Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- United States
*sigh*... I really wish I were better at being concise. I blame high school lit classes that always had requirements like "6+ pages" that effectively discouraged being concise.
A Normal Evening
A Normal Evening
Pale flames traced through the air, pillars rising forth and carving intricate strings of untold thousands of formation characters glowing brilliantly with Intent and focused Qi. Suspended in the air of the crafting stage was an ephemeral wonder. A temporary construction of Heaven and Earth Qi, channeling the energies of creation in a massive, impossible furnace that churned endlessly. Bits and pieces of layers of formations would dim, flake apart into constituent Qi, and then be gripped and reconstituted into a new layer in an unending and high-speed display of control and timing.
Gusts of wind blew, errant breezes carrying the still-beating heart of the Heaven-Chasing Ram, clouds of freshly diced Three-Hundred Year Spider-Root, and other exotic ingredients into the brightly burning inferno. The layers making up the construction rotating rapidly to allow the additions unobstructed passage. All the while, Qi pulsed through the air, feeding the flames additional fuel and Intent to help forge the mixture into a result worthy of the Cultivators of the Argent Sect.
In awe, the ingredients melted down and began to take form around a single shining object; the High Grade Core of a Fermentation Aphid, notorious for wrecking the crops of higher level estates and infamous scourge of the Sects own farms. Ordinarily a pest, but when allowed to roam it, as it's name suggests, gathered the residues and medicinal energies of its food into an incredibly potent foundation for cultivators who could tease out its secrets. Time passed, and an aurora began to leak out, joining the lights cast by the shining constructs and the roaring flames in which the ingredients were being bathed.
A pitch orb took shape within the depths of those fires, and additional arrays, worked within infinitesimal layers shone brightly, bathing the forming pill with a rainbow of colors and manipulations, and the tar flaked away, revealing a lustrous pearl. A hint of scent filled the air, the refreshing smell of high grade medicines triggering the olfactory sensations of the gathered Cultivators before being shut off abruptly, the smoke of the flaking tar caught in an air-tight seal. The supernatural flames within the furnace dimmed, but the pale energies that constructed grew bright with final effort as the layers compressed, tightened, and shrank into an infinitesimal coating of the resulting pill, the energies dying down at last to reveal a singular bronze orb, carried down by a laughing breeze into the waiting hand of its creator.
I, Zhiqiang laughed, turning a knowing look towards my opposite, and Bao Qingling stood up from her own specialized furnace, her own work sealed professionally within a carrying case. Though our eyes did not meet, I could still recognize the anger and insult rolling off her in almost visible waves, and with a flourish I placed the Highwood Condensing Pill into it's own carrying case to present to the judging Elder.
...
"So you lost." My errant student stated the obvious as we walked through the forests ringing the Third Peak.
"I did indeed," I reply, pawing at my faux man chu, "Your observational skills improve by the day, Junior Brother. Senior Brother is most pleased."
Ji Rong glanced back towards me, glaring as was his wont, "Okay, I get that you were expecting that, but why."
"This may seem strange to hear, given your rather hot-headed Mistress, but sometimes you need to present weakness in order to project strength."
The young man besides me paused, blinked once or twice, and then strode the catch back up to me, "Okay what."
Time for another lesson, it seemed! "Which seems stronger to you: The Steelfurred Bear that shows no reaction, no loss of strength, despite accumulating wounds, or the Steelfurred Bear that does everything possible to avoid a blow?"
"...There's a-"
I sigh, "Okay." Let's try something more familiar then, "The Gang Leader that shrugs off the loss of a few enforcers but still retains his territory as if he was unscathed, or the one who husbands his strength desperately, never willing to commit for fear of risking a potential loss?"
"The guy that can take the punch, I guess." Ji Rong responds, now that we're on ground he can comprehend, "So I guess you were showing off that you could take a hit like that without blinking?"
"So you can learn," I chuckle idly as the sun finishes setting, welcoming the darkness, "Truly a testament to the efforts of whomever took the time to soften that thick skull of yours, Junior Brother."
The scarred boy rolls his eyes, "Yeah, yeah. So why the Spider creep?"
The air vibrates with a low hum as I contemplate how to phrase it, "Mostly a matter of aesthetics, I suppose." A hand rises up, "On the one hand, Sect Sister Bao is someone who recently made an even bigger splash in advancing down the rankings than I did, and displaying that I could challenge her in her area of speciality was in its own way a show of strength."
"Even if you lost."
"Especially if I lost." I correct, "Creating that Highwood Condensing Pill was no trivial feat, Junior Brother. My skills simply allowed me to emulate the necessary skills required to bring about an adequate recreation of the steps required for its creation." With a casual flick of the wrist, the Qi of Heaven is channeled down a single Meridian, launching from my upraised palm into a miniature recreation of the construct I had relied upon, "This was a disposable, one time furnace designed to create the Highwood Condensing Pill exclusively. It, combined with a passing knowledge of the actual process and recipe for the pill itself, could hypothetically allow a Cultivator who is inexperienced in the crafting of pills to create an adequate product. A waste of the ingredients compared to a more experienced hand using them, but as needs must."
But the scarred boy seemed skeptical, "And if it wasn't that particular pill?"
More miniature furnaces, each subtly different in construction and arrangement of Formation script, took form above and around the original example, "I would have adapted as the circumstances demanded."
"...And the reason more people don't pull that kind of stunt?" Ji Rong paused, scowling to himself, "Oh yeah. Money."
"Naturally," I, Zhiqiang, chuckled, "Hmph, hmph, do you once again realize how amazing your humble teacher is, my foolish student?"
"Yeah, humble." My errant student mumbled, as if I could not hear him, "So I guess if you could pull that kind of stunt off, what's to stop you from pulling a similar stunt again in the future, huh?"
I nod in satisfaction as the constructs are returned to base qi and thus my dantian, "Correct. Its a thorough check on any would be opportunists that think this Zhiqiang to be easy prey, whether to be challenged by, or to challenge themselves. So long as others are wary, I can have the time I need to focus on more important matters."
The first lights of the Grinning Moon come down through the sparse canopy of the forest, "Which brings us to why I had you accompany my self, Junior Brother."
"What, you plan to drag me into being your punching bag for a month or something?" The former delinquent replies skeptically.
"Not at all!" I chuckle in response, "No, this Zhiqiang shall have you accompany a friend of mine who is in dire need of company, and can assist you with the troubles your beloved Master shall inevitably bring down upon you."
"Oh yeah?" The trees part, revealing a clearing covered in tall grass, bathed in moonlight, "Well-" I swiftly cover the blowhards mouth with my palm.
I've miscalculated.
"Do not make a sound." Brother Wind whispers in Ji Rongs ear, and he slackens against my grip, "I was not familiar with this section of the mountain, and thus did not recognize the circumstances of taking this route."
Tall grass. In the middle of the night. Our destination was directly ahead of us, past this field, and as ever I was confident in my stealth...So it should be safe. Worst case scenario, unless we were remarkably unlucky, we wouldn't stumble across a Pack Alpha and thus would be more than capable of repelling any singular creatures that tried to run us down.
"Do as I do." Brother Wind whispered once more, and with that last warning the both of us drew the air around myself and Ji Rong into a tight film, blocking out scent and sound utterly. Wind Qi came next, as our presences were suppressed as thoroughly as possible. And with that, we stepped into the grass, slowly, desperately moving between blades of plant matter as I laid a path through the field that would avoid contact with the creatures that had made the patch of land their home.
The sound of heavy breathing and snorting, the occasional honk breaking the silence with which my errant student and I moved, but unfortunately, with my focus on suppressing the presence of Ji Rong and myself what it was, my own proud senses failed to track every possible opponent. As a flash of dark scales peeks through the blades of grass, I barely manage to maneuver around it safely, and my errant student attempts to emulate my movement.
However, a beast which had gotten the drop on me would be far beyond Ji Rong's own abilities to detect. Which, as our moving obstacle moved its snout downwards at seeming random, soon discovered. The scarred boy failed to pick up on the need to react, and the two lightly brushed against one another. A shrill, piercing cry came a second later, a hunting call that stripped away the thin layer of wind the Brother Wind and I had weaved around the boy and revealed his presence as the tall grass began to shake violently before parting to reveal the long snouted, inquisitive and reptilian face of the inhabitants of this territory.
A Third Realm Foundation Crescent Talon Ravager.
The initial cry was answered by a chorus of honking sounds, and additional cries as the numerous other presences I had managed to detect began making their way towards our location. Ebony claws reached towards Ji Rong, who stood oddly still, and I could see my errant students eyes bulge in shock.
"The hell is this ugly thing?!" He barked out, and the monster tilted its head, silver and black scales shimmering in the moonlight. Green eyes blinked, its mouth opened in a snarl, and the Spirit Beast leaped at the shorter boy, its trademark silver crescent claw set to carve open Ji Rong.
To his credit, he responded with an admirable left hook to the jaw, laying it out.
Unfortunately, the idiot tried to savor his victory, so I had Brother Wind communicate something very important.
"Yes, yes, well done, but these things are pack animals so we need to go!"
With a look, my errant student and I began booking it for the opposite end of the grass, the cries and shaking hounding us at every step. Divots of pale qi were driven into the earth, traps to hamstring and otherwise hold up our pursuers, and still we ran as I desperately attempted to occlude Ji Rong from their senses. But the beasts had his scent, and as tempting as leaving him to his own devices was, I decided against the easy route as his Senior Brother ought to act.
What a troublesome child, this Baron Ji continues to be.
Eventually, we break through the grass and return to the forest, at which point a trio of the Ravagers passes through the boundary of their own territory to continue the pursuit. But there was a reason the creatures stuck to their own territory where the moonlight shone brightest. Here, in this forest, the shadows grew deep and hungered for whatever prey they could grasp.
Flickering masses of darkness fell upon the monsters en masse, dozens of Second Realm Darkness spirits fell upon the intruders, attaching themselves to their brilliantly shining scales like so much pitch, their sheer mass weighing them down, entrapping them. Scales shone a bright silver a moment later as Ji Rong and I ran, and as the battling spirits neared the end of the effective range of my senses, I could see the man-sized reptiles digging into the mass of pitifully mewling shadows with relish and a triumphant cry.
The plan a success, we eventually slowed down, neither of us quite out of breath yet.
"So..." Ji Rong paused, breathing deeply, "The second thing?"
"Right, so the second thing." I, Zhiqiang, clear my throat and raise my other hand up, "I had something of a personal score to settle with Sect Sister Bao."
"And that was?"
"She had apparently managed to hide her cultivation level from my own senses." I sniffed, "As she had overcome me at my speciality, my pride demanded that I at least answer the insult back in kind."
My errant student blinked, "Okay...But you lost?"
"I lost, true, but I still came within spitting distance of matching her own skills despite having not even a fraction of her investment into pillcrafting." A hand pawed at my faux man chu, "The very fact that this Zhiqiang came so close despite approaching her field of specialization so casually was a tremendous insult to her own talents as a crafter. 'What if he had become a Crafter? Did he just decide he had no need to put as much time or effort as I did into it? Did he just decide that my own speciality was inferior to his own cludged together sensory skills that I already beat?! Is he looking down on pillcrafters?!'" I counted fingers off my hand.
"Something like that should have been going through her head near the end there." I chuckle throatily, "So I should think our balance in that regard settled."
"You sure about that?" Ji Rong replied doubtfully, "She seemed like the type to really hold a grudge."
"Pfft, hardly." I replied with a shake of my head, "Her type is far too focused on cost-benefit analysis to try and waste time on something as petty as a grudge over basic tic for tac-manship." I chuckle lightly at the thought, "At the very least, she should have some awareness of her position as the scion of a Count house, and going so far over something as small as this would inevitably look bad."
"And if she does?"
I, Zhiqiang, snort, "She's possibly the most unsociable person I've ever seen. What can she possibly do to hamper this Zhiqiang?"
I would later come to recall that for that Ji Rong's skull was thick as stone, he didn't get to where he was without his own talents to maneuver through a crisis. Specifically, a kind of base animal cunning and instinct that proved more often accurate than not.
There were times that, as much as I would not want to admit it...He had a point.
A.N. I originally intended this to cover more stuff, but due to the length its reaching and the pain in the ass I had to deal with for the last Omake, I'm gonna just split it into two parts instead. Here ya go, @yrsillar
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
So I have gotten three things from your post. First, censorship is ok if it is used as a cost saving measure. Second, censorship is ok if most people are not going to read the book away. Third, censorship is ok because it is business as usual for the Celestial Empire. Basically from this post you are telling me that in FOD censorship is ok.
This is concerning to me for several different reasons. The big deal is that if censorship is ok in fantasy what makes it unacceptable in reality? That however is a conversation for a different time. For now lets focus on the three big points I saw in your post.
First using censorship as a cost saving measure. People don't censor information in order to save costs. If you look at the ALA list of banned books and the reasons for those banned books you will not see saving costs as one of the reasons given. When a group decides to ban a book the last thing on the group's mind is costs. It is just not part of the consideration for information being censored.
Second censorship is ok if people were not going to read the books anyway. People don't censor books that people are not reading. Using the ALA list of banned books again the books that are banned are popular books. Books that people want to read. Information that people want to have is the information that is censored.
Third is the argument when in Rome. However this argument seems to lose a lot of weight when the people in Rome also disapprove of the practice.
It is clear to me that even in the Celestial Empire censorship is not really accepted. The book burning is done in the quiet the dark. It is done in a restricted area. It is clear to me that the people who have ordered this book burning don't really want others to know it is happening. This shows to me that censorship while being 'business as usually' is not approved by the general populace. So I guess that if we are doing the When in Rome argument we now have to disapprove of censorship.
Resources, cultivation bonuses, and Talent all scale multiplicatively with each other. Cultivation bonuses don't really change the balance between resources and Talent; they just multiply what happens in all cases.
So e.g. if you use the resources to get double the number of dice, but have a lower talent which only gets half as many successes per die, those thing will cancel out regardless of how much your cultivation multipliers are.
- Location
- Cali
Since we're making a new cultivation art, we should make something that speaks to who Ling Qi is.
[] Historical Plays, works of wit and satire, (Speech, Government,)
This seems useful as a mechanic, but has nothing to do with who Ling Qi is at her core. Also, it might seem like having speech/government would be nice for a noble or a worker under CRX, but these are actually useless for Ling Qi if you think about it (or at least Government is, speech is only slightly useful). Her nobility title will be Baron, as in those people who get a plot of wild or near-wild land and are responsible for wrestling it into place. Additionally, her main role under CRX would be more related to creating social openings by becoming a famous musician, which would give CRX a good centerpiece for noble parties and a good point to start schmoozing with others.
[] Songs and poems of peoples and ways of life long gone (Spirit Ken, Beast handling)
I personally think this is the best. Ling Qi considers Zhengui, Hanyi, and Sixiang to be part of her family, and they will likely be part of this quest until the very end. Plus, as stated above, Barons are tasked with bringing wild territory to heel, which means dealing with native spirits and beasts.
[] Paintings, watercolors and tapestries depicting glories long gone (Art, War)
Although Ling Qi is a musician, she doesn't really do art for the sake of art. War is useful for the upcoming Barbarian invasion, but that doesn't seem like a big part of Ling Qi's life.
[X] Songs and poems of peoples and ways of life long gone (Spirit Ken, Beast handling)
[] Historical Plays, works of wit and satire, (Speech, Government,)
This seems useful as a mechanic, but has nothing to do with who Ling Qi is at her core. Also, it might seem like having speech/government would be nice for a noble or a worker under CRX, but these are actually useless for Ling Qi if you think about it (or at least Government is, speech is only slightly useful). Her nobility title will be Baron, as in those people who get a plot of wild or near-wild land and are responsible for wrestling it into place. Additionally, her main role under CRX would be more related to creating social openings by becoming a famous musician, which would give CRX a good centerpiece for noble parties and a good point to start schmoozing with others.
[] Songs and poems of peoples and ways of life long gone (Spirit Ken, Beast handling)
I personally think this is the best. Ling Qi considers Zhengui, Hanyi, and Sixiang to be part of her family, and they will likely be part of this quest until the very end. Plus, as stated above, Barons are tasked with bringing wild territory to heel, which means dealing with native spirits and beasts.
[] Paintings, watercolors and tapestries depicting glories long gone (Art, War)
Although Ling Qi is a musician, she doesn't really do art for the sake of art. War is useful for the upcoming Barbarian invasion, but that doesn't seem like a big part of Ling Qi's life.
[X] Songs and poems of peoples and ways of life long gone (Spirit Ken, Beast handling)
If you carefully read the post that you are disagreeing with, you will notice that it says nothing about censorship. I understand that that is what you want to talk about, but you are mischerectarizing the arguments that you are opposing to.
I will specifically mention the "cost" issue, because it is one I raised earlier. The claim is NOT that censorship is okay if it is used "as a cost saving measure". That claim is that IN GENERAL cost can be a good reason not to store information indefinitely, and that this is likely to meaningfully apply in FoD where books can gain dangerous powers if you leave them in a locker and forget about them for a long time.
Note that this motivation is orthogonal to wanting to suppress a text. In fact, as you yourself said, if you want to censorsl a text cost is probably not a major concern.
IRL when a company whipes hard-drives which have reached end of life and drills a hole in them, I don't get upset about the loss of information and I expect most people to feel similarly. Yes, people wanting to conceal something could do the same thing, but that doesn't make the behavior wrong. At worst it makes the behavior questionable, due to being used as a frequent front by wrongdoers.
- Location
- United States
3.5hour EDIT: All my math is based on incorrect information (I had been told that 1st GSS is 40 and others are 80 (EDIT: Arkeus meant 1 per week, but I was doing math per month)). My point about it being weird for diminishing returns to be reversed and even temporarily have increasing returns is still ok, but for correct math see Raising Kittens's reply:
And now back to the original post:
That's the bit that I found strange. Not flat multipliers but things that have weird paths of percentage increases that not only avoid normal and natural diminishing returns but have *increasing* returns (even if only for a little while, it's still weird).
10 minute EDIT: Actually I'm not perfectly clear on how this effect works. According to how I expect it should go +0, +40, +120, +200, however the actual example in the cultivation rules of the tutorial post indicates it would actually go +0, +40, +160, +240 (because the 12YSS gets both the 4*5 and a full 12*10 instead of just 8*10). If we assume that the person adding GSS starts with 16YSS then there's the way I would expect it to work and the way yrsillar's example works which leads to the two potential options:
140, 170, 240, 310, 380; 21%, 41%, 29%, 23%
180, 210, 360, 430, 500; 17%, 71%, 19%, 16%
And now back to the original post:
I think the word "multipliers" was perhaps inaccurate, at least on my part. Normally the percentage difference between incremental values decreases as the value rises. For example going from 1 to 2 is a 100% increase while going from 2 to 3 is only a 50% increase (33%, 25%, 20%, 17%, 14%, 12.5%, 11.1%, 10%, ...). But assuming Arkeus is right going from 0GGSS to 1G is a lower percentage increase than 1 GSS to 2GSS. If we assume 12YSS the progression is 120, 160, 240, 320, 400 for percentage increases of 33%, 50%, 33%, 25%. This is really weird, and it delays the point where it'd normally be more valuable to have the 17% increase from talent 6 to 7 to happen much later than it otherwise would have.
That's the bit that I found strange. Not flat multipliers but things that have weird paths of percentage increases that not only avoid normal and natural diminishing returns but have *increasing* returns (even if only for a little while, it's still weird).
10 minute EDIT: Actually I'm not perfectly clear on how this effect works. According to how I expect it should go +0, +40, +120, +200, however the actual example in the cultivation rules of the tutorial post indicates it would actually go +0, +40, +160, +240 (because the 12YSS gets both the 4*5 and a full 12*10 instead of just 8*10). If we assume that the person adding GSS starts with 16YSS then there's the way I would expect it to work and the way yrsillar's example works which leads to the two potential options:
140, 170, 240, 310, 380; 21%, 41%, 29%, 23%
180, 210, 360, 430, 500; 17%, 71%, 19%, 16%
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- Location
- California
The possibility that there might be discrepancies in internal simulation estimations is a good point. This might be the case, as there weren't too many instances outside of Ling Qi vs Ji Rong where I felt a character was significantly stronger or weaker than he or she should have been.
Ji Rong's development has been discussed at length so far but I'll talk about my point of view. Looking at his situation from an in-story perspective without reading any omakes, Ji Rong should have been tremendously behind Ling Qi in resources throughout much of FoD. He seemed to avoid making friends and developing relationships for much of the year, so it's questionable how he would have received anywhere near the resources Ling Qi did. He might have caught up once he obtained Liling's support, but CRX's support should have been at least on the same level, especially with the White Rooms. This is without taking into consideration the time he spent frozen or locked up. I really didn't think he could catch up after all of that.
Character progression is only considered to be rubber-banding if it seems unrealistic. I think the main issue is that I'm not sure just how yrsillar handles progression. If he generally scales Ling Qi's peers such that they always occupy certain positions of strength relative to Ling Qi based on their narrative roles, perverse incentives are created with regards to Ling Qi's development. For example, there was a discussion on Discord several weeks ago about whether we should aim for S stats in more attributes instead of SS stats in a few specific ones. There was concern that ducal scions in the tournament might have stats one rank higher than us regardless of which option we chose.
Personally, I want confirmation our build choices actually matter for our relative strength in the story. The Ji Rong fight was a great opportunity for that, as both he and Ling Qi were talents who started from nothing. I didn't get the feeling that all the meticulous strategizing and resource maximization occurring among readers was appropriately rewarded.
This isn't really a complaint about how yrsillar is handling the story though. I understand that a lot of work needs to be put into a series like this and that it's impossible to satisfy everyone while still writing a good story. Also, as I said before, my perspective might be biased as I didn't look too carefully at the math nor did I read the omakes about Ji Rong.
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- Location
- United States
The side story omakes for Ji Rong were mostly about Ji Rong getting intensive tutoring from a particular inner sect disciple leading up to the tournament (who was briefly mentioned in Bao Quingling's interlude). There was a bit about how very important Sun Liling is to the Sun clan.
Hmm, yeah. Talent's pretty strong; Chu Song found and started helping him really early; we know he was approximately equal to Ling Qi during archive pass handout week; he joined Sun Liling quite early (she broke him out of stasis); I'm confident that Sun Shao gave Liling some kind of resources to allow her and her posse to at least try to keep up with CRX's White Room; and Ji Rong is basically her last remaining talented underling. Also fewer friendships allows for more closed door cultivation. EDIT: plus we have no idea what adventures and lucky finds he's gotten up to that might equal or exceed Ling Qi's own.
Altogether I didn't have a hard time believing Ji Rong kept pace, but I can see how you would.
Perverse incentives would indeed be disappointing, but I suspect that if yrsillar does that level of fudging for cultivation then it's similar for fights and worries about S vs SS are probably not all that important.
But... I have always just assumed that Yrsillar has something like 0.8*WoG understanding of the world's events and uses that understanding to run his own internal simulation for how much cultivation a particular character has managed since they were last seen (along with some extra nudging for narrative improvements here and there).
Fair enough. I'm happy with how the Ji Rong fight went. I care more about narrative, and for mechanics it's ok as long as it's reasonably believable to me (which is a lot looser standard).
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- Location
- United States of America
Look, I'm going to be honest. This issue about "cost" is... irrelevant to the actual discussion of the actual situation in FoD. In fact, this whole discussion has been a train-wreck in my view due to people taking generalized comments @Neshuakadal made regarding the current situation in FoD and arguing about completely irrelevant general issues regarding censorship, the destruction of information, and the control of information.
And regarding this entire discussion, I have seen no arguments with any merit to the actual situation that is occurring. Even your argument about cost savings is without merit because it deals with private individuals, or government agencies, making a decision to destroy information that they directly control rather than the government destroying and suppressing information that others have. So yes, your argument is completely correct in all regards for people destroying information that they directly control. And the argument is also irrelevant to the actual discussion of what is happening in FoD.
Here is the actual situation in FoD. The government has deemed that it doesn't like certain information and is using a carrot to induce the organization with that information to destroy it. If the Government had direct control over those libraries and organizations then they wouldn't need to use the carrot to induce action. There is no evidence in the chapter that the libraries didn't have space for the new information and so needed to remove books for the new information, there is no evidence that the old information was damaging to the general public or in some way destructive to the general populace, there is no evidence that the information was so ancient that it was becoming dangerous to store, and there is no evidence that the information was wrong due to changes in the physics or spirit realm and so needed to be replaced.
There is a ton of possible justifications for the destruction of information in FoD. None of it is relevant to what is occurring unless people are going to make baseless assumptions about the information that is being destroyed. Which would be... strange, given that we know some of the information being destroyed. Historical plays of wit and satire, presumably criticizing the government. Songs and poems about how people used to live. And finally, artwork depicting glories long since past. This is the information being destroyed. All of this is a part of a group's culture and heritage. Plays, songs/poems, and artwork destroyed because the government doesn't like them.
The data provided in the tutorial is in error, because - as you say - it lists the results for twenty stones, not sixteen.
Sixteen stones - 12 YSS, 4 GSS - works as described by the formula written in that particular tutorial: (4 * 5 + 8 * 10 + 4 * 40) / 4 = 5 + 20 + 40 = 65 dice per AP from stones alone.
As such, 16 YSS is as you think it should be, provided four AP are spent on the process: (Stones / 4) * AP invested.
And then we start adding GSS/month from there.
So someone using 15 YSS and 1 GSS would have: (4 * 5 + 11 * 10 + 40) / 4 = (20 + 110 + 40) / 4 = 170 / 4 = 42.5 dice per AP.
Oh, I think I see where the problem is. The first four GSS count as 40; every GSS after that counts as 80.
So using 14 YSS and two GSS would be (4 * 5 + 10 * 10 + 2 * 40) / 4 = (20 + 100 + 80) / 4 = 200 / 4 = 50 dice per AP, not sixty.
11 YSS and five GSS would be (4 * 5 + 7 * 10 + 4 * 40 + 80) / 4 = (20 + 70 + 160 + 80) / 4 = 330 / 4 = 82.5 dice per AP.
The first four GSS increase the dice pool by 7.5 dice per AP each, net, while each GSS after that increases the dice pool by 17.5.
So progression would be: 35 (140), 42.5 (170), 50 (200), 57.5 (230), 65 (260), 82.5 (330); 21.4%, 17.6%, 15.0%, 11.5%, 26.9%, 21.2%, etc.
Since we're currently full appraisal, we're allowed to use twenty stones per month, instead of sixteen stones per month. This means our 'baseline' is 20 YSS rather than sixteen. Those extra ten dice per AP are nothing to sneer at: 45 (180), 52.5 (210), 60 (240), 67.5 (270), 75 (300), 92.5 (370); 16.6%, 14.2%, 12.5%, 11.1%, 23.3%, 18.9%, etc.
As such, 16 YSS is as you think it should be, provided four AP are spent on the process: (Stones / 4) * AP invested.
And then we start adding GSS/month from there.
So someone using 15 YSS and 1 GSS would have: (4 * 5 + 11 * 10 + 40) / 4 = (20 + 110 + 40) / 4 = 170 / 4 = 42.5 dice per AP.
Oh, I think I see where the problem is. The first four GSS count as 40; every GSS after that counts as 80.
So using 14 YSS and two GSS would be (4 * 5 + 10 * 10 + 2 * 40) / 4 = (20 + 100 + 80) / 4 = 200 / 4 = 50 dice per AP, not sixty.
11 YSS and five GSS would be (4 * 5 + 7 * 10 + 4 * 40 + 80) / 4 = (20 + 70 + 160 + 80) / 4 = 330 / 4 = 82.5 dice per AP.
The first four GSS increase the dice pool by 7.5 dice per AP each, net, while each GSS after that increases the dice pool by 17.5.
So progression would be: 35 (140), 42.5 (170), 50 (200), 57.5 (230), 65 (260), 82.5 (330); 21.4%, 17.6%, 15.0%, 11.5%, 26.9%, 21.2%, etc.
Since we're currently full appraisal, we're allowed to use twenty stones per month, instead of sixteen stones per month. This means our 'baseline' is 20 YSS rather than sixteen. Those extra ten dice per AP are nothing to sneer at: 45 (180), 52.5 (210), 60 (240), 67.5 (270), 75 (300), 92.5 (370); 16.6%, 14.2%, 12.5%, 11.1%, 23.3%, 18.9%, etc.
Skipped the Math: The results you're getting are because the first four GSS per month are 40 dice each, and every GSS after the fourth adds 80, rather than the first GSS adds forty dice and every GSS after that adds 80.
There is another jump, but it comes later than you seem to be expecting and isn't as steep.
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- Location
- United States
Ah, yeah, Arkeus said "first GSS", I assume he meant to type "first 4 GSS" (EDIT: Arkeus was talking about per week, but I was doing math per month); I should have thought harder about how one to two is a weird transition place compared to yellow's four to five. Glad to hear the tutorial example is wrong and the "makes sense" version is correct. Also thanks for doing the math.
It's still weird that diminishing returns is "undone" into *increasing* returns from four to five since 0->1 is 21.4% while 4->5 is 26.9%, or 16.6%->23.3% in full appraisal, though it'll go back to normal fairly quickly (since there aren't further increases in value). Diminishing returns is just such a constant everywhere.
Uh, I believe that should be "twenty dice per month"? Or maybe "twenty dice rolls/mo" or "twenty soul stones/mo" or "twenty actions/mo"? Either way, twenty per week instead of four per week is too large an increase while twenty per month versus sixteen per month makes more sense.
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Yeah, it should be twenty stones per month, not dice per week. Fixed.
In part it is an attempt to preserve the system in the previous thread, which I never actually used myself, and simply update it to account for monthly turns instead of weekly turns.
I don't know what the fluff for it is; something about resonance between stones of the same type, maybe?
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Basically, 1GSS/week is usually 4GSS/turn, and turns are 'default' 4 weeks, but could be more in some exceptions, and in those cases we could use more stones per turn. Calculation for how many stones we can use is 'highest cultivation level for the quality' and 'lowest cultivation level for the quantity'. So, at Appraisal, we can use 2GSS (highest cultivation level is Green 2), and can use up to 5 stones (that's a bit more complicated because in that case we add up yellow and green levels, so 3+2, as we can use yellow stones too). This means 8GSS/12YSS.
Turn 6, we'll be Foundation Green/Appraisal Bronze, which means that we could use 3 GSS/week, but as our lowest cultivation level won't change we can still only use 5 total stone, so we'd have to use 3GSS/2YSS per week, for a total of 12GSS/8YSS per month.
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- Location
- scrabbling
You're arguing against me badly. In addition to...not really arguing against me and instead arguing against a general 'censorship is okay' position, if you want to highlight yrsillar's position then there is a much better, more definitive passage immediately prior to the one that you've picked out, when they call the destruction of information spiritually damaging ("spiritual wail" and "sickly fireflies" being the primary images of note related to the burning itself). This makes sense, because yrsillar is a modern person making modern judgements—FoD isn't really 'another world', it's a reflection of its creator's world. What I'm saying, isn't that the censorship is okay, but that the censorship is expected. "This is not the first burning of knowledge...and it won't be the last" is expressed in the update alongside the negative portrayal.
(Side note—of course it's happening in a restricted location. Sort of, if you count the back rock garden as restricted. Why would someone go to the trouble of hauling a bunch of scrolls out in public just to burn them? That's just making more work for yourself...they're burned here in the archive because it's convenient. Because it's "comfortable", if you take the rest of the update into account. They're burned now because the man's a cultivator of some stripe and doesn't sleep. He looks around suspiciously because the Dreaming Moon does some spiritual juju and he notices. There are reasons for these things and not all of them are automatically malicious.)
I'm a modern person too. We're mostly agreeing violently from my perspective. If you'll notice, I called information in FoD unfree, several times. Freedom is one of the most generically good things you can call up. Everyone in all of history claims to be a freedom fighter. I didn't feel the need to make some sandwich board with the equations 'free==good, unfree==bad' on it, but I guess that also isn't obvious...
yrsillar's world is the presentation of a world where information isn't free, a world which is rotting and about to explode into conflict. A young institution basing its power in technology aligns against royal and imperial state power. Old modes of social organization are stretched and insufficient. But a lot of what you're saying about libraries and information relies on the aftermath of the equivalent conflict IRL.
None of this becomes true until after the establishment of modern ideals. Right now in FoD, scholars like the Hidden and Dreaming Moon care about this event, but most people don't. And Ling Qi (that is, the voters) chose Cai. The creation of modernity is a main concern of the story, now. That means you have to see that most people don't care. It makes narrative sense for FoD to explain that most of FoD doesn't care about the ideology of information. (Even Ling Qi doesn't care. "It didn't bother her the way it seemed to bother Sixiang..." She responds to the 'waste' but much more weakly than someone ideologically offended.) You can apply FoD to understanding Europe in the 15th century or to China or to the vast country of Today or to any of the other places where people needed reform throughout history. It's fantasy, so it needs to show the ills and hurts of this world. And it hurts because this event is still possible and will always be possible. Even in our world where modernity is commonplace, premodern sentiments and attitudes exist and are almost as common.
It is not obvious and self-evident that information is free, to the extent that most of FoD's inhabitants assume that it is not free. So it's a need of FoD's/Ling Qi's/yrsillar's to show why information should be free. It's a need to answer the question of how we create a society where information is free, and people have the resources and willingness to make the kind of informed decision necessary to sustain that state of affairs. It's like...how do you build a car? It's not obvious. You have to build certain things before you arrive to a Volkswagen and then a Model-T and then...How do you build an information society? It can't be organized along the lines of the Celestial Empire. What's next? You can't skip straight to the 21st century internet. The processes of history that brought us here aren't guaranteed things, aren't facts of physics.
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Breakthroughs and meridians are the real 'dammit' gates of Talent, but it affects everything. Basically, as Ling Qi is Talent 6, this means that any roll under 6 succeed for cultivation. This means an average of 5/10. A talent 4, however, would have an average of 3/10. So 30 dice for us is equal to 50 dice for them.
Meridians are a big limit because you can't accrue successes for meridians. Either you succeed, or you fail. As an example, a Talent 6 like Ling Qi in red would roll something like Talent 6 + RSS 5 + AS 5 + Help 4 + Pills 3 = 23 dice for meridians with a good meridian cultivation art when in red. This would mean, for a Talent 6, around 12 successes. However, a Talent 4 would only have 21 dice and only around 6 successes. In Red, the first meridian cost 5 success, second 6, etc.
So, a Talent 4, which is already someone really talented for most noble clans, would have significant trouble opening more than 3/4 meridians in red, and that's with a lot of flat our failures and backlash.
[X] Songs and poems of peoples and ways of life long gone (Spirit Ken, Beast handling)
[X] Paintings, watercolors and tapestries depicting glories long gone (Art, War)
I'm picking these two purely because I feel they have the greatest chance of including works from or representing the Chu that may resonate with Ling Qi. Cause it'd be funny. Also, how great would it be to know a folk song relating some obscure event or cultural practice of the Chu that they themselves have lost to time? Sharing it with Chu Song would super mess with her, and in a way that isn't even mean or unkind!
One of my long term goals is to have Ling Qi enemies be personally uncomfortable with their enmity.
[X] Paintings, watercolors and tapestries depicting glories long gone (Art, War)
I'm picking these two purely because I feel they have the greatest chance of including works from or representing the Chu that may resonate with Ling Qi. Cause it'd be funny. Also, how great would it be to know a folk song relating some obscure event or cultural practice of the Chu that they themselves have lost to time? Sharing it with Chu Song would super mess with her, and in a way that isn't even mean or unkind!
One of my long term goals is to have Ling Qi enemies be personally uncomfortable with their enmity.
Froyo Baggins
Banned - Multiple accounts
- Location
- NYC
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[X] Historical Plays, works of wit and satire
Probably what they care most about censoring, and we could totally still use the social improvement. Might not have the "cool" factor of other choices but it'll help our life go along smoother and give us a better chance of actually stopping book burning etc as a practice in general.
Probably what they care most about censoring, and we could totally still use the social improvement. Might not have the "cool" factor of other choices but it'll help our life go along smoother and give us a better chance of actually stopping book burning etc as a practice in general.
- Location
- Staring into the void
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