I can understand the reasoning, and the logic of what you are saying, but the problem is that, well, this is a setting made by Tolkien. So, say, if we found away to replace failing organs, then Eru may as well just cause any of the taken organs to rapidly rot apart, the idea of using a house of life or death is not by itself bad, it is the symbolism and meaning that makes it so important to make a statement like the doom unerring, so nobody gets their hopes up that this will finally save them from death.
 
but the problem is that, well, this is a setting made by Tolkien. So, say, if we found away to replace failing organs, then Eru may as well just cause any of the taken organs to rapidly rot apart
Even in Tolkien setting after Minas-Tirit battle Aragorn did not say: "Well, Doom is Unerring, and that's why all wounded are Doomed anyway". No, he went and healed as much as he could.

And I really like the symbolism "Answer to medical problems with medical care". Of cause, when Healers will not manage to bring truely Unending Life (and I assume that they will not ;)), there will be another crisis, and we'll give another answer. But untill then my answer is Life, Unending.
 
And I really like the symbolism "Answer to medical problems with medical care".
It's not a medical problem, it's a "Shapers myopically prioritize speed of construction over worker safety" problem that could perhaps have been redressed with a medical intervention after the fact (but probably not - having a building fall on you is usually deadly and even more usually crippling).

Still need an answer as to whether building something in response to Hurin's death will delay construction on Tharbad's walls. If so, that and the Great Alliance (and thus Plan Green Shoots of Hope) are working at cross-purposes.
 
Last edited:
It's not a medical problem, it's a "Shapers myopically prioritize speed of construction over worker safety" problem that could perhaps have been redressed with a medical intervention after the fact (but probably not - having a building fall on you is usually deadly and even more usually crippling).
I totally agree that problem of worker's safety also needs to be solved. But the quality of Numenor Healears is very high. They probably could do something:
"The masters of the House of Life may mend the broken and the bleeding"
"before her population grew too great, long years passed on the Blessed Isle without a single dying."
"the healing plant that cures all wounds and banishes illness"

Also such medical care would be good for immigration (Pelargir has it's hospital).
 
Even in Tolkien setting after Minas-Tirit battle Aragorn did not say: "Well, Doom is Unerring, and that's why all wounded are Doomed anyway". No, he went and healed as much as he could.

And I really like the symbolism "Answer to medical problems with medical care". Of cause, when Healers will not manage to bring truely Unending Life (and I assume that they will not ;)), there will be another crisis, and we'll give another answer. But untill then my answer is Life, Unending.

No, no, no, I don't mean that, because of the fact that having us get Athelas and a person from the house of life, we can extend people's lives well past the norm that is fine. I'm looking at it, as most people are, as to how we deal with the matter of death, can we extend it to immortality through medicine, well yes, if not for that inconvenient fact that Eru Illuvatar declared that all men shall die. Meaning that the idea of immortality through medicine is completely moot. Again, it's only through the symbolism, not the idea itself.
 
It's not a medical problem, it's a "Shapers myopically prioritize speed of construction over worker safety" problem that could perhaps have been redressed with a medical intervention after the fact (but probably not - having a building fall on you is usually deadly and even more usually crippling).

Still need an answer as to whether building something in response to Hurin's death will delay construction on Tharbad's walls. If so, that and the Great Alliance (and thus Plan Green Shoots of Hope) are working at cross-purposes.
Yeah, making any memorial and it will lock out the rest of the building from Skippy's plan but, that's why he made it so that death options were separate from the plan itself.
 
Last edited:
can we extend it to immortalty through medicine, well yes, if not for that inconveinet fact that Eru Illuvatar declared that all men shall die.
I do not argue with that.
(well, with another colony we could try, but specialization of our colony is totally unsuited for this task, and probability of positive outcome would be extreemly low anyway)
 
Last edited:
[x] The Hunting-Oak
[x] Doom, Unerring
[x] Plan Green Shoots of Hope
 
How do the construction projects in reaction to Hurin's death interact with the construction project to rebuild Tharbad's walls?

With no extra construction projects, we finish the Shaper's Hall and Shipyard next turn. With the walls, it will be the turn after.

With construction of the temple, or Houses of Life/Death, then I'm unsure. @Telamon?
 
[X] The Men of Sunlight
[X] Life, Unending
[X] Fear, Overcome

[X] Plan Green Shoots of Hope

I've already explained why i think the hospital and temple are the best choices for dealing with the concerns regarding mortality, and why I feel the men of sunlight are the most thematic and cool of the legacies. So, those plus Skippy's plan for growth of the local diplomatic situations and some work done to mitigate the tightened belts from the food situation.
 
So, people have mentioned that Minas Tirith had a House of Healing (not a House of Life, but four millennia of cultural drift will do that). But one thing that has gone unmentioned so far in the discussion is Eowyn's choice of profession and how it is framed. Eowyn initially sought to meet her death in battle "laughing and singing" as her people, Men of Twilight, were wont, but ultimately decided to become a healer and find "no joy in songs of slaying." This is framed as wise.

I still think Doom, Unerring (and a plan to build a House of Life later) is the correct choice at this time, to avoid simply reacting to Hurin's death in fear and to avoid disrupting our construction, but it's something to think about.
 
Last edited:
[X] The Men of Sunlight
[X] Doom, Unerring
[X] Plan Green Shoots of Hope

While I would like to contact the Hillmen, I can see the logic in holding off on it until Inzilbeth returns. She is legendary among the Middle Men, so she'd probably have luck getting them to talk.
 
[X] The Men of Sunlight
[X] Doom, Unerring
[X] Plan Green Shoots of Hope

While I would like to contact the Hillmen, I can see the logic in holding off on it until Inzilbeth returns. She is legendary among the Middle Men, so she'd probably have luck getting them to talk.

Thinking about it, depending on when we decide to pull the trigger, she might also make an equally good hero to take up the High King questline. I'd been assuming Barazir was the logical choice there, and I still think he'd be a good one for going to find lost crowns and so on, but she might well be better suited for what is ultimately a highly political endeavour.
 
[X] Plan Green Shoots of Hope, Tree, Life, Fear
-[X] The Great Alliance (Tharbad)
---[X] Trade (Tharbad): Stone for Grain.
-[X] Pay a Visit to Rivendell (Imrazôr)
--[X] Invite Hazrabân to come with us to learn about his heritage, and show him the virtues our people have nearly forgotten. Both the Middle Men and the Númenóreans descend from the Edain, and he can hear these stories from those who were there when Men stood together with Elves to fight the darkness in the North.
--[X] On our way back, spend some time visiting the former Middle Men serfs of Tharbad, welcoming them as free Men and allies.
-[X] Expand Pastures
-[X] Send an Envoy to the Barrow-Men
-[X] Send an Envoy to the Men of the Great Lake
-[X] Send an Envoy to the Dwarf-Friends
-[X] Research the Middle Men
-[X] Ironbark (Barazîr)
-[X] The Hunting-Oak
-[X] Life, Unending
-[X] Fear, Overcome
 
[X] The Men of Sunlight

This has has some excellent contrast with the immediate consequences of Doom, Unerring as they were once Men of Twilight captured, and taken into bondage only to be rescued by a grim faced ranger who they followed into a wondrous city under the star. This means despite their short lives compared to the sons, and daughters of Numenor they will me making the most of the time that is given to them while being a rather joyous people who've been rescued from torment to live free under sunlight.

Meanwhile their cousins from Numenor are likely to be rather grim faced as they will not even have traditions that many in their heart of hearts adhere to in the hope that doing so will someday grant them the gift of immortality, and morale will suffer even with what counsel Elrond gives, but I think it will pass as all things do in time especially under these circumstances. Because they have been given through no action of their own a lifespan that allows them to see generations of their cousins live, and wear down their sense of entitlement that the blessings passed onto them for the deeds of their forefathers has given them.

[X] Doom, Unerring

I've already done a post already on my initial thoughts on the options, and in addition them I'd like to note that this option seems like it has potential to better connection with the Middle-Men as they never had messengers like the Faithful sent to them. That being said we'll likely want to take some of the other options in the future depending on how things work out.

Also this seems likely to result in a people more focused on deciding what to do with the time that is given to them, and that should serve for an interesting contrast to Numenor proper.

[X] Plan Green Shoots of Hope

While the delay in construction won't look particularly good with the Shaper representative showing up after some contemplation... I suspect without doing it Hazraban is unlikely* to venture so far away from the walls of his tower, and journey to Rivendale. This is an issue as without that I suspect his people will continue down a path all too similar to the Black Numenoreans, and it would be all too easy for a group defined by being good soldiers to be put to ill use in the region by Sauron once he gains influence in the blessed isle.

That being said it is entirely possible for Hazraban to be healed only for his descendants to fall back into darkness, and Tharbad to become a route for evil to foster darkness in the hearts of those who dwell within the region again, but it is worth a shot to plug this particular hole imo.

*This isn't at all surprising as MoS indicates the hatred runs deep.
 
Back
Top