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It probably helped that Urth, you know, actually did diplomacy instead of staying in her forest forever to the point where they are just known as Demons (cough talking about us cough)
Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
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None of this really addresses the dominant issue: how do we beat this guy long term? As far as I can see we can't. At this point Urth had every reason to not become a god, and there is only a chance becoming a god actually inconveniences him. Also he has made his career though thumbing his nose at our gods and I've seen no evidence that they can act directly against him. Urth is also all about power leaving a civ around not subjugated that can challenge him is not something I see happening long term.
The diplo nuts would say make peace and gather allies and then prepare and attack him again but with his diplo hero daughter and the fact that he can just run away and revive means we are presumably never gonna be able to actually kill him barring some truly fantastic divine intervention that we have yet to see ever. Also since the time he got his daughter he outclasses us diplomatically and should be able to stop any new alliances from forming.
As I said the Dice Gods are our only hope because narratively Urth wins every time long term. Basically we're relying on some hail mary war that somehow successfully exterminates not only Urth but all his daughters.
We are now eternally outclassed in martial, diplo, and mystic, except for singular generations where we could luck out into one hero, and this disadvantage can grow.
Also I just reread Urth's blessing and the only disadvantage (that only women can have it) can apparently be corrected by capturing a male member of our royal line (something that over time I would expect to happen) and said disadvantage is one that I think is entirely neglible. It can't be that hard for a bunch of immortal elven women to leave the forest occasionally and kidnap a bunch of men to just exponentially grow their ranks or just infect more women.
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Well granted not even trying to reach out to the lowlands more was likely a major mistake, part of me saying he's got the lowlands gated was in essence saying that anything to the south a la in the Maradysh's taboo would be more likely to run into Urth then into us unless we blobbed Urth, and as far as I can tell, Urth's reigion had lots of fighting and until the Boars&Merntir came, we really didn't have the martial to play that game back then, or so we thought. Might have been mistaken, though, and we could very well have gotten involved once we knew there was two sides to pick from.
Also according to discord Urth's had his heroic daughter for multiple turns operating in the lowlands so any diplo options there, are and were not possible.
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KleverKil'Vanya
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Well this was kinda the obvious path, after all an immortal unkillable race of demigods is going to cause us to get fucked for a very long time as we get repeatedly stomped when dealing with them, allowing Oshha to dial up or down their power as we get to powerful or too weak. We might be able to expand after the medieval age if he's feeling generous when Urth has diplo-annexed everyone around us and we can't tempt any of the poor ignorant peasants away from worship of the great Urth...
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Some of the problem, is Urth is working really fast compared to us. The players cannot attack Urth, the players cannot build up to attack Urth.
Urth perfectly gets a diplo hero, successfully seems to only be in conflict with only the Arthwyd, appears to not be paralyzed in inaction, seems to have made tremendous progress on a project that costs nothing, oh and seems to be able to rebuild his/her forces as fast as the narative demands.
What can we do to kill Urth before Urth 'wins'?
[X] [SEC] Settle Land = Greenbay
[X] [SEC] War Party = Barbarian Maradysh
[X] [SEC] War Party = Barbarian Maradysh
Since we currently lack a martial hero (unless I missed something) there is little reason to engage in a war with Urth. Realistically we don't really stand a chance against Urth without a hero or some kind of divine intervention. Plus stability going low could actually cause our civ to collapse so I think its highly advisable to venerate the goddesses this turn over martial intervention which will barring some unbelievable rolls simply get us wrecked by Urth if he decides to take the field.
At this point I'm just kind of impressed by Urth and am actually surprised this guy is only hero tier. Shouldn't messing with a Goddess's blessing require you to be genius tier? I mean he copied the blessing with his own immortality thrown in(by his own words its equal or better than ours) and would have had a perfect blessing if he had a guy with the royal bloodline since the only disadvantage is its female only restriction. This is some actual bonkers level of mystic ability, AND he self revived after dying. I don't think a single one of our heroes or even the boarfolk martial genius comes close to Urth.
You forget he has got his diplo hero daughter.
At this point I'm just kind of impressed by Urth and am actually surprised this guy is only hero tier. Shouldn't messing with a Goddess's blessing require you to be genius tier? I mean he copied the blessing with his own immortality thrown in(by his own words its equal or better than ours) and would have had a perfect blessing if he had a guy with the royal bloodline since the only disadvantage is its female only restriction. This is some actual bonkers level of mystic ability, AND he self revived after dying. I don't think a single one of our heroes or even the boarfolk martial genius comes close to Urth.
You forget he has got his diplo hero daughter.
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- Somewhere
The winning vote is to stop the Marydysh civil war the diplo hero started, and not lose stability from failing to build another settlement.
Good plan, I'm just in the give up while spending the turn fighting to kill Urth phase, because Urth has won if the diplo hero alone can keep the arthwyd occupied costing Urth no resources and only 1 action out of what feels like 5 actions per turn for Urth.
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KleverKil'Vanya
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It's the same shit as PoC author fiat Barbarian Horde managing to nuke through the PC Civ during timeskip so that AN could force everything into the shape he wanted for PoI.
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Don't blame the QM for your mistakes.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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You can blame the GM for inconsistent storytelling.
Take the Maradysh and their value, for example. Supposedly, they have the death penalty for everyone who comes from the South, and everyone who even voices the idea of going there..
However, this was never once mentioned before. It wasn't mentioned when :
1) We considered sending scouts to the South
2) We actually send an army to the South
3) Urth's daughters arrived from the South
4) We considered demanding the return of Urth's daughters, born in the South
5) We considered vassalizing Urth's civilization, present in the South
6) We were offered tamed animals from the lowlands in the South
It's handled completely inconsistently, popping into existence when it's convenient for Urth, and being effortlessly vanquished when it's no longer convenient. In one instance, the Maradysh act like complete zealotic idiots (don't scare people away, go straight to murder). In the other, they're suddenly extremely laid back about this supposedly massive taboo.
It really comes off as something the GM retconned in because he needed to hand Urth a win.
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Well what would had stopped Urth to create even more failsafes when peace ends, or to gain even more influence among Maradysh and Lowlanders.
Basically to put it simply while peace would had been useful it would had lead to same outcome , we would had been stronger but Urth would had been stronger as well.
And the more time passes the more immortal heros he has.
And i really don't understand this as well, personification of devil comes and offers you peace, has kidnapped Cadlon boddy and killed many of your people , we have value that is forcing us to go to war and to avenge our people, Urth and his daughters ploted a civil war yet here Arthwyd are mad at Cadlon and priests for refusing.
It doesn't make any sense, it's like you are basically punishing us for refusing peace offer.
Add to it that now Urth litteraly has immortal heros at his side.
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Why would it have to be mentioned when we send people to, or people came from, the Forest to the West? South refers to the Lowlands. This was already pointed out to you in the Discord Chat....
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You did not seriously think that the Arthwyd could contend with the will of Urth? There are none who can. Against the power of the Cursed Forest, there can be no victory. We must join with him. We must join with Urth. It would be wise, my friends.
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I actually agree with that, he is literally op. Better to have him as god and his immortal daughters to help us.
Combine that with our civ and we are untouchable.
Basically guy is set to win and become a god anyway, better to have him on our side and spare ourselves from throwing away resources to try and do impossible.
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No.
First of all, she didn't to it all at once. It was started in the update that while the Arthwyd didn't notice until now, Urth almost certainly began planning it this and laying the groundwork for it before now. I expected the players to figure out that yes, she had preparing for it as it should be clear by now that Urth is a planner type of ruler.
1) The half which paid lip service while the half which has properly converted to the Arthrynite pantheon is firmly against Urth.
2) Those values were already there. Urth just took advantage of them using a couple turns of diplomacy. =
3) It was never relevant before and nobody has asked about the Maradysh values except in the discord. I can't put every last bit of detail into the updates. If you want to know stuff like the values of your vassals or allies, you need to ask for this extra info like some have. It got mentioned in the discord because it got asked there and if you want it to be brought up in the thread, you need to ask about this stuff in the thread.
4) She only did it for half of them and that was via using diplomacy and facts to eliminate a fragile taboo that was based on superstitions lacked factual basis. You would have had to have done the same thing yourself when you tried to explore or trade with the lowlands. As for not killing them because they came from the south, it is because they came from the west instead because Urth knew about their taboo.
5) That as an alliance formed between two friendly states against a mutual enemy. Urth just engineering the friendliness and the hostilities.
6) The Maradysh taboo has been brought up before when @KlinkerKing asked me about why the Maradysh hadn't explored the lowlands. It has been a thing since the Maradysh formed since it was the debilitating belief that their culture formed around. However the players never asked about that sort of thing except in the discord so it didn't come up in the thread until it was relevant, which is to say now when Urth exploited it to her benefit.
Furthermore, if you predicted that Urth would exploit the Maradysh culture to turn at least some of them against the Arthwyd if you rejected her peace offer, why did you voted for that outcome. You claim that you were one of the posters that figured out that this would happen and yet you never mentioned during the previous vote
As already noted in the thread, Urth has a Diplo Hero who is immortal. She has had her for a trio of updates now and while there are concerns about her being too overpowered and me not nerfing immortal heroes, but I would like to point out that I already did the nerfing a few update ago when Urth got her.
This is because I already realised the concerns expressed by the thread after this update regarding immortal Heroes back then and have already nerfed immortal Heroes so that they aren't too overpowered and result in the civ automatically just rolling over all opposition over time.
1) You never considered sending scouts to the south.
2) You never actually send an army to the south of the Maradysh, just to the south of your own territory.
3) Urth's Daughters arrived from the west because Urth knew about the taboo from when she infiltrated the Maradysh.
4 & 5) The Caradysh are located in the Cursed Forest, which may be to the south of the Arthwyd, but it is also to the west of the Maradysh (as shown in the last map).
As I mention above in the post, this
debilitating belief
regarding the lowlands is one of the oldest parts of the Maradysh. It just never come up before in the updates until now and no one has asked about it apart from in the discord and none of the players in the discord bothered to mention it in the thread or raise the subject in the thread.I cannot put every last detail in the update so I mainly keep to what is relevant to the update when it comes to the details. If you want to know other stuff such as what you know of your vassal's culture or what sort or relationships your vassals have or what they think of other foreign entities, then you need to ask about those things and if you want that information in the thread, then ask about them in the thread and not the discord or get the people in the discord to share answers they get in the discord with the rest of the thread.
The thing is the players seem to be against both getting more information or sharing what information you do have. I don't just mean in-universe where you don't explore or trade or otherwise try to get more information on the lands around you, but the players rarely ask for more information in the thread as they seem to just go with the directly relevant information in the updates. Some people do ask questions in the discord and I answer them there, but those posters then decide not to share that information in the thread itself.
Frankly, it comes off to me that you and others can't be bothered to actually care enough about this information to try and find it out and would rather complain that when it comes up in a negative fashion. Neither you nor anyone else in the thread have never asked about what the Maradysh think of the lowlands or why they haven't explored the lowlands. If you had done that, you would have know beforehand. But hey, it is easier to complain that the QM is being unfair and inconsistent and retconning things so why not just do that instead.
And this idea is stupid as not only it is trying to blame the QM for player actions, but it also ignores the fact that multiple posters actually predicted this outcome if you rejected the peace offer and yet the thread voted for rejecting peace and continuing the war.
Some posters figured out from the clues that I left that Urth would try to turn the Maradysh against you by exploiting their culture if you decided to continue the war (through only @Somebodynobody10 actually mentioned it in the thread and not just the discord). And look at what Urth did. She did exactly as some posters were able to figure out on their own during the previous vote and somehow that is authorial fiat to screw over the players because clearly a predictable negative result of a choice made by the players is the QM's fault and not the majority of posters voting for outcome that had this negative consequences that some players were able to figure out.
Since the majority of the players are incapable of figuring this out on their own and just want to complain when things don't go their way. I'm going to explain it to you guys.
1) The Caradysh are bigger than the Arthwyd as they have a similar culture to the lowlanders and like the lowlanders, they have chosen to build wide and not tall. Because of this, they have been able to do more than you.
2) Urth is a planner and thanks to being immortal, they will spend a few updates putting together a plan and take multiple actions over multiple updates before making their play. When she stole Morbyn's body? That took multiple turns and actions to set up where Urth infiltrated the Maradysh to learn about them and the Arthwyd, came up with counter-measures needed to successfully take the body of one of the royal family and steal the blessings and get away before finally committing once they had finished preparing, which including preparing a trap for the inevitable follow-up attack by the Arthwyd. Creating their own blessing? Spent multiple turns and actions both acquiring examples of foreign magics in addition to studying magic to under the foreign magics so he could integrate them with his own magic to create her blessing. Sending the peace offer? Spend a turn setting things up in the Maradysh and the lowlands so that if you rejected her offer, she could do what she did, including setting things to both take advantage of the Maradysh taboo and then break it before it caused her troubles. If you had accepted the offer, then she would have had friendly relations with the lowlanders and Maradysh to make use of, including the groundwork to break the Maradysh taboo regarding the lowlands.
3) Urth is thrown off by the unexpected and needs time to prepare their plans. Urth is at their most dangerous when they do things on their own terms as only make their move when they got everything ready. Catch them by surprise or force their hand while they are still preparing and Urth isn't nearly as competent. So far, you have been dealing with Urth on her terms and only reacting to her once she has gotten everything ready and her triggered events on terms favourable to her.
4) You don't ask for information except in the discord. I don't put everything in the updates as that would be too much work for me. You want to know stuff that I haven't mentioned in the updates, you need to ask me for it if you want to know it before it becomes relevant. I will happily answer questions in either the thread or the discord, but if I do in the discord, it is up to your fellow posters to share the information in the thread.
5) You don't know anything about the Caradysh. You don't know the size of the Caradysh or what sort are like or what their defences are like or what sort of relations they have with other civs. You don't know their relationships with the lowlands such as how many allies they have or how much of the lowlands they directly rule over or what sort of enemies they have down there.
6) The Arthwyd are unreliable narrators and have biased perspectives. They think they are superior to the 'barbarians' around them regardless of whether that is actually the case. They view Urth and the Caradysh as super-evil beyond the norm, but other civs may not share that same viewpoint. They think of themselves as kind and benevolent, but don't consider the fact that they may not be from the perspective of another culture
7) Stop making assumptions about things. People have assumed that the Arthwyd dealt the Caradysh heavy damage and have left them weak so that is why they are suing for peace. People have assumed that the Caradysh would approach the Maradysh from the south and not the west. People have assumed the Maradysh taboo about the lowlands was hard to break when its very nature meant it was brittle and would break quickly once you started to crack it.
8) To get more actions, you need to either expand or reach the Bronze Age to upgrade your government type. I didn't want to say this outright, but nobody has gotten my hints so here we are.
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Diplo OP, but that's normal.
Should've gone with Decentralization, so what if we'd fight eachother once in a while....