Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I wonder whats running Fate then. Since the Loom of Fate and Fate isnt just destiny but actual physics and causality.

Also, it would protect us from divination and time seeing I think, if we are Outside Fate, which is still good.

The only non Fate divination I remember is if Sachaverell woke up, but thats also kind of Fate-like, because it sounds like Samsara which is also a Maidens thing.

There were so many heated arguments about that.

This is based on memory, so there might be mistakes. In short, there's Fate, which is something that gods and Exalts can run. Indeed, it's something that gods and Exalts are supposed to run because it isn't a perfect, inviolate system that can continue running on its own forever and ever. Under normal circumstances, being detached from Fate isn't a good thing because, well, there's a non-zero chance of someone taking a step and turning into a shoal of chocolate fish swimming their way into the heavens. Something, something, Creation was built in a sea of infinite possibilities (which was a pain in the rear for the Primordials) that humans were never meant to operate in.

In other words, Fate isn't just the course of events that are supposed to be, it's also the rule set by which Creation operates. It being less than perfect and inviolate means that it's very much possible to go against what has been decreed by gods and Exalts without becoming detached from it, though there's a chance of those gods and Exalts becoming pissy about that matter. On top of this, Exalts are capable of carrying their own rule sets with them and enforcing those on others because that's the basic prerequisite for the Primordials. GSPs are just a bit more literal than the others, which are still ultimately products of Primordial ingenuity in various ways.

The thing that got people heated was the idea of a sort of super-Fate called Samsara that couldn't be challenged. The Five Maidens had mechanics that obligated them to follow anything that it said if they peeked into it. Similarly, there was a fear that if Sacheverell ever woke up, his waking would lock everyone and everything into following Samsara with no hope of changing that.

Speaking personally, I never saw the issue with Samsara because I don't think it removes free will any more than any of the normal things that can impair it in real life. As far as I'm concerned, it's just the notion that the future already exists, which doesn't actually say anything about how people made the decisions that lead to the future.

Besides these, alternate timelines seem to exist in Exalted as well. The Dowager dug the Great Contagion out of an alternate timeline. Similarly, Oramus seemed to have been capable of playing around with the concept. In 3rd Edition, the existence of Getimians suggests the existence of alternate timelines, which is apparently quite disconcerting for quite a few entities in Heaven.
 
Besides these, alternate timelines seem to exist in Exalted as well. The Dowager dug the Great Contagion out of an alternate timeline. Similarly, Oramus seemed to have been capable of playing around with the concept. In 3rd Edition, the existence of Getimians suggests the existence of alternate timelines, which is apparently quite disconcerting for quite a few entities in Heaven.
Even in the 2e version, there was the Time of Cascading Years where every Exalt (or person?) as thrown into their own personal timelines that varied wildly, lasting a few years or thousands, and when everything was recalibrated to normal time travel was super banned forever.

And I guess Shards are a thing? It may just be meta.

But yeah. Samsara is interesting. I imagine the only thing that could stop it is dissolving Creation and killing linear time so you can't foresee it.

Edit:

this is the most consolidated timeline I can find offhand thats cited.
 
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Become exalted. Inherit vast infernal lore. Become heir to the broken and forgotten creators of the world. Slay alien eldritch beings.
last i checked, the angels and the white God are the creators of the world, at least in dresden files and the abrahamic God is hardly forgotten.

Then again, i have no idea how that is handled here or if some exalt lore supercedes that
 
Even in the 2e version, there was the Time of Cascading Years where every Exalt (or person?) as thrown into their own personal timelines that varied wildly, lasting a few years or thousands, and when everything was recalibrated to normal time travel was super banned forever.

And I guess Shards are a thing? It may just be meta.

But yeah. Samsara is interesting. I imagine the only thing that could stop it is dissolving Creation and killing linear time so you can't foresee it.

Edit:

this is the most consolidated timeline I can find offhand thats cited.

By default, Creation ensures that time flows one way. Furthermore, it enforces this beyond its boundaries because there's nothing more iconic than Primordials screwing over the denizens of the Wyld. Unfortunately, Creation can get kind of creaky, particularly when people are screwing with its systems more than usual.

If you go by Shards, that also says some interesting things about what pre-Primordial War Creation looked like.
 
If you go by Shards, that also says some interesting things about what pre-Primordial War Creation looked like.
I have seen some arguments that attribute some differences to the Three Spheres Cataclysm where Swlihn dunks three of her orbs and destroys 90% of all "important things", whatever those are. Cosmology? Concepts? Just throwing land back into the Wyld?
 
last i checked, the angels and the white God are the creators of the world, at least in dresden files and the abrahamic God is hardly forgotten.

Then again, i have no idea how that is handled here or if some exalt lore supercedes that

It was never canonically confirmed that the White God made the world in Dresden Files. Butcher was asked that repeatedly and he refused to answer one way or the other .
 
Even if Molly would make sense of it, it'd be bypassing the whole "Respect Free Will" maxim that Angels work with, causing a Fall-By-Proxy for letting what they Know be released outside of the normal channels. And Any Angel falling is a horrific tragedy.
Hell, for that matter, this could also be them trying to head off an inverse version of that problem: Molly asking something along the lines of "How best can I act in accordance to God's will and plan?"

Amusingly, even before this chapter I was toying with the theoretical (it'd make an unfun story probably) impact of doing something like "If such and such angel could impart one secret or plan of action without worrying about the impact to free will, what would that secret or plan of action be?"
 
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It was never canonically confirmed that the White God made the world in Dresden Files. Butcher was asked that repeatedly and he refused to answer one way or the other .
Iirc, there are strong implications with the angels and the white God being the strongest beings existing in Dresden files not counting the outsider gods and them predating the world.

Doesn't Anduriel/nicodemus in book 15 say something of the sort of him being there and seeing the World being made when he found out about Dresdens soul fire?

Or am i misremembering that?
 
last i checked, the angels and the white God are the creators of the world, at least in dresden files and the abrahamic God is hardly forgotten.

Then again, i have no idea how that is handled here or if some exalt lore supercedes that
There's a few scenarios discussed in ExWOD for how Creation might have ended up as Earth. One is that the cosmos once contained a multitude of different 'layers' until God smashed them all together in His wrath. Another is that human belief determines reality, and so the timeline where the Age of Legends happened became inaccessible as everyone stopped believing in the supernatural. The last is that modern supernatural entities are the fragmented remnants of the Age of Legends, having degenerated over many millennia. In this view, angels and fallen angels claim to have created the world because they're tiny shards of the Primordials, who did create the world.

Of course, there's no indication here that Earth runs on consensus reality, or that angels and fallen angels are Primordial in origin.
 
Iirc, there are strong implications with the angels and the white God being the strongest beings existing in Dresden files not counting the outsider gods and them predating the world.

Doesn't Anduriel/nicodemus in book 15 say something of the sort of him being there and seeing the World being made when he found out about Dresdens soul fire?

Or am i misremembering that?

Maybe, I would have to look, but that would also involve believing Old Nic and his demonic roommate. That is not quite WoG.
 
Maybe, I would have to look, but that would also involve believing Old Nic and his demonic roommate. That is not quite WoG.
Tbf, anduriel was in an incredible rage at seeing Harry having soul fire, i don't think He'd Lied or would have much reason. If i remember correctly. I have read that three years ago so i could just be remembering shit wrongly
Being present at Creation and seeing soulfire used also leaves...a lot of potential wiggle room, even if its true.
Tbf, not much else back then that could have done it.

Of course, df has no primordials or something so that's easily adaptabke to "He saw them do it" in this context
 
Might as well as call it as votes are very onesided. The only reason the vote is not hitting 30+ os due to a spelling error.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jul 20, 2022 at 12:36 PM, finished with 125 posts and 36 votes.
 
Tbf, not much else back then that could have done it.

Of course, df has no primordials or something so that's easily adaptabke to "He saw them do it" in this context
As an example there is no WoG and barely any interaction with other myths or creation myths.

It is theoretically possible that the White God, nordic pantheon, vedic pantheon etc all participated in it, and soulfire is a general technique of that level. And the White God is merely the most powerful (as Theion was amongst Titans)

Is it likely to be true? I don't think so, but thats more due to its using what the author knows, not because it cant be made to make sense.

Three Pure Ones, Amenominakanushi etc can theoretically stand on the same level as the White God/Christian God iirc, in some interpretations.

Its just not used much, not thats impossible.

Angels are pillars of creation. But so are Dragons.

Here, Yomi Wan may play a big role though.

Edit: Maybe "soulfire" is just Essence use here, and souls are the only thing that are undiminished, so its the only thing you can burn for fuel by unraveling it into Essence.
 
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I have seen some arguments that attribute some differences to the Three Spheres Cataclysm where Swlihn dunks three of her orbs and destroys 90% of all "important things", whatever those are. Cosmology? Concepts? Just throwing land back into the Wyld?

No one knows. It's one of those throwaway details that are meant to make the Primordial War seem more interesting while providing Swlihn with a bit of characterization.

But yeah, the general speculation for the cause of the difference between Gunstar Autochthon and the default Exalted setting is that Swlihn detonating three of her spheres at war's end reduced Creation to a small remnant of what it had been. The idea was tossed about even before Shards came out though, presumably because "like our universe" was a pretty natural jump when people tried to envision what pre-Primordial War Creation looked like.

On top of that, it fits with the general idea of big transitional moments in Creation's history causing it to become more and more diminished. The Primordial War. The Usurpation. Even the release of the Solars if you cling to old, outdated canon about Exalted being the mythical predecessor to the World of Darkness because the implication is that the Exalts continued to fight each other until everything came crashing down.
 
Tbf, anduriel was in an incredible rage at seeing Harry having soul fire, i don't think He'd Lied or would have much reason. If i remember correctly. I have read that three years ago so i could just be remembering shit wrongly
Not sure about Anduriel, but in book 10, its thorned namshiel who gets utterly enraged at having soulfire used against him. Him blurting it out is actually what lets harry figure out what he got there.
 
It is theoretically possible that the White God, nordic pantheon, vedic pantheon etc all participated in it, and soulfire is a general technique of that level. And the White God is merely the most powerful (as Theion was amongst Titans)

Is it likely to be true? I don't think so, but thats more due to its using what the author knows, not because it cant be made to make sense.

Three Pure Ones, Amenominakanushi etc can theoretically stand on the same level as the White God/Christian God iirc, in some interpretations.
within the context of dresden files?

No, blatantly absolutely not. Small g faith based dieties can not rival a big G God like the White God, the outsider Gods and possibly maybe Lucifer who don´t rely on faith whatsoever.
Q: The same story seemed to imply that entities could gain or lose power retroactively, in a wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey sort of way. For example, The Almighty is the Creator of the Universe, but He hasn't always been the Creator of the Universe. Is there anything to this assumption, and if so, might we see it explored in greater detail later?
A: You're assigning limits where there aren't any. In the Dresden Files universe, what changes really isn't the actual beings. It's our understanding of who and what they are.
In this Woj, Jim clearly states that being forgotten wouldn´t change the almighty whatsover, just mortal understanding of him would change.
Small g gods like the greek pantheon or Odin lose their powers with less people believing them, but big G "almighty" dieties just flat out do not have that limitation, hence something like Odin or other faitth based dieties can not have created the world (since back then there was no faith to sustain/birth them)
Not sure about Anduriel, but in book 10, its thorned namshiel who gets utterly enraged at having soulfire used against him. Him blurting it out is actually what lets harry figure out what he got there.
ah, it was namshiel? Thanks, as i said, could easily misremember things since it been years since I read the books.

Really, the same reasoning still applies
 
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