Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The fact of the matter is, native space is limited, and setups like this are exceedingly rare; (CRX after post-trauma from Liming puppeting, shortly following a talk with Shenhua before the court[1] and finding out about her sister's birth). With the context Lin Hei gave us and CRX this vulnerable, this is clearly a turning point.

The framing of the vote is putting into question the nature of our relationship with CRX; do we reach out and attempt to integrate her as a friend and potential family or are we gonna keep things professional (in this situation, which will inform similar choices should they arise). Trying to reframe it to be about Zhengui is ignoring the context.

And sure, Zhengui could use more narrative development but trying to force that out of this situation would be a disservice both to him and CRX.

And frankly you should know better. I'd accept argument in favor of keeping a close but professional relationship but this isn't the first time you're making a contrarian vote with flimsy justification (valid but unrelated in this case). If you're doing this for sake of trolling, please stop, or at least make it more obvious.


[1] And that sure looks like Shenhua making a display for her court and a continued lesson for Renxiang, neither of which help her mental state.
Let's just get this out of the way. You have no business questioning my intent or integrity. If you had concerns about my posting habits, you had more appropriate ways to address them than muddying the waters in a way your own post appears to admit. This was flatly disappointing, please don't do it again.

Moving on, I agree with you that narrative space is limited- it's kind of central to my argument. Because of this, your argument isn't logically consistent as a rebuttal to my position. Limited space making it a zero sum game, it can't then also be argued that the vote isn't about Zhengui. It necessarily is as a matter of narrative conservation. The only difference in "framing" is what character is immediately staring us in the face- the consequences and trade-offs are not particularly difficult to work out for all the characters involved. There's honestly also the fact Ling Qi has repeatedly demonstrated a blind spot a mile wide when it comes to Zhengui's own emotional priorities; it shouldn't be at all surprising that vote options tend to elide them from consideration, as phrased.

My argument is the actual event in question, Zhengui's awakening, should by default belong to him as the object of emphasis, and diversion from that should only be under the strongest of motivations. Cai Renxiang's situation does not, now, meet that standard for me. Before you go off about my opinion of her, that actually tells you jack squat about it, except that I don't think getting closer to her overrides the issues with Zhengui right this moment. And his situation's pretty well just as "exceedingly rare" as her's is; he is just waking up after an exhaustion and trauma induced sleep that followed immediately seeing the person he loves most in the world almost die, having forcibly broken through to heroically and triumphantly defend the village in part to make her proud, and then failed (again!) to protect her.

They're both in vulnerable states, and I have no interest in denying that about Cai Renxiang. My position remains that we have an existing obligation to Zhengui that we would be neglecting with the effort to rope Cai Renxiang into the mess. My justification is in no way flimsy, you simply don't recognize me looking past two feet in front of us. This was a gap of perspective that could have been approached with questions rather than accusations.

@yrsillar now that it's not just a dozen odd people expressing confusion at the point of this vote, but apparently the inherent legitimacy of my presence in the thread getting called into question, would you mind elaborating on what we're doing here? What are Ling Qi's priorities in either case? What's she thinking? Frankly, what are we trading away to court Cai Renxiang at the moment? My guess is you intended Family to carry weight with the players and naturally get unpacked out to mean "Zhengui is a very good boy and precious to me, protecc him forever", but in practice it's treated like a four-letter word by voters whenever it seems "too selfish".


You know, Renxiang seeing us interact with Zhengui might just influence her reactions to Liming.

Not sure if it will be a good or bad influence though, but our closeness to our spirits are certainly unique enough to be noted by Xuilan since we arent treating them as just tools, but closer to the Bai and the like. And Meizhen doesnt really show overt affection to Cui to catch the eye of other people.
There's some interesting things to ponder here, actually. Back during the Inner Sect advancement tournament, Cai Renxiang believes the structure of the preliminary round she found herself in was meant to be a lesson to her on the merit of sheer dominating might, specifically in the context of offensive capability. Let's assume this is true. A handful of months after Cai Shenhua was on hand for an in person evaluation of her daughter, Cai Renxiang is given the saber Cifeng. We now see Cifeng used as something of a safety blanket, a crutch, against the more uncomfortable aspects of Liming's wearing. An instrument of aggression and violence is now something she relies on for comfort in circumstances she cannot, as a matter of her family and station, escape.

In a purely literal sense, it's just a saber spirit being convenient at smacking her overly gripping dress spirit. In a broader sense, it's easy to see how Cai Shenhua intended to influence what of her toolset Cai Renxiang is inclined to reach for without hesitation.

Edit: re-added a sentence I edited out off the end of the second paragraph by accident
 
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[X] Turned away. She had to see to her family first and foremost. Besides, she was sure that Cai Renxiang was too busy to spend the day on something frivolous
 
[X] Invited Renxiang to come out with her. Meizhen would be there later as well, so what was one more for the gathering?
 
[X] Turned away. She had to see to her family first and foremost. Besides, she was sure that Cai Renxiang was too busy to spend the day on something frivolous
 
Let's just get this out of the way. You have no business questioning my intent or integrity. If you had concerns about my posting habits, you had more appropriate ways to address them than muddying the waters in a way your own post appears to admit. This was flatly disappointing, please don't do it again.

Moving on, I agree with you that narrative space is limited- it's kind of central to my argument. Because of this, your argument isn't logically consistent as a rebuttal to my position. Limited space making it a zero sum game, it can't then also be argued that the vote isn't about Zhengui. It necessarily is as a matter of narrative conservation. The only difference in "framing" is what character is immediately staring us in the face- the consequences and trade-offs are not particularly difficult to work out for all the characters involved. There's honestly also the fact Ling Qi has repeatedly demonstrated a blind spot a mile wide when it comes to Zhengui's own emotional priorities; it shouldn't be at all surprising that vote options tend to elide them from consideration, as phrased.

My argument is the actual event in question, Zhengui's awakening, should by default belong to him as the object of emphasis, and diversion from that should only be under the strongest of motivations. Cai Renxiang's situation does not, now, meet that standard for me. Before you go off about my opinion of her, that actually tells you jack squat about it, except that I don't think getting closer to her overrides the issues with Zhengui right this moment. And his situation's pretty well just as "exceedingly rare" as her's is; he is just waking up after an exhaustion and trauma induced sleep that followed immediately seeing the person he loves most in the world almost die, having forcibly broken through to heroically and triumphantly defend the village in part to make her proud, and then failed (again!) to protect her.

They're both in vulnerable states, and I have no interest in denying that about Cai Renxiang. My position remains that we have an existing obligation to Zhengui that we would be neglecting with the effort to rope Cai Renxiang into the mess. My justification is in no way flimsy, you simply don't recognize me looking past two feet in front of us. This was a gap of perspective that could have been approached with questions rather than accusations.

@yrsillar now that it's not just a dozen odd people expressing confusion at the point of this vote, but apparently the inherent legitimacy of my presence in the thread getting called into question, would you mind elaborating on what we're doing here? What are Ling Qi's priorities in either case? What's she thinking? Frankly, what are we trading away to court Cai Renxiang at the moment? My guess is you intended Family to carry weight with the players and naturally get unpacked out to mean "Zhengui is a very good boy and precious to me, protecc him forever", but in practice it's treated like a four-letter word by voters whenever it seems "too selfish".



There's some interesting things to ponder here, actually. Back during the Inner Sect advancement tournament, Cai Renxiang believes the structure of the preliminary round she found herself in was meant to be a lesson to her on the merit of sheer dominating might, specifically in the context of offensive capability. Let's assume this is true. A handful of months after Cai Shenhua was on hand for an in person evaluation of her daughter, Cai Renxiang is given the saber Cifeng. We now see Cifeng used as something of a safety blanket, a crutch, against the more uncomfortable aspects of Liming's wearing. An instrument of aggression and violence is now something she relies on for comfort in circumstances she cannot, as a matter of her family and station, escape.

In a purely literal sense, it's just a saber spirit being convenient at smacking her overly gripping dress spirit. In a broader sense, it's easy to see how Cai Shenhua intended to influence what of her toolset Cai Renxiang is inclined to reach for without hesitation.

Edit: re-added a sentence I edited out off the end of the second paragraph by accident
Right, few things (consider this a public apology for the insinuation of ill intent):
  • It's no excuse but I've been operating on low sleep so I wasn't (still aren't) operating at full mental capacity.
  • Left unsaid but should've been added to my post due to the above "if you intent isn't trolling, then explain more because your stance is unclear and appears to come from bad or weak premises" (or something along those lines, had a reasonable sounding phrasing while I was failing to fall asleep but that was 10 hours ago).
  • While I don't question your integrity (and have even less reason to now), I was not sure about your reason to vote and argue as you did, giving decent odds of it being something like a protest vote over poor handling of Zhengui's narrative arc. That is no longer the case and your intent is made clear, and going forward I'll likely assume you're being serious.

That hopefully settled, thoughts and answers to some of the points raised[1]:
  • Mostly agree to the second paragraph, though it's somewhat complicated by the vote structure and framing:
    • Inviting can be seen as:
      • Reaching out to a clearly distressed CRX, indicating her intrusion would be no imposition, and by context of the other choice opening the door to considering her family in the nebulous future.
      • Likely at narrative cost to Zhengui (though I'd argue it's still workable if in the moment LQ ignores her liege, though this is very much a matter of vote preference and yrs intention)
      • ...Possibly as a consequence of LQ having a blind spot to Zhengui, taking him for granted etc. I'd argue this is unlikely given the AM insight, and that as far as I remember we didn't actually get that many chances to engage with Zhengui's emotional state and responses to surrounding events. If you list a few where it was an option and we didn't have a clearly superior alternative (for whatever reason) I'll concede this point and agree it makes it more of an urgent issue to rectify.
      • Not inviting (ignoring the context of the other vote) weakly means we prefer the gathering be kept to LQ and Zhengui (and later Meizhen) alone.
    • Turning away can be seen as:
      • At least temporarily making clear that CRX does not belong as family, potential or therwise.
      • By extention and at that cost, putting narrative emphasis on Zhengui as a top priority (which I think is your core reason for voting, which makes it valid enough).
      • Ignoring CRX's distress despite the narrative bait laid out (which can be the correct move btw, since it's not guaranteed CRX accepts or it doesn't otherwise backfire, but it is definitely a choice with consequences either way).
      • Not really a point but it's annoying that we have LQ think "family first" and "CRX would be too busy for something frivolous" the same choice. Not sure if there's something here or if it's yrs being imperfect (which is allowed but still annoying).
      • Not turning away (ignoring the context of the other vote) carries the aforementioned chance to see Cai as someone that potentially fits in with (or at least not imposes on) what LQ sees as family.
  • In the 3d paragraph, your sentiment is valid and I agree on the point about Zhengui's narrative setup being equally rare, however I'll add "Turned Away" is phrased in a way that carries definite negative impact on Cai's arc, wheras "invite", with the implication CRX won't impose, doesn't necessarily lead to LQ not giving Zhengui his deserved attention (though obviously there will be less narrative room for it with Cai there). It would be a fair (as a quest vote, mean but fair) choice between the two, but I don't think this is the intention on yrs' part.
  • Point above should make it clear why I'm disagreeing with you on the 4th paragraph (besides me making an ass of myself on which we're both in agreement on).

[1](lists are easier to think about than paragraphs even though they're uglier)
 
[X] Invited Renxiang to come out with her. Meizhen would be there later as well, so what was one more for the gathering?

*This guy didn't want to vote*
 
Some minor spaghetti since addressing things coherently is otherwise difficult. Forgive me, forum gods.

Reaching out to a clearly distressed CRX, indicating her intrusion would be no imposition, and by context of the other choice opening the door to considering her family in the nebulous future.
This clause, which you repeat in principle elsewhere, strikes me as something Ling Qi can't, or shouldn't, really be the arbiter of. To do so is to take for granted the feelings of others involved. Namely, Zhengui. Ling Qi shouldn't just suppose that no imposition is possible- it's imposing her own aims and goals on the situation selfishly, which is core to my objection.

...Possibly as a consequence of LQ having a blind spot to Zhengui, taking him for granted etc. I'd argue this is unlikely given the AM insight, and that as far as I remember we didn't actually get that many chances to engage with Zhengui's emotional state and responses to surrounding events. If you list a few where it was an option and we didn't have a clearly superior alternative (for whatever reason) I'll concede this point and agree it makes it more of an urgent issue to rectify.
I think you have this slightly backwards. The best evidence for the blind spot is the fact there has not, in fact, been many chances to engage with Zhengui's emotional state, or him at all in unambiguous or unalloyed contexts. That's what makes the spot blind. As for AM, the whole "mother" thing and Ling Qi's continued handling of it is in resolute opposition to the very fabric of the insight. There's snarls and tangles in their relationship, but she refuses to acknowledge them.

In the 3d paragraph, your sentiment is valid and I agree on the point about Zhengui's narrative setup being equally rare, however I'll add "Turned Away" is phrased in a way that carries definite negative impact on Cai's arc, wheras "invite", with the implication CRX won't impose, doesn't necessarily lead to LQ not giving Zhengui his deserved attention (though obviously there will be less narrative room for it with Cai there). It would be a fair (as a quest vote, mean but fair) choice between the two, but I don't think this is the intention on yrs' part.
Point of order, it's not Ling Qi "turning CRX away", it's literally Ling Qi physically turning away from her brief glance backwards as she's making her exit. I'd liken the options to invite vs turn a blind eye, rather than a rebuke. She's not condemning Cai Renxiang, she's ignoring or deprioritizing her.
 
Some minor spaghetti since addressing things coherently is otherwise difficult. Forgive me, forum gods.


This clause, which you repeat in principle elsewhere, strikes me as something Ling Qi can't, or shouldn't, really be the arbiter of. To do so is to take for granted the feelings of others involved. Namely, Zhengui. Ling Qi shouldn't just suppose that no imposition is possible- it's imposing her own aims and goals on the situation selfishly, which is core to my objection.


I think you have this slightly backwards. The best evidence for the blind spot is the fact there has not, in fact, been many chances to engage with Zhengui's emotional state, or him at all in unambiguous or unalloyed contexts. That's what makes the spot blind. As for AM, the whole "mother" thing and Ling Qi's continued handling of it is in resolute opposition to the very fabric of the insight. There's snarls and tangles in their relationship, but she refuses to acknowledge them.


Point of order, it's not Ling Qi "turning CRX away", it's literally Ling Qi physically turning away from her brief glance backwards as she's making her exit. I'd liken the options to invite vs turn a blind eye, rather than a rebuke. She's not condemning Cai Renxiang, she's ignoring or deprioritizing her.
Agree that potential imposition on Zhengui is a definite cost. He'll probably forgive her but it doesn't make it less real.

Generally my sentiment is that problems like a potential blind spot should be self-inflicted rather than (mostly?) forced by narrative. The exception in this instance is if there's a blind spot because LQ refuses to address she's more of a mother than a sister to Zhengui, though in that case I'm not sure what makes this event privileged as a thread to pull on when it was as non-interactive as LQ's orientation.

I am aware it's LQ turning away, but you can't deny it's both physical and metaphorical when CRX so clearly could use some support. The choice is effectively turning away in discomfort from someone instead of going to hug them, especially with the potentially fishy reasoning for it.
 
[X] Invited Renxiang to come out with her. Meizhen would be there later as well, so what was one more for the gathering?

Ultimately, I disagree with the proposition that one of these choices means less screentime with Zhengui, and I also want Zhengui to interact with a wider cast of characters.
 
Agree that potential imposition on Zhengui is a definite cost. He'll probably forgive her but it doesn't make it less real.

Generally my sentiment is that problems like a potential blind spot should be self-inflicted rather than (mostly?) forced by narrative. The exception in this instance is if there's a blind spot because LQ refuses to address she's more of a mother than a sister to Zhengui, though in that case I'm not sure what makes this event privileged as a thread to pull on when it was as non-interactive as LQ's orientation.

I am aware it's LQ turning away, but you can't deny it's both physical and metaphorical when CRX so clearly could use some support. The choice is effectively turning away in discomfort from someone instead of going to hug them, especially with the potentially fishy reasoning for it.
Well, whether it should be or not, it has been. I don't think the mother thing is actually driving the general blind spot, it's just a parallel one which, because relationship are gross and goopy, is all gooped together with it partially. What sets this event apart is it's... actually goddamned focused on Zhengui for once! And yes, I'm aware that the focus on Zhengui only manages to exist after clawing through a morass of another character's traumas, but fuck I'll take it. About time something happens that is about and for Zhengui rather than him being a cynical tool or about cynically using someone else as a tool for powering him up. This is just... him. Zhengui and his issues. Issues we've been exacerbating and appear to have reached something of a pincale moment wherein we might harvest some small measure of mutual understanding. The only other time that's come close while he's been able to speak was when he woke up from his realm breakthrough hibernation and we had the event with the family, and even then Hanyi(understandably, the poor girl) sucked away most of his thunder, and the overarching narrative theme was introducing our mortal family to the spiritual aspects of our life.

But, ya know, maybe it was self-inflicted. Back in FoD, we passed on almost all of Zhengui's social votes. If it wasn't directly making him stronger and doubling up as talking to a boy, we didn't take it. There was one with Hanyi we didn't take, there was one with Heizui(sp?) we didn't take, there was the followup to his time in Heizui's site we didn't take. We passively chose to neglect paying any mind to Zhengui's social universe. Nothing that was important to Zhengui ever got prioritized.

It's no wonder he's dedicated himself to chasing after us so hard. And increasingly vexing we've lacked the tools to even start inquiries in ways to carry him on our winds. Metaphorically. Mostly.
 
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Well there is other, materialistic reason why we should invite CRX. The faster we have SL 4 with her, the less chances that we will suffer next time we fight back to back with her. And there is no if, this time will come now that we are at war.
 
I'm fairly sure Zhengui is fine, he has real reasons to be upset because Ling Qi keeps getting into fights where he's literally useless, and he's getting a complex about inadequacy. Too slow, too little damage, too little range.

He's feeling like end of year 1 Xiulan, basically, he knows he's strong, but he's not strong where it matters. Every time he does great, Ling Qi manages to go beyond and get hurt again.
I don't think just putting a lot of attention on him would fix the very real issues he has from being perpendicular to our way of combat.
 
[X] Turned away. She had to see to her family first and foremost. Besides, she was sure that Cai Renxiang was too busy to spend the day on something frivolous

Changing my vote. I had an idea in my head that even with CRX there Ling Qi wouldn't let that detract from her focus on Zhengui too much, but in hindsight that's more wishful thinking. Plus, as Abeo has mentioned, I kinda forgot to take Zhengui's own feelings into account. Meizhen/Cui is one thing, CRX isn't someone he's even been introduced to IIRC.
 
[X] Turned away. She had to see to her family first and foremost. Besides, she was sure that Cai Renxiang was too busy to spend the day on something frivolous

I don't think this is quite the rebuke of closeness with Renxiang as some make it out to be. It's just saying not now. It even ends with taking Renxiang's perspective into account, which conforms with a lesson of Ling Qi's domain that applies to family. But that's not my main concern with this vote.

My overwhelming concern is with the Zhengui narrative. We have to remember he suffered an incredibly traumatic event directly on the heels of his moment of triumph. It's very important to have a private word with him to get ahead of things before it turns into another lingering node of alienation between them that goes unaddressed.

It's true that Meizhen will be there regardless, but later. There's room for a private talk. With us dragging along Renxiang, there basically isn't. Talk yes, private no.

The issue for me is not whether we bond with Renxiang, it's where we fit things in the narrative. This entire war arc is full of ties to Renxiang, especially with our assigned missions. The narrative is inherently cooperative with her in particular and almost can't fail to have future opportunities, and easily ones of more significance than this which has no particular connection to the girl whatsoever. Moments of true relevance to Zhengui and Ling Qi's relationship are fleeting, and we need to size the atmosphere where we find it.

Zhengui is my priority and I don't want distractions with it. I'm tired of it being a problem, and it's even a barrier to other relationships, like Xuan Shi. We made a choice to prioritize our mission above fighting by his side before; now that there's no pressing duty, we owe him our undivided attention. It is inappropriate to appropriate this moment for the benefit of a tentative and speculative connection with our liege.


I don't see any reason to assume his motivation was all that much more complicated than ours was when we first met her. She's comparatively isolated at social events, and that can be perceived as an "in". Makes sense for him given how little traction he had with peer provincial scions.
....this vote is literally about "CRX looks haggard and overworked like she was after dealing with her mother at the tournament thanks to trauma" and we can either "bring her along to meet the family because she looks like she needs some positive social interaction to help" or "naaaah she's obviously not interested in frivolous things like fun with our family members".

The meta context of these two options is pretty damn obvious, quit the twisty logic justifications.
 
....this vote is literally about "CRX looks haggard and overworked like she was after dealing with her mother at the tournament thanks to trauma" and we can either "bring her along to meet the family because she looks like she needs some positive social interaction to help" or "naaaah she's obviously not interested in frivolous things like fun with our family members".

The meta context of these two options is pretty damn obvious, quit the twisty logic justifications.
No. I want you to imagine how the update unfolds in the case that Ling Qi turns away and proceeds to Zhengui's awakening. What happens in this scene? Now, I want you to contrast this with the expected events of choosing to invite Cai Renxiang. In this contrast, does the latter contain all the same material, except also more because Cai Renxiang is there? If so, you're wrong.

There is a difference between these votes. The vote literally can't just be about Cai Renxiang, because one choice does not include her. The update will have meaning absent Cai Renxiang's presence. It will have substance. It will have Zhengui(he's present in both but this flowed well).

Stop acting like i'm a crazy person because I think there's actual differences between the two choices and that one isn't flatly superior, or that the only difference is whether we're mean to Renxiang or not. The actual event taking place is simply bigger than Renxiang- I don't mean that to diminish her or her importance, I mean it in the completely literal sense that there is more... stuff than the one character in the subsequent update.
 
No. I want you to imagine how the update unfolds in the case that Ling Qi turns away and proceeds to Zhengui's awakening. What happens in this scene? Now, I want you to contrast this with the expected events of choosing to invite Cai Renxiang. In this contrast, does the latter contain all the same material, except also more because Cai Renxiang is there? If so, you're wrong.

There is a difference between these votes. The vote literally can't just be about Cai Renxiang, because one choice does not include her. The update will have meaning absent Cai Renxiang's presence. It will have substance. It will have Zhengui(he's present in both but this flowed well).

Stop acting like i'm a crazy person because I think there's actual differences between the two choices and that one isn't flatly superior, or that the only difference is whether we're mean to Renxiang or not. The actual event taking place is simply bigger than Renxiang- I don't mean that to diminish her or her importance, I mean it in the completely literal sense that there is more... stuff than the one character in the subsequent update.

"invite her to our family gathering or not" is what the vote is about.
 
[X] Invited Renxiang to come out with her. Meizhen would be there later as well, so what was one more for the gathering?
 
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