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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I'd honestly like to fully support it but idk if we even have the Favours to.
Well this is our current Favours and the costs for the full support.
Kraka Ornsmotek, "The Eagle's Peak Hold": Standing 9, Favours 250 (70)
Kraka Dorden, "The Thunder Hold": Standing 9, Favours 100 (50)
Kraka Ravnsvake, "The Raven's Roost Hold": Standing 9, Favours 40 (50)
Kraka Drakk, "The Dragon Hold," Standing 10, Favours 440 (30)

We cannot perform full support as we do not have enough favour with Ravnsvake. We can do a partial though.

Edit: and mechanically, we don't really need a ton more standing with the Cult of Valaya.
Cult of Valaya: Standing 8, Favours 200
- Standing 5, Shieldmaiden, Defender: Valkyrie Guard added to potential recruitment pool.
- Standing 7, Healer, Brewer: Retainers now have access and ability to administer Valayan brews and medicine, + Medical Aid and Endurance
Yes, we aren't hitting max Standing (10) with a partial support but there is no proof that we'll get a bonus at that level.
 
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Vragni is amazing. I want him working on the Library with us.A place where disagreements and conflicts can be had without screwing the entire fabric of dwarven societynor raising grudges!

The ancestors would approve!
 
Well this is our current Favours and the costs for the full support.
Kraka Ornsmotek, "The Eagle's Peak Hold": Standing 9, Favours 250 (70)
Kraka Dorden, "The Thunder Hold": Standing 9, Favours 100 (50)
Kraka Ravnsvake, "The Raven's Roost Hold": Standing 9, Favours 40 (50)
Kraka Drakk, "The Dragon Hold," Standing 10, Favours 440 (30)

We cannot perform full support as we do not have enough favour with Ravnsvake. We can do a partial though.

Edit: and mechanically, we don't really need a ton more standing with the Cult of Valaya.

Yes, we aren't hitting max Standing (10) with a partial support but there is no proof that we'll get a bonus at that level.
I mean a) will probably get some favor for the campaign. And B) isn't that gust us owing favors to Ravnsvake? We can pay that back later.
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
Freyda will likely see her proposal agreed to, but anything beyond the minimum will be on her and her alone. Your word carries weight, and you suppose this is as good a use for it as any. Gain +1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [30 Favours from Kraka Dorden, Ornsmotek and Ravnsvake, 10 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
 
[ ] The Vanguard. Where you're arguably your most effective. Also where Vragni has been putting himself for several decades now. Is it worth the potential headache?

We have made ourselves a tremendous force, it is time to unleash it.

[] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.

Not really interested in that possible headache.

[ ] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.

Help push it through, but plaitlings should be able to build their own projects without your constant oversight
 
I mean a) will probably get some favor for the campaign. And B) isn't that gust us owing favors to Ravnsvake? We can pay that back later.
Will settling the peninsula guarantee it's safety? Or will it simply cost us more lives when someone decides to move in? And how much harder will they be to dislodge if they are able to take over the forts? I'm thinking about Orcs.
 
Well this is our current Favours and the costs for the full support.
Kraka Ornsmotek, "The Eagle's Peak Hold": Standing 9, Favours 250 (70)
Kraka Dorden, "The Thunder Hold": Standing 9, Favours 100 (50)
Kraka Ravnsvake, "The Raven's Roost Hold": Standing 9, Favours 40 (50)
Kraka Drakk, "The Dragon Hold," Standing 10, Favours 440 (30)

We cannot perform full support as we do not have enough favour with Ravnsvake. We can do a partial though.

Edit: and mechanically, we don't really need a ton more standing with the Cult of Valaya.

Yes, we aren't hitting max Standing (10) with a partial support but there is no proof that we'll get a bonus at that level.
I assume the option wouldn't be there if we couldn't afford to pick it, and its easy enough to pick up 10 favour from retainer actions even if that means we're in favour debt one turn.
And we have no evidence that we get a bonus, but also we do have evidence that we get standing bonus from cities at 10 Standing so its not exactly a leap to assume there will be something here.
 
A hammer rings out for a final time, and the clarion ringing echoes through the cavern for what feels like an eternity, followed by a restful silence.

Beautiful. Radiant. Wondrous.

It is one of the finest work these old hands have forged, though not the one closest to His heart. The wonder of wonders, the shape of all that He is, that They are, made manifest.

It shall be the last these yet mortal hands, already unravelling and only grown worse by this act, shall create as they currently are.
"yet mortal hands" "as they currently are"

This sounds like... he's becoming too much of a true divinity to be able to remain in the world, or something? (The cost of doing business; the Great Vortex protects the world from Chaos Daemons walking the world. But I think it also prevents Gods walking the world too. Or maybe it was Asuryan's Decree prevents Gods? Don't fully remember. Anyway.) Or maybe he's turning into stone, and needs to go to the Underearth or Glittering Realm to avoid that.

I wonder what exactly he built. Some Gateway or Doorway to the Glitterimg Realm or something perhaps?
Even with your hammer's new capabilities, you aren't sure it could be done in a timely fashion as you haven't ever tested the scale of your finer level of control to such a degree. You were all but certain that you could make a path one dwarf wide, but unless you wanted everyone to walk into Fimir territory single file, an army required something a bit more substantial.
Mhorni would make that a two-dwarf-wide path I suppose. Since he'd double our productivity in this particular case.

Of course the obvious question is; would combining the efforts of Snorri's hammer and the Grungni statue, result in even faster road construction together? Will it make it even easier and faster for Dwarfs to build the road after the Statue hardens the path?

And of course our gear might empower the Statue itself too. ... And our Eye might let us spot flaws in the hardened earth and correct them faster, thus letting us and the builders build the roads even better and faster.
Where among the Throng will you situate yourself.
[ ] The Vanguard. Where you're arguably your most effective. Also where Vragni has been putting himself for several decades now. Is it worth the potential headache?
[ ] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
And that's why I wanna pick The Statue.
The Colonization Proposal.
[ ] [Support:] Fully Support the proposal.
Freyda will almost assuredly get the Northern Kings to agree to her proposal and with good odds of them agreeing to ideas she considered outside her reach before. You'd be throwing your weight around in this manner, and it will show. With Silverbrand in Ornsmotek there's sure to be pushback there because of it. Gain +2 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [70 Favours from Kraka Ornsmotek, 50 Favours from Kraka Dorden, and Ravnsvake, 30 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
[ ] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
Freyda will likely see her proposal agreed to, but anything beyond the minimum will be on her and her alone. Your word carries weight, and you suppose this is as good a use for it as any. Gain +1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [30 Favours from Kraka Dorden, Ornsmotek and Ravnsvake, 10 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
This is how much favor we have;

Kraka Ornsmotek, "The Eagle's Peak Hold": Standing 9, Favours 250
Kraka Dorden, "The Thunder Hold": Standing 9, Favours 100
Kraka Ravnsvake, "The Raven's Roost Hold": Standing 9, Favours 40
Kraka Drakk, "The Dragon Hold," Standing 10, Favours 440

We literally don't even have enough favor with Ravnsvake to be able to afford this right now. Which means we'd probably be forced to commit an action, probably a Retainer action, to shore that up.

Which means we wouldn't be able to spend that Retainer action on anything else we might want or need.

And, also, the Fully Support action would unlock Actions to take on its own too. I don't want to drown in even more options right now.

Especially as I think we accepted a Commission or Work Request lately too? Something about the High King's son's campaign I think? I can't recall if we need to do anything more than just send The Miner, but.

Even if it wasn't for that though, we still have so much research to get through. And the absolute crap-ton of Actions that our Khazagar project will eat up!
 
I still don't understand what Vragni's problem with Snorri is. What is so radical about Snorri's productivity?
If nothing else Snorri is a lot looser in his interpretation of the rule of pride. Not beyond what is acceptable, but certainly less stringent then Vragni takes it. So where Snorri just repeats combo's made out of non-master runes with relative impunity (and none master runes not fully counting is an accepted interpretation in this era) Vragni build up a giant library of technically different runes to make everything novel via mix and match.

On top of this there is of course Snorri's generally more radical behaviour which annoys his traditionalist sensibilities.

Also probably a degree of plain envy because they both focus on productivity but Snorri is the more successful of the two and overshadows Vragni a fair bit.
 
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Asuryan's Decree prevents Gods? Don't fully remember
Thats 40K, not Fantasy. Whetever gods even walked the earth in Fantasy is officially unclear, with some Elven myths claiming it, but outside of very specific examples like Sigmar there doesn't seem to be any proof.
 
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I assume the option wouldn't be there if we couldn't afford to pick it, and its easy enough to pick up 10 favour from retainer actions even if that means we're in favour debt one turn.
And we have no evidence that we get a bonus, but also we do have evidence that we get standing bonus from cities at 10 Standing so its not exactly a leap to assume there will be something here.
Well let's ask the WM.
@soulcake
What's the story if/when we go into negative favors on something?
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
Freyda will likely see her proposal agreed to, but anything beyond the minimum will be on her and her alone. Your word carries weight, and you suppose this is as good a use for it as any. Gain +1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [30 Favours from Kraka Dorden, Ornsmotek and Ravnsvake, 10 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.

[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] A band of Runesmiths muttering to each other at levels they think are quiet.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.

[X] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.
[X] [Support:] Fully Support the proposal.
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
Freyda will likely see her proposal agreed to, but anything beyond the minimum will be on her and her alone. Your word carries weight, and you suppose this is as good a use for it as any. Gain +1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [30 Favours from Kraka Dorden, Ornsmotek and Ravnsvake, 10 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
 
Well, it's been two hours, so I'm voting now.

[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Fully Support the proposal.
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] Let them come to you. Random Encounter.
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
 
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[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.
[X] [Support:] Fully Support the proposal.
 
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.

[X] [Support:] Fully Support the proposal.

[X] The Vanguard. Where you're arguably your most effective. Also where Vragni has been putting himself for several decades now. Is it worth the potential headache?[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.

[X] A band of Runesmiths muttering to each other at levels they think are quiet.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] Let them come to you. Random Encounter.

No better way to piss off a "traditionalist" than to show exactly how effective we are right next to him. And while it's not likely to convince him, it is likely to get him to back off in the face of superior skill.
 
[X] The Vanguard. Where you're arguably your most effective. Also where Vragni has been putting himself for several decades now. Is it worth the potential headache?
[X] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] A band of Runesmiths muttering to each other at levels they think are quiet
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
Freyda will likely see her proposal agreed to, but anything beyond the minimum will be on her and her alone. Your word carries weight, and you suppose this is as good a use for it as any. Gain +1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [30 Favours from Kraka Dorden, Ornsmotek and Ravnsvake, 10 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
 
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