To Establish Peace - A Romance of the Three Kingdoms Quest

[X] Plan Consolidated Bandit Killing Machine

I remain unconvinced as to the worth of armored scouts. Thus, this plan, in which that armor instead goes to the First Levy

[X] Plan Heavy Infantry Addition
-[X] Purchases
--[X] x375 Tier 1 Shields
--[X] x147 Tier 1 Armour
--[X] x58 Tier 1 Swords
--[X] x33 Tier 1 Axes
--[X] Steppe Bow (Quality I Gong)
-[X] Retainer Equipment
--[X] Liang Shu Equips Lunjian Bronze Cuirass
--[X] Bear Lord Armor to Yu Zhong
--[X] Steppe Bow to Cao Xing

-[X] Unit Reorganising
--[X] 1st Volunteer Infantry (83 men) and 2nd Volunteer Infantry (40 men) Restructure
---[X] Remove 83 Spears from 1st Volunteer Infantry
---[X] Create two units of 50. Name them 2nd & 3rd Archer Unit
---[X] 12 of the remaining 23 men to join the 1st Mounted Volunteers
---[X] 11 remaining men to join 2nd Mounted Volunteers
--[X] Rename 1st Volunteer Archers to 1st Archer Unit and Disarm 1st Archer Unit
---[X] x50 Swords removed
---[X] x50 Armour removed
--[X] Equip 1st Archer Unit
---[X] x50 Bludgeons
--[X] Equip 2nd Archer Unit
---[X] x50 Bows
---[X] x50 Bludgeons
--[X] Equip 3rd Archer Unit
---[X] x50 Bows
---[X] x50 Bludgeons
--[X] Equip Shangdang Sharpshooters
---[X] x100 Swords
--[X] Equip Shangdang Hunters
---[X] x10 Tier 1 Steeds
--[X] Equip Liang 1st Levy
---[X] x80 Tier 1 Swords
---[X] x80 Tier 1 Armor
--[X] Equip Liang 3rd Levy
---[X] x100 Tier 1 Shields
--[X] Equip Liang 4th Levy
---[X] x100 Tier 1 Shields
--[X] Equip 1st Mounted Volunteers
---[X] x63 Tier 1 Armour
---[X] x12 Tier 1 Swords
---[X] x12 Tier 1 Spears
---[X] x12 Tier 1 Steeds
--[X] Equip 2nd Mounted Volunteers
---[X] x62 Tier 1 Armour
---[X] x11 Tier 1 Swords
---[X] x11 Tier 1 Spears
---[X] x11 Tier 1 Steeds
--[X] Equip 150 of the First Refugee Unit with Crossbows and rename 1st Crossbow Unit.
---[X] x150 Crossbows.
---[X] x95 Spears
---[X] x55 Bludgeons
--[X] Combine remaining 34 men from First Refugee Unit with Gong Family Volunteers and rename 1st Infantry Unit.
---[X] Remove x50 Tier 1 Swords
---[X] Equip 1st Infantry Unit with x34 Tier 1 Shields (they have 50 already)
---[X] Equip 1st Infantry Unit with x84 Spears
--[X] Equip 100 Second Refugee Unit with Tier 1 Axes and Shields and name 2nd Infantry Unit
---[X] x100 Tier 1 Axes
---[X] x100 Tier 1 Shields
--[X] Equip 96 Second Refugee Unit with Tier 1 Axes and Shields and name 3rd Infantry Unit
---[X] x96 Tier 1 Axes
---[X] x96 Tier 1 Shields
-[X] [Strategist]
--[X] Yu Zhong
-[X] [Sub-Officers]
--[X] Zhu Fang
--[X] Lu Lingqui
--[X] Zhang Liao
--[X] Mu Shun
--[X] Cao Xing
--[X] Gong Su
-[X] [Units]
--[X] All Units except Lady Ce Xiang's Bodyguards
-[X] [Surplus]
--[X] 15 Tier 1 Steads
--[X] 200 Wealth

[X] Plan Heavy Infantry Addition

I agree, all armour should go to frontliners or people who actually fight in the main battle.

copypastaanon said:

[X] Plan Heavy Infantry Addition

I agree, all armour should go to frontliners or people who actually fight in the main battle.

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Only given the current foe though. If we were against an enemy army with organized archers then giving armor to ours would be my number one priority, but these are bandits hordes.

[X] Plan Consolidated Bandit Killing Machine

Where are you guys getting Quality I Mounts from for your retainers? You don't have any in your inventory, and you didn't buy any.

Gaz said:

Where are you guys getting Quality I Mounts from for your retainers? You don't have any in your inventory, and you didn't buy any.

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I think they mean the regular steeds that our cavalry uses.

[X] Plan Heavy Infantry Addition

Kolekzionera said:

I think they mean the regular steeds that our cavalry uses.

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This. I was assuming they become generic quality in the hands of characters.

You can assume your retainers already have generic steeds, so no need to "spend" that equipment on them.

Removed from my plan then. I'll add them to whatever [] Plan Consolidated Bandit Killing Machine does with them.

[X] Plan Heavy Infantry Addition

Gaz said:

You can assume your retainers already have generic steeds, so no need to "spend" that equipment on them.

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Thanks Gaz, good to know.

When I logged off last night Darklight and the others who expressed opinions had basically already convinced me that switching the armour to the Infantry was a good idea. Honestly, I was kinda hoping for a bit more feedback overnight but of those of you who expressed an opinion (not many ) the majority seems to be for armour on the Infantry.

I'm sorry for anyone who's voted for the plan that this annoys but I'm going to make the change. With the Hunters given Steeds to act as a scouting force and the obvious need of the Infantry, compared to the potential need of the Sharpshooters, it just doesn't make sense to me to leave the armour on the Sharpshooters.

No rush on the plan, won't be able to write til about Tuesday anyway

Sharpshooters have armor, I imagine, because they don't have Shields, and skill at archery is hard to train, while skill with a crossbow is easy.

There's going to be lots of archers everyone expects, so having either a shield or good armor is key to avoiding them just roflstomping, given how the weapons list explicitly said that archers vs unarmored/unshielded targets just wrecks them.

Alectai said:

Sharpshooters have armor, I imagine, because they don't have Shields, and skill at archery is hard to train, while skill with a crossbow is easy.

There's going to be lots of archers everyone expects, so having either a shield or good armor is key to avoiding them just roflstomping, given how the weapons list explicitly said that archers vs unarmored/unshielded targets just wrecks them.

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Meanwhile, whereas all of our infantry and cavalry have armour/and/or shields, theirs have none, and we only just introduced our forces to Ranged Weapons en mass, so they don't have time to update their info on our capabilities, which they no doubt have. They won't be able to adjust for the sudden force shift.

Looking at previous battles, even if our 300+ Heavy Cavalry on a flat plain don't just run them over, they'll be unarmored vs ranged weaponry being used by non-green troops.

Ironically they may have lost the ranged advantage, one of their only one ups on us, entirely.

[X] Plan Heavy Infantry Addition

McLuvin said:

Meanwhile, whereas all of our infantry and cavalry have armour/and/or shields, theirs have none, and we only just introduced our forces to Ranged Weapons en mass, so they don't have time to update their info on our capabilities, which they no doubt have. They won't be able to adjust for the sudden force shift.

Looking at previous battles, even if our 300+ Heavy Cavalry on a flat plain don't just run them over, they'll be unarmored vs ranged weaponry being used by non-green troops.

Ironically they may have lost the ranged advantage, one of their only one ups on us, entirely.

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It's debatable whether our force even qualifies as Heavy Cavalry to be honest, basic armor, a sidearm and a spear are what you'd expect from a skirmisher unit--Heavy Cavalry would include a shield, horse armor, and so forth. That being said, we've got a lot of archers now, and Horse Archers require a critical mass to hit that point where they curbstomp literally everyone--and I seriously doubt these bandits have 3-4 times the number of our own archers as Horse Archers.

Because if it becomes an "I shoot, you shoot" thing, the added speed of the horse archer to make them better able to avoid fire is counterbalanced by the increased difficulty of shooting what you're aiming at, and horses can only gallop for so long before they literally drop dead.

Alectai said:

It's debatable whether our force even qualifies as Heavy Cavalry to be honest. That being said, we've got a lot of archers now, and Horse Archers require a critical mass to hit that point where they curbstomp literally everyone--and I seriously doubt these bandits have 3-4 times the number of our own archers as Horse Archers.

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With a 1.5-3k large bandit force, they should have some *elites. Their best troops should tend towards mounted and better equipment, but what loadout would we predict? Horse archers, light cav or heavy cav? Maybe bifunctional horse archers/lancers due to the proximity of the steppe barbarians.



*values of elites may include troops that are merely skilled or regular

Even an 'Elite' bandit force is still going to be poorly equipped, just because maintenence of your best dudes is expensive. The absolute highest we should ever see is Veteran ranking, and that only in the personal guard of the Chiefs.

I would say, on average, bandits are generally going to be using swords and shields, they don't want spears because if they're in a pitched battle on even terrain (Where spears shine), they've already fucked up. They'll have good use of bows--and the ones who are lucky enough to have a mount as well are going to be horse archers.

Thing about horse archers though, is that you need a certain critical mass for them to become the unstoppable gods of war they were in the pre-gunpowder era, because horses have garbage stamina compared to humans, and you need to have enough horse archers that you can always have one echelon cycle-strafing, while the others are letting their mounts rest until the first one gets tired, and then continuing on. And you can't dilute it to the point where they get mowed down by a good volley or two by unmounted archers either, so to get away with the "Mounted archers kill everyone forever" strategy, you pretty much need to go all in on that strategy, and have at least comparable numbers to the ones you're using it on.

And the thing is, mounted archers are hard to train and equip. Steppe Nomads did it because it was a winning strategy, and there's plenty of grazing land for their mounts in their home territories--but even then, they needed to horde up to become the unstoppable tide--and that kind of thing only lasts until they get stuck, and then they eat their surroundings into wasteland and disperse for better pastures.

Bandits... Really can't support a horse archery cadre of the size needed to pull this off against anything but the smallest targets, which are fights that'll be resolved fast in the first place. No doubt they'll have a tough core of this super unit, but they have to use it as an auxillary rather than their main strategy, simply because the logistics don't work for them to have built up that critical mass of horse archers while also being in secret.

No, their main strategy is probably going to be blade and bow infantry, inexpensive but powerful units against unprepared or disorganized forces--but at a serious disadvantage against a trained and organized fighting force.

HastyGaming said:

Thanks Gaz, good to know.

When I logged off last night Darklight and the others who expressed opinions had basically already convinced me that switching the armour to the Infantry was a good idea. Honestly, I was kinda hoping for a bit more feedback overnight but of those of you who expressed an opinion (not many ) the majority seems to be for armour on the Infantry.

I'm sorry for anyone who's voted for the plan that this annoys but I'm going to make the change. With the Hunters given Steeds to act as a scouting force and the obvious need of the Infantry, compared to the potential need of the Sharpshooters, it just doesn't make sense to me to leave the armour on the Sharpshooters.

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Maybe leave your plan as is and just vote for mine,in the interest of democracy?

Alectai said:

Sharpshooters have armor, I imagine, because they don't have Shields, and skill at archery is hard to train, while skill with a crossbow is easy.

There's going to be lots of archers everyone expects, so having either a shield or good armor is key to avoiding them just roflstomping, given how the weapons list explicitly said that archers vs unarmored/unshielded targets just wrecks them.

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Why would they have a lot of archers? That requires expensive bows+well-trained troops. Crossbows seems much more likely.

Because hunters also use bows?

Like, it's hard to learn archery as a military unit, but actually just learning to shoot things isn't super hard--and hunting bows are a fairly common thing too.

And bandits tend to start as hunters, peasants, and military deserters.

Beyond that? Well, we already knew that at least one of the overlords is fond of surprise arrowstorms, it's what killed Liang Shu's father after all.

If we will almost be certainly gaining loot through battle and can generate wealth from estate actions, do we really need to be so stingy with our equipment purchases? Spring 3 and a possible mansion upgrade are months away, but a pitched battle is going to happen right now. I would rather have a bunch of living adept quality units with armor and an emptier purse than overflowing coffers and a pile of dead unarmored dudes with wasted training.

Edit: The QM rated this "Insightful." Please consider my plan below.

GAZman said:

If we will almost be certainly gaining loot through battle and can generate wealth from estate actions, do we really need to be so stingy with our equipment purchases? Spring 3 and a possible mansion upgrade are months away, but a pitched battle is going to happen right now. I would rather have a bunch of living adept quality units with armor and an emptier purse than overflowing coffers and a pile of dead unarmored dudes with wasted training.

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Make a plan called "in it to win it" that's a xerox of Hasty's plan, with armor added for 200-400 infantry.

So what's the plan for the future?

Are we on the side of Empress He? Or should we just do our own thing to make sure the eunuchs are killed?

If we fail to stop him and we still have positive relations with Dong maybe we should stick around so we can pick up the imperial seal?



Also what special abilities would Shu have if he was in Total War?

For now I want to continue being on Dong Zhuo's 'side' until he starts acting ultra evil (should take a few years if we go by the OTL) or our debt is paid since he has been very helpful to us.