even the Fomor.
We know of multiple Asian supernatural entities around just fine, like Raksha and Naga.

4)Death doesnt suit summer?
Mother Summer literally has jars full of plagues lining the walls of her cottage.
Summer isnt always nice. The Erlking is Summer King for a reason.

5)Odin didnt need to take a Mantle from Mab.
They're associated, not truly subordinate. Mab doesnt hand out the King Mantle anymore than Titania does.

5)If a random citizen does it, its murder.
If a legally empowered judge offers commutation of a sentence in exchange for someone else's cooperation, its a plea bargain or a settlement of some sprt.

Again, this was shit Arawn would have known before he swore fealty, and certainly before he went rogue.
 
The US justice system having problems is nothing new, but not the topic of this thread.
Mab has no claim on Lydia, yet will try to get her hooks into her.I refuse.
I don't care how much you try to justify it.
Mab is not trying to compel her.
Its worth remembering that even when she held Dresden's debts, she offered to let him buy his way out.
And she never forced him to take a job. She needs willing motivated agents, not robots.

She's Mab. She's inhumanly patient.

I would rather Lydia gets to make her own choices.
I'd be willing to bargain with Mab for it
But Im not willing to burn our other friends for it.

And the US justice system is an abomination when it comes to getting actual justice so what's your point?
Im reasonably sure this is a practice not just in the US.
Canada, Australia, UK, Pakistan, China, India....
 
And yet, canon example of an ExvsWoD abyssal is Skull Girl, who is working together with a Solar under direction of a Sidereal, on the side of angels as it was. And let's see who gets to be an abyssal:
Soldier is a perfectly respectable profession, if they are a part of a respectable army.

Revolutions happen. A rebel against an oppressive regime might well be someone fighting for the better world.

Yeah, ok. Cole is definitely going to become one if they are released before he's been dealt with. That's an issue. But in general, see "profilers of serial killers". "Those who do not fear what they find in the dark" - I am betting at least some venatori are going to exalt.

Yeah, ok, I'll give you this one.

This one redeems the previous one. It's basically a positive archetype.
And then there's Unconquered Hero's Faith.

What I am saying is that if we make preparations. If we, and ideally no one else know that it's going to be opened, and are positioned to take advantage of it, then opening the Black Vault is going to be a net positive. And even if we are not, then Solars, Lunars and Sidereals working with the help of Heavens should bring more good to the world than Abyssals and Infernals evil.
This is why I called them the exalted version of Drizzt; the nihilistic evil origin seems to mostly get used as a backdrop for tragic redemption stories. The thing is, for all those special twice over exalted's redemption background to make sense they can't all be doing it.

The Abyssal exaltations are looking for hosts who meet the criteria of the first passage introducing them. Circumstances can conspire to push someone on a path to redemption, but most of them won't.

You're not wrong about how they have a route to becoming better, but you're ignoring that they're still actively cursed even if the never born aren't calling the shots any more.
the nameless Curse
Acceptance of the Black Exaltation afflicts the Abyssal with certain expectations. Though few Abys- sals have even begun to understand how their curse works, or why, their Essence is tied to those grotesque and chthonic spectres known as the Neverborn. Acting against the will of the Neverborn disturbs the dreams of these ancient, timeless horrors, and those primor- dial nightmares are visited upon the wayward Abyssal.
These are the laws that the Black Exaltation de- mands an Abyssal follow:
• She must not say or acknowledge her lost name, or any name she truly considers to be her own. Each time she does so, she suffers the curse of the Neverborn.
• Shemustnotincreasethenumbersoftheliving.Sir- ing or bearing a child is forbidden, and the moment of the child's birth brings with it the curse of the Neverborn.
• Shemustnotsavethelivesoftheliving.Anyscenein which she does so provokes the curse of the Neverborn.
The curse of the Neverborn expresses itself as one of a variety of temporary punishments, chosen by the Story- teller. The curse is generally transitory, lasting for anywhere from a scene to a few days. Common examples include:
• The next time the Abyssal manifests her fangs, she is unable to banish them for three days.
• She gains the Nightmares flaw (see V20, page 485) for a week.
• She has great difficulty approaching some com- mon stimulus such as the scent of garlic or roses, holy ground, holy symbols, or the sound of churchbells, and must roll Willpower (difficulty 7) to remain close to the cursed object or sensation.
• She gains the Beacon of the Unholy flaw (see V20, page 494).
• The Abyssal gains the Eerie Presence flaw (see V20, page 495).
• The character suffers the Lord of the Flies flaw (see V20, page 495).

• The Abyssal finds bright lights and direct sunlight painful, increasing the difficulty of all actions by 1 while in such circumstances.
• A terrible lethargy falls upon the Abyssal when the sun rises, compelling her to sleep from sunrise until sunset. If she remains awake and active anyway, she suffers a –2 penalty to all actions.
• Spectres detect the anger of the Neverborn echoing through their hive-mind and become hostile to the Abyssal.

Even their high power charms explicitly for resisting their themes have consequences built into them. Take for example:

unConquered hero's Faith (•••••)
In another time, in another place, the Abyssal was something more than this. Something bright. Some- thing glorious. Something that brought hope rather than despair. Striking a fist against the black ice that binds her heart, she creates a crack for the light to shine through.
System: The Abyssal may force her Shadows and her need for the trappings of the grave to disappear for 24 hours. Doing so is considered a violation of the laws of the Nameless Curse, but her punishment for this trans- gression won't begin until the 24 hours have elapsed.
The Abyssal may also give up one of her Charms for a scene, replacing it with a Solar Charm of the same rating from the equivalent Solar Caste (such as forsaking Corpse Graft Technique in order to gain Wholeness-Restoring Meditation; if she knows Birth of Sanity's Sorrow, she may exchange it for Final Ray of Light). This also counts as a violation of the Name- less Curse, and an especially severe one at that.
Finally, having rejected the blessings and brotherhood of the void, the Abyssal loses her Spectre Notoriety Background.
If the Abyssal learns Unconquered He- ro's Faith, she may never learn Immortal Malevolence Enslavement.

These aren't equal paths for them; the people chosen, the perspectives shown and powers given to them create significant pressure to act like what the neverborn wanted them to be.

There are something like 150 of these guys right? Most of them will go bad, and likely as not side with the outsiders when they learn of them. At the very least they'll both be attacking the same enemy.

I have serious doubts that dumping more uncoordinated super humans all working at cross purposes to the situation would actually make it better. The great curse might be gone, but the exalted didn't really need it to be utter bastards when it suited them.

The return will be worse, because now there's no unified structure for them to exalt into in order to keep things organized. Just the introduction of hundreds of demigods with different agendas to fill.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Oct 6, 2022 at 6:25 PM, finished with 112 posts and 22 votes.

  • [X] Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    [X] Focus on finishing off that sub
    [X] Write in
    - [X] Use the Crown of Eyes to learn the Capricorpus' mortal name, and whatever else it can tell you besides.
    - [X] Then Knock Harry out, he cannot call Mab if he's unconscious and she cannot even blame him for planning it if you do it now
    -[X][Stunt] "And so he found the Ankou and will call the Cold Queen as soon as he is able," your voice calls out coldly, "fulfilling the letters of his bargain."
    [X] Rather than actually knocking (which could be dangerous), forcefully shut his mouth so he could not suumon Mab
    -[X] Afterwards, call Michael. If Mab wants to try and make a deal with Lydia, we can't stop her forever, but I'll be damned before I let her go into this alone.
 
[X] Focus on finishing off that sub

Combat situation, now is not the time for trying to bash Harry's skull in gently. Which for the record doesn't work; barring fantasy nonsense hitting someone hard enough to knock them unconscious for any serious length of time always has consequences. Without confirmation that we're dealing with rules that allow for it I'm reluctant to apply percussive maintenance to anyone we like.

On the Mab stuff; regardless of our individual opinions of her she's dangerous and invested. A compromise is the best option because it stops this from devolving further.
 
Um, are we really okay with letting Harry eat the consequences of breaking his vow? Because it sure looks like he is planning to.

As for people worried about the fact that we are still in combat, we currently have a crazy fast movement speed and can dash in, deal with the sub, and then dash back to deal with Harry. A "Lets do both" vote would be totally valid.
 
I mean, worst comes to worst…
If we were to say Mab's name thrice… what would happen? Mostly just curious for now.
 
Um, are we really okay with letting Harry eat the consequences of breaking his vow? Because it sure looks like he is planning to.

As for people worried about the fact that we are still in combat, we currently have a crazy fast movement speed and can dash in, deal with the sub, and then dash back to deal with Harry. A "Lets do both" vote would be totally valid.
This whole situation is volatile, we don't know that it will be safe the moment the sun is down. Arawn could himself be a problem to name one example. So could a Daedalus raid.

As to eating the consequences of breaking his oath; that only matters if this goes on without resolution. If we immediately handle the situation in a way that gets her what she wants bending the situation a little doesn't matter that much.

And again, people don't have an off button. As far as I understand it the only way to drop him would be to fill his health track to incapacitated with bashing damage. It's not fast enough to save him from Mab doing an audit even if we were willing to take the chance of doing lasting harm.
 
Um, are we really okay with letting Harry eat the consequences of breaking his vow? Because it sure looks like he is planning to.

As for people worried about the fact that we are still in combat, we currently have a crazy fast movement speed and can dash in, deal with the sub, and then dash back to deal with Harry. A "Lets do both" vote would be totally valid.
And Capricorpus or Evil Bob can possess Harry and use their incredible knowledge of magic combined with Harry's incredible magical power to do something awful while we're still moving to deal with the u-boat.

Even being in control of Harry for 2 seconds would be enough for one of them to nuke this entire area. Neither of them could use a Death Curse through Harry, but with no regard for his safety or health, they could do the next best thing.
 
And Capricorpus or Evil Bob can possess Harry and use their incredible knowledge of magic combined with Harry's incredible magical power to do something awful while we're still moving to deal with the u-boat.

Even being in control of Harry for 2 seconds would be enough for one of them to nuke this entire area. Neither of them could use a Death Curse through Harry, but with no regard for his safety or health, they could do the next best thing.
To do that they have to manage all of
1) leave the sub in case of Bob
2) get past Molly, Lydia, Gard and Ankou
3) beat Lash, she hates interlopers in Harry's head
4) resist being driven out by Gard or Lydia

I doubt Bob would even give up the sub and Capricorpus is busy running away from the Ankou
 
[X] Focus on finishing off that sub

This is why I called them the exalted version of Drizzt; the nihilistic evil origin seems to mostly get used as a backdrop for tragic redemption stories. The thing is, for all those special twice over exalted's redemption background to make sense they can't all be doing it.

The Abyssal exaltations are looking for hosts who meet the criteria of the first passage introducing them. Circumstances can conspire to push someone on a path to redemption, but most of them won't.

You're not wrong about how they have a route to becoming better, but you're ignoring that they're still actively cursed even if the never born aren't calling the shots any more.


Even their high power charms explicitly for resisting their themes have consequences built into them. Take for example:



These aren't equal paths for them; the people chosen, the perspectives shown and powers given to them create significant pressure to act like what the neverborn wanted them to be.

There are something like 150 of these guys right? Most of them will go bad, and likely as not side with the outsiders when they learn of them. At the very least they'll both be attacking the same enemy.

I have serious doubts that dumping more uncoordinated super humans all working at cross purposes to the situation would actually make it better. The great curse might be gone, but the exalted didn't really need it to be utter bastards when it suited them.

The return will be worse, because now there's no unified structure for them to exalt into in order to keep things organized. Just the introduction of hundreds of demigods with different agendas to fill.
Suffice to say, I strongly disagree. 150 abyssals do not outweigh an equal number of solars, twice as many lunars and sidereals. And, again, abyssal exaltations are selected from among the fallen. They do not select "evil people", just as solar ones do not select "good people".

And as to structure... I am willing to bet that a lot of them will either have an angel visiting them, or a knight running into them or something like that pretty quickly. Especially if we make preparations before opening the vault.

I don't think I'll be able to convince you, but in my opinion, empowering humanity, unleashing the exaltations and ushering in a new age when humans can meaningfully push against fae, demons and outsiders alike is a good thing.
 
This whole situation is volatile, we don't know that it will be safe the moment the sun is down. Arawn could himself be a problem to name one example. So could a Daedalus raid.

As to eating the consequences of breaking his oath; that only matters if this goes on without resolution. If we immediately handle the situation in a way that gets her what she wants bending the situation a little doesn't matter that much.

And again, people don't have an off button. As far as I understand it the only way to drop him would be to fill his health track to incapacitated with bashing damage. It's not fast enough to save him from Mab doing an audit even if we were willing to take the chance of doing lasting harm.
Right now Harry either immediately tries to summon Mab, or he is in violation of his oath. I am absolutely not willing to just hope Mab will "Let it slide".
"Handling the situation in a way that gets her what she wants" is a total non starter for me too. I'm willing, even interested in trying to turn events so that Mab gets some of what she wants, but not all of it. Lydia has already expressed her opinion on that, and if we ever claimed to be her friend we should not betray her on this.
"So just to be clear you do not want the mantle?" Gard asks, rubbing her temples.

"I don't want my dad to die and to have to bargain for his life with the queen of the wicked fairies!" For the first time since you got here Lydia raises her voice.

Risks and complications from knocking someone out are things mortals may have to deal with, but we are an exalt. It we want to cleanly knock him out with a tap to the head, we should absolutely be able to do so. See: 5 Melee skill, a Melee excellency and inhuman dexterity. It's never been something we have had to deal with before, suddenly worrying about it now makes no sense.

And Capricorpus or Evil Bob can possess Harry and use their incredible knowledge of magic combined with Harry's incredible magical power to do something awful while we're still moving to deal with the u-boat.

Even being in control of Harry for 2 seconds would be enough for one of them to nuke this entire area. Neither of them could use a Death Curse through Harry, but with no regard for his safety or health, they could do the next best thing.
According to this it still won't be easy:
I'll allow the ducktape, trouble is as long as he has his hands free Mab would expect him to use all means at his disposal to get his mouth free and do the summoning. Realistically he would probably just play along and get in trouble.

Also I should clarify, just because Harry would be more vulnerable to possession unconscious does not mean he would he that vulnerable in absolute terms. Lash is still in there and unlikely to take kindly to Capricorpus muscling in on her turf.
And that's ignoring the hostile spirits being able to get to Harry anyway, what with all the high level supernatural combatants here.
 
And Capricorpus or Evil Bob can possess Harry and use their incredible knowledge of magic combined with Harry's incredible magical power to do something awful while we're still moving to deal with the u-boat.

Even being in control of Harry for 2 seconds would be enough for one of them to nuke this entire area. Neither of them could use a Death Curse through Harry, but with no regard for his safety or health, they could do the next best thing.
In addition to this, I think it's worth being more worried about Arawn's whole deal.

We have no reason to believe he's benevolent. For all we know his personal crusade against necromancers was something he was doing to accrue power through killing them and stealing their knowledge or something similar.

It's entirely possible that the reason he had a daughter in the first place was to wait for her to spark and then offload the mantle on her so he could escape.

Another option would be that he's not planning to do anything bad to his kid, but he still prioritizes their interests over us. For example, he could try to take Dresden as a hostage to negotiate with Mab over. She doesn't have a complete claim on him yet, but it wouldn't be hard to arrange a situation where Mab can legitimately claim that Dresden owes her his life. Which is exactly the tier of enticement Arawn needs to get her off his back.

We have no more evidence for or against either of these theories than we do for the idea that he'll be benevolent and grateful.
[X] Focus on finishing off that sub


Suffice to say, I strongly disagree. 150 abyssals do not outweigh an equal number of solars, twice as many lunars and sidereals. And, again, abyssal exaltations are selected from among the fallen. They do not select "evil people", just as solar ones do not select "good people".

And as to structure... I am willing to bet that a lot of them will either have an angel visiting them, or a knight running into them or something like that pretty quickly. Especially if we make preparations before opening the vault.

I don't think I'll be able to convince you, but in my opinion, empowering humanity, unleashing the exaltations and ushering in a new age when humans can meaningfully push against fae, demons and outsiders alike is a good thing.
You have a lot more faith in Solars than I do. As far as I can see the exaltations support being Classical Greek heroes, not moral paragons. Releasing the celestial exalted is basically the same as giving hundreds of random people fantastic cosmic power and hoping god can sort it out.


That's the difference in our perspective; I don't see the Solars as inherently on humanity's side just because they're human.

Empowering humanity would be good, empowering god-kings who'll break the world fighting over it wouldn't be.

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Right now Harry either immediately tries to summon Mab, or he is in violation of his oath. I am absolutely not willing to just hope Mab will "Let it slide".
"Handling the situation in a way that gets her what she wants" is a total non starter for me too. I'm willing, even interested in trying to turn events so that Mab gets some of what she wants, but not all of it. Lydia has already expressed her opinion on that, and if we ever claimed to be her friend we should not betray her on this.
His oath specified that he'd summon her as soon as reasonably possible and not as soon as he physically could. He negotiated that term so that he wouldn't need to arrange a summoning in the middle of a fight, which we still are. There's wiggle room in what counts as reasonable.

Getting what she wants was poor phrasing on my part. I'm not interested in giving her everything she's looking for on a silver platter. I'm thinking of the core part, which is the return of the mantle.

Mab simply won't abandon seeking it out; finding a reasonable way to return it where no one, with the possible exception of Arawn, gets hurt is the best option available for all of long term. Best case overall is giving it to her taped to the back of some random Ankou she summons up.
 
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Arawn gave his oath freely to a known quantity, then broke them with the help of one of the people he was supposed to hunt.
That is actually arguable. He was clearly under long term duress when giving his oaths.
3)He could have passed the Mantle down to another Ankou.
We don't know that and, from what I understand, that's not how mantles normally work. Otherwise Molly wouldn't be a winter lady in canon.
2)Its not slavery, its recruitment. Mab is definitely applying pressure, but she isnt compelling obedience.
No, it's very much selling yourself into slavery. Like being a janissary.
1)Thats false.
Mab does not do magical mind control, and has no use for agents without free will.
If any of this statement was true, Arawn would not have been able to accept a bribe from Kemmler, and we would not be here.
She does regular "mental reconditioning through prolonged torture", however. See Leanansidhe. And yes, extenuating circumstances, but point is, Mab is absolutely capable of brainwashing people through various means, like extended psychological and physical torture, gaslighting, threats, inducing Stockholm syndrome, etc. One also has to remember that the mantle themselves have mind-affecting effects on their users, and Lydia is a teenager. And Mab is explicitely interested in "molding her to her whims".

Look, I understand that you think Mab is necessary, and that she's a hard woman making hard decisions in a hard situation, and that ultimately she's on the side of good. I can even agree to some of it. But from everything we were told IC and OOC, Mab is very much interested in making Lydia's life miserable at least for a long time, if not forever, and the condition for stopping the misery is "being Mab's perfectly loyal servant forever". That's slavery. Mab has reasons extending well beyond Arawn and Lydia to want to make Lydia her loyal slave after publicly and visibly making her suffer. But she's still going to make her suffer.

You have a lot more faith in Solars than I do. As far as I can see the exaltations support being Classical Greek heroes, not moral paragons. Releasing the celestial exalted is basically the same as giving hundreds of random people fantastic cosmic power and hoping god can sort it out.


That's the difference in our perspective; I don't see the Solars as inherently on humanity's side just because they're human.

Empowering humanity would be good, empowering god-kings who'll break the world fighting over it wouldn't be.
As I said, I disagree. Solar exaltations go to heroes, yes. Heroes who might have tempers, who might become tyrants, but heroes who are slayers of monsters. Who will push back against the darkness, who will slay monsters and do heroic deeds. Solars are inherently human, and they are on their own side. So, yes, they are, at least in part, on humanity's side.

Also, not a hundred random people. A hundred best and brightest random people.

Also, it's notable that canon ExvsWod solar literally had "find others, save the world" told to him by the long-past spirit of Sol Invictus as he exalted, and is following that motivation. Together with his Sidereal guide to boot.
 
Okay, I wasn't quite sure when the christianisation of Ireland forced him into a deal, I thought it might have been earlier.



He could?
I mean, without fading from the world like an almost fully forgotten god?

That mantle was keeping him alive until Kemmler showed him an alternative.
Gods don't just disappear the fade prevents them from connecting to the mortal world easily. Given he might not count as a god at that point.
 
As I said, I disagree. Solar exaltations go to heroes, yes. Heroes who might have tempers, who might become tyrants, but heroes who are slayers of monsters. Who will push back against the darkness, who will slay monsters and do heroic deeds. Solars are inherently human, and they are on their own side. So, yes, they are, at least in part, on humanity's side.
Again, classical heroes not comic book ones. They're heroic in that they're larger than life and incredibly strong; that's the start and end of what it means about them.

With no unified structure or belief system people are going to exalt and then continue what they were doing before, but with greater vigor. Israeli v. Palestinian day castes would be loads of fun for everyone I'm sure, just to name one situation where anyone getting divine powers would probably make things worse.

Your definition of on humanity's side makes no sense to me. Being human and benefiting themselves doesn't mean they're benefiting humanity as a whole in any real way. They don't need to fully dedicate their lives to other people's interests to be acceptable, but carving out a kingdom for themselves isn't inherently beneficial to anyone else.
 
Again, classical heroes not comic book ones. They're heroic in that they're larger than life and incredibly strong; that's the start and end of what it means about them.

With no unified structure or belief system people are going to exalt and then continue what they were doing before, but with greater vigor. Israeli v. Palestinian day castes would be loads of fun for everyone I'm sure, just to name one situation where anyone getting divine powers would probably make things worse.

Your definition of on humanity's side makes no sense to me. Being human and benefiting themselves doesn't mean they're benefiting humanity as a whole in any real way. They don't need to fully dedicate their lives to other people's interests to be acceptable, but carving out a kingdom for themselves isn't inherently beneficial to anyone else.
Classical heroes were still heroes. Larger than life, but not just larger than life. Doing heroic deeds.

Heracles was a hero. He killed his family, raped a lot of women, but he also, and primarily, slew monsters and did heroic deeds, in the sense of doing something worth remembering and being inspired by.

Also remember, exalts are selected from those who have being touched by a supernatural world and are aware of it in at least some sense. That would play a role in their motivations.
 
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