I just have a feeling that the first gdi ambassador to the council is kind of going up flatly tell them that we don't trust them and might not ever because of are past and how their system works and if they even have any ideas of trying to get tiberium from us that last one is probably going to cause a storm of anger that will make are guys to never trust them?

"We'd like some Tiberium to study-"

"See Ted? Told you they want to destroy themselves or Kane sent himself to their homeworlds to start infiltrating them. Well folks lets.go home turn on the highest sensitivity of attack protocols around the quarantine zone."
 
[X] Plan Red Zone Lines + Predators + Unions

A free dice put on the option I wanted more out of the two.

Awesome.
 
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TCN kinda cool tho. That and saving earth is less risky than evacuating 1.5 billion people into space. We might be biased because we know the TCN works due to OOC knowledge.
The thing is, a lot of civilians (remember, Yellow Zone civilians are civilians) will in fact believe Kane, or will consider him to be roughly as credible as GDI. Furthermore, Kane can be very open about this machine and what it does, keeping only a few very specific secrets about his own intent to ascend along with his inner circle using the device.

I'm not sure Kane would offer the TCN at all as long as abatement works.
That's a distinct point. He offered it when he did because GDI was desperate. He might well pursue a different strategy in this timeline.

1. We can make our own TCN it just takes some time, something that we have because of our choices and if it takes too long we are already on our way to evacuating portions of the planet.
2. Kane wants the TCN for his own plans, why would we want to help him?
3. Twilight killed the series so we wouldn't know but if he leaves then what is stopping him from coming back and killing us with a massive army/fleet of highly advanced aliens because we stood in his way?
4. We might know what the TCN does but the parliament and GDI high command has no idea what it does/could do. If they did know that it could control tiberium why would they go along with Kane and help him? He is the direct cause of millions of deaths in their perspective.
1) As discussed we can't be assured of making our own TCN, now or ever (at least in time to stop tiberium from overrunning the Earth).

2) Because we want the TCN for our own plans, and the actual nature of the device is that everyone can get what they want from it. In canon, GDI won because it got a machine that controlled and shut down tiberium expansion so that GDI could rebuild the Earth, and Kane won because he and his followers got to escape the Earth. Rejecting the TCN to deny Kane the win means denying ourselves the win, although to be fair many GDI supporters will will (with reason) be worried that it's all a trick on Kane's part and that the machine doesn't perform as advertised but is instead some kind of Nod superweapon.

3) Well, it's conceivable that he might do that, but it's also conceivable that he just wouldn't care once he'd left Earth. Or that he doesn't actually have a gigantic armada on speed-dial to invade us with. Or that wherever he's going he has no realistic way of coming back. Or that he's a delusional madman and all his followers will be slaughtered whenever they get where they're going.

4) They'd want to control tiberium very much, whether the device helps Kane or not. There'd be arguments over what to do, but there'd be a strong motivation to cooperate with Kane. The main limiting factors would be (A) those who would rather allow the whole Earth to be consumed by tiberium, with the GDI survivors taking their chances in space, than to work with Kane for even a moment, and (B) those who would work with Kane if they trusted him but are too concerned that the TCN is actually a trap designed to trick GDI into wasting time or into building Nod's superweapon for it.

If we do housing grants, it is possible that they will cost logistics. Just like we get other costs with the grants we already have, with no control over when it happens.
Hmmm, that is a distinct point.

@Ithillid , should we expect a steady Logistics cost from housing grants? I foresee several possibilities:

1) This could be a "no comment, try it and find out" thing.
2) The answer could be "yes, because the grant recipients will build housing and building the infrastructure to support that housing is your problem."
3) The answer could be "no, because the funding that goes into the grant projects will also include subsidies to local government for infrastructure and things like that."

I have nothing against Citadel races themselves. I have everything against the dumb system they set up in the Galaxy. Which I can lay blame for on the Pre-2008 Crisis Capitalist Zeitgeist culture of "Laissez faire über alles" at Bioware, and with all of that how the Citadel was set up to be an Alien Euro-America, even then the conservative commentators had been screeching about lesbian porn in ME1.
Um... Phantom was basically asserting that the Council was largely in the right about all the things it did, with very little criticism of its system seeming to be present.

Does that mean your earlier post about liking what he was saying was pure sarcasm?

I just have a feeling that the first gdi ambassador to the council is kind of going up flatly tell them that we don't trust them and might not ever because of are past and how their system works and if they even have any ideas of trying to get tiberium from us that last one is probably going to cause a storm of anger that will make are guys never trust them?
I think I would find that kind of super-aggressive super-isolationist '''diplomacy''' to be very annoying and offputting compared to the far more interesting challenge of exploring how GDI would engage with this broad new milieu.
 
Since TCN is a win condition, how expensive do you think its going to be? I think at minimum it will be 10k+ and a staggering energy and capital cost. Liquid tib reactor power the TCN. The height of irony.

Huh. I just realized something. We might need to prepare to defend against an amphibious invasion from Africa protecting the Twin cities. Which on its own would be a political coup. As that might drive the more moderate Islamic NOD warlord towards our cause. But we should be able to get reinforcements from BZ-4. Is there anything of particular note in BZ-4?
 
GDI after having Treasury Secretary as their basically leaders for decades: OK sure, let's have normal political parties and all that but let's place all the real power in the Treasury. It has worked so far really well.

To the surprise of actually everyone, it works really well. Just don't be surprised if the diplomacy/political support game is kind of skeevy.
 
Since we do have an excess in Housing, could we bring in the Forgotten into the Yellow Zone Fortresses or planned cities? Or use it for military garrison housing?
 
Since TCN is a win condition, how expensive do you think its going to be? I think at minimum it will be 10k+ and a staggering energy and capital cost. Liquid tib reactor power the TCN. The height of irony.

If we build the TCN it wouldn't be a single project in all likelihood, it would span multiple FYP's with multiple megaprojects that utterly dominate planning for decades between the tens of thousands of points the TCN would directly consume plus the tens of thousands more points of supporting infrastructure needed to keep society running in the meantime/feed the TCN.
 
Since we do have an excess in Housing, could we bring in the Forgotten into the Yellow Zone Fortresses or planned cities? Or use it for military garrison housing?
The Forgotten mostly don't trust us enough for that yet. What is probably the best use for the low-quality Blue Zone housing, is for the Yellow Zone refugees we got from the YZ MARV hub, and that we'll be getting as we do further YZ outreach. (Such as YZ Tib Harvesting.)
 
So, we might need to sprint the food bit but it looks like we will meet our 4 year plan. Amazing. Will we meet the GDI income increase you think? It's gonna be tight.
 
So, we might need to sprint the food bit but it looks like we will meet our 4 year plan. Amazing. Will we meet the GDI income increase you think? It's gonna be tight.

Hitting all the targets should be incredibly easy I don't see what you think is going to be tight? Food is the closest thing to a problem, and between Entari and two phases of YZ aquaponics it'll still overcomplete pretty easily. The income target isn't remotely a problem, we only need to get 25 more income and that'll come just in the process of fulfilling the last MARV fleet we need, without even accounting for additional harvesting added between now and the end of the FYP. If we roll really high on the MARV fleet the income target could be cleared this turn, or if we only roll average it'll be cleared next turn when the MARVs finish.
 
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My main fear about income is we are still hitting the limits of our resource mining and protection detail. One bad roll could make that dicey. As for Food I mostly agree just that aquaponics will need a more YZ water infra too even utilize them, which is another infra project. I'm mostly jumping on worst-Bad case scenarios.
 
The thing is, a lot of civilians (remember, Yellow Zone civilians are civilians) will in fact believe Kane, or will consider him to be roughly as credible as GDI. Furthermore, Kane can be very open about this machine and what it does, keeping only a few very specific secrets about his own intent to ascend along with his inner circle using the device.

That's a distinct point. He offered it when he did because GDI was desperate. He might well pursue a different strategy in this timeline.

1) As discussed we can't be assured of making our own TCN, now or ever (at least in time to stop tiberium from overrunning the Earth).

2) Because we want the TCN for our own plans, and the actual nature of the device is that everyone can get what they want from it. In canon, GDI won because it got a machine that controlled and shut down tiberium expansion so that GDI could rebuild the Earth, and Kane won because he and his followers got to escape the Earth. Rejecting the TCN to deny Kane the win means denying ourselves the win, although to be fair many GDI supporters will will (with reason) be worried that it's all a trick on Kane's part and that the machine doesn't perform as advertised but is instead some kind of Nod superweapon.

3) Well, it's conceivable that he might do that, but it's also conceivable that he just wouldn't care once he'd left Earth. Or that he doesn't actually have a gigantic armada on speed-dial to invade us with. Or that wherever he's going he has no realistic way of coming back. Or that he's a delusional madman and all his followers will be slaughtered whenever they get where they're going.

4) They'd want to control tiberium very much, whether the device helps Kane or not. There'd be arguments over what to do, but there'd be a strong motivation to cooperate with Kane. The main limiting factors would be (A) those who would rather allow the whole Earth to be consumed by tiberium, with the GDI survivors taking their chances in space, than to work with Kane for even a moment, and (B) those who would work with Kane if they trusted him but are too concerned that the TCN is actually a trap designed to trick GDI into wasting time or into building Nod's superweapon for it.

Hmmm, that is a distinct point.

@Ithillid , should we expect a steady Logistics cost from housing grants? I foresee several possibilities:

1) This could be a "no comment, try it and find out" thing.
2) The answer could be "yes, because the grant recipients will build housing and building the infrastructure to support that housing is your problem."
3) The answer could be "no, because the funding that goes into the grant projects will also include subsidies to local government for infrastructure and things like that."

Um... Phantom was basically asserting that the Council was largely in the right about all the things it did, with very little criticism of its system seeming to be present.

Does that mean your earlier post about liking what he was saying was pure sarcasm?

I think I would find that kind of super-aggressive super-isolationist '''diplomacy''' to be very annoying and offputting compared to the far more interesting challenge of exploring how GDI would engage with this broad new milieu.
I am not saying that we would be isolationists just that we could be very touchy on a lot of topics not being able to really trust them because of past scars and that if they try to talk about tiberium that what sounds like a reasonable normal question could just sound like they are somehow very naive or a nod sympathizer or think they can do better than I us with it that last one would make a lot of people angry very fast since I am pretty sure their are no humans alive that have not lost something dear to tiberium?
 
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My main fear about income is we are still hitting the limits of our resource mining and protection detail. One bad roll could make that dicey. As for Food I mostly agree just that aquaponics will need a more YZ water infra too even utilize them, which is another infra project. I'm mostly jumping on worst-Bad case scenarios.

There's six turns left in the FYP, even if we had multiple utterly disastrous turns in a row I don't see how we'd fail to complete 210 points worth of MARV fleet, we're guaranteed more than 210 points just off the +15 on every die roll even if every single die comes up nat 1 between now and the end of the FYP. We don't need any more processing to hit our FYP target, we have 45 processing cap left and only need 25 more income.
 
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My main fear about income is we are still hitting the limits of our resource mining and protection detail. One bad roll could make that dicey. As for Food I mostly agree just that aquaponics will need a more YZ water infra too even utilize them, which is another infra project. I'm mostly jumping on worst-Bad case scenarios.
Just finishing the last SMARV Fleet alone, which is required to fulfill another Plan demand, would give us enough income to complete the income increase requirement.
 
When it comes to the logistics for housing, you have to pay for that. All of it. And yes, Housing Grants will be costly in logistics, which means you either need to invest in getting people off the road, or getting stuff off the road.

Edit: That is why your current Blue Zone Housing Campaigns, and Duplexes cost logistics. Because you are paying to move people around. Suburbs have all the same problems, but moreso, because even with a fairly small yard, they are not precisely compact.
 
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When it comes to the logistics for housing, you have to pay for that. All of it. And yes, Housing Grants will be costly in logistics, which means you either need to invest in getting people off the road, or getting stuff off the road.

Edit: That is why your current Blue Zone Housing Campaigns, and Duplexes cost logistics. Because you are paying to move people around. Suburbs have all the same problems, but moreso, because even with a fairly small yard, they are not precisely compact.
So all Housing Grants has going for it is we don't need to spend dice on it.

I'm not certain that's not worth it. We have two Planned Cities we'd like to be paying Infrastructure dice on, Rail Links, and Housing Grants now costs about average for one die.
 
I don't think housing grants are a good idea.

The only housing we should be building from now on are arcologies, because only arcologies are Tib-hardened. We should not be building housing that puts people at risk.

Additionally, the grants, like duplexes and housing complexes, will cost logistics. We have better uses for logistics, glacier mines being the most important example, but there may also be military projects, like ZOCOM's red zone evacuations, that require it as well.

I do not believe housing that isn't Tib-resistant, drains logistics and costs -RPT per turn is worth it. I'd rather just build arcologies outright, and ensure safety from the green rock. There is room in the budget to start one blue zone this plan, even if it isn't ready by the end.
 
1) We are very far from guaranteed to get the technologies required to build a bootleg version of the TCN. Also, said version would almost certainly be less effective/efficient/safe than the version Kane gets from the Tacitus.
When the Scrin research became an option there was a talk about making our own TCN and I vaguely remember Ithillid saying how we needed 7 technologies to do it and I don't think there would be much of a difference mechanically about them.
2) Because not doing so means we have to evacuate Earth, or die.
Yes? The three possible win conditions for the quest are TCN, evacuate earth or make humans into Scrin. At some point we have to pick one and go with it.
3) What if he has an army of flying monkeys ready to conquer the Earth? What if we have to evacuate the Earth on the back of giant space whales? This isn't an point that can be argued against, because there's no way to evaluate how likely any of those possibilities are.
It depends on how Ithillid handles it but that seems like an extremely anticlimactic way for Kane to be dealt with in this quest if he just disappears. That was another thing wrong with tib4
4) The first step, once we get the plans for the TCN, will be to study them until we know what it will do. Please don't assume everyone in-setting becomes stupid when it's convenient to your argument.
Kane and NOD have been promising salvation from tiberium for literally decades at that point, why would they suddenly believe he has the means all of a sudden? The same applies to you, don't assume everyone in-setting becomes stupid and start jumping out of their seat as soon as Kane pinky promises that he just wants to help and nothing could possibly go wrong. Also you are also assuming that Kane would allow us to study it in the first place. In OTL there either wasn't enough time/resources to completely understand the device or Kane specifically make that a point of his negotiation to not allow it to be studied. In this quest there is a big chance of us finding out how it is linked to the tower and he can not under any circumstance allow us to be able to control the tower. It would destroy his ascension plans and then it will probably devolve into total war if he say fuck it.
 
When the Scrin research became an option there was a talk about making our own TCN and I vaguely remember Ithillid saying how we needed 7 technologies to do it and I don't think there would be much of a difference mechanically about them.

Seven specific Tiberium-related technologies, out of a table of 100 techs. Not just any 7 random techs. We've currently pulled only 2 of the homebrew TCN techs, and we're lucky to have even that many. Getting the full set before we run out of Scrin tech research rolls is very unlikely.
 
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