They maybe smallest or second smallest of the big players, but they're still a player.

thing with the tau is their rate of progress is faster than that of the imperium an eldar,wich is better visualized by the exponential vs linear growth graph



they pump out several times over more efficiency out of their doctrines,industry,laws,administration and technology for the same amount of initial investment compared to the imperium and eldar even if they are smaller in total output,they are better at output per capita

the same applies to their growth and progress,what takes the imperium a millenia,takes the tau decades to a centurie-ish and they are getting faster in their progress speed

having them as protectorate,then copy their improvements and implement them on the imperium would be one hell of a growth supplement for the imperials
 
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The problem, once again, is that the T'au are currently ruling over conquered humans. Humans who used to be part of the Imperium in practice at that.
 
thing with the tau is their rate of progress is faster than that of the imperium an eldar,wich is better visualized by the exponential vs linear growth graph



they pump out several times over more efficiency out of their doctrines,administration and technology for the same amount of initial investment compared to the imperium and eldar

the same applies to their growth and progress,what takes the imperium a millenia,takes the tau decades to a centurie-ish and they are getting faster in their progress speed

It should be noted that they are still at a level comparable to the Imperium and far below the Eldar. We do not know how the physical laws in 40K may interact with the way tech improves across culture. For all we know when pre-DAOT humanity they advanced at the same level because that is just how tech advancement works in this universe. The imperium is a bad standard of comparison because they have mechanisms that actively impede technological advancement

Or there might be a C'tan shard on the Tau homeworld making them dream tech or something.
 
The Tau's advantage is that they are small enough scale that they can afford to equip their troops with the best stuff they can make. The Imperium is too big and its force commitments too vast and disparate to afford to give every man a plasma pistol or hellguns for example.
 
If there aliens and others in her afterlife can she not access technical knowledge they have while they were alive? I mean there can be few dark age human in her realm. Can she not access and distribute that knowledge accordingly?
 
If there aliens and others in her afterlife can she not access technical knowledge they have while they were alive? I mean there can be few dark age human in her realm. Can she not access and distribute that knowledge accordingly?
Okay, do you know how to build an assault rifle, or a car, or a nuclear reactor? Can you build a microchip, assemble a computer, smelt iron or grow corn? Do you know discrete mathematics? C++? Civil Engineering?

Most people don't know how to build their own toaster. Even the people who do know the things I described above tend to rely on archived knowledge or aids to actually do what they do. Pandora wasn't lucky enough to get one of the vanishingly few techno-savants who can do that with DAoT Tech.

You already have access to knowledge on the Warp that is frankly impossible to get. Stop pushing it.
 
Okay, do you know how to build an assault rifle, or a car, or a nuclear reactor? Can you build a microchip, assemble a computer, smelt iron or grow corn? Do you know discrete mathematics? C++? Civil Engineering?

Most people don't know how to build their own toaster. Even the people who do know the things I described above tend to rely on archived knowledge or aids to actually do what they do. Pandora wasn't lucky enough to get one of the vanishingly few techno-savants who can do that with DAoT Tech.

You already have access to knowledge on the Warp that is frankly impossible to get. Stop pushing it.

There is also the question of 'would you retain your knowledge of toaster making in the afterlife where you do not need it?'

My guess would be no.
 
Isn't it also kinda a bit pointless to start thinking so vastly far ahead now?

Like... we are barely halfway through our opening campaign on strategic turn 1. It's a bit early to start arguing over the fine details such as "replacing the high lords" and "complete 180's on xeno-policy", especially as our literal next steps.

We still have a fair bit of "stop things being on double-fire" to go first, and pushing too hard too fast for such massive 180's, especially ones that are 'blatantly getting rid of political opposition' is only going to make us enough enemies we can't do anything to help anyone.
 
Isn't it also kinda a bit pointless to start thinking so vastly far ahead now?

Like... we are barely halfway through our opening campaign on strategic turn 1. It's a bit early to start arguing over the fine details such as "replacing the high lords" and "complete 180's on xeno-policy", especially as our literal next steps.

We still have a fair bit of "stop things being on double-fire" to go first, and pushing too hard too fast for such massive 180's, especially ones that are 'blatantly getting rid of political opposition' is only going to make us enough enemies we can't do anything to help anyone.
It is pointless, but it's a product of boredom on people's minds.
 
The Necrons.
Unfortunately, I know less about the various dynasties then I do the general Eldar factions.
One of the additional reasons (besides the ones I put in my post) that I put reconciling/allying/opening diplomatic relations with the Eldar above doing so with the Necrons is that the Imperium itself knows much less about the various dynasties than about the various Eldar factions. Your average Imperial might lump all Eldar under the same banner, but the Imperium as a whole has ~10k years of experience with the Eldar and people who actually study them do know about the different Craftworlds and their differing attitudes and philosophies, not just basic stuff like "Asuryani are not Drukhari and vice versa." But the Necrons only started waking up much more recently and have generally not been terribly communicative. So there's a stronger base of knowledge re: what these guys are about with the Eldar.

Another reason I put the Eldar first is that Pandora can out-Warp the Warp skills of the Eldar and hence can use her Divinatory abilities to effectively guide diplomatic efforts there. But the Necrons' schtick is just outright blocking all Warp effects, which means that out of every faction they're probably the hardest for Panda to bring her unique skillset to bear to help with whatever we're trying to accomplish with them. We should definitely try to get SOMETHING more productive than a mutual commitment to fight each other to the death going there, but as a probably more difficult challenge I'd prefer to leave it for later. Pick the low-hanging fruit first, yeah?
we don't actually know what an "STC" actually is.
FYI, I'm taking your post as a prompt to discuss STCs and the Ad Mech in general - I'm sure at least some of what I'm about to say is stuff you know and/or is actually addressed in some form in the vid you linked.

The explanation of the Ad Mech's technological knowledge base that made the most sense to me at un-grimderping the setting while still being reasonably consistent with canon went something like this (I'm probably going to fumble at least part of it, but this should cover the broad strokes at least). First, on the institutional level the Ad Mech actually DOES understand a lot about technology. That's why they can make crazy original shit like Ordinatuses when they feel it's called for, and why they're able to make so many different "patterns" of many items - let's look at lasguns as our example. There are many different kinds of lasguns, which have been altered and modified in many different ways to have different properties and abilities as weapons.

However, they're all built around basically the same lasgun battery. That's because the lasgun battery, while superficially the most humble part of the device, is actually fucking insane. It's a battery small enough to hold in one hand, but powerful enough to power dozens of laser bursts each strong enough to kill a man, that can be recharged quickly from pretty much any power source with very minimal drop-off in capacity or efficiency from repeated recharges, that can moreover recharge itself slowly from just being left in the sun, or recharge itself more quickly (albeit with appreciable damage to longer-term lifespan) by literally being thrown in a fucking campfire. That's CRAZY. And that part of the technology is basically a black box. The Ad Mech does not understand it, for the actually fairly good reason that all that should probably not be possible under physics as we understand it. And that technology is what's drawn from an STC.

So, how come STCs have this tech, but the Ad Mech can't replicate it independently if they supposedly have good institutional technological knowledge? Well, the way this explanation goes, it's because STCs were originally created using AI computing that the Ad Mech is religiously opposed to using ever since the Cybernetic Revolt. In the Ad Mech's lingo, "AI" actually stands for Abominable Intelligence - any form of intelligence independent of a human mind is anathema to them. It's why servitors are such a (gross, fucked-up) thing throughout the Imperium, and why "cogitators" typically have human brains plugged into them rather than microchips. The reason why the Ad Mech can't replicate STC-derived tech is because the Ad Mech is committed to never using the tool that allowed them to be created in the first place, as a bedrock religious tenet.

So part of the dysfunction in the Ad Mech is that they're committed to chasing a dwindling stockpile of tech they will never be able to recreate themselves because they've (for at least somewhat good reason, to be fair) disallowed themselves to ever use the tools necessary to create them in the first place. And they're committed to that at the expense of devoting their efforts to building on the knowledge and science they are able to understand and use themselves. They've religiously elevated ancient technology so much that they're actively suspicious of innovation and new developments - in conventional Ad Mech theology, STC-derived tech is the true, pure form of technology. And the reason they can't replicate it isn't because they've forbidden themselves from using the tools necessary, it's because they're a divine mystery, meant to be revered rather than replicated. So any kind of change must at minimum be extremely carefully reviewed for technotheological validity before being approved, because any change inherently risks further deviation from the singular perfect form of technology. Of course, like every Imperial faction, there is considerable variation from the conventional theology in many elements of the Ad Mech, but even then they are still hampered by the fundamental barriers to progress in the Ad Mech. Such as the superstitious theological cruft coating all actual scientific knowledge in the Ad Mech - even when they're conducting independent study and experiments, they're still filtering all their efforts through a perceived need to perform extended rituals of appeasement and the like.

The other huge element of dysfunction in the Ad Mech is that while on an institutional level they have a very high level of technological knowledge, they are very very bad at broadly disseminating that knowledge even among their own membership. The transmission of knowledge in the Ad Mech functions on something halfway between a master-apprentice system and a mystery cult, which means the highest levels of true understanding are possessed only by the highest-ranking members, and they are very reluctant to share. So much like the dwarves in WHF, this makes them extremely vulnerable to losing knowledge forever if these masters are killed or die without first passing their knowledge on. That's why as bad as the Horus Heresy was for the rest of the Imperium, it was even worse for the Ad Mech - they lost a huge amount of institutional knowledge at that point, because so many of their masters/high priests/archmagoses died without first passing on their knowledge.
She does, actually! Pandora started off believing she was just a minor Goddess of Magical Girls, but later either inherited or discovered that she actually had unrestricted claims to the entire Domain of Sacrifice, which let her tap on just about anyone. There are now plenty of aliens in her afterlife, including a great many who were wiped out as a result of the Imperium's pogroms, and just as many of those volunteered to become Deva as her human followers did.
That's pretty dope tbh. Good for Panda.
It's not a great policy to underestimate the Tau for being a relatively small polity, is my opinion. For a 50 Sector polity, they've held off a tendril of a Tyranid Hive Fleet pretty well.
I'm not sure where "50 Sector" is coming from, unless there's a source I'm missing; at least per the wiki, this is the current size of the Tau Empire:
The T'au Empire is composed of over twenty fully-developed Septs and around one hundred settled worlds, but the exact number and most of their names are unknown to the Imperium.
They are indeed doing very well for a polity of one hundred worlds. But compared to the Imperium, containing (pre-Great Rift anyway) roughly one million worlds, they're barely a blip on the radar.

For what they are, they're doing very well. But what they are is minuscule on the scale we're dealing with.
especially ones that are 'blatantly getting rid of political opposition' is only going to make us enough enemies we can't do anything to help anyone.
I mean. If any given High Lord isn't blatantly getting rid of their political opposition, it's for lack of opportunity or means, not lack of willingness. Doing so really isn't a breach of established institutional norms or anything. If anything, it is the established institutional norm.
 
Oh, I confirmed in an earlier post that canon is stupid and the Tau are too small, so I upgraded them to a 50 Sector Polity.
Oh, wow. That's... a lot bigger.

Hm, to do a very rough unscientific estimate... by my count (why am I like this) there are roughly 147 worlds in the Calixis sector, discounting Dead Worlds, Death Worlds, and Forbidden Worlds. I went with Calixis because it's one of the few canon sectors that actually have that much detail written for them - maybe the only one, even? I dunno. 147 * 50 = 7350 worlds (incredibly roughly speaking). That's a LOT bigger. And that's actually possibly a very low-end estimate. The Realm of Ultramar is supposedly just a sub-sector of the Ultima Sector, but it still (famously) contains 500 worlds. Which... doesn't make a ton of sense honestly. The reduced Ultramar prior to the re-establishment of the 500 worlds being just a sub-sector makes sense, but 500 worlds makes more sense as a full sector IMO. Still, 500 * 50 is still 25,000 worlds.

Any chance we could get an Informational threadmark with canon changes like this in it? The Tau being something like maybe an order of magnitude multiplied by seven times larger (at the low end) is something that kind of HUGELY impacts any options relating to them, so it'd be cool to have somewhere we can reference stuff like that.
 
Any chance we could get an Informational threadmark with canon changes like this in it? The Tau being something like maybe an order of magnitude multiplied by seven times larger (at the low end) is something that kind of HUGELY impacts any options relating to them, so it'd be cool to have somewhere we can reference stuff like that.
I imagine the intention is for us to learn these differences the same time Pandora does, to keep us thinking in IC bounds more often. Some of them were decided by dice roll for just that reason, after all.
 
Oh, wow. That's... a lot bigger.

Hm, to do a very rough unscientific estimate... by my count (why am I like this) there are roughly 147 worlds in the Calixis sector, discounting Dead Worlds, Death Worlds, and Forbidden Worlds. I went with Calixis because it's one of the few canon sectors that actually have that much detail written for them - maybe the only one, even? I dunno. 147 * 50 = 7350 worlds (incredibly roughly speaking). That's a LOT bigger. And that's actually possibly a very low-end estimate. The Realm of Ultramar is supposedly just a sub-sector of the Ultima Sector, but it still (famously) contains 500 worlds. Which... doesn't make a ton of sense honestly. The reduced Ultramar prior to the re-establishment of the 500 worlds being just a sub-sector makes sense, but 500 worlds makes more sense as a full sector IMO. Still, 500 * 50 is still 25,000 worlds.

Any chance we could get an Informational threadmark with canon changes like this in it? The Tau being something like maybe an order of magnitude multiplied by seven times larger (at the low end) is something that kind of HUGELY impacts any options relating to them, so it'd be cool to have somewhere we can reference stuff like that.
I'll be getting around to it for things like these - don't hew too firmly to the 'million worlds' figure of the Imperium either - but for now Pandora hasn't really given it thought because she's a scatterbrained little girl who isn't a numbers nerd like Guiliman.
 
Still going through this, but I gotta say:
When I realized we're a 40ked Madoka-expy, the first question I had was "are we going to have to deal with a Homura/Homucifer-expy."

Now I've just hit the part where the cruiser is named "Walpurgisnacht", and when I did I went from the question "are we going to have to deal with a Homura/Homucifer-expy" to the statement "oh fuck, we are definitely going to have to deal with a Homura/Homucifer-expy".

Do kinda hope her TTS-parody version will be fun though.

[So... who is she?]
"Uh... she... is a friend."
[Your intonation and her actions are unconvincing of what constitutes "a friend."]
"We were... kinda a thing, I suppose?
[... Oh? Oh! Oooooooooooooo-oh... You know, I suspect that the old me who existed then might have been glad to learn he wouldn't have had to worry about boys. Guess it goes to show what he knows, turns out other girls are no better.]
The only reply the Emperor got back was an unintelligible groan of embarrassment.

EDIT: Huh, was expecting the Homura-expy, Lily, to wind up in an antagonistic role to us. Guess Swordo thought that would be too predictable. This does turn the inevitable TTS-parody scene into a "meet the parent" thing though. Also, we first call Sanguinus "little brother" when?

Oh, that was the last update. Alright, will vote after I've had dinner and the opportunity to weigh the options and opinions.
 
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Which is why we should not fight him. Instead, we must assemble a crack team for a heist.
The point of my post was pointing out that rescuing Isha would cause Nurgle to come directly at us in a direct fight.

Heisting the rescue literally means nothing when it comes to the aftermath, which would be Nurgle directly throwing his wieght at us in manner a CG rarely does expect in the extremely rare situations like the chain of events in Lost Primarch Quest that saw Tzeentch start throwing out Panic buttons. We arent prepared to fight that war. We most likely dont have the Angyls or Devas to defend both our Divine Throne and defend the Radiance lines against that sort of attack.

The issue with the heist however is...it still actually needs a fight anyways. Nurgle is easily the single worst CG to attempt this on, because Nurgle's Garden is every single day the target of such infiltration attempts by Tzeench Daemons. He's basically the anti-heist given a pus-filled form.You need to force him to send a large portion of his forces elsewhere in order to delay his reaction time to get the time to get to Isha unnoticed.

Then realize you now have the entire garden chasing you directly as you run away with Isha in hand. And then realize he will want revenge. And will likely go after our throne.
 
And yes, she does have male Deva, too.

Well, at least they won't have to manifest as girls (unless they want too, natch). Living Saint being a gender/sex-neutral position and all...

[X][LEVIATHAN] The Forge World of Antioch
[X][POSTURE] Call upon your Deva and direct them to the most important battlefields.
 
Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Swordomatic on May 28, 2021 at 1:37 PM, finished with 183 posts and 44 votes.
 
You know I wonder how the Grey Knights reacted to the Deva, particularly the ones who were really aliens? I suspect some of them at least would have been able to tell. Then again their order is used to keeping secrets that would get others burned at the stake.
 
You know I wonder how the Grey Knights reacted to the Deva, particularly the ones who were really aliens? I suspect some of them at least would have been able to tell. Then again their order is used to keeping secrets that would get others burned at the stake.
didn't they already reveal that they know Panda's nature as the Goddess of Sacrifice?
 
Well yeah, but that does not necessarily mean they knew we had alien worshipers. I mean if she were that sort of person she could have just refused the aliens.
the Grey Knights have always been more willing to work with the Xenos then most
there is the odd mention of accords with Eldar and they posses a surprising number of Tesseract Labyrinths, enough that they are probably have a deal with a Necron
 
the Grey Knights have always been more willing to work with the Xenos then most
there is the odd mention of accords with Eldar and they posses a surprising number of Tesseract Labyrinths, enough that they are probably have a deal with a Necron

I know, I'm not exactly expecting 'burn the witch' reactions out of them, just curious what they thought about the fact that Pandora is a goddess of more than just humans and if they will ask her about it.
 
Time for Pandora to perform another fleet action called DYNAMIC ENTRY!!!
 
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