Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
That detail makes it stand out so much more than other similar magical library concepts, though I can imagine some would hate it.
I do hate it. It's just one more example of 'rationality' making a hegemonic claim to truth. When you call your library "Infinite" then it better be actually infinite and all-inclusive. Unless the story goes into what makes that library wrong (which I doubt since IIRC WtC is a story by as Western a rationality worshipper as there is) then I'm going to hate that library. What makes a book a book or makes a work published isn't something that can be defined once and then left aside forever and saying that you can do that is culture-centric to the extreme and it's myopic to claim otherwise. You can't mathematically solve culture or language.
 
[X] Historical Plays, works of wit and satire, (Speech, Government,)

I like to imagine LQ picked up the books dreading it with her experience with learning Law then unexpectedly finding she loves satire.

Cue all her friends getting really concerned when she later reads a book of her own free will.

"Xuan Shi what DID YOU DO!?"
 
Sure, but Talent 9 are not born that way, really. If they are, they are the equivalent of 'the world has never before seen this'.

Now, take your Ji Rong example. He was around the same place we were week 12 (We had more Qi and more meridians opened, he had better fighting stats and one of his art had one more level). This means he lost 15% of the 40 weeks left to him after that. Then Ling Qi had 5 weeks of Elder tutoring, and 8 weeks of inner sect disciple tutoring, and 12~ weeks of Zeqing tutoring, found pills a ducal couldn't easily get for themselves, found extremely potent cultivation sites while Ji Rong was unable to have any until week 38 or so, got White Room from CRX, got 2 spirits (which increases cultivation speed). That's without going into our arts lucky finds.

Remainder than in the old system, Elder/Inner sect tutoring gave +1 action, so 20% increase in cultivation speed even before we take dice into actions.

Basically, Talent 7 would need to give much, much more than 2% increase in speed overall (given the weeks he lost) for Ji Rong to be even competitive at all even after we adjust for "Ji Rong is a duelist". Hence, the 'luck' aspect, or "Talent does more than it is shown".

Obviously there is the 'easier' solution of "Ji Rong was doing closed door cultivation every
weeks and so had 6 actions to our 5 in non-tutoring weeks". Don't be lazy Ling Qi :(
It seems the discussion is moving on to the balance between talent and resources. You have good points about how a talent 6 with lots of resources and six more weeks can best a talent 7 with no resources at all. If the goal was to have talent 7s always out-compete talent 6s even with a resource vacuum and tons of time lost, then yeah, talent math isn't *quite* that dominant.

But I don't know why we would assume Ji Rong (or any other talent 5+ cultivator) isn't also a serious cultivator that does things like get tutoring, gather stones, acquire and use pills, and close door cultivate (and we already know he acquired his own noble backing). Especially when Sun Liling explicitly decided to out-cultivate the competition to win at the tournament.

Just to keep the slight gap Ling Qi now has, she must constantly manage to acquire resources worth 17% more cultivation than what Ji Rong acquires and thanks to diminishing returns this means she needs far more than just "17% more resources that Ji Rong". Every week she doesn't manage to get 17% more dice than Ji Rong is a week where Ji Rong is surpassing Ling Q.

That's a really tall order and if Ling Qi does ever beat Ji Rong again, I will definitely be wondering how he managed to fail so hard at acquiring resources ("did he lose Sun Liling's support? Does he just *hate* teachers? Is he too dumb to realize acquiring resources is necessary? Is he actually incredibly lazy?"). Because thanks to talent and diminishing returns, Ji Rong doesn't need to acquire as many resources as Ling Qi, he just needs to not completely fail at it.

It's a good place for the story to be in that there is something that makes it doubtful that the protagonist can beat the foil, I just think that if talent were any more dominant it would become unbelievable for Ling Qi to ever win. I think talent is in a good and very powerful place as it currently stands and any more powerful would be bad, and I think "resources are just as powerful" isn't an argument for why talent should be stronger (because higher talent people will also be acquiring and using resources).
 
That's a really tall order and if Ling Qi does ever beat Ji Rong again, I will definitely be wondering how he managed to fail so hard at acquiring resources ("did he lose Sun Liling's support? Does he just *hate* teachers? Is he too dumb to realize acquiring resources is necessary? Is he actually incredibly lazy?"). Because thanks to talent and diminishing returns, Ji Rong doesn't need to acquire as many resources as Ling Qi, he just needs to not completely fail at it.
One point of note is that Yrs decided to drop us the mirror of unreasonable-amounts-of-wealth. Thanks to that, we can easily afford to burn an extra GSS every week from our savings, and a single GSS is almost worth an action a week.
 
It seems the discussion is moving on to the balance between talent and resources. You have good points about how a talent 6 with lots of resources and six more weeks can best a talent 7 with no resources at all. If the goal was to have talent 7s always out-compete talent 6s even with a resource vacuum and tons of time lost, then yeah, talent math isn't *quite* that dominant.

But I don't know why we would assume Ji Rong (or any other talent 5+ cultivator) isn't also a serious cultivator that does things like get tutoring, gather stones, acquire and use pills, and close door cultivate (and we already know he acquired his own noble backing). Especially when Sun Liling explicitly decided to out-cultivate the competition to win at the tournament.

Just to keep the slight gap Ling Qi now has, she must constantly manage to acquire resources worth 17% more cultivation than what Ji Rong acquires and thanks to diminishing returns this means she needs far more than just "17% more resources that Ji Rong". Every week she doesn't manage to get 17% more dice than Ji Rong is a week where Ji Rong is surpassing Ling Q.

That's a really tall order and if Ling Qi does ever beat Ji Rong again, I will definitely be wondering how he managed to fail so hard at acquiring resources ("did he lose Sun Liling's support? Does he just *hate* teachers? Is he too dumb to realize acquiring resources is necessary? Is he actually incredibly lazy?"). Because thanks to talent and diminishing returns, Ji Rong doesn't need to acquire as many resources as Ling Qi, he just needs to not completely fail at it.

It's a good place for the story to be in that there is something that makes it doubtful that the protagonist can beat the foil, I just think that if talent were any more dominant it would become unbelievable for Ling Qi to ever win. I think talent is in a good and very powerful place as it currently stands and any more powerful would be bad, and I think "resources are just as powerful" isn't an argument for why talent should be stronger (because higher talent people will also be acquiring and using resources).
One point of note is that Yrs decided to drop us the mirror of unreasonable-amounts-of-wealth. Thanks to that, we can easily afford to burn an extra GSS every week from our savings, and a single GSS is almost worth an action a week.
To make a more explicit example, Sect gives 2GSS 40YSS/ month at our rank (and 1GSS 40YSS at Ji Rong's rank). CRX gives us another 3 GSS. EPC gives us another 4 virtual GSS. This means that we currently get an average of 9GSS 40YSS/turn (excluding special windfalls/etc). If we were to use YSS only for cultivation, we would have a total of Talent 6 + 45 YSS + Pills 10? + Stealth 6 = 67 dice base for cultivation (doesn't count things like EPC at it doesn't apply to everything).

By spending 8GSS/turns, we are instead having Talent 6 + YSS25 + GSS 120 + Pills 10? + Stealth 6 = 167 dice base for cultivation. That's a 250% increase.

Obviously, the jump from 8GSS/turn to 12GSS/Turn will be smaller, but it's pretty big too, and at that point Sun Liling would need to give a lot to Ji Rong for him to be able to keep up, though I believe AG would be giving him virtual GSS. That's also without going into all the dice and bonus successes EPC gives (AG probably is really good too).

Basically, it's normal that someone more talented is more talented, but as is having a shit ton of ressource is its own strength that shouldn't be under estimated.
 
[X] Songs and poems of peoples and ways of life long gone (Spirit Ken, Beast handling)
[X] Historical Plays, works of wit and satire, (Speech, Government,)
 
Just to keep the slight gap Ling Qi now has, she must constantly manage to acquire resources worth 17% more cultivation than what Ji Rong acquires and thanks to diminishing returns this means she needs far more than just "17% more resources that Ji Rong". Every week she doesn't manage to get 17% more dice than Ji Rong is a week where Ji Rong is surpassing Ling Q.

That's a really tall order and if Ling Qi does ever beat Ji Rong again, I will definitely be wondering how he managed to fail so hard at acquiring resources ("did he lose Sun Liling's support? Does he just *hate* teachers? Is he too dumb to realize acquiring resources is necessary? Is he actually incredibly lazy?"). Because thanks to talent and diminishing returns, Ji Rong doesn't need to acquire as many resources as Ling Qi, he just needs to not completely fail at it.

It's a good place for the story to be in that there is something that makes it doubtful that the protagonist can beat the foil, I just think that if talent were any more dominant it would become unbelievable for Ling Qi to ever win. I think talent is in a good and very powerful place as it currently stands and any more powerful would be bad, and I think "resources are just as powerful" isn't an argument for why talent should be stronger (because higher talent people will also be acquiring and using resources).

Something to remember: Ji Rong was ahead of us when we defeated him. He was Green 1, Bronze 2, as of the Tournament. Not all that far ahead, but ahead. And he'll probably stay that way, since the only character fully simulated is Ling Qi.

We won for the following reasons:
-Information Warfare. He didn't know we had a defensive Art as good as TRF, which allowed us to withstand his opening attacks. Take damage from them, yes, but also not lose to them.
-Resource Use. His domain weapon refreshed his Qi reserves, bringing him back up to full at the cost of expending it. Before that point it seemed to be an even match with our own domain weapon. If his domain weapon centered on boosting his attacks, we may well have lost even with TRF backing us up.

The Ling Qi/Ji Rong matchup will likely revolve around other things than 'resources spent' or 'talent'. It'll be Art Configuration, Domain Strength, equipment choices (Armor, Domain Weapon, other permanent talismans, one-use talismans), Spirit Companions, terrain, what exactly the matchup involves, etc.

And any future match-up between LQ and JR may well not be a fight at all.
 
Mmm, yeah, Ji Rong's in a funny place vs Ling Qi, because his build is one that's good against almost everyone else in 1v1 combat, but Ling Qi has a high enough HP to make his stupid level of penetration... Not moot, but not decisive, and then she turns it into a four on one with cascading buff spirals and then he loses.

Essentially, our build is one that his build has serious issues fighting, and if he's correcting that, he's also not strengthening his core abilities. This has gotten even worse now that Zhengui can actively punish him for ignoring him like what happened in the tournament fight.
 
Mmm, yeah, Ji Rong's in a funny place vs Ling Qi, because his build is one that's good against almost everyone else in 1v1 combat, but Ling Qi has a high enough HP to make his stupid level of penetration... Not moot, but not decisive, and then she turns it into a four on one with cascading buff spirals and then he loses.

Essentially, our build is one that his build has serious issues fighting, and if he's correcting that, he's also not strengthening his core abilities. This has gotten even worse now that Zhengui can actively punish him for ignoring him like what happened in the tournament fight.
Well...
-outdated
Green 1/Bronze 2
Health B, Qi B25
Speed C20, Initiative B15
C. Perc. C10
Phys Def
Avoid: B, Armor C10
Spir Def
Avoid C15, Armor D15
Phys Off
Hit B20, Pen A


Primary Elements: Heaven
Secondary Elements: Wind
As said, this is outdated, but at the time both Ji Rong's perception and his spiritual defence was really poor. Now, he likely is correcting this, but as said this means he is spending less time strengthening his core abilities, and he also lacks spirits when we have 3.

As a remainder, perception is key against Ling Qi not only for stealth, but because both FVM and PLR are big on perception filters. If we get arts like MNO/DLS, I am giving Ji Rong low odds on bypassing either IPF or EDD, for example. Spiritual Defence being important against Ling Qi is obvious.
 
Section 1: Narrative shouldn't be determined purely by cultivation mechanics
Something to remember: Ji Rong was ahead of us when we defeated him. He was Green 1, Bronze 2, as of the Tournament. Not all that far ahead, but ahead. And he'll probably stay that way, since the only character fully simulated is Ling Qi.
Agreed. I didn't mean anything against either of those points while discussing cultivation speeds, but I was also trying to be somewhat concise and wanted to avoid adding little qualifying phrases everywhere like "ignoring narrative".

We won for the following reasons:
...
The Ling Qi/Ji Rong matchup will likely revolve around other things
These are fantastic for the story and tend to make for better reading than "Ling Qi out-cultivated him". I hope all future conflicts are similarly interesting.

But at the same time, these narrative reasons are also somewhat divorced from mechanic discussions about whether talent is powerful enough or whether it's mechanically believable that either of them managed to keep pace with the other (so that the narrative could reasonably allow either to win without ignoring the mechanical cultivation side entirely).

Section 2: Ling Qi and Ji Rong keeping pace in year 2 is believable
I did forget about the mirror (thanks PrimalShadow) and I don't think I realized just how great EPC is. With those two things, it's definitely reasonable for Ling Qi to keep up with Ji Rong (though I suspect that while Ji Rong didn't find a mirror, he probably found other thing(s) worth some proportion of the mirror).

To make a more explicit example, Sect gives 2GSS 40YSS/ month at our rank (and 1GSS 40YSS at Ji Rong's rank). CRX gives us another 3 GSS. EPC gives us another 4 virtual GSS.
How much does Sun Liling give Ji Rong? Is he really stuck using only 1 from AG? I mean, sure, if he is only using yellows, then Ling Qi is absolutely destroying him on the resource acquisition game, and his talent absolutely won't make up for that, but should it really make up for that big a gap in resources, and should Ji Rong really be losing by that much?

By spending 8GSS/turns, we are instead having Talent 6 + YSS25 + GSS 120 + Pills 10? + Stealth 6 = 167 dice base for cultivation.
At 167 dice the loss or addition of 1 GSS instead of a yellow (30 more dice) is approximately the same as the difference between talent 6/7. So basically as things currently are (with the current level of diminishing returns) Ling Qi needs to acquire 1 more GSS every month than Ji Rong to keep pace.

Is a green worth 40 yellows or 100 yellows? I can't remember and couldn't find it.

Basically, it's normal that someone more talented is more talented, but as is having a shit ton of ressource is its own strength that shouldn't be under estimated.
Sure, a race differing by 1 talent comes down to resources. The question has become how much extra resources should be required to overcome a 1 talent gap. Right now it's about ~1 GSS per month. Should it be 0.6GSS/M? Should it be 1.6? Should it be 3?

I think it's fine enough as is (Ji Rong is a reasonable challenge and threat), but an adjustment to make talent strong would probably be better done by increasing diminishing returns than by increasing the power of talent.
 
Section 1: Narrative shouldn't be determined purely by cultivation mechanics

Agreed. I didn't mean anything against either of those points while discussing cultivation speeds, but I was also trying to be somewhat concise and wanted to avoid adding little qualifying phrases everywhere like "ignoring narrative".


These are fantastic for the story and tend to make for better reading than "Ling Qi out-cultivated him". I hope all future conflicts are similarly interesting.

But at the same time, these narrative reasons are also somewhat divorced from mechanic discussions about whether talent is powerful enough or whether it's mechanically believable that either of them managed to keep pace with the other (so that the narrative could reasonably allow either to win without ignoring the mechanical cultivation side entirely).

Section 2: Ling Qi and Ji Rong keeping pace in year 2 is believable
I did forget about the mirror (thanks PrimalShadow) and I don't think I realized just how great EPC is. With those two things, it's definitely reasonable for Ling Qi to keep up with Ji Rong (though I suspect that while Ji Rong didn't find a mirror, he probably found other thing(s) worth some proportion of the mirror).


How much does Sun Liling give Ji Rong? Is he really stuck using only 1 from AG? I mean, sure, if he is only using yellows, then Ling Qi is absolutely destroying him on the resource acquisition game, and his talent absolutely won't make up for that, but should it really make up for that big a gap in resources, and should Ji Rong really be losing by that much?


At 167 dice the loss or addition of 1 GSS instead of a yellow (30 more dice) is approximately the same as the difference between talent 6/7. So basically as things currently are (with the current level of diminishing returns) Ling Qi needs to acquire 1 more GSS every month than Ji Rong to keep pace.

Is a green worth 40 yellows or 100 yellows? I can't remember and couldn't find it.


Sure, a race differing by 1 talent comes down to resources. The question has become how much extra resources should be required to overcome a 1 talent gap. Right now it's about ~1 GSS per month. Should it be 0.6GSS/M? Should it be 1.6? Should it be 3?

I think it's fine enough as is (Ji Rong is a reasonable challenge and threat), but an adjustment to make talent strong would probably be better done by increasing diminishing returns than by increasing the power of talent.

Mmm, honestly, Liling would have a hard time justifying giving Ji Rong more resources than we're getting from Renxiang. Especially as she's not the on-paper Heir anymore. He's likely getting somewhere between 2-3 GSS a turn from her, but I don't see that scaling up too rapidly anytime soon. It's also questionable as to whether his Cultivation Art is as good as the Eight Phase Ceremony as well--as ours was a direct link to the Moon Phases, and we've seen little of him that establishes him having a similarly lofty patron.
 
Mmm, honestly, Liling would have a hard time justifying giving Ji Rong more resources than we're getting from Renxiang. Especially as she's not the on-paper Heir anymore. He's likely getting somewhere between 2-3 GSS a turn from her, but I don't see that scaling up too rapidly anytime soon. It's also questionable as to whether his Cultivation Art is as good as the Eight Phase Ceremony as well--as ours was a direct link to the Moon Phases, and we've seen little of him that establishes him having a similarly lofty patron.
Eh, to be fair we see very little of both Liling and Ji Rong. We have almost no idea what adventures they've had both last year and recently. Nor am I sure how exactly we'd notice if Ji Rong did have a lofty patron.

I'd say "obviously Ling Qi has better adventures" but... I'm split on it, on the one hand that's protagonist bias, and on the other hand she did just cause the first year mountain to be buried in a massive blizzard...
 
I mean, we have in-character (literal) word of god that that is happening, so I'm certainly not to dispute that fact. What I do dispute is that having more information is always better. Having bad information mixed in with the good dilutes and diminishes the over quality of what you have collected. Pruning the info you have is useful for the same reasons pruning a tree is useful: it keep nutrients (time & attention) flowing to healthy regions, and prevents parasites and decay (misunderstandings) from infecting you via the unhealthy ones.

Sure having more information is not always better. This is true. But having someone else deciding what information you should have is so much worse than having too much information can ever be. It is a persons responsibility to develop the critical thinking skills necessary to use information in constructive ways. To use your pruning example an individual has to prune their own tree of knowledge. When someone else is "pruning" what information you have access to then that is censorship.

I am little off kilter here because it seems to me that you are arguing for something which is censorship, society removing 'bad' information, and not just sensible library management. Your argument seems to boil down to "we have to get rid of some information because libraries can't hold onto everything." I fundamentally disagree with this. If you find that libraries can't hold onto everything than I believe the correct response is to build more libraries. It is not to get rid of information. You seem to think that FOD being a death world makes it simply too dangerous to hold onto somethings for too long. I would argue that since this is a world filled with magic that there are magic solutions to those problems what ever those problems may be. I don't know what those solutions are just as you don't know what all the different problems are.

You seem to be trying really hard to give the purposeful destruction of information a purpose other than censorship for this setting. I will always disagree with that. It doesn't matter what the setting is. I don't care if the setting has books creating super storms that ravage the world. Then you just need to build libraries in locations farther way from cities.

The purposeful destruction of information is censorship no matter how you try to spin it. It is a single person or group deciding that people shouldn't have some information. I don't care if it is 'bad' information being destroyed. It is still censorship. I don't care if it is 'good' information being destroyed. It is still censorship. I fundamentally believe that one should avoid using labels for information. Information is information. Attaching labels to information is simply a way to justify censorship.

It should be up to the individual to determine what information they should pursue and what they are able to do with the information they find. Trying to keep people safe or to prevent misunderstandings by 'pruning' the information available to them is censorship. Censorship keeps people in the dark. Censorship prevents people from making the most informed decisions that they other wise would be able to. Censorship makes a persons life smaller. Censorship prevents people from reaching heights that they might have reached otherwise.

One may argue that they are trying save costs by destroying unneeded information. Need drives innovation. Innovation drives cost down. If you feel like you need to keep information you will find ways to keep it despite costs. Seeing someone advocating for the destruction of information because of cost tells me that person does not value information.

Some may say that they want to prevent misunderstandings so they get rid of information that might lead to 'misunderstandings.' I would argue that it is a persons own responsibility to use their own critical thinking skills and reason through misunderstandings. The more information that is available the easier it is for a person to see truths about the world and themselves.

To sum up this rant I agree with you that information in massive quantities can be bad. It can leave people disoriented. It can leave people floundering, unsure of what direction they should take. However 'pruning' the information available to more 'manageable' levels is censorship and censorship is far far worse then having an information overload.
 
How much does Sun Liling give Ji Rong? Is he really stuck using only 1 from AG? I mean, sure, if he is only using yellows, then Ling Qi is absolutely destroying him on the resource acquisition game, and his talent absolutely won't make up for that, but should it really make up for that big a gap in resources, and should Ji Rong really be losing by that much?
Something to keep in mind is that CRX hiring us as a Retainer not only while we are all still at the Sect but in first year no less, is super irregular. So we are justifiably getting a lot more from CRX than is typical in the heir/underling relationship.
 
Sure having more information is not always better. This is true. But having someone else deciding what information you should have is so much worse than having too much information can ever be. It is a persons responsibility to develop the critical thinking skills necessary to use information in constructive ways. To use your pruning example an individual has to prune their own tree of knowledge. When someone else is "pruning" what information you have access to then that is censorship.

I am little off kilter here because it seems to me that you are arguing for something which is censorship, society removing 'bad' information, and not just sensible library management. Your argument seems to boil down to "we have to get rid of some information because libraries can't hold onto everything." I fundamentally disagree with this. If you find that libraries can't hold onto everything than I believe the correct response is to build more libraries. It is not to get rid of information. You seem to think that FOD being a death world makes it simply too dangerous to hold onto somethings for too long. I would argue that since this is a world filled with magic that there are magic solutions to those problems what ever those problems may be. I don't know what those solutions are just as you don't know what all the different problems are.

You seem to be trying really hard to give the purposeful destruction of information a purpose other than censorship for this setting. I will always disagree with that. It doesn't matter what the setting is. I don't care if the setting has books creating super storms that ravage the world. Then you just need to build libraries in locations farther way from cities.

The purposeful destruction of information is censorship no matter how you try to spin it. It is a single person or group deciding that people shouldn't have some information. I don't care if it is 'bad' information being destroyed. It is still censorship. I don't care if it is 'good' information being destroyed. It is still censorship. I fundamentally believe that one should avoid using labels for information. Information is information. Attaching labels to information is simply a way to justify censorship.

It should be up to the individual to determine what information they should pursue and what they are able to do with the information they find. Trying to keep people safe or to prevent misunderstandings by 'pruning' the information available to them is censorship. Censorship keeps people in the dark. Censorship prevents people from making the most informed decisions that they other wise would be able to. Censorship makes a persons life smaller. Censorship prevents people from reaching heights that they might have reached otherwise.

One may argue that they are trying save costs by destroying unneeded information. Need drives innovation. Innovation drives cost down. If you feel like you need to keep information you will find ways to keep it despite costs. Seeing someone advocating for the destruction of information because of cost tells me that person does not value information.

Some may say that they want to prevent misunderstandings so they get rid of information that might lead to 'misunderstandings.' I would argue that it is a persons own responsibility to use their own critical thinking skills and reason through misunderstandings. The more information that is available the easier it is for a person to see truths about the world and themselves.

To sum up this rant I agree with you that information in massive quantities can be bad. It can leave people disoriented. It can leave people floundering, unsure of what direction they should take. However 'pruning' the information available to more 'manageable' levels is censorship and censorship is far far worse then having an information overload.
I think we gotta establish something here. There are such things as MISinformation. And misinformation can be very very bad. Denying that the Holocaust happened, for instance. Denying that global warming is real. Something that was said before as an example was that as time passed, it was established that alchemy is impossible and it was only once thought of as possible. If a book claims it is is still scientifically possible or that the Earth being flat is a scientific fact, that book shouldn't be in a library. Misinformation can also cause panic in an emergency situation, like a natural disaster. In that situation, it is important to control information and for authority figures who know the facts to provide the public with correct information. I.E. how bad the emergency situation really is, are there enough resources for the whole population. Panic can easily lead to misinformation. Or even if its not a single disaster, tense situations can lead to people scapegoating certain minority groups.
However, that's not what's happening in this story. Obviously, here it is censorship--the people destroying these works are doing so for political reasons and nothing else. I don't really know why people are bringing up the contexts in which it might be okay to limit misinformation, those contexts are not relevant to the story. I'm only chiming in because its already being discussed.
 
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Agreed. I didn't mean anything against either of those points while discussing cultivation speeds, but I was also trying to be somewhat concise and wanted to avoid adding little qualifying phrases everywhere like "ignoring narrative".

The real problem is that NPCs don't Cultivate the way we do. Of the mechanics we can see, only Ling Qi runs on them. Yes, there are tools that Yrs uses to measure the growth of other characters, but those tools are very simplified. No rolling thousands of dice in a single turn, for a single character, for anybody but Ling Qi.

So, when discussing Cultivation mechanics, we can only truly look at Ling Qi's growth with any degree of certainty, because we only have the mechanics for Ling Qi's growth.

Examining the growth of any other character is fuzzy at best.

These are fantastic for the story and tend to make for better reading than "Ling Qi out-cultivated him". I hope all future conflicts are similarly interesting.

But at the same time, these narrative reasons are also somewhat divorced from mechanic discussions about whether talent is powerful enough or whether it's mechanically believable that either of them managed to keep pace with the other (so that the narrative could reasonably allow either to win without ignoring the mechanical cultivation side entirely).

That's because Cultivation mechanics aren't strictly tied to the narrative of the story. In part because only LQ runs on those mechanics, and in part because there is nothing in place to seriously tie them together. Mechanically, there is no reason you can't have techs from SCS and TRF active at the same time; narratively, one wants to be always moving and the other wants to stand still, so the mindset involved in using each Art is different.

Second, Cultivation Mechanics aren't tied to Combat mechanics. Cultivation is what grants the tools that people fight with, but it doesn't tell them how to actually use those tools, and the combat mechanics have moved away from a strict simulation to be substantially more narrative.

The words used are 'rubber-banding', and it's an unfortunate side effect of having more going on than Yrs wants to keep close track of.

Sure, a race differing by 1 talent comes down to resources. The question has become how much extra resources should be required to overcome a 1 talent gap. Right now it's about ~1 GSS per month. Should it be 0.6GSS/M? Should it be 1.6? Should it be 3?

There is literally no way to accurately measure this, due exactly to the separation of LQ's simulationist mechanics from the narrative mechanics everybody else operates under.

Now, you could compare a talent 6 LQ with a talent 7 LQ, but that runs into other problems - namely, that you aren't comparing LQ to other people anymore, but to herself, and while that's workable it skips the point of the question - 'how much better do we have to do to out Cultivate someone else with one more talent?' - because everybody else is operating under a different system, and so that is liable to get factually incorrect results.

---

Another factor is that Yrsillar likes making simulationist systems, but doesn't tie them into the narrative in any real way. The systems he designs aren't evocative of much of anything, which is what I think you're looking for here. I'm sorry to say that you won't find it.
 
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How much does Sun Liling give Ji Rong? Is he really stuck using only 1 from AG? I mean, sure, if he is only using yellows, then Ling Qi is absolutely destroying him on the resource acquisition game, and his talent absolutely won't make up for that, but should it really make up for that big a gap in resources, and should Ji Rong really be losing by that much?


At 167 dice the loss or addition of 1 GSS instead of a yellow (30 more dice) is approximately the same as the difference between talent 6/7. So basically as things currently are (with the current level of diminishing returns) Ling Qi needs to acquire 1 more GSS every month than Ji Rong to keep pace.

Is a green worth 40 yellows or 100 yellows? I can't remember and couldn't find it.


Sure, a race differing by 1 talent comes down to resources. The question has become how much extra resources should be required to overcome a 1 talent gap. Right now it's about ~1 GSS per month. Should it be 0.6GSS/M? Should it be 1.6? Should it be 3?

I think it's fine enough as is (Ji Rong is a reasonable challenge and threat), but an adjustment to make talent strong would probably be better done by increasing diminishing returns than by increasing the power of talent.
First GSS is 40 dice, but following ones are 80. So, the difference between 2GSS/Weeks and 3 is 160-240 (and 1 would be 80~). Likewise, there is a lot of multipliers in the new system, and a lot of them come from spirit beasts. "How much ressource is 1 Talent worth" is a good question, but it's a narrative one that Yrs should decide, not us. Currently, though, Talent probably also give some 'luck' to some measure.

How much Sun Liling give Ji Rong is unknown, but while Sun Liling doesn't have the limit Shenhua gives CRX, Ji Rong... isn't her retainer, either. More than that, we don't know when AG gives virtual GSS. It is not impossible it only does it in foundation, though that's unknown. Basically, currently Ling Qi can afford to spend 8GSS/turn without loss, and she has 36GSS in stock, so can afford to switch to 12GSS/turn in foundation. That's really kind of huge, to the point I don't think we can assume anyone but high noble favored scions can afford our bankrolled pace. Or those who get a stupid amount of lucky finds.

EDIT: Still, as said by others, we shouldn't be looking at the mechanics to decide where other people will be, because other people don't roll, and they don't live in a mechanical system.
 
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Seeing someone advocating for the destruction of information because of cost tells me that person does not value information.
I had a few posts in the old thread about this, but in FoD world (and in many parts of ours) information is only valuable for what it can get you. It is emphatically not free.

Intellectual property rights or other assertions of inherent value for all information and of the value of information for information's sake are specific cultural formations of Western history. People in FoD don't share information or value information for being information because their bourgeois rising class depends on the same exclusivity as their entrenched nobility. It isn't the same as the Protestant bourgeois rising class which lead to modern ideals about information. It is not obvious or self-evident that information is ideologically important to preserve.

FoD makes holding onto objects too long inherently dangerous, even beyond those objects' actual content or purpose, because those objects might start resenting you. A magic solution to that magical problem is...burning the books. You don't need a magic solution, especially because magic solutions (like anti-spirit-formation-formations or whatever) cost spirit stones and burning the book is gratis, even if it's not free. Society needs to be organized in a different way from how FoD's Celestial Empire is organized in order for information to be free. It can't be up to the individual to make the kinds of decisions you implore them to make, because the individual doesn't have the kind of opportunity or access which that would require. Ling Qi had to enter a restricted quarter before finding this library. It wasn't public. This information already isn't free. This is an archive far from just any inhabitant. It's not a resource available to just anyone, this is a resource for citizens who are given higher inherent value due to their inherited or given stations. Any information here isn't going to be free.

It's all very well to bemoan this from the audience, but you need to understand that this is business as usual for FoD, not the precursor for burning people. Even from a modern Western perspective, the book burning isn't the real problem and focusing ideologically and pathologically on that is shortsighted.
 
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Still, as said by others, we shouldn't be looking at the mechanics to decide where other people will be, because other people don't roll, and they don't live in a mechanical system.

I'm not sure I agree with this. It's true that other characters don't roll, but we should still be able to estimate where they are based on the mechanics and the information we have. Yrsillar can do this as well, so our estimates should generally be accurate unless we're missing important information.
 
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Something to keep in mind is that CRX hiring us as a Retainer not only while we are all still at the Sect but in first year no less, is super irregular. So we are justifiably getting a lot more from CRX than is typical in the heir/underling relationship.
On the other hand I feel like Sun Shao is more generous with Sun Liling than Cai Shenhua is with Cai Renxiang. Shenhua seems primarily interested in testing Renxiang with carefully limited resources. Sun Shao seems more interested in doting on Liling, Liling showing up the Bai, and in the Sun clan appearing strong, all of which encourage a bit of extra resources being sent to Liling. I feel like it's a wash between "special full retainer of CRX whose resources are carefully limited" and "normal underling of psuedo-heir spoiled with extra resources with few underlings of strong potential".

I've definitely changed my mind and think it's totally believable that Ling Qi can keep up with or even outpace Ji Rong. But I still think it's also believable that Ji Rong can keep up with Ling Qi (though I'm starting to think it a little unlikely). I still think it's believable that he kept up in year 1.

First GSS is 40 dice, but following ones are 80. So, the difference between 2GSS/Weeks and 3 is 160-240 (and 1 would be 80~). Likewise, there is a lot of multipliers in the new system, and a lot of them come from spirit beasts.
Ah, table 1-1 in the cultivation rules in the tutorial only notes GSS 1-4 as worth 40. It also says you can only use 16 stones, so you can't just add a GSS you have to also remove a YSS. Multipliers are kind of strange to me because they're kind of the oposite of diminishing returns where additional resources increase cultivation speed even more. I think it's set up this way because of the ever increasing cultivation requirements? But it definitely does have an effect that talent is less powerful compared to additional resources.

As for the value of mechanics discussions:

The real problem is that NPCs don't Cultivate the way we do. Of the mechanics we can see, only Ling Qi runs on them. Yes, there are tools that Yrs uses to measure the growth of other characters, but those tools are very simplified. No rolling thousands of dice in a single turn, for a single character, for anybody but Ling Qi.

So, when discussing Cultivation mechanics, we can only truly look at Ling Qi's growth with any degree of certainty, because we only have the mechanics for Ling Qi's growth.

Examining the growth of any other character is fuzzy at best.



That's because Cultivation mechanics aren't strictly tied to the narrative of the story. In part because only LQ runs on those mechanics, and in part because there is nothing in place to seriously tie them together. Mechanically, there is no reason you can't have techs from SCS and TRF active at the same time; narratively, one wants to be always moving and the other wants to stand still, so the mindset involved in using each Art is different.

Second, Cultivation Mechanics aren't tied to Combat mechanics. Cultivation is what grants the tools that people fight with, but it doesn't tell them how to actually use those tools, and the combat mechanics have moved away from a strict simulation to be substantially more narrative.

The words used are 'rubber-banding', and it's an unfortunate side effect of having more going on than Yrs wants to keep close track of.



There is literally no way to accurately measure this, due exactly to the separation of LQ's simulationist mechanics from the narrative mechanics everybody else operates under.

Now, you could compare a talent 6 LQ with a talent 7 LQ, but that runs into other problems - namely, that you aren't comparing LQ to other people anymore, but to herself, and while that's workable it skips the point of the question - 'how much better do we have to do to out Cultivate someone else with one more talent?' - because everybody else is operating under a different system, and so that is liable to get factually incorrect results.

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Another factor is that Yrsillar likes making simulationist systems, but doesn't tie them into the narrative in any real way. The systems he designs aren't evocative of much of anything, which is what I think you're looking for here. I'm sorry to say that you won't find it.
I don't really disagree with anything you wrote, it just... doesn't feel like it applies. It feels like your conception of the point/meaning of my words is fundamentally different from my own. I'll try to clarify, but I worry I'm not quite getting your post or that you won't quite get mine... but oh well, communication is messy and tricky sometimes.

Your response seems to be "Ji Rong really was rubberbanded because yrsillar doesn't actually run the full simulation" but that doesn't really matter in this discussion (the post I first responded to was Huo Yuhao felt like Ji Rong was unfairly rubberbanded to Ling Qi's level). Instead what matters is whether it feels unfair or unrealistic for (mechanic caring) thread participants which in turn depends on a whole host of things but the most relevant one is: how much or how little the narrative (due to yrsillar's internal simulation estimation) corresponds to a thread participant's own internal simulation estimation.

No amount of saying "things aren't actually fully simulated behind the scenes" will change whether or not things feel fair and rewarding. Nor does it invalidate discussions about what results people think full simulation would have (because those are, ultimately, discussions about what outcomes feel fair, rewarding, and accurate (for those who pay attention to the mechanics)). Those discussions don't tend to be explicit about all that as it's a lot simpler with essentially the same outcomes to just pretend the world actually is fully simulated.

Err, I earlier said "these narrative reasons are somewhat divorced from mechanic discussions about [relative cultivation speeds]" , but I should clarify I meant "these specific narrative reasons for the outcome of the tournament fight". Narrative reasons for why a talent 7 Ji Rong's cultivation should be slower, equal, or faster than Ling Qi's cultivation (both in-world and in a full simulation) are very important.
 
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I had a few posts in the old thread about this, but in FoD world (and in many parts of ours) information is only valuable for what it can get you. It is emphatically not free.

Intellectual property rights or other assertions of inherent value for all information and of the value of information for information's sake are specific cultural formations of Western history. People in FoD don't share information or value information for being information because their bourgeois rising class depends on the same exclusivity as their entrenched nobility. It isn't the same as the Protestant bourgeois rising class which lead to modern ideals about information. It is not obvious or self-evident that information is ideologically important to preserve.

FoD makes holding onto objects too long inherently dangerous, even beyond those objects' actual content or purpose, because those objects might start resenting you. A magic solution to that magical problem is...burning the books. You don't need a magic solution, especially because magic solutions (like anti-spirit-formation-formations or whatever) cost spirit stones and burning the book is gratis, even if it's not free. Society needs to be organized in a different way from how FoD's Celestial Empire is organized in order for information to be free. It can't be up to the individual to make the kinds of decisions you implore them to make, because the individual doesn't have the kind of opportunity or access which that would require. Ling Qi had to enter a restricted quarter before finding this library. It wasn't public. This information already isn't free. This is an archive far from just any inhabitant. It's not a resource available to just anyone, this is a resource for citizens who are given higher inherent value due to their inherited or given stations. Any information here isn't going to be free.

It's all very well to bemoan this from the audience, but you need to understand that this is business as usual for FoD, not the precursor for burning people. Even from a modern Western perspective, the book burning isn't the real problem and focusing ideologically and pathologically on that is shortsighted.
I wouldn't say this is being focused on to a pathological extent.You make a good point about those objects starting to be dangerous and that a more cost effective way would be just destroy them. However, if someone has enough resources to use magic solutions (and lets be real, a lot of cultivators are loaded), then they shouldn't be burning them. If they're not as financially secure that's one thing, but either way that's not what's going in this story. It was explicitly said they were burning the works for political reasons. Aka censorship.
 
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