Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Well, it's how I read the definition of tutoring we get in the front page:
Getting a minor narrative arc based on specific skill to me seems to be "this is designed to help you get advanced skills".
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I am not worried about getting advanced skills though. I am worried about getting advanced insights for our domain. We need to get at least three for getting to green six. As far as I know advanced skills and advanced insights are not related in any way to each other.
Here is my quote to show that we need three advanced insights.
Advanced skills are amazing and I agree that tutoring is likely the best way to reliable get them. For me though advanced skills are not why I am pursuing the exploration action. I am hoping that if we roll high we can undercut a bigger crunch later on when we need to get those three insights. It's not a high chance, but I feel the chance to help smooth out our cultivation pace by getting some of the requirements ahead of time is something worth chancing.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I agree that getting advanced skills from tutoring makes a lot of sense and is a worthwhile thing to look at. I am however hoping to undercut the crunch to get advanced insights with this exploration action. It does not have a high chance to succeed, but I feel it is worth the shot.
Hmmm, pursuit of trials isn't unreasonable....
Otoh, I'm kind of of the position that "random trial" doesn't really do anything for insights if it's not meaningful to the character. They're character and philosophical ordeals as much as anything, not just physical trials. They need to be woven into our life and character in a profound fashion.
Of course, as we've seen with things like the Bloody Moon trial, such opportunities for character challenge are out there - it's just another obstacle.
I think one thing to suggest here is that we... don't really care about small things from the map at this point. "Low roll = a bunch of spirit stones" is a waste of our time. Something that could be better though is if perhaps instead we could gather clues to gradually search for something bigger? Could both give impetus for more exploration, as well as actual narrative arcs and maybe things like puzzle solving and interesting votes as well.
There could be the possibility for more gameplay in exploration opening more targeted follow-up exploration votes, perhaps with different options, some of which might be better than others... 🤔
edit: ofc we're currently in the middle of a war, so perhaps not entirely the right moment for such distractions
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
I think advanced insights are not a "side quest" thing that would be done via exploring, but are instead the result of multiple narrative arcs converging to a break point.
My impression is that in order to get them Ling Qi has to do a lot of story arcs and get a lot of advanced skills and then when she learns enough and is in an appropriate place, she'll get it. The 'appropriate place' is to me the easiest of those, considering Ling Qi lives in interesting times.
My impression is that in order to get them Ling Qi has to do a lot of story arcs and get a lot of advanced skills and then when she learns enough and is in an appropriate place, she'll get it. The 'appropriate place' is to me the easiest of those, considering Ling Qi lives in interesting times.
Actually, that is a thing tbh. Exploration just doesn't feel wildly appropriate to me at the current time, given current events. It feels frivolous, particularly when we're already not really doing any work. It's one thing to get hung of on trying to get stronger or gain useful utility for the war like modding HDW based on our experiences last month... It's another to blow off our responsibilities to go exploring in pursuit of a fun adventure.
Feels a bit uncool.
Feels a bit uncool.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Hmmm, pursuit of trials isn't unreasonable....
Otoh, I'm kind of of the position that "random trial" doesn't really do anything for insights if it's not meaningful to the character. They're character and philosophical ordeals as much as anything, not just physical trials. They need to be woven into our life and character in a profound fashion.
Of course, as we've seen with things like the Bloody Moon trial, such opportunities for character challenge are out there - it's just another obstacle.
I think one thing to suggest here is that we... don't really care about small things from the map at this point. "Low roll = a bunch of spirit stones" is a waste of our time. Something that could be better though is if perhaps instead we could gather clues to gradually search for something bigger? Could both give impetus for more exploration, as well as actual narrative arcs and maybe things like puzzle solving and interesting votes as well.
There could be the possibility for more gameplay in exploration opening more targeted follow-up exploration votes, perhaps with different options, some of which might be better than others... 🤔
edit: ofc we're currently in the middle of a war, so perhaps not entirely the right moment for such distractions
Both of these are very reasonable and I think I should narrow down my expections. I am not expecting to get an advanced insight from this one exploration role. What I am hoping for is a lead or a start for the next advanced insight arc. I don't expect it to happen next month but getting a head start on it is something I am willing to risk a roll on.
It's true that if we roll low this action could be wasted. But the same can be argued about HDW in that it could just break from our attempts to mod it. To me both leading plans have a risk of wasting the loose AP that has been shaken lose. I would rather try and get a head start on an advance insight trial than mod HDW.
Edit:
I really can't disagree more with this. The goal of exploration is to find something that helps us get stronger. I really don't see how that is frivolous. I don't think that with the war right now exploration will take on the tone of a 'fun adventure'. It's looking for something, anything, that can help us in the war ahead.
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Ok, let's not get carried away here. We know it is not an efficient use of our time. We know it's not serious training.
If we were already spending time doing sect duties, that would be one thing, but we've already decided that they aren't worth our time. Instead of sacrificing cultivation time for this (which we would do if we thought exploration was genuinely important), we're sacrificing our "extra" time. We're saying that running around in the woods looking for an interesting adventure is more important than our duty when there's a war on.
Not a great look.
1337Procrast
Fire Emblem Enjoyer
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan: Whispering on the Wind
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
Refer to how LQ thinks about her friends as her home, and how our domain is tiered access support until at high SL they get bonuses as good as LQ gets, and the already mentioned aspects of how we're not approaching this art mod from a vacuum but have a specific goal in mind that's both in-line with the art's themes and is both largely within LQ's field of expertise (connections, wind, music) and has access to competent external help in Sixiang and Bian Ya.
It's fair to say that HDW is the best art we'd ever want to mod, but considering the realistic next opportunity is like turn 15 when we're G5, it's a rather big question if we'll even bother at that point, since that's 5 extra turns of modded-HDW value we're not getting.
Art modding is inherently about adjusting a poor fit into something more appropriate, and delaying that with HDW means failing to follow up the multiple narrative thrusts that converge here; looking for better perceptiveness, learning to communicate and work with her spirits better, and getting inspired to go for connections->communications in wake of the underground mission where we got to see Bian Ya in action.
As for using "looking for something, anything, that can help us in the war ahead" as an excuse to go explore, that's not how it works. Why do you even think our schedule is as packed as it is? It's chock full of very high value AP that advance our power with levels in Count+ tier combat arts, as well as advancing in social arts in service of our increased involvement in the politics/intrigue world.
This singular free AP was carved out specifically with HDW modding in mind because that's one of those high-value AP options, 1 AP to effectively trade half a useless art for something useful. Explore could provide comparable value, but only on a very high or crit roll, which is a tradeoff that shouldn't be ignored.
And you think going on a fun adventure for a lark is appropriate at this point in time?
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Mmh. One of the arguments for art modding is curiosity about how arts works and desire to know Bian Ya better, though it's more of a Dream+Hidden combo there.
I'm also doubtful we'd sneak a lot on exploration, or that there will be a lot of curiosity, but it's a Yrs arc thing.
Varder
Tired Cultist
- Location
- Hell
The problem is that if we don't do this now, we won't get to do this for many months. At this point, I'm willing to take a slight hit to our reputation to take this chance.
Eh, it's not the type of curiosity that's assosiated with the Hidden Moon, imo. And I agree, sneaking is unlikely but it's still a possibility (sneak into some ruins? sneak away from some green 7 beast lair? who knows).
- Location
- United States of America
That's a terrible rebuttal. First off, it mischaracterized the explore action as "running around in the woods" when that is clearly not the case. We have a map of the Inner Sect given to us and the purpose would be to find resources or trials to make us stronger, similar to regular training albeit much risker and with unknown results. Contrasting that to our duty and saying it's not a great look makes the argument implying that looking for resources or trials to make us stronger while there is a war going on would be perceived poorly.
But, who would care? If it is on our own time and not on a Sect mandated mission or order, it is clear that people at the Sect really don't care if we are doing our own thing as evidenced by the whole three days gone without telling anyone while training LFotWT. We cannot be doing war efforts all the time whenever we have free time, and to say that anything that is not optimized for either the war effort or cultivation is a bad look is a terrible argument because we are already spending time with family (which could have been optimized for cultivation or war efforts) and yet nobody has made any fuss out of it.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Mmmh.
OK, I don't really want to keep HDW, but I've grown fond of the idea of doing art modding to at least have Ling Qi explore the possibilities and learn more about how arts work. Ling Qi's planning on beginning to create a successor for FSS in a few months, so it feels pretty important for her to dip her hand into how arts works in a deeper level before she does so.
That, and I really want a character arc with Bian Ya (and her hopefully cute Kohai, Su Ling).
[X] Plan: Whispering on the Wind
OK, I don't really want to keep HDW, but I've grown fond of the idea of doing art modding to at least have Ling Qi explore the possibilities and learn more about how arts work. Ling Qi's planning on beginning to create a successor for FSS in a few months, so it feels pretty important for her to dip her hand into how arts works in a deeper level before she does so.
That, and I really want a character arc with Bian Ya (and her hopefully cute Kohai, Su Ling).
[X] Plan: Whispering on the Wind
Black Noise
Curious
- Location
- About 1AU from Sol
Hey no bulli, that's pretty much the only remaining valid reasoning to go for it. (plus it's ironic we got 0 grinning xp on the turn we trained wind thief).
I mean, we'll know even if no-one else does.
Honestly, I'm expecting Ling Qi to be pulled up about not doing her duties next month if we go with either of these plans anyway - I'd just rather that be because we got to focused on prioritising cultivation above everything as usual, and not because we put responsibility (to both the Sect and Renxiang) and working on advancement as less important than exploration.
- Location
- United States of America
There has been so far no indication about a minimum amount of work we need to do for the Sect. No instruction on what is expected from us during this war effort has been given and significant arcs where we work in the Sect military and on Cai given responsibilities without spending any actions doing Sect duties or Cai duties. To argue now that we must spend a minimum amount of AP on Sect duties flies in the face of everything that has happened so far and seems completely incongruous with how we have engaged with the war so far. So unless there is something indicating a shift in the policy of how we are expected to engage with the war, that seems to be a completely inaccurate way of viewing our responsibilities to Cai and the Sect.
As for we'll know what we are doing even if no one else will... yes. But that doesn't support any argument that exploration is a bad look.
Honestly, I'm expecting that if there is a minimum amount of AP that should be spent on the war effort, the AP will be locked, just like other AP responsibilities that are locked. Without that, I think any expectation that a minimum amount of AP is expected by the Sect to be spent is severely misplaced.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Ok, lets not get carried away here. Sure it's not an efficient use of our time. Is modding HDW an efficient use of our time? No. And I challenge you to say it is. If we really wanted a communication art we would go on an archive dig for one. It's a throw away experiment to test the waters of something we may never do again. I have not seen anyone beside your last couple posts argue that it's for the war effort. Modding HDW is to satisfy our curiosity. Nothing more.
Blindly tinkering with an art, since we don't have the workshop or experience, is not a great look. Why was sitting around poking an art more important than doing tasks for the sect?
My point with the last little bit is that it's pretty easy to twist something into being "not a great look". I view that argument as pretty baseless. We were gone for three days and barely an eye was blinked. If the sect has a job they want us to do they will tell us to do it. Otherwise our time is our time.
Jeez. Alright you've really lock into the idea that this is going to be a Disney adventure. Do you have a quote from YRS on that exploration roles must be fun larks or are you just blowing smoke?
As far as I understand it this free Ap was opened because we need 15 spiritual actions to get to the next level. That leaves 1 AP out of a normal block of 16. I don't think it was carved out for anything, its just how we have advanced.
If the goal is primarily to mod HDW to something more useful to us then we should wait until we have the art workshop to increase our chance with it. If the goal is to explore how art modding works than it doesn't matter when we mod HDW, either now or in the future.
As for getting HDW into something useful it seems like a pretty big gamble. We don't have communication in our domain, nor do have we focused on communication for our skills. If we don't get that specific keyword, communication, I really struggle to see how HDW will be made useful. And I struggle to see how likely it is we will get that keyword given our domain and skills since as far as I know we don't have that keyword anywhere in our character sheet. You say that we can rely on outside help for the modding, but outside help can only go so far. If the goal is to mod an art to be more in tune with our domain than it likely is pretty personal and I don't know how much help those on the outside can give besides some broad advice.
The "Anything useful" line was not an excuse to go exploring. It was a possible tone that the exploration could fall under rather than "Happy fun time" that Erebeal seems convinced it fall under. Frankly we don't need an excuse to go exploring if people want to go exploring.
I also strongly disagree with your last section. We have no idea how likely it is that HDW will turn into something useful, yet you say it with full confidence that it will. If HDW breaks and becomes worthless than getting even a single red spirit stone would have been a more valuable use of our AP. We have no idea how likely such a thing is. And with the odds concealed you are acting far more confident in success than I am comfortable with.
I think I have been pretty explicit that I want to go trial hunting here. Is that not a valid reason?
You seem to have a pretty set viewpoint of what valid reason there could be. I disagree with them.