Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[X] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.

My gut instinct was for introspection, but actually thinking on it, I'd like to see what's up with Xia Lin.

I keep seeing equally good and equally contradictory takes on the heart demon, but I think the one that's looking at our actual insights has things shaped the best way.

Zithinoth said:

You know, framing LQ's heart demon, and the specific situations that aggravate it, as being about trust has always rubbed me the wrong way. A heart demon is a conflict between insights that are in the domain, and looking at it now, that's because the framing of LQ's domain has nothing to do with trust, it's framed in terms of what she wants, her desires.

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This whole post is great and I think it's on the right track.

Yeah at the crux is...that the advanced insight is incomplete of sorts.
It asserts that everyone's desires matter, it does not have any way to sort out conflicts between desires.

This pretty much automatically forces a Heart Demon - its only a matter of time unless you go full hermit, because by ascribing inherent and fundamental value to the desires of others, you have generated an Insight in dispute with itself, which must be resolved by compensation, prioritization, competition or arbitration built into the insight.

Anything else is only treating symptoms.

Zithinoth said:

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So to look at the last vote: LQ knows that CRX wouldn't ever want LQ to put the mission at risk, even (and perhaps especially) if the cost of that is CRX getting hurt. LQ doesn't want to hurt her friends, ever, and has put herself at risk in the past to avoid doing so. So now the choice is between doing what LQ knows CRX would want, and what's best for the mission, or doing what LQ wants and putting the mission at risk to avoid hurting a friend. Trust really has nothing to do with the heart of the dilemma here, it only really shows up in the aftermath: does LQ trust CRX to keep it together, does LQ trust her own ability to beat a cyan spirit at her own game?
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See, this is why i don't understand this Heart Demon thing. Nothing in our insights definitely states that we can not hurt our friends and should under no circumstance do so.
Even if it is LQ's Desire to not hurt her friends, it should not have this reaction. Nothing in the insights makes LQ's desire an Absolute that must be achieved.
I did not understand it back with the Assassin and i still don't get it.

LQ's seems to have a very extreme view on er own insights.

Kirr said:

See, this is why i don't understand this Heart Demon thing. Nothing in our insights definitely states that we can not hurt our friends and should under no circumstance do so.
Even if it is LQ's Desire to not hurt her friends, it should not have this reaction. Nothing in the insights makes LQ's desire an Absolute that must be achieved.
I did not understand it back with the Assassin and i still don't get it.

LQ's seems to have a very extreme view on er own insights.

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No, insights are pretty damned absolute. This early in Green you can go against your insights, it just hurts to do so, and you need to find accomodations for them.

Ling Qi has an advanced insight which declares that the desires of everyone your care about are important. In this case, its abrading against itself - Ling Qi's own desires are causing friction because she matters too, and while you could thread the needle to find a solution where everyone is happy, in a real world this is not always possible.

She needs then to resolve that trap by either establishing how you determine precedence when there are conflicting desires, or define a means to make restitution for when she has to trample on some desires, both of which as in the nature of such things, will breed new complex problems..

veekie said:

No, insights are pretty damned absolute. This early in Green you can go against your insights, it just hurts to do so, and you need to find accomodations for them.

Ling Qi has an advanced insight which declares that the desires of everyone your care about are important. In this case, its abrading against itself - Ling Qi's own desires are causing friction because she matters too, and while you could thread the needle to find a solution where everyone is happy, in a real world this is not always possible.

She needs then to resolve that trap by either establishing how you determine precedence when there are conflicting desires, or define a means to make restitution for when she has to trample on some desires, both of which as in the nature of such things, will breed new complex problems..

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Her Insight : - One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family.

Using this as a blanked for everyone you care about is a bit of a stretch and I would not interpret it in that way. As much as I like CRX, she is LQ's good friend but not someone she wants to build a home or a family with.
If we were in a situation in which her desire would clash with the desire of either her sister, mother or spirits I could see that argument.

But I agree that the Insight is flawed and in need of adjustment. If her Sister or one of her Spirits would have a self harming or dangerous desire she could not do anything against it were this insight to remain as it is.
If the assumption about the insight are correct.

This is so confusing ...

veekie said:

Ling Qi has an advanced insight which declares that the desires of everyone your care about are important. In this case, its abrading against itself - Ling Qi's own desires are causing friction because she matters too, and while you could thread the needle to find a solution where everyone is happy, in a real world this is not always possible.

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She doesn't have Zeqing's insight that desires must be grasped so I don't see the contradiction. So she doesn't get what she wants, that's life. "Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end."

Experiencing pain should not break Ling Qi's Way because she is very aware of pain. She knows the world is unfair and that she can't always get her way. "Branches and trunks bend and sway, but the roots must remain unyielding. Retreat only so far and then no more." but Ling Qi's roots are suffering and isolation. She wishes to grow away from that but she knows that it will always be a part of her. She even consciously made the choice to do so when she picked isolation for her Domain. She also knows what happens when a family's many wills cannot be reconciled: the family falls apart. She doesn't want that to happen, obviously, but she isn't deluded enough to think that it can't.

The insight that helped address our Heart Demon was "Even walking alone, footfalls echo beyond your hearing." That strongly suggests that her understanding of how she relates to those around her is flawed and overly limited.

Edit: You want an experience that would actually test Ling Qi's Way? Give her good times that she hasn't done anything to earn. That's what Qingge is going through and it is severely testing her understanding of the world. Qingge knows on a bone deep level that pursuing her own desires had ruined her life and cost her everything yet her estranged daughter returns out of nowhere bringing her wealth and security beyond her wildest dreams. That's not how the world works, yet she cannot deny her own eyes.

[X] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.

[X] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.

Mmm, I would suggest that the heart demon does not have to be a conflict specifically between insights.

Rather, it can be a failure to fully commit to one's defined Way. I.e. the conflict is between her insights and what she wants - and this is why it may be valuable to look at LQ's drivers more broadly and fundamentally than just looking at her domain insights.

[X] Drifting into the conversation between Gan Guangli and Meng Dan on the Mountain folk, where Hanyi sat listening idly.

veekie said:

Ling Qi has an advanced insight which declares that the desires of everyone your care about are important. In this case, its abrading against itself - Ling Qi's own desires are causing friction because she matters too, and while you could thread the needle to find a solution where everyone is happy, in a real world this is not always possible.

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Ling Qi also knows that while their desires are important, they are not always the most important thing. The insight says desires are important, not must be fulfilled. They should be recognized and taken into account, not pursued to the exclusion of all else, especially other desires."one person's desires can't make a family"

[X] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.

[X] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.
[X] Drifting into the conversation between Gan Guangli and Meng Dan on the Mountain folk, where Hanyi sat listening idly.