ExNihilo
SPACE!
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- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Given they are back, would you consider doing a tracker about how many we are? Because right now it's Amber Road and Thunder Plateau (projected) and we might need to do WW as well.
Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)
Northern conquests: let them go then diplo-annex them (later) up to the not!Ukraine natural boundaries.
This came up during the Tin Tribes issue; it was established that they would screw us over at some point due to nationalistic revolt, if we kept the conquered lands.
At the same time, the not!Ukraine natural boundaries are important for northern defense--in case our preferred plan, of friendship with Amber Road, doesn't work out for whatever reason. But it isn't time-sensitive, so we should obtain them diplomatically so as to prevent nationalism.
"What happens if the Western Wall fugitives leave" is probably below the game layer. What's almost for sure, however, is that the Western Wall leaders haven't made any friends among the conquered tribes.
Amber Road is still 500-1000 km from not!Ukraine, so we're not meeting up anytime soon no matter what.
Splitting the natural boundaries between a strong ally is certainly possible. There's a good chance we'll have diplo-annexed not!Ukraine before that point, so free movement and connected economies are greater possibilities.
That's fair enough. I have mixed feelings on punting the issue yet again, but you're right that 2 projected Influence is kind of low. Of note: right when they've been stalled in war is probably when they're most interested in negotiations.
It can wait another few years... right?
Narratively, coordinated diplomacy takes work that could otherwise have been used to persuade other people.
I think, anyway. For all we know it's that the Ymaryn patricians hate having to take other people seriously, REE
It's unknown what the resulting form of our diplomacy would be, whether it will involve "free" actions or something else.
Thanks for reminding me to update that.
Added a tracker (which just says 1/3), but the mechanics for our Sacred Warding capacity aren't entirely clear, so can't be tracked all that well.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I believe the situation's different. We cannot UNCLAIM these lands, because it's settled with WW Ymaryn folks doing Ymaryn things, and also they're not recognized sedentary people. What we can do is free the tribefolks who are either farmers or nomads and punished their feudal lords for their adventurism. Give them rights, etc.
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Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
...Ah, screw it.Like the dam!
[X] Plan Chimeraguard
-[X] Authority: Touch The Cow, Do It Now, Thunder Plateau: The Sacred Warding in the Thunder Plateau collapsed when the Black Sheep took the Sacred Herds to add to their own. Although it would be made much more difficult by the nearly nonexistant bureaucracy, you could start rebuilding the Warding in that province. (30%, 5 years, ++Thunder Plateau Loyalty)
-[X] Influence: Seek Western Wall's Surrender: Western Wall has started sending feelers that they may be open to negotiating their surrender. (Narrative%, 1 year, peace terms)
-[X] Influence + Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Highlanders: What have the Highlanders gotten up to in these last thousand years? Do you even care so long as they stay in their hills? (???% 1 Year. Possible -Influence)
-[X] Personal: Catch up on the latest plays and theological debates (-Stress)
Made an alternate plan that doesn't do either learning Amber Road internal factions, or founding a better diplomacy organization in favor of putting two influence on getting Diplomatic Contact with the Highlanders while they're still reeling. Have my own personal doubts on it, but contact with the Highlanders does feel like something where we should strike while the iron is hot, and I want to put 2 Influence on it because I have my doubts about just one being enough.
When my mostly-joke explanation turns out to be right... that's not a particularly good sign.
(But also, we hope, to offer them trade terms, a strategic alliance against anyone who would try to pull the same shit as the Western Wall rebels, and to teach them how to maintain the bountiful farms, if they want.)
...
I've been trying to approval vote for any plan that seems reasonable, so even though I disagree with not setting up the Diplomatic organization:
[X] Plan Oshha
[X] Plan Chimeraguard
Part of the rationale for letting the Tin Tribes go was precisely to provide precedent for letting Western Wall-conquered lands go. With this precedent, we're now in a position to do so.
(But also, we hope, to offer them trade terms, a strategic alliance against anyone who would try to pull the same shit as the Western Wall rebels, and to teach them how to maintain the bountiful farms, if they want.)
...
I've been trying to approval vote for any plan that seems reasonable, so even though I disagree with not setting up the Diplomatic organization:
[X] Plan Oshha
[X] Plan Chimeraguard
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Divinely Glorious Elites was a mistake.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
How did the Ymaryn get that elitist in the first place anyway? I didn't follow the original PoC.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
In PoC the players bought into the Myth of Meritocracy hard. They either didn't realize, or didn't care, that skill is mostly a function of training which is mostly a function of leisure time and cash, which means it creates an oligarchy of those parents rich enough to give access to training. They actively wanted to upgrade their "honor of elites" social stratification trait to a greek style obsession with being the best, and they eventually did. Then they jumped on upgrading the social stratification trait even more, despite wanting to suppress the Patricians at the time.
Edit: In all honesty, AN didn't even need to do the lightning rounds to make the Ymaryn collapse, not after DGE. All that would be needed was to have the Patricians, now politically untouchable, to do stupid short sighted things to augment their own power. Which would then cause collapse.
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- Location
- Minnesota
[X] Plan Chimeraguard
I just don't think of it as clear cut as you make it sound. Some lands are uninhabited, some are in-between, some farmers are actually former nomads. We're also not talking about a single tribe like the Tin Tribes but hundred of different ones.
And to mix it all up. There's not only feudal lords but gentry farmers as well.
There isn't going to be a blanket unconquer Ukraine like we have with the tintribes.
It's going to be a complicated mess, one that required our diplomatic corp's full attention to govern.
Unconquering is easy, so long as you don't mind the complicated mess left behind. That there would be a complicated mess... provides other opportunities.
"Good afternoon. We have convened this Council of Tribal Representatives to discuss the future of this region. The rebel Western Wall unjustly took control of this region without the Melkut's authorization, and against the People's decree. As such, it is the inclination--and initial proposal--of the true Ymaryn to relinquish all claims to this region, and to withdraw to the traditional borders of Western Wall. Those who consider themselves culturally Ymaryn as a result of this conquest would be allowed to immigrate and be granted citizenship, with all the privileges and obligations thereof. We would leave the tribes to your lands, the same as before.
"Now, several representatives have approached us (regardless of whether or not they did really) asking us to stay, to continue the development of this region without the oppression carried out by the rebel leaders. If this Council requests it of us, we would be willing to do that. We are also willing to enter into a Strategic Alliance to guard these territories--up to these defensible regions, here--against a future Khan or polity who may ever want to pull the same stunt as the rebel Western Wall. Your security and the Ymaryn's security are interrelated, and it would be to our mutual benefit to guarantee both.
"Finally, we can also provide the tools and institutional knowledge to maintain the farmlands on your own, if that is your desire.
"The Ymaryn delegation will be available to discuss any clarifications or concerns that council members may have. It is paramount, to us, that the future of this region be chosen through its inhabitants' free will, not dictated by rebels or conquerors or even the Ymaryn ourselves. We are open to further terms and compromise, and will respect your final decision. Thank you."
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Likely result: the tribes will coalesce into three factions: one that wants the Ymaryn to stay, one that doesn't but wants a strategic alliance, and an anti-Ymaryn faction that just wants us to GTFO.
First, we pay off the anti-Ymaryn to "seek their fortunes elsewhere". The more we're able to pay off (and we can pay quite a bit), the less support that bloc will have, until the remainder see which way the wind is blowing, take the remaining money and leave.
So, the ones who are left either want a strategic alliance or for us to stay outright. We grant that alliance (so gain not!Ukraine's natural barriers--if not now then within a few generations).
Depending on roughly which regions want us to stay (it's important that the lands be contiguous and reasonably defensible) we can negotiate a permanent expansion into those lands. We would try to mediate between tribes that don't want us there and tribes that do, perhaps paying the former to move a bit. If there is disputed territory, we just don't go there: the overall strategic alliance is enough.
All this will vary, depending on how strong the three blocs are, and what lands they would offer. The Ymaryn always have the option to GTFO and try again later: in which case the friendlier blocs would blame the anti-Ymaryn bloc and we might enter into individual alliances to support them.
"Good afternoon. We have convened this Council of Tribal Representatives to discuss the future of this region. The rebel Western Wall unjustly took control of this region without the Melkut's authorization, and against the People's decree. As such, it is the inclination--and initial proposal--of the true Ymaryn to relinquish all claims to this region, and to withdraw to the traditional borders of Western Wall. Those who consider themselves culturally Ymaryn as a result of this conquest would be allowed to immigrate and be granted citizenship, with all the privileges and obligations thereof. We would leave the tribes to your lands, the same as before.
"Now, several representatives have approached us (regardless of whether or not they did really) asking us to stay, to continue the development of this region without the oppression carried out by the rebel leaders. If this Council requests it of us, we would be willing to do that. We are also willing to enter into a Strategic Alliance to guard these territories--up to these defensible regions, here--against a future Khan or polity who may ever want to pull the same stunt as the rebel Western Wall. Your security and the Ymaryn's security are interrelated, and it would be to our mutual benefit to guarantee both.
"Finally, we can also provide the tools and institutional knowledge to maintain the farmlands on your own, if that is your desire.
"The Ymaryn delegation will be available to discuss any clarifications or concerns that council members may have. It is paramount, to us, that the future of this region be chosen through its inhabitants' free will, not dictated by rebels or conquerors or even the Ymaryn ourselves. We are open to further terms and compromise, and will respect your final decision. Thank you."
...
...
Likely result: the tribes will coalesce into three factions: one that wants the Ymaryn to stay, one that doesn't but wants a strategic alliance, and an anti-Ymaryn faction that just wants us to GTFO.
First, we pay off the anti-Ymaryn to "seek their fortunes elsewhere". The more we're able to pay off (and we can pay quite a bit), the less support that bloc will have, until the remainder see which way the wind is blowing, take the remaining money and leave.
So, the ones who are left either want a strategic alliance or for us to stay outright. We grant that alliance (so gain not!Ukraine's natural barriers--if not now then within a few generations).
Depending on roughly which regions want us to stay (it's important that the lands be contiguous and reasonably defensible) we can negotiate a permanent expansion into those lands. We would try to mediate between tribes that don't want us there and tribes that do, perhaps paying the former to move a bit. If there is disputed territory, we just don't go there: the overall strategic alliance is enough.
All this will vary, depending on how strong the three blocs are, and what lands they would offer. The Ymaryn always have the option to GTFO and try again later: in which case the friendlier blocs would blame the anti-Ymaryn bloc and we might enter into individual alliances to support them.
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Go back, where? The cities? There's bound to be a lot of settlers out there.
What we could do is negotiate who
That's probably an impractical proposition probably because WW settled everywhere. I believe we'll have to annex swiss cheese and consolidate lands where possible.
On the one hand, telling unauthorized settler-colonists to go fuck themselves is in fact policy, that's how Styrmyr came to exist because we refused to annex all of that stuff way back in the day when all the yeomen wanted new land enough to go invade it. On the other hand Styrmyr is a massive pain in the ass to the point that we might want to reconsider the policy on principle, just to avoid the chance creating another one.
Specially since it is not like Ukraine will get any more unwieldy or hard to defend with the extra land.
Specially since it is not like Ukraine will get any more unwieldy or hard to defend with the extra land.
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That can go on the bucket list of "reasons to work with the Ymaryn": the tribes get food-producing settlers and they don't have to worry about dealing with food-producing settlers; we'll keep the peace.
Swiss-cheese annexation when we're not allowed to lose any land, however, is certainly... bold.
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Edit: furthermore, the friendly settlers would move from the areas that refuse to work with us to the areas that do; the unfriendly settlers would stay behind to cause issues.
Our negotiators can make it seem like a headache not to accept Ymaryn stewards into their lands; while if they do, the Ymaryn would generously mediate the issues, increase food production, and guarantee their safety & rights.
Swiss-cheese annexation when we're not allowed to lose any land, however, is certainly... bold.
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Edit: furthermore, the friendly settlers would move from the areas that refuse to work with us to the areas that do; the unfriendly settlers would stay behind to cause issues.
Our negotiators can make it seem like a headache not to accept Ymaryn stewards into their lands; while if they do, the Ymaryn would generously mediate the issues, increase food production, and guarantee their safety & rights.
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Redshore 1: Why are we loading things individuals into wagons when we could unload wagons of stuff?
Redshore 2: What ya mean?
Redshore 1: It takes forever to load stuff onto a wagon, but instant to move the wagon.
Redshore 2: You mean ship the wagons itself? But it will get bulky.
Redshore 1: Does the wheel need to come with the wagons? Can we move wagons between wheels?
Redshore 2: I don't know....
C o i n t a i n i z e d shipping. We already have wagonways in Redshore and Trelli, and we have an upcoming project for Stonepen and the megaproject to connect to Thunder Plateau. But to truly take advantage of wagonway, we need to standardize boxes.
Redshore 2: What ya mean?
Redshore 1: It takes forever to load stuff onto a wagon, but instant to move the wagon.
Redshore 2: You mean ship the wagons itself? But it will get bulky.
Redshore 1: Does the wheel need to come with the wagons? Can we move wagons between wheels?
Redshore 2: I don't know....
C o i n t a i n i z e d shipping. We already have wagonways in Redshore and Trelli, and we have an upcoming project for Stonepen and the megaproject to connect to Thunder Plateau. But to truly take advantage of wagonway, we need to standardize boxes.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The longshoreman's guild will fight this. Your basically saying most of them should find new work.
They don't exactly have powered machinery to do this. You'll have cranes, but you'll need people to run in hamster wheels, basically. It will still require men to do their toil and it will require men to work hard to process all these incoming ships. Jevon's Paradox might even come into play since the end result is that ships will come and depart faster.
But yeah, I can see why they would fight this. Historically, what we did was give longshoremen big fat retirement and make the rest even more highly paid.
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Containerized shipping doesn't make too much sense before you get away from wind-powered ships. And even once we transition to steam ships, until labour is more valuable than cargo space, it makes sense to spend the extra time to efficiently use every bit of space in our ships, wagons and wagonway carriages.
Containerization is good, but like many things it is good in a particular context. Before that context arrives it is bad.
fasquardon