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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Valkhir said:
I mean...its not just an Exalted take. Charity and Knight of the Cross for a parent results in religious upbringing, and in the Bible the obedience to God...you know.
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in shitty real life christianity yeah. In the Dresden files this is a wildly bad take. The white god respect the free will of people so much Angel's literally cant do anything to counter human free will.

Which says something, but I can tell that everyone is already really excited about pre stamping loyalty marks into peoples brains so they dont complain or ask why they have to dedicate their lives to our whims :(

Valkhir said:
I don't see it as tyranny because we wouldn't interfere in day to day running or bring them to war but I also have zero problem with tyranny. Why? Because its us, thats it. No higher reason.
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Were absolutely going to make use of them if we vote for a loyal dedicated or fanatical population.

Hell even of we dont it would still be beneficial to engage in diplomacy, trade, or try to recruit people. It should just be their choice.

As for Tyranny not being bad because we do it...

So "fuck you got mine" but applied to human lives?

That's horrifically callous.

Valkhir said:
Also, with what social Charms? Crowned With Fury that...does exactly that? Make it so people can't disobey us or they suffer physical damage and eat WP loss?

Golden Years Tarnished which is even worse?

Edit: Honestly I would like to see that scene. If we reject the right of the creator, which we can absolutely do and is a valid stance, well...it has further implications.
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Verdant empress endowment, false spring beckons, empathy excellency, etiquette excellency...

I am surprised you dont think we have anything to offer people that might be worth serving us for.

If we do pick paradise people might just be willing to fight to try and make our world a better place as well.
 
zxzx24 said:
I am surprised you dont think we have anything to offer people that might be worth serving us for.
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On a society level? Those aren't worth talking about.

If we're talking personal loyalty Verdant Emptiness is good + Exce but thats it.

False Spring requires they be under a curse or some kind of malady and thats ALSO a "serve me or you suffer" type Charm. So if we ask something with the implicit offer that they can reject doing it for us...it would still disable the Charm, because thats how it works.

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zxzx24 said:
If we do pick paradise people might just be willing to fight to try and make our world a better place as well.
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This is getting into two problems. One is that it would be getting Loyal without paying or working for it, and thats bad game design.

Other is...we would still be the Ruler of the Kingdom and would be the only way in if they did leave for some reason. If they have zero loyalty thats not a good sign.

You, yourself, brought up the Exalted and Creation rebelling. With no innate loyalty its ten times as likely.

After all if they want to improve/save this world too, what price is rebellion?

I am taking a more pessimistic probability to illustrate, just as you presuppose that Loyalty as a start must be evil.
 
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zxzx24 said:
in shitty real life christianity yeah. In the Dresden files this is a wildly bad take. The white god respect the free will of people so much Angel's literally cant do anything to counter human free will.

Which says something, but I can tell that everyone is already really excited about pre stamping loyalty marks into peoples brains so they dont complain or ask why they have to dedicate their lives to our whims :(
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Have you considered the retroactive history angle? Like, the way the history and culture develops makes them inclined to let us in the drivers seat but they're still capable of objecting/becoming disillusioned with us? Because that's the way I see Loyal. Even if it's retroactive history as opposed to brainwashing I've still got some reservations about committed or fanatical.
 
Valkhir said:
On a society level? Those aren't worth talking about.
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Obligstory.

"We live in a society 🤡"

Societies are made up of individuals. There will be plenty of opportunities for us to prove our excellence, just as their are in our world.

Not picking loyalty doesnt mean "no one in your world will ever like you or listen to you."

It just means doing something to deserve it. Instead of having it handed to us.

And yes. That includes on a societal level. Were exalted.

Valkhir said:
If we're talking personal loyalty Verdant Emptiness is good + Exce but thats it.

False Spring requires they be under a curse or some kind of malady and thats ALSO a "serve me or you suffer" type Charm. So if we ask something with the implicit offer that they can reject doing it for us...it would still disable the Charm, because thats how it works.
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Then you aren't very creative.

Jack even convinced me golden years tarnished black could be put to good ends.

To say nothing of the old sword and boot approach to helping people.

It worked back on the Tribal and medieval days, and plenty of people even now admire "strength."

I'm talking about helping and saving people not conquest there btw.
 
'Loyal' explicitly only installs us as a head of state. People do what we say because we're the Mayor of Halloween or whatever, not because we're their personal goddess. There's an option that explicitly does make us their personal goddess, and it's the next one on the list.

And "I'm the Mayor because I founded Halloween Town" isn't some massive imposition, you know?
 
OctarineShrike said:
Have you considered the retroactive history angle? Like, the way the history and culture develops makes them inclined to let us in the drivers seat but they're still capable of objecting/becoming disillusioned with us? Because that's the way I see Loyal. Even if it's retroactive history as opposed to brainwashing I've still got some reservations about committed or fanatical.
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I suppose it would be whatever we want it to be, but do we really need to?

Why not just do something to actually deserve loyalty?

Though then begrudgingly following our orders still opens the door for us being a possible good leader.
 
zxzx24 said:
Obligstory.

"We live in a society 🤡"

Societies are made up of individuals. There will be plenty of opportunities for us to prove our excellence, just as their are in our world.

Not picking loyalty doesnt mean "no one in your world will ever like you or listen to you."

It just means doing something to deserve it. Instead of having it handed to us.

And yes. That includes on a societal level. Were exalted.


Then you aren't very creative.

Jack even convinced me golden years tarnished black could be put to good ends.

To say nothing of the old sword and boot approach to helping people.

It worked back on the Tribal and medieval days, and plenty of people even now admire "strength."

I'm talking about helping and saving people not conquest there btw.
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Yeah we are just coming at it from very different points and aren't going to agree.

Edit: Going on about how bad tyrannical mind stamping is and then turning around to sword and boot and rule from power is very big brain.
 
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Valkhir said:
Yeah we are just coming at it from very different points and aren't going to agree.
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*shrug* fair enough?

Hm. I should try building earth when I get home...

Also post my ideal world, cause why not.

Part of it's honestly because I genuinely want to see a world and society develop without us automatically controlling everything.

It's a chance to build something truly great, and deciding that no. This is the shape things will be because I say so is...

For me kinda takes way from the majesty and godliness of it all.
 
I know this is early for the conversation, but I think it is worth noting now since you guys are talking about it:

Loyalty is not absolute, neither is taking rebels. These people can be made disloyal by mistreatment and conversely they can be swayed to your side by being a kind and fair ruler. Now you can argue the point of 'is it fair to start them off loyal?' and that is more than fair, but that does not mean they are slaves to your will.
 
DragonParadox said:
I know this is early for the conversation, but I think it is worth noting now since you guys are talking about it:

Loyalty is not absolute, neither is taking rebels. These people can be made disloyal by mistreatment and conversely they can be swayed to your side by being a kind and fair ruler. Now you can argue the point of 'is it fair to start them off loyal?' and that is more than fair, but that does not mean they are slaves to your will.
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Interesting. Can create a catch 22.

The culture that makes them interesting and allows them to self govern, might also allow them to organize against us.

Just the same technology that makes them useful could be used to rebel.

Assuming we cock up badly enough anyway.

Also assuming we don't do something wild like limit the culture and technology to the worlds plants and animals for instance :V
 
One more thing if you do not want pre-made loyalty. You could just take devils (which you could bind by hand with charms) , heavenly and one of the larger sizes and then rescue people Red Court blood slaves into your own personal sanctuary for the deposessed. That would give you a loyal populace, though quite limited in number and you would have to get them the resources to build infrastructure manually.
 
DragonParadox said:
One more thing if you do not want pre-made loyalty. You could just take devils (which you could bind by hand with charms) , heavenly and one of the larger sizes and then rescue people Red Court blood slaves into your own personal sanctuary for the deposessed. That would give you a loyal populace, though quite limited in number and you would have to get them the resources to build infrastructure manually.
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That defeats the main point for me, which is taking (magically and/or technologically) Advanced. At that point we may as well just use Demons for everything and make THEM Advanced and have humans as just guests and taken care of well in there. If that would be more palatable (for some reason?)
 
Valkhir said:
That defeats the main point for me, which is taking (magically and/or technologically) Advanced. At that point we may as well just use Demons for everything and make THEM Advanced and have humans as just guests and taken care of well in there. If that would be more palatable (for some reason?)
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Fair, just giving options.

If you are after advanced tech most of all though you can make a machine world, though that would be a lot more fitting to someone with a lot of wicked city charms.
 
DragonParadox said:
If you are after advanced tech most of all though you can make a machine world, though that would be a lot more fitting to someone with a lot of wicked city charms.
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Best for us would be around current earth level tech and very advanced magic infrastructure using purely demons now that I think about it.

Charred Sinner Renewal may only cost a tub of Bleach but it would be way better if we could just comission a tank of it and just go there when needed.

If we could bind/hire/command some demons with automatic firearms or magical equivalents, we could then use the Lanka charm that blows up everything manmade around us and win every firefight ever with our squad and would make demons better able to navigate Earth if they know tech intimately, making them more useful.

Edit: If they had good magic or cybernetics, maybe they could even do stuff like surgery that helps fix people even after we've done 2/3 Verdant Emptiness charges on them and dont want to CoD them.
 
DragonParadox said:
One more thing if you do not want pre-made loyalty. You could just take devils (which you could bind by hand with charms) , heavenly and one of the larger sizes and then rescue people Red Court blood slaves into your own personal sanctuary for the deposessed. That would give you a loyal populace, though quite limited in number and you would have to get them the resources to build infrastructure manually.
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I wonder if we could get an angel :thonk:

A non fallen one I mean. I am sure the white god would like to know whats going on in our pocket universe. And how prestigious would that be?

Valkhir said:
That defeats the main point for me, which is taking (magically and/or technologically) Advanced. At that point we may as well just use Demons for everything and make THEM Advanced and have humans as just guests and taken care of well in there. If that would be more palatable (for some reason?)
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You can take advanced technology and magitech without sentient life. It just makes the place littered with and constructed of said technology or magi tech.

Presumably they could then make use of it.

If your looking for human visionaries? People with 4 or even 5 dots in computers or technology?

They are gonna be thin on the ground, willful, and likely pursuing their own tasks. Much like they would be in our world.

Also once again. Please don't use this dimension as a source of free slaves >.>
 
Valkhir said:
Best for us would be around current earth level tech and very advanced magic infrastructure using purely demons now that I think about it.
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How about this but backwards?

Slave-Realm (Cost: 1 point): The majority of the Hell's population exists as an oppressed (or outright tortured) underclass with no power to call their own, ruled over by an elite and favored few, who are likely monstrous beings if your Hell has Resident Devils, and which are likely loyal to you and carry out their torments on your behalf if your Realm is Loyal.
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A majority population of humans, with a few powerful Bakemono loyal to us who have strict instructions to assist and protect the human population. Instead of torture and dominate them. If they are supposed to be super loyal.

Then crank technology and culture up. Along with Flora and Fauna danger level, which will be mitigated by the Bakemono.
 
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zxzx24 said:
How about this but backwards?


A majority population of humans, with a few powerful Bakemono loyal to us who have strict instructions to assist and protect the human population. Instead of torture and dominate them. If they are supposed to be super loyal.

Then crank technology and culture up. Along with Flora and Fauna danger level, which will be mitigated by the Bakemono.
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I think thats just Gaols?

Since it says it can also just mean "your Hell has super swole security, maybe the realm itself maybe demons".

And then just have the security be this..retinue.
 
zxzx24 said:
You can take advanced technology and magitech without sentient life. It just makes the place littered with and constructed of said technology or magi tech.

Presumably they could then make use of it.

If your looking for human visionaries? People with 4 or even 5 dots in computers or technology?

They are gonna be thin on the ground, willful, and likely pursuing their own tasks. Much like they would be in our world.

Also once again. Please don't use this dimension as a source of free slaves >.>
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I don't want to use the Slave Dimension extra, but starting with a population of loyal humans or devils is only sensible, if we want to make something from our Hell.

After all we made the place, why shouldn't we be the first mayor?

If our rule is shit, the low-level loyalty won't save us from rebellion, but I doubt we'd be that bad.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I don't want to use the Slave Dimension extra, but starting with a population of loyal humans or devils is only sensible, if we want to make something from our Hell.

After all we made the place, why shouldn't we be the first mayor?

If our rule is shit, the low-level loyalty won't save us from rebellion, but I doubt we'd be that bad.
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Even the highest level of loyalty will not prevent rebellion if you are bad enough, just ask the Yozi. :V

One night call this a hell and the tainted essence that runs though your Exaltation might make its themes run to darker themes, but what this is at its core is an echo of Ancient Creation, a shadow of a shadow, but still enough power to forge a world.
 
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